Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[FullMoon]

Thanks for the input guys, just some things I'd like some clarification on:

Hydro Pump to gimp our recovery is a good tactic, but just remember we can recover in more than one way: Arms' horizontal momentum is a good option, and we're invincible while we use it. Bear in mind that a good Pit will be used to mixing up their recovery, so it's not as easy to gimp as you'd think!

I did forget about the arms for recovering, but there's something about it that I want to ask about: does it always snap to the ledge or can it leave them vulnerable to an attack? I've Pit hit my shield while trying to recover with the arm before and that allowed me to get a punish and the kill, so I wanted to know more about it.

Pit has the neutral b advantage against greninja but side b advantage for dark pit. Yet it is great for Pit with his arrows. Be careful with you nair spacing because we can punish that fairly easy with jab, f smash, d smash, if you spot dodge side b, and so on. Just a little bit of add on info. This matchup is very even. Just be careful, Dark Pit may not be able to control his arrows as well but he can short hop them. Keep that in mind

I don't see how Dark Pit has the better Arm. Pit's allows him to kill Greninja from anywhere on stage at a reasonable percentage while Dark Pit heavily depends on where Greninja is and can take longer to kill. Sending Greninja offstage doesn't even make much of a difference because Dark Pit's arrows are a lot easier to navigate through than Pit's and so he has a much harder time edgeguarding us efficiently

I think the arrows are such a big deal in the MU that Dark Pit's being so unflexible could put him in disadvantage against Greninja compared to Pit.

 

[ephOE]

I would only Hydro Pump the Pits' recovery if they come from a more horizontal angle. If they come at the ledge more vertically, or aim into the stage to autocorrect the ledge, Greninja can quickly attempt to ledge trump. Or you can do a run-off Bair.

The Pits' pretty much have to recover low so they don't miss their ledge snap. Even with platforms, they can't do much to safely land. The Pits' have pretty poor aerial momentum (I guess it has something to do with how their "wings don't work right"?).

They can also Side B to the stage, but that can take time to line up and if they go above the ledge you can block it for a variety of punishes. Hydro Pump will also stop Up B from going any further - Pit gets a little vertical boost but then enters a bit of recovery before being able to act again.

Pit's recovery is honestly awful and should be challenged.

 

[Fujiwara]

I don't see how Dark Pit has the better Arm. Pit's allows him to kill Greninja from anywhere on stage at a reasonable percentage while Dark Pit heavily depends on where Greninja is and can take longer to kill. Sending Greninja offstage doesn't even make much of a difference because Dark Pit's arrows are a lot easier to navigate through than Pit's and so he has a much harder time edgeguarding us efficiently

The electro-arm can launch you outside the stage while Pits normal arm just launch you upwards. Depending where you're currently are (outside the stage, edge, under the stage) it can be a real pain in the ass. But fortunately it makes Dark Pit a bit more readable because he can't annoy you as much as Pit with his arrows.

 

[Wintropy]

I did forget about the arms for recovering, but there's something about it that I want to ask about: does it always snap to the ledge or can it leave them vulnerable to an attack? I've Pit hit my shield while trying to recover with the arm before and that allowed me to get a punish and the kill, so I wanted to know more about it.

No, it doesn't always snap to the ledge. The ledge has a sweetspot that we have to hit to auto-snap: too low and we won't make it, too high and we'll dash into the ledge for a few frames before snapping.

Occasionally we will try to side-b right into you if you're trying to edgeguard us, though this is an incredibly risky tactic. You can easily shield it and force us into our "uppercut" animation, where we're vulnerable until the animation ends, and even if we do hit, aerial side-b is nowhere near as strong a KO option as grounded side-b.

 

[FullMoon]

The electro-arm can launch you outside the stage while Pits normal arm just launch you upwards. Depending where you're currently are (outside the stage, edge, under the stage) it can be a real pain in the ***. But fortunately it makes Dark Pit a bit more readable because he can't annoy you as much as Pit with his arrows.

Isn't trying to edgeguard with the arm really risky because of the years of end lag it has? I can only see it being very good at the ledge, which compared to Pit being able to kill anywhere in the stage with it makes it look worse in the long run.

No, it doesn't always snap to the ledge. The ledge has a sweetspot that we have to hit to auto-snap: too low and we won't make it, too high and we'll dash into the ledge for a few frames before snapping.

Occasionally we will try to side-b right into you if you're trying to edgeguard us, though this is an incredibly risky tactic. You can easily shield it and force us into our "uppercut" animation, where we're vulnerable until the animation ends, and even if we do hit, aerial side-b is nowhere near as strong a KO option as grounded side-b.

So there's some risk in trying to recover with Side-B, which also makes me wonder if Hydro Pump can mess it up too or if the arm is actually going to reflect the water. Though that also might be bad depending on the distance because it could make Pit stop short, maybe?

 

[Wintropy]

Isn't trying to edgeguard with the arm really risky because of the years of end lag it has? I can only see it being very good at the ledge, which compared to Pit being able to kill anywhere in the stage with it makes it look worse in the long run.

There's technically the ledge-cancel tech. It's essentially Zelda / Palutena's warp ledge-cancel tech with the Arm, which helps Pit follow-up from Arm immediately.

I don't think it's very useful, honestly. You can theoretically use it to chase the opponent off-stage without concern for the "years of end lag", though it's just as easy to run and shorthop side-b if you're gonna do it.

So there's some risk in trying to recover with Side-B, which also makes me wonder if Hydro Pump can mess it up too or if the arm is actually going to reflect the water. Though that also might be bad depending on the distance because it could make Pit stop short, maybe?

I'm not too sure. Does the water flow count as a tangible object?

If so, it would scupper Pit's recovery and force him to drop.

If it doesn't and Pit just dashes through it (which he can with certain "trivial" hitboxes like Fox's lasers and windboxes), then Pit would just keep dashing and it'd be kinda useless.

It definitely warrants further study. I'd be up for testing it out if you want to do some scientific research~? :3

 

[bc1910]

Okay guys, I'm more than aware it's not Wario week so I'm sorry for posting this at this time, but I didn't know where else to post this since it would be off topic in most of our threads like the social, and our Q&A is pretty dead. This is a copy and paste from a post I made in the Wario Q&A section that I wanted to put here as well because you guys might be able to help me too.

------------------------------

I need serious, serious help against Wario. I simply cannot beat a good one. It's getting to the point where I would rather fight a good Sonic than a good Wario because I feel I have more of a chance. Yeah, it's that bad.

I main Greninja and am keen to learn the MU with him. Customs off. Here are my main problems.

• Wario is so. ****ing. Safe. He seems basically unapproachable in the air and unpunishable in everything he does. I was literally playing this guy, reading him perfectly (like I could say to myself "here comes the rising Fair, a jump, now a Nair or fastfall empty land into shield) and I couldn't do a thing. I just don't know what to do. It seemed like I was never able to punish, or rather Wario is always able to weave out of my punishment range and punish me for trying to hit him.
• On the ground Wario is not so bad, however he seems to be able to transition seamlessly between throwing crap out in the air and shielding on the ground. Whenever I try to punish him oop, at some point he landed and is now shielding so I'm gonna get grabbed. I have no idea where the windows of punishment are for this character.
• Dash attack is really annoying. The guaranteed trip + tech chase gets me down. Wario launches himself really far at the start of the move so it's really easy to get hit by. Blocking works against it but I'm covering my issues with blocking later.
• Shurikens are invalidated completely by the bike. They may as well not exist. I thought not using shurikens might be the key to the MU but he continued to just wall me out in the air.
• Wario cannot be juggled. His air speed is too good and chomp just beats stuff. I do not know how to abuse his disadvantaged state.
• On a lot of moves, his damage per hit is really high. On the rare occasion that I did get a juggle off, a couple of Bairs and Dairs later and I'm back to square one, or probably behind in damage.
• Shielding can actually be good against him, and Wario can't kill a shielding opponent until high percent with Fthrow, however Greninja is not a character who wants to be sitting in shield. Also Wario can keep safe even when hitting a shield, either with spaced aerials or just driving into me with the bike repeatedly. You cannot sit in shield hoping he does something punishable, because a) he doesn't have to and b) quite simply, this game doesn't have infinite block.
• Killing is not a problem because of waft. Even the near-full charge version that he gets after like 90 seconds kills well at over 100%. He can also kill with the bike (why?) and various aerials and tilts.
• Wario is nigh unkillable, with a fantastic recovery and high weight.
• This character seems like he has no weaknesses.

Stuff I'm actually okay with:

• I don't find his edgeguarding tough to deal with. It's good, but his traps with Bite + throwing the bike up are generally reactable and avoidable. Greninja has a very flexible recovery anyway, he can Hydro Pump over Wario's head if necessary and usually get away with it, especially if Wario is holding the bike.
• I don't have too much of a problem with Bite in general, I generally know when it's coming and its poor range often lets it down. I don't get hit by it really apart from the occasional B-reverse.
• I don't mind fully charged waft too much. I know the hit confirms and I can generally avoid getting hit by the thing, I can count the number of times I've been cheesed by a 40% waft kill on one hand. However the next level of charge down is pretty effective and I get hit by that more often. He also can store that version up more easily.

tl;dr Wario is so safe, he seems totally unpunishable in everything he does in the air and he doesn't have to do punishable stuff on the ground. Every attempt to punish him results in him weaving away and punishing my attempt, or fastfalling into shield and grabbing me. I cannot hit the ******.

Any help here is much appreciated.

--------------------------------

Yeah. I hate Wario so much. He is my worst MU personally by far, yet I get other Greninja players telling me we go around even and I just don't know why. I can barely hit him, when I do it doesn't amount to much, and when I get hit I eat big chunks of damage because his damager per hit is high. I really need some pointers here. Once again, sorry that this is off our weekly characters.

 

[FullMoon]

It definitely warrants further study. I'd be up for testing it out if you want to do some scientific research~? :3

Well I'm not against playing with you (there's likely going to be some lag due to distance tho) but I just did some testing myself with my sister.

Pit does reflect the water, but he also does the uppercut automatically after it, which sends him flying and leaves him wide open for punishment.

So Hydro Pump screws up with both of his recoveries, in both cases leaving him wide open for a strong Smash attack to finish him off.

@ bc1910 I can't give you much help in that department, as I have very little experience with Wario myself (I don't find him -that- bad though) but have you tried asking the Wario boards for help? They would know the character better than us and probably would be able to help tell you his shortcomings and what you should do.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah, I posted in their Q&A section first, as I said this is just a copypaste from there. I posted there first since I thought the same as you, they might be able to help me with his shortcomings.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh. I didn't read that part, whoops.

But yeah I don't think I'll be able to give much help there. I hate fighting Wario myself so I kinda avoid Wario players if I can, he didn't feel as bad as you made him out to be whenever I did play one and I can't exactly tell why, but I can understand your struggle.

 

[ephOE]

Okay guys, I'm more than aware it's not Wario week so I'm sorry for posting this at this time, but I didn't know where else to post this since it would be off topic in most of our threads like the social, and our Q&A is pretty dead. This is a copy and paste from a post I made in the Wario Q&A section that I wanted to put here as well because you guys might be able to help me too.

------------------------------

I need serious, serious help against Wario. I simply cannot beat a good one. It's getting to the point where I would rather fight a good Sonic than a good Wario because I feel I have more of a chance. Yeah, it's that bad.

I main Greninja and am keen to learn the MU with him. Customs off. Here are my main problems.

• Wario is so. ****ing. Safe. He seems basically unapproachable in the air and unpunishable in everything he does. I was literally playing this guy, reading him perfectly (like I could say to myself "here comes the rising Fair, a jump, now a Nair or fastfall empty land into shield) and I couldn't do a thing. I just don't know what to do. It seemed like I was never able to punish, or rather Wario is always able to weave out of my punishment range and punish me for trying to hit him.
• On the ground Wario is not so bad, however he seems to be able to transition seamlessly between throwing crap out in the air and shielding on the ground. Whenever I try to punish him oop, at some point he landed and is now shielding so I'm gonna get grabbed. I have no idea where the windows of punishment are for this character.
• Dash attack is really annoying. The guaranteed trip + tech chase gets me down. Wario launches himself really far at the start of the move so it's really easy to get hit by. Blocking works against it but I'm covering my issues with blocking later.
• Shurikens are invalidated completely by the bike. They may as well not exist. I thought not using shurikens might be the key to the MU but he continued to just wall me out in the air.
• Wario cannot be juggled. His air speed is too good and chomp just beats stuff. I do not know how to abuse his disadvantaged state.
• On a lot of moves, his damage per hit is really high. On the rare occasion that I did get a juggle off, a couple of Bairs and Dairs later and I'm back to square one, or probably behind in damage.
• Shielding can actually be good against him, and Wario can't kill a shielding opponent until high percent with Fthrow, however Greninja is not a character who wants to be sitting in shield. Also Wario can keep safe even when hitting a shield, either with spaced aerials or just driving into me with the bike repeatedly. You cannot sit in shield hoping he does something punishable, because a) he doesn't have to and b) quite simply, this game doesn't have infinite block.
• Killing is not a problem because of waft. Even the near-full charge version that he gets after like 90 seconds kills well at over 100%. He can also kill with the bike (why?) and various aerials and tilts.
• Wario is nigh unkillable, with a fantastic recovery and high weight.
• This character seems like he has no weaknesses.

Stuff I'm actually okay with:

• I don't find his edgeguarding tough to deal with. It's good, but his traps with Bite + throwing the bike up are generally reactable and avoidable. Greninja has a very flexible recovery anyway, he can Hydro Pump over Wario's head if necessary and usually get away with it, especially if Wario is holding the bike.
• I don't have too much of a problem with Bite in general, I generally know when it's coming and its poor range often lets it down. I don't get hit by it really apart from the occasional B-reverse.
• I don't mind fully charged waft too much. I know the hit confirms and I can generally avoid getting hit by the thing, I can count the number of times I've been cheesed by a 40% waft kill on one hand. However the next level of charge down is pretty effective and I get hit by that more often. He also can store that version up more easily.

tl;dr Wario is so safe, he seems totally unpunishable in everything he does in the air and he doesn't have to do punishable stuff on the ground. Every attempt to punish him results in him weaving away and punishing my attempt, or fastfalling into shield and grabbing me. I cannot hit the ******.

Any help here is much appreciated.

--------------------------------

Yeah. I hate Wario so much. He is my worst MU personally by far, yet I get other Greninja players telling me we go around even and I just don't know why. I can barely hit him, when I do it doesn't amount to much, and when I get hit I eat big chunks of damage because his damager per hit is high. I really need some pointers here. Once again, sorry that this is off our weekly characters.

Pretty much every other player in my region has a Wario. I used to main solely Greninja so I have some experience in this.

Wario definitely isn't as safe as you say. He has to commit hard to many options, the same way Greninja does.

Bike only trumps WS if you're obvious when you're going to throw them. If Wario gets on the bike that should be FREE damage for Greninja - just land on him with Nair. If you're far enough you can SH before using WS, but really just Nair him or catch him when he has to jump off.

Don't attack shields unsafely. Unless Wario perfect shields Greninja's Fair, it should be completely safe even on block. You can also apply shield pressure with jab 1 + 2, dtilt, and now Ftilt.

Wario's smashes are terrible KO options. Really, his Ftilt and Waft (and Dair at really high %) are his best kill moves. Greninja should NEVER be getting hit by Waft on or above the stage. I have no idea how you're getting KO'd by the bike.

Shielding is terrible against Wario, except obviously for the bike. Wario players want to condition you every way that they can - but to shield more than anything else. Bite trumps shield and is easily one of the best command grabs in the game. Do not shield under Wario - just keep moving.

Hydro Pump is great against any character that spends a lot of time in the air. Wario, Yoshi, Peach, etc. If they float around and approach with aerials, give your self space to spray them - it puts them in such a bad position when they have to slowly drop back down to the stage or ledge.

Wario has to approach Greninja and Greninja thrives when the opponent must approach him. Greninja himself has an awkward neutral game and approach options, so don't let Wario dictate the pace of the match.

Wario isn't untouchable offstage and Greninja has the mobility to keep up with any of the recovery options Wario chooses.

I should be playing with a few Wario players tomorrow so I'll try and remember to use Greninja and save the replays. I'll ask them what they think of the MU as well.

 

[bc1910]

@ FullMoon With respect, I'm not sure if you've fought Warios who are as good as the ones I've fought. Simply because Europe, especially Germany, is chock full of Wario players. The Germans love their unkillable walls, D3 is popular over there as well. But yeah, I do believe I've played some amazing Warios. I mean maybe you have too, I don't know, but it might not be likely if you avoid fighting him. You should play more Warios and help me lol

@ ephOE Thanks for your reply, I'll go through your points one by one.

Pretty much every other player in my region has a Wario. I used to main solely Greninja so I have some experience in this.

Good to hear. Can I asked why you switched from Greninja, or were you just branching out?

Wario definitely isn't as safe as you say. He has to commit hard to many options, the same way Greninja does.

Bike only trumps WS if you're obvious when you're going to throw them. If Wario gets on the bike that should be FREE damage for Greninja - just land on him with Nair. If you're far enough you can SH before using WS, but really just Nair him or catch him when he has to jump off.

Don't attack shields unsafely. Unless Wario perfect shields Greninja's Fair, it should be completely safe even on block. You can also apply shield pressure with jab 1 + 2, dtilt, and now Ftilt.

With respect, I know all this. The issue arises when he hard reads a shuriken and drives into me for it, and it's not risky for him to do because punishing the bike itself is hard. Nair only has 5 active frames, it's very hard to hit a fast-moving target with (Sonic would not be a problem if it was easy to Nair him out of Spin Dash for example) so while it's a hard punish, I've found it hard to actually hit with it. With Fair, only retreating Fair is safe on block, and the momentum necessary for that can be hard to set up against Wario because he can jump OoS any time and just Fair me in the face.

Do you know what other options I have to hit him out of the bike? Stuff with better active frames or can be used grounded? And how do you recommend I punish him best when he jumps off the bike? I was able to hit him with Bair a few times but again, his ability to weave usually saved him.

Wario's smashes are terrible KO options. Really, his Ftilt and Waft (and Dair at really high %) are his best kill moves. Greninja should NEVER be getting hit by Waft on or above the stage. I have no idea how you're getting KO'd by the bike.

I don't get hit by Waft too much, I generally die because he hitconfirmed it out of Dtilt or something, as I said I can count on one hand the number of times I've been cheesed by full charge Waft. The bike sometimes kills on those hard shuriken reads I talked about, wheelies can kill and I can't block because I'm frame trapped into the shuriken animation, but they don't kill at stupid percents or anything. I agree with you overall though, and killing is the least of my woes when fighting Wario. I know I'm going to live for a while against him if I avoid Fthrow near the ledge.

Shielding is terrible against Wario, except obviously for the bike. Wario players want to condition you every way that they can - but to shield more than anything else. Bite trumps shield and is easily one of the best command grabs in the game. Do not shield under Wario - just keep moving.

Interesting stuff. But I don't have much of an issue with Bite because it's short ranged and I can generally see it coming, I find shielding effective against him as long as I read Bite but my issues come from his aerials being safe on shield. Once again it's that weaving thing. He'll Dair me and weave away so he lands too far to punish, or Bair, weave away, and have it autocancel so I can't punish. Do you have any comments on that? In the meantime I will endeavor to keep moving and not rely on shield anyway.

Hydro Pump is great against any character that spends a lot of time in the air. Wario, Yoshi, Peach, etc. If they float around and approach with aerials, give your self space to spray them - it puts them in such a bad position when they have to slowly drop back down to the stage or ledge.

Wario's fall speed is a LOT better than every other air campy character. He's a medium-fast faller, while Peach and Yoshi have bottom 10 fall speeds. He can fast fall back to the ground a lot faster than the others can if need be, I didn't find Hydro Pump useful in actually hitting him. And again, putting him higher makes no difference because he can just weave away from all my aerials. But I will try to HP him more because I know it generally works against opponents who camp the air, just seems like Wario has the best options to get around it.

Wario has to approach Greninja and Greninja thrives when the opponent must approach him. Greninja himself has an awkward neutral game and approach options, so don't let Wario dictate the pace of the match.

Actually, Wario forces every character to approach except maybe Sheik because he just camps for Waft. Wario doesn't care if I sit back and don't approach him, because he can just hit the fully charged waft and cheese me at 50, rinse repeat. Having a damage lead against him doesn't mean much. Though I concede if someone were to get good enough at avoiding fully charged Waft, Wario would be forced to approach that particular person, and I am quite comfortable avoiding Waft. So maybe this is something I can abuse.

Wario isn't untouchable offstage and Greninja has the mobility to keep up with any of the recovery options Wario chooses.

I should be playing with a few Wario players tomorrow so I'll try and remember to use Greninja and save the replays. I'll ask them what they think of the MU as well.

I think I need to just practice edgeguarding him more, to be honest. On paper his recovery isn't as untouchable as I've found it to be in matches.

Thanks, that would be great. I'd be interested to see footage of this MU and get the opinions of other Warios. The Wario section of Smashboards is pretty dead, I'm not getting much response from over there.

 

[Wintropy]

Well I'm not against playing with you (there's likely going to be some lag due to distance tho) but I just did some testing myself with my sister.

Pit does reflect the water, but he also does the uppercut automatically after it, which sends him flying and leaves him wide open for punishment.

So Hydro Pump screws up with both of his recoveries, in both cases leaving him wide open for a strong Smash attack to finish him off.

Good to know! Then yeah, get your flow on, that makes things much more difficult for us.

Good luck with the matchup! It was nice discussing things with you~ :3

 

[ephOE]

The Bike vs. WS situation is a lot like Charizard's Flare Blitz. If you try to abuse WS, he'll armor right through them and punish you hard. The Bike is the same - only use WS from a safe distance. Try one or two at the beginning of the match, bait Wario into using the Bike instead of letting him bait you into WS. If you're falling WS is fine because you can either use the little hop it gives you to stay safe or just pick Wario right off the Bike by letting go before you hit the ground. FC WS has incredible priority, it will beat out the bike every time. A note on customs, Wario will probably be using the faster Bike but ShifSuri still has that amazing priority you can use to pick him off.

SHFF Nair is something you should just be able to do as a Greninja player, you have to be able to space his aerials correctly. Dair can also be used to easily knock Wario off the Bike, even Fair. Bair is a great move to chase Wario with when he jumps off.

I wouldn't recommend grounded options if you can avoid doing so, but F smash will work with good timing because hitting the Bike will extend it's active frames into Wario. If you're right at the edge (where Wario will either have to jump off or turn) Substitute can be a useful option. If he jumps, you have a degree of control to chase him down. If you're challenging Bike on the ground a lot, expect wheelies.

Think of the Bike (and Bite, for that matter) like King DDD's gordos. These things can rack up a lot of free damage and there are certain ways you can't react to them - for example, you can't jab 1 Wario off the Bike, you can't jab Wario's bite, and you can't reflect a gordo with jab 1. If you're really having trouble challenging the Bike at every turn (hehehe), just avoid it. Greninja is pretty good at not getting hit. Also the Bike isn't like BJr.'s Kart, he can't cancel it by jumping and attack with an aerial.

Try finding some good Yoshi players. The air time, being able to fade in and out with moves, feeling like you're forced to approach, dealing with heavies, etc. - all things that happen in the Yoshi MU. Sooner or later you'll find those moments when the other player is going to use a SH aerial and you're able to run under them and Up Smash.

Wario's will often recover high, but if they go to the ledge, he doesn't have to much to respond to a ledge trump with - especially when the bike is already on stage. His Bite will beat Bair - basically a Wariocide - but if you tech the stage or just wait just a tiny bit to get out you can still recover easily. Otherwise, he's in a situation where he has to regrab the ledge and Greninja has a few options to punish that.

My go-to for most MUs is now Toon Link, and in my experience Wario has to approach me a lot more than I him.

 

[Gunla]

Results of the past three weeks:

• (50:50)
  
• (55:45? If this is contested, I'll make a poll)
• (55:45)
• (55:45)

This Week:

• (?:?) @TheReflexWonder, any thoughts on this MU?
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (Impressions! Give your general input on this Matchup. We will likely not place down a rating.)

 

[Wintropy]

I dabble in Ganondorf a bit, so I'm gonna jot down my impressions:

- Approaching is not Ganon's strong suit. Shuriken can keep him out if used judiciously (though, as I recall, Wizkick clanks with weak shuriken).

- Pump wrecks his recovery. Ganon has decent aerials in case you want to challenge him off-stage, though I think Greninja has better frame data and range, which should be enough to wall him out?

- He's slow, of course, so he's not too difficult to grab, and his meager airspeed means you should be able to juggle him handily.

- The usual caveat: don't make mistakes, as Ganon is great for the punish and will make your life hell if your guard is down.

Just a few quick observations. I'd ask the Ganon board for detailed insights, they know what they're talking about much more than a casual Ganon scrub like myself does.

 

[Calvonta]

Ganon is somewhat easy to deal with because Greninjas mobility, and being able to combo him easily I think of this matchup like the lesser Captain Falcon matchup instead of speed there's more power obviously.

Like Wintropy said, if you get too auto pilot he will break your face in.

 

[adom4]

I admit i haven't played that many Greninjas but from the few i played i feel like Greninja definitely has the advantage, somewhere around 6-4 (Maybe a bit worse but i'm not completely sure).

 

[FullMoon]

The main thing with Ganon is that we need to pressure him into letting his guard down. Shurikens are great for that since he has no sure counter to them. The best he can do is Wizard Kick or dash attack if he's close enough and the former especially leaves him right open if he doesn't hit us.

He have a good punish option in our dash grab and when Ganon messes up it's time to get in his face and put him in a bad position with our grabs.

Once we put Ganon in disadvantage, go ham, he can't do much to escape our juggles but do be very wary of an aerial Wizard Kick because that is very strong and will very much kill us, but if he does misses it then he just left him open for more punishment again. If we're on the ground when he uses the kick we can even counter it with Substitute if we react fast enough.

Hydro Pump messes with Ganon's recovery badly and is often going to result in him falling to his death. He doesn't have much to contest our B-Air offstage as well, as it's a frame 5 move and being hit by it is pretty much a death sentence offstage.

Do be careful with Ganondorf's own edgeguarding potential, however, as Up-Air can semi-spike us if we get hit by the right hitbox, plus his D-Air is a very scary tool when we're recovering low.

Also, if Ganondorf tries to Side-B suicide you and you see it coming, spraying him with Hydro Pump can often push him far enough that he won't be making it to the ledge and fall to his death alone.

In general this MU plays much like what you would expect when a ninja has to deal with an opponent much stronger than him.

Play it safe, don't give him an opportunity to attack, pressure him into letting his guard down, then go for the kill. Mess up too much and you're dead.

We have a definite advantage here, probably a solid 60:40 in our favor or maybe even 65:35. Ganondorf is probably the easiest of the heavies for us to fight just because he lacks both mobility (DK, Charizard and Bowser can be surprisingly fast) and a good recovery (like Dedede and Charizard).

 

[bc1910]

60:40 seems about right. I think we win convincingly but Ganon has too much comeback power for it to be any better than a simple advantage. He can take your stock with about 4 good reads, our job is to never let him get in the position where he can make us vulnerable to getting read like that (below us in the air, at good ranges for Flame Choke etc). We can do this effectively but we can never let our guard down, so I don't think we cruise through the MU easily enough for it to be better than 60:40.

 

[Ludiloco]

Some thoughts about

Roy is similar to Luigi in that he struggles in MUs where he has to approach, but once he's inside all hell can break loose for his opponent. Unlike Luigi, however, Roy is a little more difficult to camp due to his high ground and air speed. We can, to some extent, keep Roy out with shurikens. Like many of Greninja's MUs, this one should be played by running away and baiting moves, then using our quick attacks to punish. Stay on the move, force Roy to commit to one of his more unsafe ground options (his aerials are all relatively hard to punish, mostly nair and fair though), and don't let him space you out with fairs.

As with all sword characters, hydro pump absolutely wrecks his recovery. Because Roy's up special has armor when it first comes out, I wouldn't recommend challenging it with bair or any other regular attack. Your best bet is likely to drop off the ledge and hydro pump, pushing Roy up into punish range. His up special also has very poor vertical range when compared to that of Marth and Lucina (in exchange for more control over trajectory), so don't be afraid to challenge Roy when he's recovering from the blast zone. Chances are if you make him do anything other than air dodge he may not be able to come back.

We should not be boxing with Roy at close range. If he gets us with even just a jab we have the potential to take 30-40% easily. At high % this isn't as much of a problem, but we still need to be incredibly aware of Roy's shield, as up special out-of-shield is an incredibly potent KO option at around 110%. Roy gets the most knockback out of the base of his sword, so it's doubly beneficial for us to stay just out of his range while running away and poking at him when he throws out moves.

If played well, I don't think Roy has an easy time beating us. But if you let him get inside, one combo can give him the edge he needs to finish us off when he lands another strong attack. I'll call it 55:45 Ninja for now, because Roy has the mobility to get in but we have equally good mobility to run away.


Some general notes for fighting Roy (not Greninja specific):
- Don't try to punish neutral B, Roys like to throw this move out because it has very low endlag and lures opponents in for an f smash or other strong move.
- If he comes down and attacks your shield, be patient and don't grab right away. Especially for characters with slow grabs, his autocancelled nair + a jab or d tilt means he can probably beat out your grab if you drop your shield. Just wait for him to throw out another move and then grab him, or just jump away if he tries to tomahawk.
- Roy is really heavy, which means he lives a while and falls pretty fast. He's absolute combo food at early-mid %, but if you can't land the KO on him early you're probably going to lose. Roy with rage is not something to toy with. Gimping him early is the best way to beat him.

 

[FullMoon]

Some thoughts about

Roy is similar to Luigi in that he struggles in MUs where he has to approach, but once he's inside all hell can break loose for his opponent. Unlike Luigi, however, Roy is a little more difficult to camp due to his high ground and air speed. We can, to some extent, keep Roy out with shurikens. Like many of Greninja's MUs, this one should be played by running away and baiting moves, then using our quick attacks to punish. Stay on the move, force Roy to commit to one of his more unsafe ground options (his aerials are all relatively hard to punish, mostly nair and fair though), and don't let him space you out with fairs.

As with all sword characters, hydro pump absolutely wrecks his recovery. Because Roy's up special has armor when it first comes out, I wouldn't recommend challenging it with bair or any other regular attack. Your best bet is likely to drop off the ledge and hydro pump, pushing Roy up into punish range. His up special also has very poor vertical range when compared to that of Marth and Lucina (in exchange for more control over trajectory), so don't be afraid to challenge Roy when he's recovering from the blast zone. Chances are if you make him do anything other than air dodge he may not be able to come back.

We should not be boxing with Roy at close range. If he gets us with even just a jab we have the potential to take 30-40% easily. At high % this isn't as much of a problem, but we still need to be incredibly aware of Roy's shield, as up special out-of-shield is an incredibly potent KO option at around 110%. Roy gets the most knockback out of the base of his sword, so it's doubly beneficial for us to stay just out of his range while running away and poking at him when he throws out moves.

If played well, I don't think Roy has an easy time beating us. But if you let him get inside, one combo can give him the edge he needs to finish us off when he lands another strong attack. I'll call it 55:45 Ninja for now, because Roy has the mobility to get in but we have equally good mobility to run away.


Some general notes for fighting Roy (not Greninja specific):
- Don't try to punish neutral B, Roys like to throw this move out because it has very low endlag and lures opponents in for an f smash or other strong move.
- If he comes down and attacks your shield, be patient and don't grab right away. Especially for characters with slow grabs, his autocancelled nair + a jab or d tilt means he can probably beat out your grab if you drop your shield. Just wait for him to throw out another move and then grab him, or just jump away if he tries to tomahawk.
- Roy is really heavy, which means he lives a while and falls pretty fast. He's absolute combo food at early-mid %, but if you can't land the KO on him early you're probably going to lose. Roy with rage is not something to toy with. Gimping him early is the best way to beat him.

1 - Roy is barely heavier than Greninja. He has the same weight as Sonic and Pac-Man which is 95 to Greninja's 94.

2 - Blazer only has super-armor when used on the ground IIRC.

 

[Ludiloco]

1. I guess he just feels heavy due to his fall speed, and it seems like he lives pretty long.

2. Then alright, it can be challenged with bair offstage. I still would probably say use hydro pump as it can be used at a distance and you don't risk getting hit/stage spiked.

I haven't played a ton of Roys, and obviously his meta is brand new.. but the ones I have played in bracket have actually been pretty good

 

[FullMoon]

I myself can't say much about Roy since the only experience I have with him was when I played with Lucas.

Though I don't think Roy's fall speed would make him live much longer than Greninja. I mean, we fall faster than him.

I have a lot of experience with Yoshi but I don't know how to explain the MU yet. I can safely say it's even though.

 

[Ludiloco]

Again, it could just be placebo. Living long in this game isn't exactly rare.

I'd be interested to hear you talk about it then, as I think the MU between us and Yoshi is one of our most frustrating. We can't touch him at close range, he can chase us down and pelt us with eggs at midrange, and his super armor double jump and frame 3 nair make him tough to juggle, as well as the constant threat of down special.

Since we're a fast faller he also gets good setups on us, like jab -> down special/up smash for KOs. Offstage I think we beat him easily, but you have to be super patient against him anywhere else. It's kinda similar to how I feel about the Fox MU.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja dies a lot quicker than his weight value would suggest. Watch any "this move KOs these characters at this percent" video, you'll see he's always dying around the same time as Zero Suit and Falco despite being more than 10 units heavier than them (CIP, TSRK kills all 3 at 75% on Smashville with no DI). Greninja usually dies earlier than characters like Diddy, Toon Link and Duck Hunt despite being heavier than all 3. Gravity (different from fall speed) affects knockback, I think Greninja's gravity is really low.

Roy doesn't die from TSRK until 85%. It's not placebo, some combination of values causes Greninja to die a lot earlier than other characters around his weight of 94. I expect it's down to gravity and hurtbox size, since he's actually a fairly tall character with an idle stance low to the ground; he extends to full height when launched. His fast fall speed does little to reduce his vertical knockback. The same kind of thing happens with Bowser, who despite being the heaviest character by 6 units usually dies earlier than DK and D3 no matter which way he is launched (a fast fall speed usually gets you killed earlier horizontally, but Bowser still dies earlier).

I actually wonder if Greninja's weight was nerfed at some point and no-one picked up on it.

 

[FullMoon]

Huh. You're right, I just went to check Kero's kill %s for moves and despite being of the same weight Greninja does die sooner than Ness consistently.

I don't think his weight was nerfed but there's some probably some hidden variable at work here, likely gravity. That explains why Greninja always felt lighter to me than he seemed.

Still, I never expected Greninja to be much of a survivor in this game so whatever. At least we're not Mewtwo.

 

[Lavani]

I actually wonder if Greninja's weight was nerfed at some point and no-one picked up on it.

Luigi SJP KOs Greninja at 66% on 3DS FD in both 1.0.8 and 1.0.0, so I don't think so. He's just susceptible to vertical KOs.

According to this Greninja's gravity is actually the second highest of the standard cast, but I'm not entirely sure how gravity's mechanics work or if that's even the stat people traditionally refer to when talking about gravity.

 

[FullMoon]

Huh.

Taking a quick look at those stats, there doesn't really seem to be one that would make Greninja easier to kill. He seem to be at least average in most categories. Shouldn't having a high gravity and fall speed help him not die as easily vertically?

... Man this game is a lot more complicated than one would think at first.

 

[Eureka]

While I don't know much about the depths of Greninja play and his strengths and weaknesses, I can give my observations from the Roy side of the matchup.

The first thing to note is that Greninja's fast fall speed is a problem for himself. It leaves him susceptible to many things Roy can do for longer. Double Edge Dance hugely benefits from Greninja's fall speed, as Roy can easily connect with a full damage set into the down variation for 20+ percent up until KO percentage for the forward and up finishers. The move has quite a bit of end lag and stales rather fast, but it is still a great damage racking punish option. Greninja is also extra vulnerable to both jab grab and jab combos from Roy. Down throw also combos Greninja hard, but at the same time forward throw has way fewer combo options then normal. Still, the trade off is worth it for Roy.

In terms of the neutral, the fact that Greninja has a projectile is a huge boon. This means that Roy can't attempt to simply wall out Geninja with his disjointed hit boxes and has to approach. However, while Water Shuriken forces Roy to approach, it does not do much to impede his approach. The combination of the 3rd fastest air speed in the game and high fall speed means that Roy doesn't have many issues getting around shurikens and can punish with fair or nair if Greninja throws one at the wrong time. While I'm sure Shadow Sneaking is a risky proposition against any character, it's even riskier against Roy, because counter beats it for free and will take stocks if you let it.

It's not all ph1r3 and rainbows for Roy though. While he has many powerful options, he also has exploitable weaknesses. His recovery is the most obvious one. Hydro Pump does absolutely silly things to Blazer, we do not enjoy recovering against characters who can go down and do shenanigans like that. Roy does have a decent amount of control in how he recovers though, so while gimping Roy is effective, it isn't free. Roy's other problem in the matchup is his frame data. Roy is not a very safe character, outside of a few properly spaced moves and neutral b, he leaves himself open a lot of the time. His moves don't have the greatest start up either, with his fastest ground option being his five frame jab. While this is usually sufficient Geninja has the quick moves to punish and sometimes beat out Roy's.

Overall this is a match up where Greninja has to exploit his enemies weaknesses if he wants to win. Greninja can not go toe to toe with Roy, that is the biggest factor about this match up. Roy will win the vast majority of any straight up fights Greninja attempts to engage in, so he has to bait and punish while running away and using shurikens intelligently. It was said earlier that, while Roy has the mobility to get in Greninja has the mobility to get away. The same works in reverse though, while Greninja has the mobility to run away, Roy has the mobility to chase, and you can't run away forever. There will be points in the match where Greninja will need to make a play to put himself back into a favorable situation, and if those plays can be made Greninja has a shot at winning. If those plays can not be made, the matchup is Roy's to lose.

I'd say the matchup is 45:55 in Roy's favor. Because, while the Greninja player can put himself in a favorable position to win, he can not afford to mess up or get outplayed by the Roy at all because Roy can push that advantage all the way into taking a stock.

 

[Calvonta]

Yeah Roy seems like a tough MU

 

[Codaption]

Quick note:

While I don't know much about the depths of Greninja play and his strengths and weaknesses, I can give my observations from the Roy side of the matchup.

The first thing to note is that Greninja's fast fall speed is a problem for himself. It leaves him susceptible to many things Roy can do for longer. Double Edge Dance hugely benefits from Greninja's fall speed, as Roy can easily connect with a full damage set into the down variation for 20+ percent up until KO percentage for the forward and up finishers. The move has quite a bit of end lag and stales rather fast, but it is still a great damage racking punish option. Greninja is also extra vulnerable to both jab grab and jab combos from Roy. Down throw also combos Greninja hard, but at the same time forward throw has way fewer combo options then normal. Still, the trade off is worth it for Roy.

In terms of the neutral, the fact that Greninja has a projectile is a huge boon. This means that Roy can't attempt to simply wall out Geninja with his disjointed hit boxes and has to approach. However, while Water Shuriken forces Roy to approach, it does not do much to impede his approach. The combination of the 3rd fastest air speed in the game and high fall speed means that Roy doesn't have many issues getting around shurikens and can punish with fair or nair if Greninja throws one at the wrong time. While I'm sure Shadow Sneaking is a risky proposition against any character, it's even riskier against Roy, because counter beats it for free and will take stocks if you let it.

It's not all ph1r3 and rainbows for Roy though. While he has many powerful options, he also has exploitable weaknesses. His recovery is the most obvious one. Hydro Pump does absolutely silly things to Blazer, we do not enjoy recovering against characters who can go down and do shenanigans like that. Roy does have a decent amount of control in how he recovers though, so while gimping Roy is effective, it isn't free. Roy's other problem in the matchup is his frame data. Roy is not a very safe character, outside of a few properly spaced moves and neutral b, he leaves himself open a lot of the time. His moves don't have the greatest start up either, with his fastest ground option being his five frame jab. While this is usually sufficient Geninja has the quick moves to punish and sometimes beat out Roy's.

Overall this is a match up where Greninja has to exploit his enemies weaknesses if he wants to win. Greninja can not go toe to toe with Roy, that is the biggest factor about this match up. Roy will win the vast majority of any straight up fights Greninja attempts to engage in, so he has to bait and punish while running away and using shurikens intelligently. It was said earlier that, while Roy has the mobility to get in Greninja has the mobility to get away. The same works in reverse though, while Greninja has the mobility to run away, Roy has the mobility to chase, and you can't run away forever. There will be points in the match where Greninja will need to make a play to put himself back into a favorable situation, and if those plays can be made Greninja has a shot at winning. If those plays can not be made, the matchup is Roy's to lose.

I'd say the matchup is 45:55 in Roy's favor. Because, while the Greninja player can put himself in a favorable position to win, he can not afford to mess up or get outplayed by the Roy at all because Roy can push that advantage all the way into taking a stock.

Roy has the 3rd fastest airspeed? that...doesn't sound right, at all. I'm gonna test it later and edit this.

other than that, though, well said! It seemed to me that Roy's tipper physics would make his moves inherently riskier than others, though I had no real confirmation of this until now.

EDIT: Sweet Christmas, that's absurd. Why Roy, out of everyone in the game?

To be fair, it's hard to tell on sight if he has higher airspeed than Jigglypuff, his competition for third fastest (fourth if counting Speed Shulk), but if he does....jeez, Sakurai, why must you hurt us puffs so?

 

[FullMoon]

While I don't know much about the depths of Greninja play and his strengths and weaknesses, I can give my observations from the Roy side of the matchup.

The first thing to note is that Greninja's fast fall speed is a problem for himself. It leaves him susceptible to many things Roy can do for longer. Double Edge Dance hugely benefits from Greninja's fall speed, as Roy can easily connect with a full damage set into the down variation for 20+ percent up until KO percentage for the forward and up finishers. The move has quite a bit of end lag and stales rather fast, but it is still a great damage racking punish option. Greninja is also extra vulnerable to both jab grab and jab combos from Roy. Down throw also combos Greninja hard, but at the same time forward throw has way fewer combo options then normal. Still, the trade off is worth it for Roy.

In terms of the neutral, the fact that Greninja has a projectile is a huge boon. This means that Roy can't attempt to simply wall out Geninja with his disjointed hit boxes and has to approach. However, while Water Shuriken forces Roy to approach, it does not do much to impede his approach. The combination of the 3rd fastest air speed in the game and high fall speed means that Roy doesn't have many issues getting around shurikens and can punish with fair or nair if Greninja throws one at the wrong time. While I'm sure Shadow Sneaking is a risky proposition against any character, it's even riskier against Roy, because counter beats it for free and will take stocks if you let it.

It's not all ph1r3 and rainbows for Roy though. While he has many powerful options, he also has exploitable weaknesses. His recovery is the most obvious one. Hydro Pump does absolutely silly things to Blazer, we do not enjoy recovering against characters who can go down and do shenanigans like that. Roy does have a decent amount of control in how he recovers though, so while gimping Roy is effective, it isn't free. Roy's other problem in the matchup is his frame data. Roy is not a very safe character, outside of a few properly spaced moves and neutral b, he leaves himself open a lot of the time. His moves don't have the greatest start up either, with his fastest ground option being his five frame jab. While this is usually sufficient Geninja has the quick moves to punish and sometimes beat out Roy's.

Overall this is a match up where Greninja has to exploit his enemies weaknesses if he wants to win. Greninja can not go toe to toe with Roy, that is the biggest factor about this match up. Roy will win the vast majority of any straight up fights Greninja attempts to engage in, so he has to bait and punish while running away and using shurikens intelligently. It was said earlier that, while Roy has the mobility to get in Greninja has the mobility to get away. The same works in reverse though, while Greninja has the mobility to run away, Roy has the mobility to chase, and you can't run away forever. There will be points in the match where Greninja will need to make a play to put himself back into a favorable situation, and if those plays can be made Greninja has a shot at winning. If those plays can not be made, the matchup is Roy's to lose.

I'd say the matchup is 45:55 in Roy's favor. Because, while the Greninja player can put himself in a favorable position to win, he can not afford to mess up or get outplayed by the Roy at all because Roy can push that advantage all the way into taking a stock.

I don't think Roy beats Greninja.

Not only is Roy's recovery very abusable by Hydro Pump, Roy's disadvantaged state is really bad and makes him very prone to being juggled. Sure, Roy can dish out some serious damage once he gets in on us, but the reverse is true too. Greninja has many simple combos that do quite a bit of damage themselves, N-Air -> F-Smash deals 25% and since Roy is a fast faller too, it connects on him for longer. Then there's things like N-Air -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Smash for 34%, Dash Attack -> F-Air for 20%, and so on.

Greninja can build damage on Roy just as fast as the opposite. Water Shuriken wins Neutral for Greninja, making so that he doesn't have to approach. His dash grab will punish Roy's mistakes really badly by putting him in his bad disadvantaged stage.

That, coupled with having a very exploitable recovery while Roy won't be gimping Greninja ever unless he get the hardest of reads is why I believe the Roy MU can't be worse than even to us. A lot of characters can combo Greninja for a lot of damage, Up-Tilt chains are easy 30-40% on Greninja, but his high damage output from his combos allows him turn things around quickly.

Your main argument for Roy beating Greninja is that he can combo the frog easier, but you forgot to take into consideration that Greninja is a potential contender for most combo heavy character in the game and he can easily keep up with Roy's combos with his own.

Roy also lacks something to make us fear shielding his moves, which is Shield Breaker. Flare Blade has super low end lag, but once the player catches up to that they won't fall for it anymore. Greninja's punish game is very good and you just said yourself that Roy leaves himself open very often.

Honestly the two characters seem to be evenly matches in neutral. But the fact that Greninja wrecks Roy's recovery so bad might sway it into Greninja's favor.

You did say you didn't know much about Greninja's strenghts, so I'll assume you just didn't know how rewarding his combos really are.

 

[Eureka]

I don't think Roy beats Greninja.

Not only is Roy's recovery very abusable by Hydro Pump, Roy's disadvantaged state is really bad and makes him very prone to being juggled. Sure, Roy can dish out some serious damage once he gets in on us, but the reverse is true too. Greninja has many simple combos that do quite a bit of damage themselves, N-Air -> F-Smash deals 25% and since Roy is a fast faller too, it connects on him for longer. Then there's things like N-Air -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Smash for 34%, Dash Attack -> F-Air for 20%, and so on.

Greninja can build damage on Roy just as fast as the opposite. Water Shuriken wins Neutral for Greninja, making so that he doesn't have to approach. His dash grab will punish Roy's mistakes really badly by putting him in his bad disadvantaged stage.

That, coupled with having a very exploitable recovery while Roy won't be gimping Greninja ever unless he get the hardest of reads is why I believe the Roy MU can't be worse than even to us. A lot of characters can combo Greninja for a lot of damage, Up-Tilt chains are easy 30-40% on Greninja, but his high damage output from his combos allows him turn things around quickly.

Your main argument for Roy beating Greninja is that he can combo the frog easier, but you forgot to take into consideration that Greninja is a potential contender for most combo heavy character in the game and he can easily keep up with Roy's combos with his own.

Roy also lacks something to make us fear shielding his moves, which is Shield Breaker. Flare Blade has super low end lag, but once the player catches up to that they won't fall for it anymore. Greninja's punish game is very good and you just said yourself that Roy leaves himself open very often.

Honestly the two characters seem to be evenly matches in neutral. But the fact that Greninja wrecks Roy's recovery so bad might sway it into Greninja's favor.

You did say you didn't know much about Greninja's strenghts, so I'll assume you just didn't know how rewarding his combos really are.

I did not know the details about Greninja's combo game, what effective combos does he have specifically? Does he have any off of throws?

While Greninja may be able to keep up with Roy in terms of building damage, the big difference is KOing. Again I don't know all of Greninja's kill options are or how reliable they are, but I'm pretty sure they don't kill people at 70%.

At least for me, I don't have problems getting juggled with Roy. Because he moves and falls so fast in the air, combined with nair being a great landing move, it's not easy to keep him off the ground.

I don't know if Water Shuriken "wins" neutral, it just means Roy has to approach, which he has the ability to do while getting around shurikens.

Roy can gimp surprisingly effectively with fair and bair, assuming he doesn't go too deep like an idiot, he can actually edgeguard well.

Roy does have a reason not to hold shield on him, it's grab. Sure it's nothing special, but considering the rewards he gets off grabs and having arguably the best tomahawk in the game it's a very effective option.

Hydro Pump definitely seems to be Greninja's ace in the hole in this match. I'm not going to pretend like Roy's recovery is good, it's not. What it does have going for it though is versatility. The sole fact that Roy can angle Blazer means that Greninja needs to make a prediction on where Roy's going to go in order to gimp him. Blazer will beat almost any aerial Greninja tries to challenge it with as well. That being said though, the fact of the matter is a wet Roy trying to Blazer is quite possibly a dead Roy.

However, Roy can not be gimped unless he's gotten of stage in the first place, which is going to often require properly baiting and punishing Roy. Greninja can definitely punish Roy hard, but Roy needs to make a mistake or get outplayed to give Greninja the chance, and Roy can punish just as hard too. In my opinion Greninja needs to outplay Roy in order to win the match up. That to me means that Greninja is at a disadvantage against Roy. That's just my opinion though, as I don't know enough at this point to draw any conclusions.

To be fair, it's hard to tell on sight if he has higher airspeed than Jigglypuff, his competition for third fastest (fourth if counting Speed Shulk), but if he does....jeez, Sakurai, why must you hurt us puffs so?

Nah, he's not faster then jiggs. Jigglypuff has the 2nd fastest air speed, although I don't know if Roy's exact value has been determined yet, we know for a fact it's not as high as Jigglypuffs.

 

[FullMoon]

I did not know the details about Greninja's combo game, what effective combos does he have specifically? Does he have any off of throws?

Up-Throw -> Up-Air is a true combo that works at mid-percents. You can see most of his combos here.

While Greninja may be able to keep up with Roy in terms of building damage, the big difference is KOing. Again I don't know all of Greninja's kill options are or how reliable they are, but I'm pretty sure they don't kill people at 70%.

Up-Smash kills Roy at 95%, Greninja can also combo into it so Roy can die at early percentages to it. Greninja definely does not lack in the power department even if Roy does have more KO potential.

At least for me, I don't have problems getting juggled with Roy. Because he moves and falls so fast in the air, combined with nair being a great landing move, it's not easy to keep him off the ground.

Greninja is very mobile so he can chase Roy while he's in the air easily and catch his landings very well. Him being mobile and falling fast in the air doesn't matter much when the one chasing him is even more mobile. Roy is only faster than Greninja in Air Speed, everything else Greninja has is better which allows him to chase after Roy very easily.

I don't know if Water Shuriken "wins" neutral, it just means Roy has to approach, which he has the ability to do while getting around shurikens.

Greninja wants people to come after him because by forcing him to come after them it means he can stay in the defensive and wait for the right moment to strike.

Roy can gimp surprisingly effectively with fair and bair, assuming he doesn't go too deep like an idiot, he can actually edgeguard well.

Greninja's recovery with both Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump is too versatile to be reliably gimped even by the likes of Sheik, Roy won't be edgeguarding him unless the Greninja player messes up badly.

Roy does have a reason not to hold shield on him, it's grab. Sure it's nothing special, but considering the rewards he gets off grabs and having arguably the best tomahawk in the game it's a very effective option.

I meant more in the sense in that holding shield against him is not as dangerous because he doesn't have the power to break your shield instantly which gives a lot more reward than just a grab.

Hydro Pump definitely seems to be Greninja's ace in the hole in this match. I'm not going to pretend like Roy's recovery is good, it's not. What it does have going for it though is versatility. The sole fact that Roy can angle Blazer means that Greninja needs to make a prediction on where Roy's going to go in order to gimp him. Blazer will beat almost any aerial Greninja tries to challenge it with as well. That being said though, the fact of the matter is a wet Roy trying to Blazer is quite possibly a dead Roy.

Greninja can just set up a wall of water between Roy and the ledge and he will touch the water and either leave himself vulnerable or just fall to his death.

However, Roy can not be gimped unless he's gotten of stage in the first place, which is going to often require properly baiting and punishing Roy. Greninja can definitely punish Roy hard, but Roy needs to make a mistake or get outplayed to give Greninja the chance, and Roy can punish just as hard too. In my opinion Greninja needs to outplay Roy in order to win the match up. That to me means that Greninja is at a disadvantage against Roy. This is just my opinion at this point though, as I don't know enough about Greninja to draw any conclusions.

Bait-and-punish doesn't mean just outplaying, Water Shuriken is going to be a constant annoyance and Greninja high mobility makes him a very evasive character.

In this MU it's Roy who's going to be forced to go after Greninja. The ninja will be staying in the defensive and while Roy is trying to get hits in, Greninja is going to wait for him to do something unsafe and punish. Roy has no way of forcing Greninja to go after him because he's just going to be pelted with shurikens forever otherwise. It gives Greninja stage control and that's a very big deal.

Even though Greninja doesn't have as much disjointed range as Roy, he does have some good spacing tools of his own in B-Air, F-Air and F-Tilt, he can pressure Roy as well and he also has fast moves to get Roy away from him if he gets too close in a frame 3 jab.

It's worth noting that even if Roy has better KO power, Greninja can kill him even earlier with a gimp if he gets him offstage early. With his great dash grab, he can easily get a grab and throw him offstage and edgeguard him for an early kill.

I would offer to play a few rounds with you myself so you could get a better sense of things, but I'm afraid it probably would have some bad lag.

 

[Lawliet626]

im interested on knowing how yoshi is an even MU since he's always felt like the 4th/5fth most difficult match up for us (IMO) for all the reasons ludiloco said.I feel as if he has no need to approach and can easily ruin our aerials with his eggs, and the constant aerial B reversed command grab is something we should definitely be careful of.and the way he can space his aerials makes him really hard to catch and can bait us into falling into other things
This match up is feels really frustrating.

 

[bc1910]

If Greninja did need to outplay Roy to win then yes, he would lose the MU. But I don't think he does. In short, Roy is forced to approach and his approaching options aren't good, his recovery is HP bait and his disadvantage state is bad especially when you consider Counter often doesn't come out fast enough to actually counter repeated Uairs from Greninja.

On the other hand, Roy is an insanely dangerous character who can end Greninja or anyone else for that matter as soon as they hit like 60 and are anywhere near a blastzone. His Fsmash is that good. His advantage state is just really strong in general too, he has some excellent combos and tech chases especially from throws.

I think the MU is even because basically, whilst Greninja has the tools to dictate the match's pace, Roy can just end him for one mistake. He demands more respect than Greninja does. I see this as a simple cat and mouse MU. That said I think the MU will get better for Greninja in future as we get better at avoiding Roy's kill moves because, although they are powerful, they have short (killing) range and actually Fsmash is the only one that kills at obscene percents. Plus we shouldn't forget Roy is barely a month old. I don't see this MU getting better for Roy in future barring the discovery of some amazing tech, simply because I think it will get easier for Greninja to evade Roy than it will for Roy to catch Greninja. This is rooted in their mobility but also Roy's effective range being quite low. He does have good range overall with his tippers, but he won't get a chance to outspace Greninja that way because Greninja should take that chance to move away and force an approach.

 

[Funkermonster]

Gonna go hang with some friends tnight to Smash, and I think the best Yoshi and Gann are gonna be there, hopefully I can play them all in friendlies and have something to talk about tomorrow...... that is if I don't get distracted with playing , , or too much at least.

 

[ephOE]

I think the Yoshi MU is 50:50. Yoshi has a lot of strengths that make him great in Smash 4, and I'm one of those players who believes he's underrepresented at this point. That said, Greninja doesn't have to deal with a lot of Yoshi's bull****.

I really like the way れあ played here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjtK_aPi1Lw

That Yoshi obviously isn't on the same level as a player like Yoshidora, and it was online of course.

Hydro Pump can really just mess with Yoshi when he's not tossing out lots of eggs, and also can totally screw with his down B. Yoshi's down B is pretty strong on the ground though, it will really punish you for shielding too much. You shouldn't be shielding that much except to block eggs and Yoshi's YOLO dash anyways, though, because (you're playing Greninja, and) Yoshi's command grab is great and gives him some good mobility when used properly.

Crawling to stay low is pretty useful since Yoshi will spend so much time in the air. Yoshi also has quite a few moves that aren't too difficult to Subsitute.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Roy Nair only AC on the first part of nair on hit. and his up b only has Super armor on the ground while aerial version has slightly weaker KBG and base damage. Outside of that you also want to be careful of Roy around ledge situations cause flare blade can beat neutral get up, get up attacks and it's hitbox can jumping off the ledge difficult as well and Roy recovers quickly off of flare blade so he can possibly punish a roll option as well.

Outside of that I never played a Greninja with my Roy yet so I be interested in grinding out the MU with some people in the week if possible if I'm not busy.