Marth Help and Match Critique

[Kale.]

Hey guys, just played in tourney yesterday and I was frustrated with how I did. Placed 13th at my local, but I definitely feel like I should've won my winner's and loser's games and ended up around 7th. I'm looking for some help w/ the Marth matchup and also some general advice for moving forward with my play.

Here are the two games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOnWOgxNUk (Game 1), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNYxVz7sjhU (Game 2).

I specifically have issues getting down when I'm above the Marth, dealing with his spaced aerials, and how to best extend combos and what my grab followups are. All criticism is greatly appreciated.


Thanks!!

 

[Flurb18]

1st mistake was going to FD game one. That's in marth's favor, easy juggles/neutral game. You should be striking yoshi's and FD vs marth.

When you're above marth (see juggling on FD), you were just kinda trying to avoid him and desperately throwing out moves if he got close. Marth outranges pretty much everything you have going down, so you have to space these very carefully (as opposed to throwing them out) OR use airdodge + fast fall to get down (my favorite option, if you perform it well). This is harder on FD because there aren't any platforms (another case for why the stage is bad for this MU), but still doable.

Grab followups generally are downthrow - dash dance - aerial. You can also chain downthrows on marth close to zero, or get an upsmash/uptilt, but those are harder. Also upthrow at low percents works better than downthrow at times.

As for your neutral - too much downsmash. use uptilt, jab, upsmash, and grab more often. You were even using downsmash to counter his spaced aerial approach, which works approximately 0% of the time. Shieldgrab, wd back - punish, etc all work -- not dsmash though.

Just my observations

 

[Gnarsty]

I bequeath you with this link: http://smashboards.com/threads/rofl-tells-you-how-to-beat-marth.91241/

 

[BestFriendJohn]

You need to mix up your approaches. Instead of always coming in with a downsmash, you were getting better results with "spacing" a ftilt. Approaching with an Upsmash on marth is rather risky due to it's limited range, if anything I'd say use WD in facing away uptilt more since it has lasting hitboxes and good priority against most of marths moves. A super solid approach is WD jab turn around grab. Against marth, never underestimate the power using your shield. Learn to WD out of shield to punish an Fsmash. Throw in a few more mixups to your neutral game by incorporating dashes along with your WD's or switch up your WD's.

Also, try to work on grabbing the ledge later to preserve invincibility frames with a WD back off stage. If you're already grabbing the ledge and the marth is getting closer, try mixing it up with falling down Bair. Remember, it's a game of king of the hill so an edgeguard means everything once you get them off stage. If he's further alway, toss out a fireball to limit his options.

If marth is resting on a platform and he's shielding with you underneath him, I'd always do a full hop nair since it has a good chance of shield poking marths feet into a juicy combo.

 

[Kale.]

As for your neutral - too much downsmash. use uptilt, jab, upsmash, and grab more often. You were even using downsmash to counter his spaced aerial approach, which works approximately 0% of the time. Shieldgrab, wd back - punish, etc all work -- not dsmash though.

In what circumstances should I be using things other than WD downsmash? I can see upsmash and uptilt as more effective in matchups where they approach in a certain way (Falcon, Fox, Peach), but when should I use it? I feel like WD downsmash and WD grab are my best bets, w/ CC to get through his aerials at an early percent. WD f-tilt doesn't become that great until it scales in knockback at higher percents.

 

[Kale.]

You need to mix up your approaches. Instead of always coming in with a downsmash, you were getting better results with "spacing" a ftilt. Approaching with an Upsmash on marth is rather risky due to it's limited range, if anything I'd say use WD in facing away uptilt more since it has lasting hitboxes and good priority against most of marths moves. A super solid approach is WD jab turn around grab. Against marth, never underestimate the power using your shield. Learn to WD out of shield to punish an Fsmash. Throw in a few more mixups to your neutral game by incorporating dashes along with your WD's or switch up your WD's.

Thanks for the reply! I've watched some of your Luigi play (set vs. M2K lol) and am a fan. Couple questions: I WD and shield with the same button. Should I drop this habit immediately or is it not that big of a deal and I just need to practice my WD OOS regardless? Do you see any general bad habits that I do, or parts of my play that I should improve on specifically? Definitely mixing up my neutral and working on reads are my big things right now...

 

[BestFriendJohn]

All that should matter is if you can release and repress your trigger button within the few frames of luigi's jump animation.

In the match you seem to have some issues DI'ing away from marth's throws, and some of his aerials. Not sure how to get that down other than good ol practice. Like what Furb18 said, air dodging is good at getting out of marths up airs ( if there's a platform). I personally try to mix it up with down-b, which is perfect for a marth that spaces well because it'll stall for a second before you fall on them, or try and risk it for the biscuit with a fast fall dair. Nair or fair, probably never. You have the right idea when you double jump with a fireball to get to the ledge, but you don't jump close to the stage and get within marths range. Just make marth respond to your fireball while you float towards the ledge. You definitely know how to mash down-b like a beast! Only other thing I can spot in terms of bad habits is that you're WD'ing in with a lot of grounded attacks (which is perfect against players who spam dash dances). Against an opponent who shields a lot, it'll give them pretty of opportunities to shield grab.

 

[Kale.]

You definitely know how to mash down-b like a beast!

LOL I'm definitely recovering a lot so I get some good practice! Years of Mario Party training.

Only other thing I can spot in terms of bad habits is that you're WD'ing in with a lot of grounded attacks (which is perfect against players who spam dash dances). Against an opponent who shields a lot, it'll give them pretty of opportunities to shield grab.

Then should I be approaching in the Marth matchup with spaced ftilt and jab-grab in addition to dsmash? I assume in other matchups I can do more SHFFLed aerials or double aerials (see: Puff, Peach, etc.) but in this matchup I don't wanna get caught in the air and only really like to jump if I can punish something OOS or followup.

 

[BestFriendJohn]

Yeah you definitely don't want to get caught in the air but it's just another tool in your toolbox to use in the case you end up getting close to a marth in shield. Marth has some very weak OOS options and luigi's double ariel pressure on shield is amazing. It catches a lot of people off guard at first, but for this match up you were playing it right. Just need to get those punishes down with some mixups as well.

 

[Kale.]

Yeah you definitely don't want to get caught in the air but it's just another tool in your toolbox to use in the case you end up getting close to a marth in shield. Marth has some very weak OOS options and luigi's double ariel pressure on shield is amazing. It catches a lot of people off guard at first, but for this match up you were playing it right. Just need to get those punishes down with some mixups as well.

This is all really great advice - can't wait to apply it all! What do you see as the BnB punishes on Marth from grab? This is what I have from ROFL's thread and my own experience:

Very low percent: d-throw upsmash
Low percent: up-throw chop (can get into uair and another chop) or d-throw fsmash if they don't di far enough away and/or it gets them offstage
Mid and high percent: d-throw fair/dair
Super high percent: B-throw or forward throw


Does this seem about right? Or are my options wrong/limited?

 

[BestFriendJohn]

Lol, I'm the worst at throws. I'd follow RoFL's guide if you want solid advice