Marth Data

[Shaya]

Jab

6.5 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle
4 / 6 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 5-8 on Jab 1, 3-6 on Jab2. Input for alternative Frame 20
Ends frame 29​

Dash Attack

6.5 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sword hits, 45° on body hits (low base knockback)
9 / 10 / 12 Damage, 0.7* / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 13-16
Ends frame 49
​

Forward Tilt

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sword hits
9 / 12 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 8-11
Ends frame 39
​

Up Tilt

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on body hits, 100° (6-8) / 85° (9-12) on Sword hits
5 / 6 / 9 Damage, 0.7* / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 6-12
Ends frame 42​

Down Tilt

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement on sword hitbox, sourspot reaches up to 4.4 units vertically; 2.7 size; 30° launch
35% chance to trip
7 / 10 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 7-8
Ends frame 23​

Forward Smash

7.3 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle
13 / 18 Damage, 0.7 / 1.5 Hit lag modifier, 0% Shuffle Modifier on Tip
Charges from 3
Hits 10-14
Ends frame 51​

Up Smash

7.3 Units Horizontal Displacement, ; 5.8 size; 90° angle
3 (feet) / 13 / 17 Damage, 0 / 0.7 / 1.5 Hit lag modifier
Charges from 5, Tipper has transcended priority
Hits 13-17
Ends frame 58​

Down Smash

7.3 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Center blade 76°/60° rest Sakurai Angle
8 / 12 Damage first, 12 /17 Damage Second 0.7 / 1.5 Hit lag modifier
Charges from 4
Hits 6-7 and 21-23
Ends frame 64​

Neutral Air

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on second hit
2 / 3, 6 / 8 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 6-7 / 15-21
Ends frame 50 ; 15 frames on landing 2-46​

Forward Air

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle
7 / 10 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 6-8
Ends frame 37; 18 frames on landing 1-35​

Back Air

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle
9 / 12 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 7-11
Ends frame 39; 19 frames on landing 3-31
​

Up Air

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; 80° sour spot / 90° tipper
9 / 12 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 Hit lag modifier
Hits 5-9
Ends frame 44; 16 frames on landing 3-37​

Down Air

6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sourspot, 90° on tipper, 270° on spike
11 / 13 / 14 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 / 1.0 Hit lag modifier
Hits 9-14. Meteor Smash hitbox on frame 11 centered on body
Ends frame 59; 28 frames on landing 3-54​

Grabs

Type | Grab Box Size | Vertical Reach | Horizontal Reach | Grabs | Ends
Standing | 3.3 | 8.0 | 4.0 - 7.7 | 7-8 | 29
Dash | 2.6 | 7.0 | 4.0 - 9.6 | 8-9 | ?
Pivot | 3.3 | 7.0 | 4.0 - 13.7 | 9-10 | ?

Pummel: Hits 6, Ends 16. 2 Damage
Foward Throw 4 DMG, 50° ; Back Throw 4 DMG, 140° ; Up Throw 4 DMG, 93° ; Down Throw 5 DMG, 100°​

~~~

 

[warionumbah2]

Thank you based shaya.

 

[Shaya]

Things you probably didn't know:

• Up Smash tipper and feet hitbox have transcended priority (meaning like Falco's lasers, they do not clash)
• Down Air's spike occurs for only 1 frame as the sword reaches downwards, and is centered on the body rather than the sword. This existed in Melee/Brawl too.
  
• Down Tilt is our shortest reach at 8.05, followed by Jab and Dash attack at 8.25 , our standard reach is 8.45, Forward and Down smash have 9.05 reach, while Up Smash has 10.2 [this isn't "range" but rather disjoint].
  
• Second hit of jab comes out in 3 frames after input (from frame 20).

 

[Foodies]

I didn't want to believe that dtilt had less range than jab

Nice data though, thanks!

 

[Shaya]

Not range. REACH/Disjoint.

Down tilt steps significantly more forward than his other moves, it definitely outranges the likes of our jab and ftilt. (edit)

 

[Foodies]

Oh I missed that part. That's what I get for skimming heh.

So "standard reach" is the disjoint on all his attacks except the ones you noted, correct?

 

[Shaya]

Yes, correct.

 

[EGEofficial]

Omg this is amazing. Thank you.

 

[iMajinBreaker]

YES. I've been looking far and wide for this. My thousand-year journey is now at an end and it would have been a thousand and one if you didn't make it.

The term 'Sakurai Angle' always makes me laugh x)

Anyways, thanks for making this!

 

[Wraeith]

Thank you, Shaya, I was waiting for a post like this to eventually come about. I may as well ask this here as opposed to anywhere else, is there any general consensus on how this data compares to Brawl Marth's range? I've heard conflicting opinions on whether or not it's misconception.

 

[Shaya]

Also another tidbit.

People who think Marth have less range than in Brawl, assuming engine specifics such as positional units are of the same scale, are mostly unfounded.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Oh wow! Thank you Shaya! Now I gotta read up on how knockback scaling/sakurai angles work. Also angles/DI in general because I clearly could be doing better.

I'll just be scrounging around the boards until I find something about it. If I find a guide I might post a link all over the place for people who don't know about these things and how they work (like myself...)

 

[Shaya]

Jab

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 5 | 4 | 29 | 6.5 | 3.5 | 8.25
Brawl | 4 | 4 | 27 | 6 | 4 | 8

Dash Attack

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 13 | 4 | 49 | 6.5 | 3.5 | 8.25
Brawl | 13 | 4 | 49 | 5.2 | 4 | 7.2

Forward Tilt

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 8 | 4 | 39 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 7 | 4 | 35 | 6.5 | 4 | 8.5

Up Tilt

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 6 | 7 | 42 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 6 | 7 | 40 | 5.1 | 3.5 | 6.85

-3%, -4% on non-tippered second half hits. Removal of 5.0 size flub box
Down Tilt

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 7 | 2 | 23 | 6.7 | 2.7 | 8.05
Brawl | 7 | 3 | 21 | 4.8 | 4.8 | 7.2

Untippered -1%
Forward Smash

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 10 | 4 | 51 | 7.3 | 3.5 | 9.05
Brawl | 10 | 4 | 49 | 9 | 3 | 10.5

-1%
Up Smash

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 13 | 5 | 58 | 7.3 | 5.8 | 10.2
Brawl | 12 | 6 | 49 | 6 | 4.9 | 8.45

-1% non-tip, 5.0 -> 5.5 feetbox size. Release is 8 frames instead of 7
Down Smash

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 6 | 2 | 64 | 7.3 | 3.5 | 9.05
Brawl | 6 | 3 | 64 | 5.2 | 4 | 7.2

-1% on second hit, first hit damage wrecked, second hit's the same duration/out. Release is 2 frames instead of 4
Neutral Air

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 6 | 15 | 50 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 6 | 15 | 49 | 3.6 | 4.8 | 6

-1%/-3% first hit, -3%/-4% second hit
Forward Air

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 6 | 3 | 37 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 4 | 4 | 33 | 5.8 | 4 | 7.8

-3%
Back Air

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 7 | 5 | 39 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 7 | 5 | 39 | 5 | 4.8 | 7.4

-2%
Up Air

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 5 | 5 | 44 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 5 | 5 | 45 | 5.5 | 4.8 | 7.9

-1%
Down Air

| Start | Duration | End | Displacement | Size | Max Reach
Smash Four | 9 | 5 | 59 | 6.7 | 3.5 | 8.45
Brawl | 6 | 4 | 59 | 5 | 4.32 | 7.16

-1% on sword hits. spike box is 6.0 -> 4.3, +1 on pos.

 

[Shaya]

Range specifics in relation to our sword have been mostly normalised. As I kinda expected, Marth's actually reaching further in this game than he did in Brawl (been telling people to stop 'thinking' that his sword was nerfed from the get go but to no avail). He does however tend to have smaller hitboxes, but I think this is compensated by hitbox priority being switched back to the way it was in melee (before, the overlap of tipper/non tipper of two 4.0 sized hitboxes would always prioritise the earlier one, which is always untipppered, now the 3.5 sizes are overlapping less, and when they do, it's giving preference to the tippers [or in the case of dair, the SPIKE!).

Biggest winner in this is regard is Neutral Air, now being roughly 2.5 units longer in reach in comparison to Brawl. Meanwhile most things have been given +1s to +1.5s in overall reach.

The big nerfs are:
Up Tilt, Forward Air, Neutral Air and Up Smash.

And auto cancel landing lag wise we all know. Here's brawl values
Nair - Auto Cancel: 1-5, 24-48 *gutted/practically non-existent *
Fair - Auto cancel: 26-32 *non-existent*
Bair - Auto Cancel: 1-6, 31-38 *besides pre-AC gone, it's otherwise THE SAME AS BRAWL*
Uair - Auto Cancel: 1-4, 26-44 *pretty gutted for any AC tricksies*
Dair - Auto Cancel: 1-5, 47-58 *practically non-existent before and now, but it killed being able to full hop dair and AC on a battlefield platform*

~i'm not going to go full depth on specials but here's something for thought~
shieldbreaker centres around the body rather than his sword in this game. His tipper hitbox is 27 units ahead and rescinds to 25. The untippered hit starts at 8 units and reaches to 20. Both hitboxes are 3.0 in size.
In Brawl hitboxes are 2.5 in size, and the displacements are 5 and 8 respectively, but centered on the sword rather than his body. Still at least a 4 unit difference in tipper positioning.

 

[kj22]

Range specifics in relation to our sword have been mostly normalised. As I kinda expected, Marth's actually reaching further in this game than he did in Brawl (been telling people to stop 'thinking' that his sword was nerfed from the get go but to no avail). He does however tend to have smaller hitboxes, but I think this is compensated by hitbox priority being switched back to the way it was in melee (before, the overlap of tipper/non tipper of two 4.0 sized hitboxes would always prioritise the earlier one, which is always untipppered, now the 3.5 sizes are overlapping less, and when they do, it's giving preference to the tippers [or in the case of dair, the SPIKE!).

Biggest winner in this is regard is Neutral Air, now being roughly 2.5 units longer in reach in comparison to Brawl. Meanwhile most things have been given +1s to +1.5s in overall reach.

The big nerfs are:
Up Tilt, Forward Air, Neutral Air and Up Smash.

And auto cancel landing lag wise we all know. Here's brawl values
Nair - Auto Cancel: 1-5, 24-48 *gutted/practically non-existent *
Fair - Auto cancel: 26-32 *non-existent*
Bair - Auto Cancel: 1-6, 31-38 *besides pre-AC gone, it's otherwise THE SAME AS BRAWL*
Uair - Auto Cancel: 1-4, 26-44 *pretty gutted for any AC tricksies*
Dair - Auto Cancel: 1-5, 47-58 *practically non-existent before and now, but it killed being able to full hop dair and AC on a battlefield platform*

~i'm not going to go full depth on specials but here's something for thought~
shieldbreaker centres around the body rather than his sword in this game. His tipper hitbox is 27 units ahead and rescinds to 25. The untippered hit starts at 8 units and reaches to 20. Both hitboxes are 3.0 in size.
In Brawl hitboxes are 2.5 in size, and the displacements are 5 and 8 respectively, but centered on the sword rather than his body. Still at least a 4 unit difference in tipper positioning.

Good findings

Ouch..
Nerfs to all his killing moves. Is it safe to say that if marth is in the air facing the oppenent he cannot kill them? (barring offstage/high percent)
So fsmash upsmash downsmash bair are pretty much his kill moves?

 

[Shaya]

I've been starting to kill with tipper neutral air as I've been using it more, the second half of the hitbox may still have larger kill power. I find that the first hit combos better than it did into brawl (i.e. people don't avoid the second hit unless they're/you're falling drastically different speeds) and it often pushes them into tipper, first hit untippered or not, could just be anecdotal whatever though. Definitely not as strong as it was in Brawl though.

I would say my common kill moves in Brawl were nair and down smash. Yeah they've both been toned down for that. Otherwise just about everything that tips can kill, at any range of "reasonable" percent.

Up Smash got lag tapped on the end for whatever reason, the feet hitbox are slightly bigger than they were in Brawl though. It's only 1 frame slower start up, seems a lot better in this game.

Dsmash tipper is still pretty good, but otherwise it's looking ideal as a punish move (8%, hits them upwards, 13 frames OoS), and if you ever find yourself hitting with the second hit, they'll likely die tipper or not.

Forward Tilt tipper is pretty easy to hit and is potent enough (more so than sour fsmash, and possibly even lucina's regular fsmash). Up Air, Back Air; nair for ledge trap KOs. Up Smash for OoS or punishing rolls/dodges (kinda), Fsmash for landing/frame traps. I've gotten early kills with tipper up tilt, but otherwise it's no longer remotely our "secretly good" kill move from Brawl, seeing as it's just a combo/frame trap move now.
Shieldbreaker tipper uncharged is strong enough to kill, hit someone near the edge with it for a stock at like 90%ish. So as a 'risky' off stage tool, it's our strongest aerial kill move.

Dancing blade kills surprisingly early, it's just a matter of comboing into the last hit, which it honestly becomes very hard to do as percent racks up. I've got some testing to go by and generally you want
DB1 -> DB2 Up ->
React to whether they pop upwards or forwards: If you vary the time (i.e. not instantly using it), you can find yourself getting forward hits at higher percent.
If they pop upwards -> STOP. It's Ftilt or up tilt freedom, and while I can't get it to show up as a true combo in training mode, you are definitely at a frame advantage stopping the upper hit here at mid-highish percent. Jump aerials work a lot but people with fast nairs can nick me first before i can get into the air.
If they pop forwards -> DB3 Forward -> Upper/Forward finisher. I find that if you get the third hit of DB3 forward, it will always combo into the final hit with precise inputs, but in some cases you may have to use the upper one over the forward one.

 

[EternalFlame]

. . .
Dancing blade kills surprisingly early, it's just a matter of comboing into the last hit, which it honestly becomes very hard to do as percent racks up. I've got some testing to go by and generally you want
DB1 -> DB2 Up ->
React to whether they pop upwards or forwards: If you vary the time (i.e. not instantly using it), you can find yourself getting forward hits at higher percent.

If they pop upwards -> STOP. It's Ftilt or up tilt freedom, and while I can't get it to show up as a true combo in training mode, you are definitely at a frame advantage stopping the upper hit here at mid-highish percent.

If they pop forwards -> DB3 Forward -> Upper/Forward finisher. I find that if you get the third hit of DB3 forward, it will always combo into the final hit with precise inputs, but in some cases you may have to use the upper one over the forward one.

Least I've got Shaya's data to back up my DB up B setup now xD (The Utilt/FTilt option that is xD)

Just be careful, as it has to be tipped to make it as safe as possible, as some with Frame 1 moves can just move forward a bit and hit you out of it. Tipping them, even at low percents, does not ensure the followup, but at least they can't hit you back. Obviously, floaty characters get out of this easier regardless of where they are hit though ^^"

 

[TheOne]

This is really helpful. Thanks!

 

[Kinslayer]

So what's the final verdict on our range? Nerfed or not nerfed?

 

[Shaya]

So what's the final verdict on our range? Nerfed or not nerfed?

BUFFED. See all the green numbers? :D
Just to cover myself, it's possible that our range could still be shorter in practise (how far marth steps forward basically), but "range" isn't too important, what's important for a character like Marth is our sword's range (i.e. disjoint). The data proves its better for most of our moves.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

 

[Clel]

I have some questions.
*How did you test the frame data?
*I really need to know what frame Marth's first hit of Dancing blade hits on, if you could get that for me it'd be amazing.
*Is every character's grab 7 frames in this game? (Like how every character had the same grab speed in Brawl)

 

[san.]

Is there any way to tell the path of the hitbox? As far as I can tell, it describes where the hitbox begins, but not the path along with the animation. Also, where does it describe if a hitbox has transcendental properties?

 

[Shaya]

I have some questions.
*How did you test the frame data?
*I really need to know what frame Marth's first hit of Dancing blade hits on, if you could get that for me it'd be amazing.
*Is every character's grab 7 frames in this game? (Like how every character had the same grab speed in Brawl)

Frame data post exists in the later pages of the coalition thread.
The fastest standing grab seems to be 7 in this game.

Is there any way to tell the path of the hitbox? As far as I can tell, it describes where the hitbox begins, but not the path along with the animation. Also, where does it describe if a hitbox has transcendental properties?

It should latch onto the bone and move with the bone itself. I.e. the hitbox latches on at 6.7 units off the centre of his sword, and stays at the same position relative to the sword no matter the animation. There are commands which have extra parameters where it describes where the hitbox displacement travels while the move is active, but this is kinda uncommon.

Transcended priority bit was listed in the character data thread in competitive, but it's sitting next to the SDI multiplier. 1 for normal, 0 for transcended.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Yo thanks for this fam. I needed this

 

[Dantarion]

How exactly do you know range data without knowing the bone positions during the animations?

 

[Shaya]

How exactly do you know range data without knowing the bone positions during the animations?

I avoid using the term "range" for that reason, it's all alignment positions in relation to his sword.
I may have mixed up the Max Reach value because I took size as circumference rather than radius (I'm not 100% sure which one it rates). But even with that in mind most values still end up with larger displacement in comparison to Brawl overall.

 

[DannyG!]

Thanks, this is really useful. Do you think you'll do this for any other characters or do you specialize in Marth?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Also another tidbit.

People who think Marth have less range than in Brawl, assuming engine specifics such as positional units are of the same scale, are mostly unfounded.

I just wanted to pose a question then.

What do you think accounts for the large amount of folks "feeling" as though there is a difference in range (on the shorter side)? This is without stating that there is or isn't, but its undeniable that the concept was widespread based on personal accounts with the new Marth early on. I'm not inclined to think it's simply a situation of a mass of people being delusional although I won't deny this doesn't occur with the Smash community lol.

I mean, regardless of the objectivity in your statements of course, if his range was only increased, you'd think most Marth mains, people who predominantly play the character often and should really know the character well enough, would instead notice that, as opposed to supposing a nerf.

 

[theleeryone]

Dang. How long did it take to gather all this info? Thanks a lot.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I just wanted to pose a question then.

What do you think accounts for the large amount of folks "feeling" as though there is a difference in range (on the shorter side)? This is without stating that there is or isn't, but its undeniable that the concept was widespread based on personal accounts with the new Marth early on. I'm not inclined it's simply a situation of a mass of people being delusional although I won't deny this doesn't occur with the Smash community lol.

I mean, regardless of the objectivity in your statements of course, if his range was only increased, you'd think most Marth mains, people who predominantly play the character often, would instead notice that, as opposed to supposing a nerf.

Two main reasons that I see.

First and foremost, Marth's body doesn't move behind his attacks in the same way as it does in Brawl or Melee/PM. Look at how much he extends for his old fsmash for example. His front foot extends a good distance forward, he leans in aggressively such that his front shoulder is basically over his toes, and his hand extends a bit in front of his feet. He doesn't extend nearly as much in SSB4. This is much more difficult to adjust to because it lacks clear, ever-present visual cues the way a change in sword length would, and it does impact his range from a given position. So you'll see people swing for where their brain is saying the attack will hit based on years of training... and it whiffs.

Fsmash doubles down in this respect since it evidently has less reach. I guess other moves generally get a bit more reach on the sword itself, but it still doesn't line up with what your brain expects. Not sure how it shakes out for the aerials off hand, I haven't compared them as closely as I have his grounded moves.

If you just play SSB4 or are picking up Marth for the first time then this is a nonissue, but for those juggling multiple iterations of Marth it can be problematic. If I end up completely dropping Marth in SSB4, that will ultimately be the main reason why (the other admittedly being that I miss the flow of his aerial game when playing SSB4). It's incredibly difficult for me to play both PM and SSB4 Marth at a decent level (even worse if I try to quickly jump between the two), and I'm far less inclined to drop PM Marth. I'd also argue the new animations are somewhat unintuitive (Ike's dtilt is another one, why is he swinging so close to his feet?), but that might be subjective.

Second, his range feels very... unexceptional. I don't know how else to describe it. Many characters can do similar things from similar ranges. This isn't a huge deal from a functional standpoint, but when a kick trades with your sword swing or you get outranged by someone's elbow it has a certain psychological impact.

 

[Flamecircle]

I just wanted to pose a question then.

What do you think accounts for the large amount of folks "feeling" as though there is a difference in range (on the shorter side)? This is without stating that there is or isn't, but its undeniable that the concept was widespread based on personal accounts with the new Marth early on. I'm not inclined it's simply a situation of a mass of people being delusional although I won't deny this doesn't occur with the Smash community lol.

I mean, regardless of the objectivity in your statements of course, if his range was only increased, you'd think most Marth mains, people who predominantly play the character often, would instead notice that, as opposed to supposing a nerf.

I believe it's a combination of a thicker sword creating an illusion, and what appears to be an actual F-smash range nerf going by the table Shaya posted. Since it's so central to his killing game, people probably focus their expectations on it.

 

[Shaya]

Hitboxes are smaller than Brawl, and as they're circles they can easily miss at certain angles.
Brawl marth had three hitboxes on his sword for most attacks; these overlapped a lot, in Smash 4 he usually has one less, tippers are more pronounced but 'hit consistency' is less.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@sephirothken stop lurking homie.

I see you. lol

 

[XenobladeVersus]

Deleted due to double post

 

[XenobladeVersus]

How do the active frames compare for default Counter and Iai Counter? Does Iai Counter enter active frames sooner than regular Counter?

I'm having a bit of trouble with the timing on Iai Counter, though I haven't used it outside of Classic mode. I've just stayed with regular other then for Master Hand & Master Core as it tends to miss. I wonder if it might be worth it to switch

Spoiler: Context

Played against an AI Marth who had Iai Counter and it seemed like it might have a faster startup. It looked like it may be possible to activate Iai counter on reaction to the opponent's attacks if reflexes are good enough. Almost like a Just Impact in Soul Caliber.

I am still getting used to gameplay in Smash 4 so the A.I. was only on Level 6. They managed to get on-reaction Counters against Ftilt, dash attack and SHFF Nair/Fair from Shulk. The counter worked when activated after Shulk's attack started. They shouldn't have super reflexes at Lv.6. Perhaps Iai Counter is the overall best. A super quick counter that can be activated just before being hit(less than a second before) likely would be the best in the game.

Two main reasons that I see.


First and foremost, Marth's body doesn't move behind his attacks in the same way as it does in Brawl or Melee/PM. Look at how much he extends for his old fsmash for example. His front foot extends a good distance forward, he leans in aggressively such that his front shoulder is basically over his toes, and his hand extends a bit in front of his feet. He doesn't extend nearly as much in SSB4. This is much more difficult to adjust to because it lacks clear, ever-present visual cues the way a change in sword length would, and it does impact his range from a given position. So you'll see people swing for where their brain is saying the attack will hit based on years of training... and it whiffs.


Fsmash doubles down in this respect since it evidently has less reach. I guess other moves generally get a bit more reach on the sword itself, but it still doesn't line up with what your brain expects. Not sure how it shakes out for the aerials off hand, I haven't compared them as closely as I have his grounded moves.


If you just play SSB4 or are picking up Marth for the first time then this is a nonissue, but for those juggling multiple iterations of Marth it can be problematic. If I end up completely dropping Marth in SSB4, that will ultimately be the main reason why (the other admittedly being that I miss the flow of his aerial game when playing SSB4). It's incredibly difficult for me to play both PM and SSB4 Marth at a decent level (even worse if I try to quickly jump between the two), and I'm far less inclined to drop PM Marth. I'd also argue the new animations are somewhat unintuitive (Ike's dtilt is another one, why is he swinging so close to his feet?), but that might be subjective.


Second, his range feels very... unexceptional. I don't know how else to describe it. Many characters can do similar things from similar ranges. This isn't a huge deal from a functional standpoint, but when a kick trades with your sword swing or you get outranged by someone's elbow it has a certain psychological impact.

I agree with this quite a bit, though I'd like to hopefully stay maining Marth or have him as secondary. I'm really not sure where he'll end up on the tier list but he's still fun to play.

@sephirothken stop lurking homie.


I see you. lol

Wow, isn't he the guy who was a world champion in Melee as Marth?

I would love to see what he thinks about Smash 4 Marth! It would be incredible if he could give insight into strategy.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Question, what is displacement?

So from what I understand, the sword lengths are overall increased. But his body extends a bit further than it did in Brawl, making it feel like he has less range (because the difference between your attack's hitbox and your body where they can hit you is less)?

Also sort of disappointed the attacks actually cover less area. From the visuals it looked like they were going for a more flexible Marth, where the attacks (aerials especially) covered more area, while slowing him down slightly so he's more about the spacing and punishing than the rush down. But if the range is actually buffed, that's cool.

Another question: it seems like Marth is slightly shorter/smaller in this game. Does this effect his range? Maybe Smash 4 Marth has better range than Brawl Marth, but relatively compared to other character's sizes and their attacks in Smash 4, is it actually "buffed"?

 

[arcnormal]

How do the active frames compare for default Counter and Iai Counter? Does Iai Counter enter active frames sooner than regular Counter?

I'm having a bit of trouble with the timing on Iai Counter, though I haven't used it outside of Classic mode. I've just stayed with regular other then for Master Hand & Master Core as it tends to miss. I wonder if it might be worth it to switch

Spoiler: Context

Played against an AI Marth who had Iai Counter and it seemed like it might have a faster startup. It looked like it may be possible to activate Iai counter on reaction to the opponent's attacks if reflexes are good enough. Almost like a Just Impact in Soul Caliber.

I am still getting used to gameplay in Smash 4 so the A.I. was only on Level 6. They managed to get on-reaction Counters against Ftilt, dash attack and SHFF Nair/Fair from Shulk. The counter worked when activated after Shulk's attack started. They shouldn't have super reflexes at Lv.6. Perhaps Iai Counter is the overall best. A super quick counter that can be activated just before being hit(less than a second before) likely would be the best in the game.

I agree with this quite a bit, though I'd like to hopefully stay maining Marth or have him as secondary. I'm really not sure where he'll end up on the tier list but he's still fun to play.



Wow, isn't he the guy who was a world champion in Melee as Marth?

I would love to see what he thinks about Smash 4 Marth! It would be incredible if he could give insight into strategy.

Ken has stated in an interview that Smash 4 Marth was incredibly disappointing for him, due to the lack of options he has compared to Melee or even Brawl. (Like 2 fairs in one jump). He also said that if he wanted to continue with Smash 4, he would not be using Marth and that Marth is probably "mid-low tier". If you want to see his tips on Marth, he has a youtube channel with some guides.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ken is not the man you want to talk too if you want Marth advice in this game.

Not because he lacks skill, but because he doesnt like the character in this game and most likely does not intend to train with him or push him to the limit.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Guys, actually Ken is maining marth. He's been streaming smash 4 and marth is his, at the least, the character he "wants to play".

If I'm not mistaken that interview and what he said was from months ago. His opinions have probably changed a lot since then. For example it's not just marth but actually in general the ground game being emphasized more this time.

But yea if you wanna see a good Marth, Mr E. is showing Marth may be good after all.
You could watch all the games but the last game he rekt M2K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsgNI_nn2c#t=1249

 

[Satan-]

Guys, actually Ken is maining marth. He's been streaming smash 4 and marth is his, at the least, the character he "wants to play".

If I'm not mistaken that interview and what he said was from months ago. His opinions have probably changed a lot since then. For example it's not just marth but actually in general the ground game being emphasized more this time.

But yea if you wanna see a good Marth, Mr E. is showing Marth may be good after all.
You could watch all the games but the last game he rekt M2K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsgNI_nn2c#t=1249

I was gonna make a decently lengthed post but I got lazy.... Basically, Mr E isn't as good as most people think he is..

Anyways, on topic; thanks for the frame data. This will be very helpful. Glad to see I was right about his sword being longer than it was in Brawl. Again, thanks for the frame data :]