Mario - Roy Match-Up Discussion

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Navigation Links​

• The Directory
• Mario Matchup Thread

Roy Frame Data References​

• KuroganeHammer's Roy Frame Data
• Mastercore v3 Roy Dump [1.1.1]
• LordWilliam1234's Roy Frame Data Reference [1.11]

Mario Frame Data References​

• KuroganeHammer's Mario Frame Data
• Mastercore v3 Mario Dump [1.1.1]
• [mario_dokan] [mario_fireball] [mario_hugeflame] [mario_mantle] [mario_pump] [mario_pumpwater]
• LordWilliam1234's Mario Frame Data Reference [1.11]

 

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General Posting Guidelines​

• Quality Posts: Post relavant, detailed responses when possible. Avoid posting simple matchup ratios/scores. Providing data or tournament replays to support your post is always appreciated.
• Civil Discussion: A discussion has more value when conducted in a civil manner than one with personal attacks. Please stay respectful of other posters.
• Full Potential: Always assume that both characters are being played to their full potential. Don't base your position on sub standard play.

Analysis Guidelines​

• The Overall Matchup Score: Which character has the advantage over the other, and by how much. See below for definitions.
• How The Matchup Should Be Optimally Played: How to fight the opponent more efficiently and deal with them. General do's and don'ts of the matchup.
• Relavant Data: Frame data and tournament replays, among other things.
• Stage Choice: Which stages should be chosen against the opponent, and which stages should be avoided. Also, how the stage elements factor in to the matchup.

Gameplay states to consider in your analysis​

• Neutral - Neither character have any significant positional advantages
  
• Roy at an Advantage - How does Roy establish an advantageous postion, and how does he optimize keeping his opponent at a disadvantage?
  
• Roy at a Disadvantage - How does Roy minimize damage while at a disadvantage (i.e. optimal DI while getting combo'd / juggled), and what tools can he use to escape?
• Roy Edge/Ledge guarding - What tools does the opponent have while recovering, and how does Roy convert edge guards into stocks?
  
• Roy on Recovery - What edge/ledge guarding tools does the opponent have, and how does Roy avoid them while recovering?
  
• Roy far away from the opponent - What tools does the opponent have when Roy is far away from them, and how does Roy optimally close the distance? Is this a neutral position, or disadvantageous to Roy?
  
• Roy at mid range away from the opponent - What tools does Roy and the opponent have when Roy is mid range away from them, and what can Roy do to convert into an advantageous position?
  
• Roy in close combat - What close combat tools does Roy and the opponent have? Is this a more advantageous position for Roy or the opponent, and what should Roy do to space optimally to convert into an advantageous position?

Matchup Scoring​

+4 = decisive advantage for Roy
+3 = large advantage for Roy
+2 = medium advantage for Roy
+1 = small advantage for Roy
±0 = even or insignificant (dis)advantages for Roy
-1 = small disadvantage for Roy
-2 = medium disadvantage for Roy
-3 = large disadvantage for Roy
-4 = decisive disadvantage for Roy

 

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Score|
Overall|-1
Neutral|0
Roy at Advantage|+1
Roy at Disadvantage|-2
Roy Edge/Ledge guarding|+1
Roy on Recovery|-1
Far Away|-1
Mid Range|+1
Close Combat|0

Preferable Stage Choices:

Stages that do not allow for ladder combos and give Roy plenty of room to move around (i.e. Final Destination, Town and City)

Stages to Avoid:

- Stages that allow for ladder combos like Battle Field and Dreamland

Notable Posts:

-

 

[LordTakeo]

TL;DR -
Well, I don't know if I should post about it, but heck, every information is valueable.
I had problems with Mario, he just rushes in, blocks of most of your follow-ups with nair, annoys you with fireball, and forces you to be very careful with recovering thanks to cape and the fludd.
We are a fast faller, and get easily combo'd early game, which is honestly a pain in the ass. He just has to spam "A" to get out of most of our attacks, be in Nair or his jab, as soon as he can throw it out, you will get interrupted and hit.

The only advantage we really have is out immense killpower and minorly better range.

I'd personally say -1,5, since out recovery isn't the best, and Mario can make it even worse. But it can also just be that I am simply too bad, and I can't bring out Roy's potential as much. But generally, -1 to -1,5.

Edit: The long version including every point will follow soon.

 

[Mega-Xander]

Mario and Roy are both really fun to play (and can be really frustrating to fight)! But in my experience playing as both characters I would say mario has the better matchup.

Long Range: Roy does not have a projectile. While Roy is fast, he will potentially have to deal with fireball camping, which can be annoying to deal with... -1

When Roy is at Mid range from Mario I'd say Roy has the advantage. Mario has a projectile in his fire ball, but it has landing lag and with Roy's speed he'll be able to punish it easily. Not only that but Roy has a disjoint on all of his moves so he can out space Mario +2

Close Combat: Roy has much worse frame data than mario. Mario's slowest aerial comes out at frame 16, but Mario will very rarely use his forward air in close combat. Mario's Neutral air comes out at Frame 3, U-air is frame 4, D-air frame 5, and B-air frame 6. Roy's fastest aerial is his U-air which comes out at frame 5, but is not necessarily his best. On the other hand, Roy has his incredibly powerful sweet spot which can really put on the damage and push Mario far enough that it can get him back into the mid range. Just try not to get comboed... the fast falling does not help. -1.

in terms of edge guarding Mario... It's going to be pretty hard especially considering the speed of mario's up-B. But Mario's recovery move has about the same range as Roy's. If you can catch Mario's second jump you're good, but it's going to be hard to catch Mario while he's recovering.

I haven't played against Mario on enough stages, but Mario thrives on the platforms on Battlefield and Dreamland, and he can use them to extend the already long combos he has against you. Final destination, while there's not way to mix up your recovery/landing, with B-reverses and fastfalling you should be able to get back. And Mario can't extend his combos high enough to kill you off the ceiling.
In my opinion:

Advantage-Roy: Final Destination, Smashville
Advantage Mario: Battlefield/Dreamland, Town and City, Delphino plaza

I'd say the match up is 55:45
given that MArio can combo Roy into oblivion, but Roy can kill mario really early

 

[Xeze]

Mario main here.

I believe the MU is slightly in Mario's favor. Unlike Marth, Roy gets less reward for spacing his moves. In close range, Mario is scary with his combo game. Being a fast faller doesn't help Roy either.
Recovery-wise, both have their problems. Roy can gimp Mario with fair or nair, while Mario can do the same with cape, FLUDD and bair. Even a well placed nair can do the trick. Also due to Roy's limited recovery options, Mario can get easy KOs after a successful ledge trump (watch out for a well timed counter though).
Roy's main advantage over Mario is his imense kill power. F-smash can kill a very low %, specially with rage involved. Up smash is also scary, specially when getting up the ledge with a jump. And don't forget f-tilt that has good kill power when hit with the sweetspot.

I'd say the MU is 45:55 .

 

[ArikadoSD]

Never take mario to dream land or battlefield, worst stages ever for this matchup. He can literally kill us from one grab at maybe 20% with his ladder combos. The flatter the stage, the better. T&C would probably be my pick for early up b oos kills.

 

[miniada]

I main mario and think it's
55:45
mario can combo roy into oblivion dye to his fast falling speed. Fludd is a good tool to mess up roys spacing. Mario has better frame data and mobility so his move ir more safe. Roy can't combo mario due to mario having nair and up b. Both gimp pretty well roy has nair and bair and mario has cape and fludd. Roy has more power than mario but can still get killed earlier if he gets ledge trumped.

 

[Gidy]

I main both and I can comfortably say that Mario vs. Roy is a solid 4-6. You have to space out Mario well and just use Roys anti grab to keep mario out (dtilt, spaced nair, empty hops.) Mario's stubbiness and Roys Disjoint makes it so that this is possible but you have to be safe. This disjoint can even challange Mario's most potent kill move, Usmash since the sword goes past the invisibility and in the hurtbox.

The only part where Roy gets completely screwed is offstage. Fludd cape is very dangerous and sometimes it makes you take the risk of Up B-ing high at times to avoid getting gimped.

 

[Jenna Zant]

Despite this matchup being at a disadvantage for Roy, I'd say it's still better than the Mario vs Pikachu matchup. Roy's attacks are slower than Mario's and Roy lacks a projectile. You have to be very careful offstage. Windboxes are a pretty big enemy of ours, and Mario isn't exactly lacking in windboxes and edgeguarding options. Poking with d-tilt is pretty useful, as well as well spaced fairs and nairs. Just perfect shield his fireballs and be wary of the cape and fludd, and you should be good.

 

[EnGarde]

Neutral: 0 (maybe +1 in the future)

Spoiler

Roy should use his longest ranged and fastest pokes while playing the neutral game, specifically shff nair, dtilt, and jab. Properly spaced tipped shff nair (must fast fall! And I mean the very tip!) is safe on shield, as is dtilt. Roy should try to stay around mid range from Mario, close enough that fireballs can be punished, but far enough away to stay out range of Mario's pokes. At this distance, Roy can set up a wall, making it difficult for Mario to get in. Try to use these safe options and Roy's speed to pressure and establish stage control, and force Mario to commit to options.

Dance trots can be used to bait out options (specifically dash out dance trot dash in, or dash in dance trot out dance trot in) however excessive foxtrots and dance trots should not be used, as it becomes more difficult to shield fireballs effectively (which the Mario can do to force you to approach if you spend too much time messing around). You can still jump out of dance trot, but iirc depending on where the fireball is in its trajectory (it bounces up and down lol), you need to full hop it to guarantee you get over it. The next frontier here is perfect pivot dtilts, especially out of dance trot. That'll open up new spacing options, which could skew the MU more in Roy's favor in the future.

Roy at Advantage: +1

Spoiler

While Mario does have nair to help break him out of combos, the nair can be baited out and punished. At mid-high percents, Mario must DI into Roy's combo moves in order to actually hit Roy out of the followup, and if the Mario isn't careful, they could find themselves eating a bigger punish for trying it. Nairplanes (nair > nair) can be especially effective, due to the reach. Nairplanes are not that hard to set up, as we can get it off a solid nair hit confirm in the neutral, allowing us to also establish stage control. We also have setups that can kill, which helps bring the MU into balance.

The real advantage we have here is that we can deal more damage with less hits, especially with sweet spot hits. Mario needs to get into sweetspot range in order to do work, where a mistake can be deadly, especially when Roy has rage.

Roy at Disadvantage: -2

Spoiler

Because Roy is a fast-faller, he is prone to eating combos, something Mario excels at. There are certain percents where Mario combos can deal 20%+ at minimum, and up to 30 or 40% with sub-optimal DI, with no platform assists. We can mitigate this with good DI plus uair (frame 5, okay but not great), however we need to be super vigilant to escape without losing half a stock lol. Don't try and use counter to combo break, counter frames aren't active until frame 8, which is generally too late to combo break, but it can sometimes prevent you getting landing trapped by upsmash (heavily punishable if you get baited). Don't be afraid to go for the ledge to avoid landing traps like running upsmash.

The one benefit is that Mario struggles somewhat with getting the kill, so if you can space him out and not get edge-guarded, you can live for a long time.

Roy Edge/Ledge Guarding: +1

Spoiler

Our edge guarding options are good, but not great. We can try to fair or nair offstage to knock them away, or try for a bair stage spike if they're low. Roy's dair spike is strong, and can dunk even at low percents. Roy is a fast-faller, so we only get 1 or maybe 2 edge-guarding options from the time we choose to go off-stage before we're forced to up+b back up, and we don't have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to mistakes, or mis-guessing what the Mario is going to do. However, with good timing and a good read on the opponent's recovery habits, we can generally secure a stock by going off-stage. It should only be done as a mixup, though.

Roy has several options to ledge guard. Our neutral b, flare blade, makes excellent flare bait, has a somewhat lasting hitbox, and can catch the normal getup frames of vulnerability, with good predictive timing. Short hop nair can also catch a lot of getup options as well, to put Mario back off-stage. Dance trot baits are also pretty effective, especially if the mario is prone to getup attack or drop down double jump attack or air dodge options when returning to stage. Spaced utilt is a great option to cover ledge rolls as well.

Roy on Recovery -1

Spoiler

People always underestimate Roy's recovery lol. It's below average, for sure, however, a smart Roy can make gimping difficult. Up+b doesn't have the same benefits on recovery as it does grounded (no super armor, reduced knockback), but it is still angleable, and it has a super generous ledge snap. It can stage spike, however, with good spacing, Mario will often be popped up by the knockback instead of stage spiked. If the Roy chooses to go low and doesn't miss the ledge snap, fludd on stage isn't very effective.

Gimping becomes a serious concern at higher percents when hit by a move that has a low KB angle, when you have to use your double jump to get into distance to up+b. This means you're commited to a low recovery, which means the Mario can more easily run off cape/nair or try for a fair dunk on you, and you have limited options to escape that. Moves with a higher KB angle plus Roy's excellent aerial mobility means that you can generally drift into recovery distance from even to or above stage level, where you can choose your recovery attempt (early up+b, late up+b, double jump to stage) without using your double jump, which means you can gauge the Mario's edgeguarding choices, and if you guess wrong, you still have your double jump, which you can use to recover while Mario is still in a commited state and in need of recovering himself.

Roy Long Range: -1

Spoiler

Mario has a projectile and we do not, which forces us to approach. Mario does not have a mobility advantage, however, so with basic power shielding, Roy can easily close into mid range, and neutral.

Roy Mid Range +1

Spoiler

This is where we want to be. This is where our neutral is. We can use our spacing moves to poke and harrass the Mario safely. The goal here isn't to approach, but rather to make it difficult for the Mario to approach while closing off stage space. Mario's goal at this range is to get in and start a combo on us. Bait his approach and punish.

Roy Close Range 0

Spoiler

Mario has a lot of fast close range moves, so Roy doesn't want to linger in this range unless on a punish. He has the mobility to space out, and if he does get trapped in shield, he has options to break out. Specifically, super armor on grounded up+b makes it a reliable oos option that can kill at mid-high percents. It's frame 4, so Mario jab can still catch it depending on timing, but it's still a pretty reliable option. It can also be angled, so if Mario isn't directly on top of Roy, it can still catch him.

If Mario commits to the wrong option at this range, he can also find himself eating a sweetspot ftilt or utilt, both of which can kill at mid-high percents, as well as other strong sweetspot options. Mario wants to get in, because the reward can be great, especially if he gets a good combo going on Roy, but it also has a lot of risk, as a mistake at this range means eating a sweetspot punish.

Overall Total: -1 (Slight Advantage Mario)
tl;dr We want to wall Mario out in the neutral with spaced shff nair, dtilt, and jab and mix in dance trots and empty hops sparingly to bait out options. In advantage we have to watch out for Mario's nair (a combo breaker), but some of our combo moves use our disjointed ranged attacks, such as nair, which are harder to break out of. In disadvantage, we need to be on point with our DI and try to use uair to break out of combos, but Mario still can get a lot of damage on us. Don't try to counter out. Watch out for upsmash in particular. We can edge-guard as a mixup, but it can be risky. We have good ledge-guarding tools, including shff nair, neutral b, dance trot at the ledge to bait an option, and utilt. We have below average recovery, but we can still mixup options so long as we retain our double jump for as long as possible, since our up+b is angleable and has a generous auto-snap. In the long range, Mario has a projectile which forces us to approach, we have more spacing options in the mid range that Mario must work to get past, and close range Mario can start combos or use his fast pokes and combo starters, but a mistake is dangerous because that's sweetspot range.

Stages that favor Roy:
Stages that do not have platforms that easily allow ladder combos, and give us freedom to move around, like Town and City, and Final Destination.

Stages that favor Mario:
Stages that allow ladder combos, like BF and Dreamland.

 

[ligersandtigons]

how do i escape mario's up tilts when i have a fresh stock?

like should i di up and away, and wait for the opportunity to jump out've it? can you sdi out've up tilt chains? what about fast fall shield?

i would love to test this out myself but i dont really have anyone i can lab with, hence why I need you guys lol

 

[ArcanaXIII]

how do i escape mario's up tilts when i have a fresh stock?

like should i di up and away, and wait for the opportunity to jump out've it? can you sdi out've up tilt chains? what about fast fall shield?

i would love to test this out myself but i dont really have anyone i can lab with, hence why I need you guys lol

I don't think you can, and if you can, it's especially hard for Roy. I've tried doing SDIs, mashing Counter, mashing up B, aerials, and jump. The best option definitely seems to be jump with proper upward DI/vectoring, but the jump MUST be timed correctly or you WILL lose it in the barrage of Utilts from Mario, leaving you open for practically anything from Mario. Counter also seems to be a decent option for Marios that go crazy with their Utilts and don't really know when to stop, but it's also terribly risky.

Honestly, I feel like Roy is just gonna have to hold that 60-70%, but I'm still trying see if jumps with proper upward DI works.

 

[Seraphim.]

If you are at low %'s like 0~10 just Di down and shield to stop the Uptilt juggles. If you are higher than that just wait until you can jump out, be careful not to jump too early or else Mario will get big damage.