• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

[MU] Mario

skydogc

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
730
NNID
Skydog
So this is more just a question about Marios in the here and now; how do we matchup with Mario?
I ask because for the first time in any smash game, I'm actually having some trouble with Mario. I really can't put my finger on what's changed about him, but I'm curious for opinions.
Don't get me wrong, it's usually a knockdown, drag-out with a good Mario, but I'll be darned if he doesn't just like to dish out some heavy damage.

I'm not sure if anyone has encountered this or not, but it's strange to me and I'd definitely appreciate some insight while I'm training to improve my game. Plus, I did notice that on the matchup page, there wasn't one for Mario yet, so might as well ask.
In a sense, I'm kinda hoping that if I'm having some problems with Mario, then there must be a flaw in my playstyle overall that I just haven't caught yet (which means I can correct it in time).

Appreciate the feedback and insight in advance! :D
 
Last edited:

Demacrez

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
328
Location
Spring, Texas --- The Samurai District
NNID
Demacrez
3DS FC
3583-0929-3994
My only issue I have against Mario is his grab setup. He'll throw you down and UTilt for two to three hits they'll be really bad for Link.

His cape is also a problem when it comes to projectile spam since he'll reflect it well. His aerial fireball as well as SH DAir are also really good against us. The only thing I can think of to counter this is ZAir and jabs.

I don't get to face enough good Marios to figure out the best options. I only got to play against one but the lag was screwing with pin point attacks.

I hope that helps.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
780
Mario is annoying as hell to deal with. He can camp his fireballs well enough to nullify our zoning game, so we have a hard time forcing him to approach, and even if we manage it, he has safe approaches. He's fast and he can combo, and kill us.
 

Dumbfire

Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
2,397
Location
The Netherlands
NNID
AncientSunlight
I really dislike playing Mario too. His strings from grab easily get me to mid-percentages, and his tilts and air game wreck me. There are a few neat videos in the video thread of the Mario MU, which might benefit you.
 

Elessar

Nouyons TO
Joined
Apr 20, 2010
Messages
2,624
Location
Paraguay
NNID
Veritiel
3DS FC
3711-8466-0515
A good Mario can be hell since he can rack over 40 damage easily after a grab and get you off stage.

Now, concerning his Cape and camping, I don't struggle that much with them. What I do is usually punish their fireballs with my bombs by either jumping and throwing the bombs at them or clashing the fireball with the bomb. The bomb still takes priority so it will keep going until it either hits Mario or it falls to the floor. Pairing this with our Dash Attack, which when we'll timed and spaced can jump over the fireball when it bounces, can lead to some very powerful punishes.

As to the Cape, I usually bait it with bombs followed by a full hop arrow or gale. The bomb will get reflected, but the arrow or gale will connect, and when spaced correctly the full hop will evade the bomb. You can fast fall to keep the pressure or double jump and take out another bomb to continue spamming. As always, the problem is that if you do this too much you will get punished. It is though a nice way to condition Mario to not use the Cape as much, specially since if well done you can punish them after the Cape punish by zoning in with a Dash attack, grab, or more projectiles.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
852
Mario seems to be a very grab happy character. I have a lot of trouble with him myself. Especially if it's a good one.

Only thing I can say is try to read his million grabs and Dodge it... still trying to figure out ways around him
 

skydogc

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
730
NNID
Skydog
Appreciate the input folks!

A good Mario can be hell since he can rack over 40 damage easily after a grab and get you off stage.

Now, concerning his Cape and camping, I don't struggle that much with them. What I do is usually punish their fireballs with my bombs by either jumping and throwing the bombs at them or clashing the fireball with the bomb. The bomb still takes priority so it will keep going until it either hits Mario or it falls to the floor. Pairing this with our Dash Attack, which when we'll timed and spaced can jump over the fireball when it bounces, can lead to some very powerful punishes.

As to the Cape, I usually bait it with bombs followed by a full hop arrow or gale. The bomb will get reflected, but the arrow or gale will connect, and when spaced correctly the full hop will evade the bomb. You can fast fall to keep the pressure or double jump and take out another bomb to continue spamming. As always, the problem is that if you do this too much you will get punished. It is though a nice way to condition Mario to not use the Cape as much, specially since if well done you can punish them after the Cape punish by zoning in with a Dash attack, grab, or more projectiles.
Hey thanks, Elessar, I really appreciate that. It does seem like zoning has been the biggest problem I've had, and since I haven't to control spacing as well, it's been tough to stop an approach well to set up the battle on my terms. I'll test that out next time and work around their fireball camping and cape work better.

Mario seems to be a very grab happy character. I have a lot of trouble with him myself. Especially if it's a good one.

Only thing I can say is try to read his million grabs and Dodge it... still trying to figure out ways around him
Throw/Flood Gun gets old fast. I did figure out that Zair, quick Dsmash on approach, or a well placed Boomerang or Dtilt Boomerang can slow it. I got fairly good at dodging and countering after playing against a bunch of grab-happy characters, but still, Mario holds a special place of annoying for it haha.

As a separate question, has anyone faced any super air focused Marios - as in their whole game is based around approaching from the sky? They're odd. I'm just curious.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
852
I faced one but he got demolished. It was definitely a break from the D-Throw into up-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt into B-throw into Charged fludd into cape attack
 

Zane the pure

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
519
Location
The Hyperbolic "Do Work" chamber
I seem to fair better against Mario than most, but I have a neat habit of nullifying fireballs with N-air or Z-air on approach. Important to remember: Our bombs can eat a couple fireballs, so it's not half bad to Z-airdrop a bomb really low to the ground and not have to worry about low fireballs for a bit. I'll run a couple sets with a pal of mine later today, and I should have plenty to share.
 

Bdude

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Saskatchewan, Canada
NNID
BdudeGames
I'm currently working on all the characters so this will be a work in progress and I will be changing info as needed. But here is what I have right now. I'm not saying it's all right so that's why I want it to be discussed :)

Link vs Mario MU
MU Ratio 50/50
General MU: Very much a cat and mouse game. We usually want to throw out projectiles, and Mario wants to cape them back. So we can use this to our advantage. Spacing out your physical attacks and zair can create your openings. Bombs should mostly be used to punish a baited cape or to stop fireballs.
Pros: We out space Mario's physical moves, bombs will out prioritize fireballs, can easily gimp off stage if Mario's second jump is stolen, dair bounces off fireballs, zair eats the fireballs, nair eats the fireballs,
Cons: Mario can cape all of Link's projectiles, close combat pressure from Mario is high, Mario's dair can go through tossed bombs, Mario has a higher ground/air speed mobility than Link,
Neutral Game: Stay in mid range if you can. At early percents we know Mario will be looking for the dthrow to utilt string, so retreating zairs are quite useful. Having a bomb in hand will force Mario to stay back a bit even if we don't throw it. Unless Mario is slow on the cape, laying the bomb on the ground isn't a bad idea when it's near exploding. If Mario starts dairing the bombs, start short hopping and throwing them down as the explosion will still damage him. Watch for the disjointed Fsmash as the range is further than one would expect!

Combo Game: The early percent grab for both characters can serve a problem for the opposition. Mario's requires less of a read, but off a good read Link's dthrow to utilt to nair/utilt/usmash/fair can deal the same if not more damage. Be ready for conversions off zair connections or FF Nairs. We can rack up a decent amount of damage off of just those two moves.

Ledge/Recovery Game: Try to steal Mario's double jump with a projectile throw. I wouldn't challenge the UpB of Mario's as there is a potenial stage spike opportunity for him. Granted if Mario is low enough you can throw a bomb on the edge of the stage to catch it with an aerial and attack Mario down low (can UpB before bomb explosion, UpB again after bomb explosion to get back) but this is a risky play. I would generally try to hit Mario under the ledge with an ftilt or dash attack if timed right, and setup with bombs thrown into the air and try to read a ledge getup/jump/roll. Nair gimps aren't a bad idea as a mixup, especially if you hit it on the startup of the move as it has kill potential.

Stage Selections: I'm going to just give the stage a personal rating and a quick two sentence as to why and we can discuss the stages a bit more per MU.

Battlefield: 7/10 Can shark and setup with C4's lots, we have the ability to swing under the stage is need be, throws can land Mario onto platforms for extra easy damage.
Final Destination: 9/10 easy spacing with zair and aerials, Mario is forced to try to approach which we can try to stop relatively easy with these tools.
Delfino's Plaza: 7/10 Our kill power on top and on side makes transition kills pretty early, same goes for Mario as well though, so be mindful and pick your spots. Mario can bthrow on walkoffs for an easy kill.
Halberd: 5/10 The stage hazards can ruin some setups, early kills on top can happen, ledges with tether recovery on the ship can cause Link to randomly fall for some reason (still need to look into this, instead of getting onto the stage again I just fell...)
Lylat: 6/10 Can hit platforms easily, tilts of the stage can mess a guys day up.
Town and City: 9/10 Lots of space to move around and keep Mario at bay, projectiles are slightly safer here as a short hop arrow reflected won't always reach Link again, so can be used as a mixup. Sides are also closer in for ftilt/fsmash/dash attack kills.
Smashville: 9/10 A nice flat stage with the platform for mixups. Good neutral stage, no really early kills on this stage though.
Duck Hunt: 7/10 For this MU this stage isn't fantastic. The ducks can get in the way of the few projectiles we will throw, the sides are pretty far out and since we are going to be spacing aerials and zair more the fight will be super slow on this stage.
Dreamland: 7/10 Like battlefield, just add the wind gusts in there. Kills will happen a bit later as the blast zones seem to be further out.
Miiverse: 7/10 Essentially the same as battlefield without the janky ledges.
Castlesiege: 6/10 Again, Mario can kill easily with bthrow on the walkoff portion, I'm just not a big fan of this stage so usually ban it if I feel someone is going to pick it.

*most of these are subjective and up for discussion, so let me know what you want added or talk about why certain stages might be better than what I say*

Kill Percentages: All kills are on Battlefield Omega, DI was by level 9 CPU, no rage and moves were fresh. Side kills were about a ledge roll away from the ledge. Rule of thumb for stage selection is moves will kill +/- 10% (will be included in percents). All moves are based off the strong points of the move as well.

Dash Attack: 85-105% (avg 95%) Fair: 126-154% (avg 140%)
Ftilt: 90-110% (avg 100%) Uair: 117-147% (avg 130%)
Utilt: 126-154% (avg 140%) Fsmash: 63-77% (avg 70%)
Nair: 117-147% (avg 130%) Dsmash: 108-132% (avg 120%)
UpB: 99-121% (avg 110%) Usmash: 99-121% (avg 110%)
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
This matchup is really easy for Link once you accept the only thing Mario really has on Link is a low% combo game.

Pivot F-tilt/grab, Jab, D-tilt, and N-air are all relatively easy responses to Mario trying to approach. N-air notably will beat fireballs, while also being pretty safe against dodges. You actually have a better grab game than Mario that does similar damage but has significantly better KO setups (Link U-smash > Mario's for covering options, and Mario obviously has to respect Link's huge and strong aerials. Try to start D-throw U-tilt around 10% for best results), and there's many situations where you can easily zone Mario with grab, either retreating with pivot grab, to cover his ground approaches, landings, backward rolls, and more. Feel free to N-air and D-air him out of his Up-B when he recovers low (N-air trades and will likely gimp him. D-air doesn't trade but does a lot of damage). In contrast, Mario should never be killing you for recovering low as long as you tech stage spikes.

Would argue 6/4 Link's favor. Just recover low constantly against Mario given he can't really punish it, and ideally play on stages with platforms to make it a lot harder for Mario to land U-smash kills. Link for the most part doesn't have much reason to be losing this matchup outside of getting punished enough times for grab reads, but Link's grab game is so strong that usually you should come out ahead. Avoid playing this matchup on FD where Link's relatively weak landing options are a bigger problem, but mostly the matchup comes down to you knowing all the good situations to grab, and abusing that against Mario's short range.
 
Last edited:

KenMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
1,122
NNID
KenMeister
3DS FC
3609-1224-8364
I'm currently working on all the characters so this will be a work in progress and I will be changing info as needed. But here is what I have right now. I'm not saying it's all right so that's why I want it to be discussed :)

Link vs Mario MU
MU Ratio 50/50
General MU: Very much a cat and mouse game. We usually want to throw out projectiles, and Mario wants to cape them back. So we can use this to our advantage. Spacing out your physical attacks and zair can create your openings. Bombs should mostly be used to punish a baited cape or to stop fireballs.
Pros: We out space Mario's physical moves, bombs will out prioritize fireballs, can easily gimp off stage if Mario's second jump is stolen, dair bounces off fireballs, zair eats the fireballs, nair eats the fireballs,
Cons: Mario can cape all of Link's projectiles, close combat pressure from Mario is high, Mario's dair can go through tossed bombs, Mario has a higher ground/air speed mobility than Link,
Neutral Game: Stay in mid range if you can. At early percents we know Mario will be looking for the dthrow to utilt string, so retreating zairs are quite useful. Having a bomb in hand will force Mario to stay back a bit even if we don't throw it. Unless Mario is slow on the cape, laying the bomb on the ground isn't a bad idea when it's near exploding. If Mario starts dairing the bombs, start short hopping and throwing them down as the explosion will still damage him. Watch for the disjointed Fsmash as the range is further than one would expect!

Combo Game: The early percent grab for both characters can serve a problem for the opposition. Mario's requires less of a read, but off a good read Link's dthrow to utilt to nair/utilt/usmash/fair can deal the same if not more damage. Be ready for conversions off zair connections or FF Nairs. We can rack up a decent amount of damage off of just those two moves.

Ledge/Recovery Game: Try to steal Mario's double jump with a projectile throw. I wouldn't challenge the UpB of Mario's as there is a potenial stage spike opportunity for him. Granted if Mario is low enough you can throw a bomb on the edge of the stage to catch it with an aerial and attack Mario down low (can UpB before bomb explosion, UpB again after bomb explosion to get back) but this is a risky play. I would generally try to hit Mario under the ledge with an ftilt or dash attack if timed right, and setup with bombs thrown into the air and try to read a ledge getup/jump/roll. Nair gimps aren't a bad idea as a mixup, especially if you hit it on the startup of the move as it has kill potential.

Stage Selections: I'm going to just give the stage a personal rating and a quick two sentence as to why and we can discuss the stages a bit more per MU.

Battlefield: 7/10 Can shark and setup with C4's lots, we have the ability to swing under the stage is need be, throws can land Mario onto platforms for extra easy damage.
Final Destination: 9/10 easy spacing with zair and aerials, Mario is forced to try to approach which we can try to stop relatively easy with these tools.
Delfino's Plaza: 7/10 Our kill power on top and on side makes transition kills pretty early, same goes for Mario as well though, so be mindful and pick your spots. Mario can bthrow on walkoffs for an easy kill.
Halberd: 5/10 The stage hazards can ruin some setups, early kills on top can happen, ledges with tether recovery on the ship can cause Link to randomly fall for some reason (still need to look into this, instead of getting onto the stage again I just fell...)
Lylat: 6/10 Can hit platforms easily, tilts of the stage can mess a guys day up.
Town and City: 9/10 Lots of space to move around and keep Mario at bay, projectiles are slightly safer here as a short hop arrow reflected won't always reach Link again, so can be used as a mixup. Sides are also closer in for ftilt/fsmash/dash attack kills.
Smashville: 9/10 A nice flat stage with the platform for mixups. Good neutral stage, no really early kills on this stage though.
Duck Hunt: 7/10 For this MU this stage isn't fantastic. The ducks can get in the way of the few projectiles we will throw, the sides are pretty far out and since we are going to be spacing aerials and zair more the fight will be super slow on this stage.
Dreamland: 7/10 Like battlefield, just add the wind gusts in there. Kills will happen a bit later as the blast zones seem to be further out.
Miiverse: 7/10 Essentially the same as battlefield without the janky ledges.
Castlesiege: 6/10 Again, Mario can kill easily with bthrow on the walkoff portion, I'm just not a big fan of this stage so usually ban it if I feel someone is going to pick it.

*most of these are subjective and up for discussion, so let me know what you want added or talk about why certain stages might be better than what I say*

Kill Percentages: All kills are on Battlefield Omega, DI was by level 9 CPU, no rage and moves were fresh. Side kills were about a ledge roll away from the ledge. Rule of thumb for stage selection is moves will kill +/- 10% (will be included in percents). All moves are based off the strong points of the move as well.

Dash Attack: 85-105% (avg 95%) Fair: 126-154% (avg 140%)
Ftilt: 90-110% (avg 100%) Uair: 117-147% (avg 130%)
Utilt: 126-154% (avg 140%) Fsmash: 63-77% (avg 70%)
Nair: 117-147% (avg 130%) Dsmash: 108-132% (avg 120%)
UpB: 99-121% (avg 110%) Usmash: 99-121% (avg 110%)
I honestly don't like FD at all for Link, especially against Mario. I like the option of being able to retreat to platforms and mix up my projectile game (notably bombs) so I don't get cornered at the ledge.
 

Himura Kenshin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
248
Heavy on bombs, like, constant pressure. Bombs with go straight through his fireballs, and hit Mario, which will disrupt him long enough for you to get another attack in. Eventually, he'll start using the cape, which you can use the long grab to beat it and tack on damage. Then, just get a up tilt in, or ledgeguard, or something and take the stock. That's how I usually play Mario. Just be weary of his fireballs, cape, and down air. Play the mid range game with him, and don't let him get the upper hand, always put pressure with bombs or aerials.
 

Dumbfire

Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
2,397
Location
The Netherlands
NNID
AncientSunlight
Actual high quality Mario play vs high quality Link play:


Spoiler: Link doesn't win.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Actual high quality Mario play vs high quality Link play:


Spoiler: Link doesn't win.
That match is also REALLY old. Link is a way different character now that his grab game matters, and thanks to that buff Mario has to play WAY more respectfully in this matchup and generally has much less favorable risk/reward. Even so, Scizor at any rate didn't know how to space correctly against Fireballs, and also needed to take more risks with grab simply to control space.

Note though that Zenyou basically got absolutely no edgeguards on him. Ledge resets are free against Mario, while Link in contrast actually does really well edgeguarding Mario between being ludicrously unsafe to land on stage against, and having TWO aerials that can beat Mario's Up-B directly (N-air for gimping him on trade, D-air for straight up outprioritizing for 15%).
 
Last edited:

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
Is it ok to revisit this? Mario himself hasn't changed but Link has. So I finally got to go to a local tourney. Turns out none of them are bad at all, and some Mario main called Ninja is actually legit. I think I'm too predictable with bombs, and he's very precise with his cape. He told me that I need to play a "don't get grabbed game" and look for an opening. Getting grab is a guaranteed 50% in my case. Also being nervous doesn't help the cause. Any tips besides the ones listed?
 

ZSaberLink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
393
Is it ok to revisit this? Mario himself hasn't changed but Link has. So I finally got to go to a local tourney. Turns out none of them are bad at all, and some Mario main called Ninja is actually legit. I think I'm too predictable with bombs, and he's very precise with his cape. He told me that I need to play a "don't get grabbed game" and look for an opening. Getting grab is a guaranteed 50% in my case. Also being nervous doesn't help the cause. Any tips besides the ones listed?
Of course it's valid to revisit the matchup. Actually it's good to get some more up-to-date information. Out of curiosity, what kind of things were you doing with bombs? Holding a bomb and honestly not doing anything in particular with it (just moving around and faking out a lot), works a lot better than you'd expect for example.
 

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
Besides occasionally whipping them at him I tried for a lot of soft bomb throws to put some pressure on. Except it backfires when he gets close. Pegging him with other projectiles is hard because of his reaction speed. I'm assuming some sort sort mix ups are needed. So how long should I hold on to the bomb and where should I toss them generally?
 

ZSaberLink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
393
Besides occasionally whipping them at him I tried for a lot of soft bomb throws to put some pressure on. Except it backfires when he gets close. Pegging him with other projectiles is hard because of his reaction speed. I'm assuming some sort sort mix ups are needed. So how long should I hold on to the bomb and where should I toss them generally?
That's the thing. You should actually vary how long you wait before you throw the bomb. You should also try to throw it differently. Other times bait out the cape and try to punish him for it (Zair works ok for this). I think you can grab Mario after you've baited out the cape. Also, if you are over Mario and throw the bomb downwards, I believe a caped bomb will just go to the side and then you can try a fast fall + aerial. It really is about conditioning your opponent.
 

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
Alright I'll work on mixing up the bomb usage. Also about what range should I be with mario? I assume a mid range?
 

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
I think you can grab Mario after you've baited out the cape.
Mario's cape lasts 35 frames. His spotdodge comes out on frame 3, meaning if you start a move as soon as the cape comes out you have 37-38 frames to grab him. Link's grab comes out at frame 12 and at the longest length is frame 20. So if you are at the furthest range you can bait out the cape so long as the lag lasts shorter than 17 frames. Links normal bomb toss lasts 8 frames, so as long as they cape on reaction to Link doing something rather than reading the toss, you should be fine to grab.
 
Last edited:

ZeldaFan98

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Melee Hell
How is the neutral play in depth? Things I've picked up from this thread are that c4 bombs or bombs planted on the ground can eat a few fireballs. Mario does have the range disadvantage while Link owns the range game. Mario puts on a lot of percent up close so Link is always going to keep him out. As far as edgeguarding, what can Link do to keep Mario from recovering? Which of the zoning tools are more important to use vs Mario? Cape can stop some projectiles so would it be Zair? Should we always carry a bomb in our hands so we can interrupt the grab combos?

I could compare and contrast tools all day, but I'd really like to do more than scratch the surface of this matchup.
 

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
So I played that Mario again, and did a LOT better. Still lost 3-0, but it was always one kill move away. I mixed up my bomb usage which helped a lot, which also led to some good grabs. But Mario still eats me alive once he grabs me, and this guy is very grab happy. Also the other tips in here helped, so I'll take close games rather than being bodied.
So what are good "keeping-Mario-at-midrange" strategies?
 

ZSaberLink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
393
Mario's cape lasts 35 frames. His spotdodge comes out on frame 3, meaning if you start a move as soon as the cape comes out you have 37-38 frames to grab him. Link's grab comes out at frame 12 and at the longest length is frame 20. So if you are at the furthest range you can bait out the cape so long as the lag lasts shorter than 17 frames. Links normal bomb toss lasts 20 frames, so as long as they cape on reaction to Link doing something rather than reading the toss, you should be fine to grab.
Also a correction here (as Stryker and I discussed in the Fox MU thread earlier), Link's bomb toss is MUCH faster than this. His dash toss is only 4 frames (which is insane), and most of the time it's closer to 7-9.

So I played that Mario again, and did a LOT better. Still lost 3-0, but it was always one kill move away. I mixed up my bomb usage which helped a lot, which also led to some good grabs. But Mario still eats me alive once he grabs me, and this guy is very grab happy. Also the other tips in here helped, so I'll take close games rather than being bodied.
So what are good "keeping-Mario-at-midrange" strategies?
Awesome to hear :). I guess how is Mario grabbing you typically? Normally I find the way most good players get grabs on you is catching landings, or simply getting you standing still in shield (usually because they're hitting your shield). If there's a pattern to when the Mario grabs you, you can actually bait that out as well.

For example, if the Mario manages to get you stuck in shield before going in for the grab, you could read it and throw out a Jump-Cancelled Up-B (8 frames) or a Jump-Cancelled USmash (10 frames) right out of shield (aka skipping the 7 frames of shield drop) which are both pretty good "get out of my face" options. If the Mario gets hit by either of those (esp USmash), I think he'll think twice about the next grab. In both cases, you'd likely have to start those attacks at least a couple of frames before he starts his grab (Mario's grab goes from 6-9 frames depending on it being Standing, Dash, and/or pivot grabs). Problem with those obviously is that if you missed, you'll get punished fairly heavily since both have pretty bad end lag.
 
Last edited:

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
Ah I see. He and the other Marios that are there love catching me on landings and tend to shield grab me. I think I also need to get more aggressive whenever I do happen to get him off stage. But those I think are the two ways I get grabbed the most
 

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
Patch 1.1.6
Options Out of Shield for Mario MU:
Mario's Shield:
For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach.

Link’s OOS:
Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 10 frame start up (12 frame grab start up, 3 frame spot dodge start up for Mario, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)

D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)

D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)

F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)

Dash Attack- 28 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 1 frame to start dash, 20 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)

Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Mario after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Mario with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Mario using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

If I state something as “perfect spacing” I mean Mario hitting the edge of shield, meaning he would have whiffed entirely if Link was not shielding.
"Good spacing" means Mario would barely hit Link if Link was not shielding.
"Bad spacing" means Mario and Link are very close together.

Next are Mario’s moves:

Jab (1): DD: 9, DO: 16

Jab can punish no matter the spacing, but can’t punish if Mario inputs another jab. Bomb, grab, U-Smash, and Up-B will connect unless Mario has perfect spacing. If Mario does have perfect spacing, the first jab may push Link far enough away where a second jab will not connect.

Jab (2): DD: 10, DO: 17

Jab, D-Smash, bomb and grab will always punish as long as Mario does not input the third jab. Up-B will connect unless Mario has perfect spacing. U-Smash and U-Tilt will connect unless Mario has good spacing.

Jab (3): DD: 15, DO: 22

Bomb, Grab, and F-Smash will connect at any spacing. Jab and D-Tilt will connect unless Mario has perfect spacing. U-Tilt, U-Smash, and Up-B will connect unless Mario has good spacing.
F-Tilt: DD: 12 DO: 19
Grab can punish with Perfect spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and Up-B can punish with good spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash can punish with bad spacing.
D-Tilt: DD: 11 DO: 18
Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish with Perfect spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash can punish with good or bad spacing.
U-Tilt: DD: 12 DO: 19
Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish with Perfect spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Up-B, and U-Smash can punish with good spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Up-B, U-Tilt and U-Smash can punish with bad spacing.
Dash Attack: DD: 18/15 DO: 25/22 (2nd number is for weak hit that starts on frame 10)

Because Mario’s Dash Attack moves him forwards and has a weak hit and a strong hit, we will break it into three parts.

If Mario begins his Dash Attack very close to you he will hit with the strong hit and end up behind you. Up-Tilt, Up-Smash, and Up-B can punish.

Strong: Mario’s Dash Attack comes out on frame 6. The active frames for the strong hit last from frame 6-9. If the strong hit hits Link’s shield, then Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, F-Tilt, Grab, Bomb, D-Tilt and D-Smash will punish. If the Dash Attack hits Link’s shield close to Link but does not go through Link, F-Smash will not punish as the active frames of F-Smash will be behind Mario. If Mario hits Link’s shield toward the end of the active frames on the strong hit, F-Smash will punish.

Weak: Mario’s Dash Attack has weak frames from frame 10-25. The Dash Attack lasts until frame 37, meaning Mario can shield on frame 38. Depending on when the move hits determines how much endlag it will have. All moves (Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, F-Tilt, Grab, Bomb, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and F-Smash can punish depending on the endlag.
F-Smash: DD: 15/14 DO: 22/21 Second value is for sweetspot.

F-Smash at perfect spacing will push Link too far away to punish as grab will not reach and bomb can be shielded. With good spacing, only grab and F-Smash will punish. With bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash and F-Smash will punish.
D-Smash: DD: 23/13 DO: 30/20 Second value for second hit.

First hit: F-smash, Dash Attack, and Grab will punish no matter the spacing. Jab, D-Smash, and D-Tilt will punish no matter the spacing if Link walks forward slightly and begins the move. Bomb will punish no matter the spacing if Link drops shield and then throws or stays in shield for a short while and then throws as otherwise the bomb will go over Mario’s hurtboxes. U-Tilt will punish with good spacing if Link walks forwards slightly first. U-Smash and F-Tilt will punish with bad spacing.

Second hit: Grab will punish at any spacing. Bomb will punish if Mario has good spacing. Jab, Bomb, D-Smash, D-Tilt, and Up-B will punish with bad spacing.
Up-Smash: DD: 13 DO: 20

When Mario is facing Link: At perfect spacing only grab will punish. At good spacing Jab, U-B, Bomb, and Grab will punish. At bad spacing Jab, U-B, Bomb, Grab, D-Smash, and U-Smash will punish.

When Mario is facing away from Link: Nothing can punish at perfect spacing as grab can’t reach and Bomb can be shielded. At good spacing Grab, and Bomb will punish. With bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish.
Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Mario suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)
Nair: DD: -3/-1 DO: 4/6 (strong hit/weak hit). Landing lag:10 Auto-cancel: 34>

Can’t be punished if done correctly.
Fair: DD: 11/9 DO 18/16. Second number is for late (stronger) hit. Landing Lag: 26 Auto-cancel: 43>

Fair can push Link far enough away where he could not punish with Up-B, U-Smash or U-Tilt. Otherwise, Grab, Bomb, U-Smash, Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, Up-B, and D-Smash may punish
Bair: DD: -3/-1 DO: 4/6 Landing lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 19>

Can’t punish if done correctly.
Dair: DD: 5 DO: 12 Landing lag: 19 Auto-cancel: 33>

Grab, Bomb, Up-Smash, and Up-B may punish.
Upair: DD: -1 DO:6 Landing Lag: 12 Auto-Cancel: 18>

Can’t punish if done correctly.
Specials
Fireball: DD: 23 DO: 30

As a projectile, this depends on spacing as the further away Link is the longer before the fireball hits and so less time Link has to punish. The fireball pushes Link away a very short distance. Any move can punish depending on spacing.
Cape: DD: 10 DO: 17

Grab and Bomb can punish perfect spacing. Grab, Bomb, and Jab can punish with good spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, U-Tilt, Up-B, and Up-Smash can punish at bad spacing.
F.L.U.D.D.: This move deals no shield stun and if shielded will not push Link but will push Mario back roughly the space of Link’s F-Tilt. The englag is small enough where nothing can punish at any spacing.
Up-B: Up-B deals very little shield stun, if any. Any move can punish.
 
Last edited:

Lawz.

The Original Deadpool Fan
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,056
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
Lawz_Fearless
Don't always assume Mario has to jump to approach..because he doesn't. And don't assume DI away is the golden rule to DI dthrow, because it isn't. That will just set you up to get dunked at the edge. You need to mix up DI so he has to adapt and switch up his follow ups on the fly.
 

Huggles828

Aimin' to Misbehave
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,399
Location
Spartanburg, South Carolina
NNID
Huggles828
We've got a good Mario in the area I play a lot. We think it's 45-55 Mario's favor. It's really important for us to get the first kill on Mario because if he has a stock lead and some rage he can get combos off on us while we have to fight to get a kill move. Also cape really isn't as great as it might seem against us as long as you're mixing up your projectiles; if he doesn't cape bombs just right they just blow up right there instead of coming back at us. So mix up your soft toss and smash toss throws at him and change up your angles. That said if you're not careful he can Mario combo the **** out of you. Dairing your shield can set up for a grab > Mario combo too, just fyi. As far as that goes, just take the first 2 or 3 utilts, he's gonna get those at low percents, and DI them, don't burn your double jump trying to get out of those, the real damage comes from him carrying you with uair and bair strings. And don't be stupid off the edge, good Marios can dunk pretty reliably like Lawz said and it's not as dangerous for them to use as it might seem, it's a good move. Also, usmash is a stupid move, and super safe; don't get baited trying to punish it unless you KNOW you can (you probably can't unless Mario whiffed a hard read or really botched his spacing).
 
Top Bottom