Meta Lucario vs Sheik MU Thread

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario vs Shiek
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General tips:

• Sheik has better frame data than Lucario, she has a number of traps that work on Lucario.
• Do not challenge her Fair directly.
• Sheik can bouncing fish over Aura Sphere, remember this when you use it.
• Aim for not dying early as she does not kill early without a set-up, know the set-ups.

What to look out for:

As mentioned above you want to look out for her faster frame data when you consider confronting her. Needles go through Aura Sphere so be careful when you use it since you can lose trades that way. Be careful of when you use them as well as Sheik has a lot of ways to punish it on use and punishing it used to Breverse to mix up your landing. She will be better at the edge at well with her better edgeguard game and harder to gimp recovery.

What aim for:

While she can wrack up damage well, she isn't great at killing unless she has a set-up into it. Lucario can take advantage of this at higher percents for better trades and kill much easier than she can. If you get outside of the percents for her set-ups and combos into kills you can punish her harder for a kill.

What stages to go for or ban:

A common stages to avoid is Halberd, the low ceiling is very influential in this match-up which gives her kill potential a lot lower than normal.

The other two stages to avoid is Smashville, the platform ca give her a potential zero to death or kills at very low percents with bouncing fish. Battlefield or Dreamland due to the layout of the platforms favoring her with Usmash or vertical kills.

You want to go to stages that exploit her troubles with killing or set-ups. Final Destination is a good pick for something like this.

Key videos:

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Let's begin, discuss the Lucario vs Shiek MU here.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Sheik's superior frame data (seriously, look at this http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Sheik iirc her FAir autocancels on frame 19 now after a patch?) allows for her to get in, rack up a lot of damage, and set up a number of traps that will make you have a bad day.

General tips and what to aim for:

• Don't challenge Sheik's FAir combos/strings unless if they horribly misspace it or if you know you'll get something out of it.
• Be super careful when landing, seriously. Her USmash makes landing on some platforms dangerous. Her needles can disrupt pretty much any landing as well.
• Some Sheiks will try to Bouncing Fish over a fired Aura Sphere on reaction.
• Watch out for Bouncing Fish setups out of needles, grabs, etc. You may want to practice DIing some of her moves to get the hang of avoiding as much as you can.
• If you air dodge predictably... Sheik can KO you with Vanish.
• Keep your BReversals unpredictable. (I can't find that one vid of I believe Day vs. Zero that ended with the classic Jump Canceled Up Smash.)
• At higher aura one combo can put her in KO range, but don't get overly greedy for it.
• Her FSmash hit 2 doesn't start hitting until frame 26, so if you shielded the first hit you may be able to grab her even before the second hit comes out.

Stages:
Avoid BF, you might want to avoid Dreamland as well depending on your preference. I'd also avoid Halberd due to low ceiling as well.

Not sure what is a good stage to take her, perhaps... FD?

 

[TriforceOfAura]

I've found, with a year of hardcore Lucario under my belt, that Sheik is generally on even footing with Lucario, and even at a slight disadvantage. Here's what I can put on the table.
-General Tips-
Sheik is fast, and naturally specializes in zone-breaking. Lucario can't set up a good zoning/spacing game, as she can jump, airdodge, and teleport through most everything Lucario can throw at her. Your only way to fight Sheik is to go a brutal offensive, but know when to pull back. Grab combos are of essence here.
Bouncing Fish is feared, and rightly so. Being Sheik's main kill move, it's obvious to avoid it, but given how Double Team works, countering it won't hit her. Stupid, I know, though it DOES negate the launch and damage from the move.
Staying out of forward air and forward tilt is hard, but Lucario does it better than most other characters. He has great DI capability, and has a lengthy airdodge time.
He may not be Meta Knight in terms of his Sheik matchup, but it's an even one on most accounts.

 

[KakuCP9]

Honesty I'd be more afraid of Smashville than Battlefield since Sheik has legitimate 0-deaths using that moving platform as well as generally early kills using Bouncing fish. While Battlefield's platforms can lead to aerial abuse, it slightly limits her Bouncing fish/ needles BS and forces her to stale her aerials which can make KOing silghtly harder. Though there is the elephant in the room about her Usmash hitting through platforms (albeit a small hitbox) so maybe Dreamland could be slightly better if the tipper doesn't reach since in the grand scheme of thing Dreamland's ceiling is just FD's ceiling with a dumb top platform.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

@ChileZeRo switched to Diddy after losing a game to one who used ASC to JCU on him on BF. I think Zero has been thinking about Lucario for a bit as well. Here's to oping he has something to say about this.

Oh and Mr. Zero, if you'd like I could share with you a lot of interesting Smash Lucario tricksies that most people don't know.

 

[ANBUFBI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMbt-Y-mPM

This is the match if I'm not mistaken. Zero receives a ASC to JCU from a walljump + RAS on BF's edge from Shiny's Lucario.
Shiny has an excelent control of this MU on the first match, and Zero switch to Diddy to destroy him. I need a tread for the MU against Diddy please, that battle is so terrible for Luke.

 

[choako]

GRAB COMBOS FTW
sheik by design has the perfect move for every situation. But, if you play your cards right she'll have a hard time KO-ing which is where Lucario I think really has the upper hand in this MU. Going from a dt to Fair or Uair combo followed by a good read finishes sheik off like the lightweight she is
master race Lucario is susceptible to that sneaky bouncing fish and those damn fairs but little does she know she's just powering Lucario up-- reading her own anus for pure devastation.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Considering a skype chat in myth's to nail down the info posted here and discussed there.

 

[Browny]

@ChileZeRo switched to Diddy after losing a game to one who used ASC to JCU on him on BF. I think Zero has been thinking about Lucario for a bit as well. Here's to oping he has something to say about this.

Oh and Mr. Zero, if you'd like I could share with you a lot of interesting Smash Lucario tricksies that most people don't know.

No, to summon ZeRo you have to do it like this;

@ChileZeRo A lot of people have been wondering how good Lucario does versus Sheik.

 

[Zander2Green]

Popping in to say one thing about Sheik's Fair
We can force Sheik to misspace fair (if she is relentless in shff fairing and decides to fair it) with a crouch. From crouch we can powershield the fair. Because she is forced to space for the crouch to threaten us, she ends up misspacing for a standing Lucario. The powershield comes out and Sheik's hand is inside the PS because shields are larger than *most character's hitboxes without a shield. From here we have multiple option as she's stuck in fair animation above ground and we can act 1 frame out of PS.

Which, of course means we can force palm if they fall for this spacing. This is how I've been able to beat a Sheik attempting to 'safely' space away the entire match if she couldn't get a kill earlier. (she died at 48 after the FP)

Edit: That said, I think it's 55-45 Sheik's favor. Sheik playing like she will never be married, super non-commital, can never be hit outside of hard reads on movement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok this has been up for a while, I will finish the write-up then putting up two new match-ups.

 

[Gemba Board]

What are we doing about uair/ vanish mixups? I know there is a percent where her throws no longer guarantee a follow up. So do we do at that point? If we blow our jump right away, we avoid the mixup, but that right move? I feel like that would open up uair harrassment where we have no jump left.

 

[Zyflair]

In general, a 'fun' matchup where neither can afford a terrible commitment on anything or be a stock down. Lucario has to play a strong ground game in the midst of needles and Bouncing Fish as he has nothing to change Sheik's air power.

What are we doing about uair/ vanish mixups? I know there is a percent where her throws no longer guarantee a follow up. So do we do at that point? If we blow our jump right away, we avoid the mixup, but that right move? I feel like that would open up uair harrassment where we have no jump left.

If you double jump to avoid the 50/50, it's mostly a game to get back onto the ground as soon as possible before Sheik tries to get back in your face, but I'd say being in a juggle position is still better than a chance of getting KOd right on the spot. It's also not as if Lucario can't recover if sent offstage.

 

[Lange]

In general, a 'fun' matchup where neither can afford a terrible commitment on anything or be a stock down. Lucario has to play a strong ground game in the midst of needles and Bouncing Fish as he has nothing to change Sheik's air power.


If you double jump to avoid the 50/50, it's mostly a game to get back onto the ground as soon as possible before Sheik tries to get back in your face, but I'd say being in a juggle position is still better than a chance of getting KOd right on the spot. It's also not as if Lucario can't recover if sent offstage.

Lucario being floaty in the air is the hardest part of getting caught in the air, which makes landing tricky and risk for getting vanished or up aired coming down even if she misses the up air out of the throw. If sheik can't vanish him or get a tipper u smash Lucario can live a long time.

Lucario while this MU still probably slightly or somewhat - is about the best "counter" there is for Sheik if the Lucario is good and knows what hes doing. Other than Pika and Mario probably has the best MU. He gets comboed outframed, and tossed around but the key is if you can survive little lightweight Sheik can get killed with one hit in higher aura. If you don't survive then will be a real tough time. Its funny though Sheik mains say to people who complain about Sheik Lucario is the one they say can ruin Sheiks day

 

[chaos_Leader]

I put this in a similar way to the Rosalina+Luma mathup. This is a match up that many many characters and players have a hard time with, and it can feel annoying and tedious for Lucario. However, all things considered, Lucario is pretty well equipped to handle it.

Like others have said before, Lucario's survivability, plus aura buildup, combined with Sheik's lightness and difficulty landing the kill goes a long way to offset the annoying bouncing maneuverin combing game Sheik has.