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Lolicon

Discussion in 'The Proving Grounds' started by Sucumbio, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Sucumbio

    Sucumbio The White

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    What's up Temp Debaters. I see the activity in here is sort of stagnant, so I'd like to propose a topic for debate: Lolicon.

    I have done a little research into this, and for obvious reasons will not post links to loli sites. Let's just say there's no question as to why it's controversial. There's basically hundreds of thousands of images, movies and games floating around the internet that depict prepubescent children engaged in sexual activity. The types of "cartoon kiddie porn" that exist fill the whole gambit of the imagination, from rape fantasy, to bestiality, to ones involving machinery... There is even a separate category of actual preteen's called Junior Idols. The real children (not animated) "model" in underwear and swimsuits and whatnot, and is commonly found on many loli sites. To avoid prosecution, Japan has strict definitions identifying what is and is not okay for the children to be doing in these photos. No nudity, no touching of the genitals, no positions that look as if meant to portray a sex act, etc.

    Lolicon is an abbreviation for "Lolita Complex" and refers to Japanese Hentai that focuses on child sexuality. It is sometimes used to describe overly "cute" images, though traditionally it is referring to images of children who are actually children, not just any old age people that "look" like children. Historically speaking some ascribe lolicon's invention to Japan's rules on censorship. The idea is that in essence artists felt that because Hentai could not include images showing pubic hair, that it'd be perfectly logical to draw people that don't naturally have pubic hair - kids. (Why they didn't just show adults who were clean-shaven I don't know, but whatever). It's true that much of the lolicon that's around dates back to prior to the late 90's, and that up until that point, regular child porn was LEGAL in Japan (and even today, simple possession is not a crime, barring local prefecture law). But because children mainly don't want to be filmed having sex (obviously) this style of drawn erotica seemed to be a viable solution to fulfilling product demand.

    There are a LOT of loli mags in Japan. You can pretty much pick one up as easily as one could get a copy of the NYTimes on a news stand in New York. There have been some government restrictions, fierce policy debates, etc in Japan regarding this and other Hentai. But for now, anyway, it is legal. Legal there, and legal here (barring local indecency laws which pretty much can be used to entrap anyone).

    The Debate:

    There are several points to this. Does Lolicon promote child sexual abuse? Is it safe to enjoy? Though it's total fantasy, and no real people are involved, do those that find it erotic have a problem that they should seek help for?

    --------------------------------------------------------
    Lolicon - Wikipedia
    Hentai - Wikipedia
    Junior Idol - Wikipedia
    New legislation might censor lolis regardless of age
    Child Pornography Laws in Japan - Wikipedia
  2. Holder of the Heel

    Holder of the Heel Pranked!

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    It probably does promote it, but I'd have to say it should be allowed if people want to make it. It's like if someone wants to publish an anti-america book that would surely promote stances opposite to the state that it is published in, but it shouldn't be denied purely for that reason. We should be able to publish as we please. At any rate, if someone sees lolicon and decides miraculously that they are attracted to children, I would find it strange that person hadn't realized that before, or even later on just through seeing actual children.
  3. R h y m e

    R h y m e Smash Apprentice

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    Lolicon does nothing to promote child sexual abuse-- If anything, it represses it, giving people who would otherwise go out and molest or rape a child an outlet, keeping crime from occuring, at least to an extent. Despite not being a fan of it, I think it's completely fine to enjoy it, and just because you enjoy it does not automatically mean you are a child rapist. However, some people who like lolicon also still take action, such as Tsutomu Miyazaki, who kidnapped, raped, and murdered three four year old girls. When the police raided his home they found a vast collection of lolicon material, though this is still a very rare situation.
    Junior Idols, however, are on a somewhat different field to me, though I still uphold largely the same opinion, though because they are real children, I would have to say it is rather sickening to be heavily attracted to them.
  4. FernJay.

    FernJay. Not a Cat.

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    Oh god, the moment I saw this thread, I was tempted to check it out.
    Even if I'm not interested in any pornography whatsoever, I'm gonna have to answer your questions.

    It does not promote sexual child abuse. Most of the readers would enjoy reading the comic and
    blahblahboogaalaahoogalo and blahblahoogabooga etc. but NOT do any of it in real life.
    But, it's similar to people watching a good amount of violence on tv, so it depends.

    It is safe to enjoy, but somewhat uncomfortable for others. Most men are into it and some girls are as well (hence the shota). But older people would dislike what the people who created it has done. And Japanese politicians would be displeased. Let's say a police officer see what you're reading and does not like that. Would you defend yourself for it, or would you take the officer's words? It's sort of like that.

    And no, the don't have any problems with it until they are somehow having some thoughts in which may happen in real life. THEN they would seek help. Or maybe not.
  5. Holder of the Heel

    Holder of the Heel Pranked!

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    Don't the Japanese believe in some sort of concept (there is a word for it but I cannot recall it at the moment) that describes how their culture likes to have a lot of weird and pervy things on the television or in all sorts of mediums so that when people go out into the real world, all of that tension in them are relaxed and suppressed? Has anyone heard of this or agree with it?
  6. GofG

    GofG Smash Debater

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    hmm... rare? I doubt it. We have a group, people. There's a subgroup of those people: child molesters. Now Lolicon is legalized. We have a group, people. We have a subgroup, Lolicon patrons. We have a subsubgroup, child molesters.

    I have almost no doubt that a huge majority of child molesters probably all are aware of and enjoy lolicon along with child pornography (except maybe child molesters who are focused on a certain child). This does not mean that childmolesters[].size got any bigger.
  7. Dre.

    Dre. Smash Debater

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    I think people assume that everyone who is attracted to children are molesterers, but I doubt that's the case. There are probably a lot of people who have the attraction, and don't act on it.

    Loli could cater to them potentially, particularly the ones who feel moral guilt over watching child porn.

    :phone:
  8. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    For clarification, is this /h/ stuff or is this real life loli?

    If it's /h/ stuff, there's no harm whatsoever.

    If it's real life, then it's a little different. Obviously I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with children posing, but when it's for the purpose of sexual pleasure in adults, then it's kind of weird. I wouldn't necessarily say it's morally wrong, but it's just weird.
  9. R h y m e

    R h y m e Smash Apprentice

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    Acceptable.

    Acceptable.

    This is where you went wrong. There have been very few commercialized cases in which child sexual abuse has been explicitly linked to any form of erotic lolicon material. Thus, it is not a large enough section of the fanbase to be called a "subsubgroup".

    This is a generally sound statement, but saying that simply because they know it exists implies that it influences their actions.
  10. Sucumbio

    Sucumbio The White

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    We're talking about hentai (drawn), and to a lesser extent junior idols (real kids but not in "sexual" poses.)
  11. GofG

    GofG Smash Debater

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    Huh? I doubt it. Just as every psycho school shooter definitely played halo at some point, but the existence of halo did not increase the number of school shooters, I bet close to every child molester has masturbated to lolicon or child pornography at least a couple times, but the existence of lolicon did not increase the number of child molesters.
  12. R h y m e

    R h y m e Smash Apprentice

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    I think I may have worded that wrong-- I did not state that it increased the amount. Actually, I implied that it lowered it, in prior text.
  13. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    Yeah, in that case I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with it at all.
  14. Crimson King

    Crimson King I am become death

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    Josh Powell, the man who blew up himself and his two kids, had computer generated images of parent-child sex. I think it's pretty evident that if given the chance, he would have acted on these fantasies.

    It basically works like drugs: there are no gateway drugs, but there are addictive personalities. For one person, drinking to intoxication will be a random thing that is fun but not something they need to do. Others with addictive personalities cannot handle it and need it again and more and better. This is how people can abandon their lives for the pursuit of drugs.

    With deviant desires like pedophilia, they have a difficult to achieve goal/release. Ergo, they focus their attentions on drawn children. In their minds, it's still children, but it is just "okay" to look at.
  15. Dre.

    Dre. Smash Debater

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    CK- So do you think violent porn should be banned too? Ted Bundy said that was a huge influence on him.

    The problem with these issues is that as soon one child molesterer is found looking at this stuff, all of a sudden everyone assumes it's because of the porn. But for a hetero killer, nonone blames the porn unless it's something like violent porn.

    Of course a pedo will have this stuff on his computer, but that doesn't mean it caused their behaviour. Let's face it alcohol has done way more damage than hentai but that's still legal.

    :phone:
  16. Crimson King

    Crimson King I am become death

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    Ted Bundy was a sociopath from birth. He blamed the porn because he couldn't face up to the fact that he was defective.

    I think you misconstrued what I intended: hentai/lolicon doesn't create pedophiles or child molesters. Child molesters are usually created by past instances of abuse, and pedophiles are probably born with their attraction, warped by external factors. I think what hentai/lolicon does is minimize the acts. "Well, it's not real children, so it's okay." I think it also desensitizes people are attracted to children or are capable of harming children.

    I am not saying to make it illegal because that would, I think, create a bigger market for child porn. I just think it is not the sign of a healthy person.
  17. Bui

    Bui have no friends</br>am dead inside

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    i think hentai was made by a bunch of japaniese pervs.

    But anyway i through it was made for adults.But children that just insane.

    That's how kids turn pervs. Just watching it makes me sick.

    it needs to be censored as far as i know.

    japaniese dont give a darn. What kids watch these days.Not like us.
  18. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    lol

    All porn is made FOR adults. So is Hentai.

    You make it sound like teenage boys being perverted is unusual. And I don't care if watching it makes YOU sick. Porn is based on preference.

    Well, the Japanese 'pervs' DO have it censored.

    So, you think japanese kids watching porn is the norm? You don't think american kids watch porn?

    Further, it's also cultural. Look at the way movies are rated. In America, sex/nudity is bad and violence is negligible. Almost everywhere else, sex/nudity is negligible and violence is bad.
  19. Bui

    Bui have no friends</br>am dead inside

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    well hentai is just wrong in some point :p
  20. FernJay.

    FernJay. Not a Cat.

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    Hentai could be considered wrong at some point.

    But rest is just for the enjoyment. Mostly weeaboos though. (and furries)
  21. Orboknown

    Orboknown Smash Champion

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    That is still personal preference. While you consider it wrong, many people don't. And in some of the rougher pornography, wouldn't it be better to have an animated figure getting "hurt" then an actual person?
  22. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    What he said. People who like Hentai have a preference to it. Perhaps they don't like live porn. What's wrong with that. You saying it's wrong is just you saying you don't like it.
  23. Bui

    Bui have no friends</br>am dead inside

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    did you say furries :peanut:
  24. FernJay.

    FernJay. Not a Cat.

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    So much this. I have a friend who is into hentai and he has never liked live pornography. He once said that "It always show the same routine on every other one, and I'm sick and tired of watching different tapes that does the same damn thing." He had concluded that "Hentai has a major difference to live porn. It shows more spaz and interest when watching/reading them."

    Total logic right there for people who love Japan's creations.
  25. Sucumbio

    Sucumbio The White

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    Though to be fair, even Hentai can be tediously formulaic at times. Porn is a science, after all.
  26. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    Yusuke, you seem to just be imposing your preferences as right/wrong.

    This is coming from an enjoyer of hentai, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It is merely another preference.

    :phone:
  27. Sinister Slush

    Sinister Slush ❄ I miss my kind ❄

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    Of course peoples point of view on hentai differs from person to person.
    For me I find it fine since, in the end, it's just non-fictional characters getting it on with either sex (m/f) or some monster/tentacles.
    I would argue with hentai that's centralized around gore scat waterworks or rape I cannot find myself to be aroused by or even like. But again, it's still just animated characters receiving all those horrors and i'm not obligated to watch the whole thing.
  28. theeboredone

    theeboredone Brawl Backroom Member

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    I've read through some of these posts, and while the thoughts are there, I just feel like addressing a few points.

    1. For starters, I have not run across any concrete empirical research that suggests viewing lolicon material leads to pedophilia. HOWEVER, there have been studies done of different varieties that either lead to an easier look at a certain sexual category or increases aggressiveness in that sexual thought process. The category I am mainly referring to is the subject of rape fantasies. Some proceed to use this as an "outlet" to relieve their thoughts, but rapists themselves are no strangers to viewing such pornographic material. From this, I would conclude there are other variables involved (upbringing, nature vs nurture, etc.)

    2. Which leads me to my next point, assuming there is no research done on pedophiles and their tastes of porn material, all we have are case studies. Statements of people on whether or not such material has led to pedophilia. Personally, I have not come across many, because I don't bother venturing that deep into the internet.

    3. I would say my personal theory would be, how deep do you get into this material? Does it become a part of your life? As CK stated, does it become a drug or addiction? Or are you able to control it, and recognize reality from fiction and not act upon it?

    One question though, it seems the OP has determined that lolicon has everything and anything to do with sexual related material involving little girls in an anime variety. What about people who enjoy watching animes that focus on lolis, but have no sexual material? Rather, their interest lies in the fact the lolis are "cute" and have more "character" as opposed to their older counterparts. That seems to be the most stated reason as to why people watch.
  29. CHEAP PEACH

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    Loli leads to pedophilia about as much as gay porn leads to homosexuality, I agree. I dont think anyone was really arguing against this point though (i may be wrong). And while it may seem likely, there is really no evidence either way showing that viewing violent porn leads to rape, but I suspect the type of people who view it for enjoyment did not "learn" to like it.

    We actually already had a discussion on pedophilia a while back, and a major point of this subject was that case studies were generally done on pedophiles jailed for child molestation (as very few people are willing to step forward as pedophiles). This gives fairly biased results on the relationships between pedophiles and pretty much anything (violence, intelligence, etc.)


    Eh, I think the OP is referring purely to he pornographic aspects of loli. Yes, there are non-pornographic animated females that people find cute, but that's not really the discussion. People do find loli erotic.
  30. FernJay.

    FernJay. Not a Cat.

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    And this pretty much seals the whole deal.

    The only things that attract people to do such horrible things such as rape and etc. , is real-life pornogrhy. In which, pedophiles watch child porn, which is not right and will forever be against the law.

    [​IMG]
  31. CHEAP PEACH

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    I havent seen any proof of this either, you are just stating it. I mean, I believe people don't learn to like rape or "horrible things," they already like it and just "find out" they like it. I havent really bothered to see if thats true though. :bee:

    Well, that depends. The definition of child porn in the US currently includes (and this is of anyone under 15-18 depending on state) naturism, loli/shota, and other non-child harming stuff.

    Like I said.....there is nothing controversial about animated girls. Why did you post this?
  32. FernJay.

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    It is slightly true, over the past years, a few crimes have been committed because of pornogrhy. Take a look at crimson king's posts.



    That really sounds taboo to me. I don't even think that I would allow myself to view things such as that. If you're talking about teen pornography, then I guess, but I still have no interest in any kind of porn whatsoever. I just know about them.

    Showing an example for this:
  33. GwJ

    GwJ Smash Hero

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    They're so cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute <3
  34. Sucumbio

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    Well, not entirely. According to the Protect Act:

    -Prohibits computer-generated child pornography when "(B) such visual depiction is a computer image or computer-generated image that is, or appears virtually indistinguishable from that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (as amended by 1466A for Section 2256(8)(B) of title 18, United States Code).

    -Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors).


    The outcome in the most recent case United States vs. Miller clearly shows that the Protect Act, the only real law on the books that relates to this topic, is still too broad to apply to Lolicon. As I said in the OP it CAN be deemed indecent, and local indecency laws are frankly easy to break. But of course the penalties for those are way lower than being convicted for possessing and/or distributing child porn. Similarly photos/movies of nudist colonies are also tentative. True, it could be construed as indecent to procure and distribute images of children from these scenarios, but unless they're engaged in sexual activity, it's protected under the 1st amendment.
  35. ShroudedOne

    ShroudedOne Smash Hero

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    I think that we have seen it be the case that people are quite influenced by the media ("media" being things that they watch on television, read in magazines, hear on the radio, hear in music, etc.). Studies have been done which show that things in the media have a significant influence on us, whether we are aware of it or not. I don't think any of us believe that lolicon creates child pornography, because it doesn't. People who are into it are that way because they are the type of person who would like it. I cannot pick up a Sports Illustrated and become magically enamored with sports, because I'm not that type of person.

    There is a very distinct difference between what we feel, and how we decide to act on it. There are plenty of people who have probably, at one point, felt like they wanted to kill someone, and yet did not. The difference between those who are serial killers and those who are not is the action. So, I do think that it is safe for those who have this attraction to enjoy lolicon in private.

    The question, "Are those who are attracted to children in need of help," is obviously very based on culture. As long as they aren't acting on their urges, is there a real issue (besides the possibility of them being influenced to act by this content)?

    I found this article quite interesting, on the subject of the influence of the media, and I think it has some relevance here: http://rayuso.hubpages.com/hub/Mass-Media-Influence-on-Society

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