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Little Mac dittos: I countered a KO punch.

Aygent

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Ayygent
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Evening fellow champs! I was at a local tourney this weekend and I played a game of Little Mac dittos and me and the other guy were reading smash attacks and so on. Game goes on, he builds up a KO punch. Expecting it, I hit my counter and low and behold THE COUNTER HIT HIM. His percent skyrocketed. However, I still got caught. He took the damage of the slip counter yet I still got hit. Any explanation or comments? I was blown away as to how it happened (It knocked me out of tourney ahah) and have yet to find any sort of explanation as to what exactly happened. Many thanks!
 

TheReflexWonder

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Should've saved the replay.

From what we know about KO Punch anomalies: Did the KO Punch do the "close-up" thing on hit? Did the opponent go flying upon taking this damage?

Some of Mac's moves have a built-in windbox on the start-up meant to make the actual move hit better/more often (Dash Attack, F-Smash, Forward-B, KO Punch). I wonder if those windboxes set off the Down-B. If so, perhaps the windbox activated it and the KO Punch's power was what the Counter's values accepted, for some reason.
 

Aygent

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It did the close up. And sadly, it wasn't on my system :C as far as knock-back, you saw some spacing between the two but nothing super far.
 
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srn347

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Counters can sometimes behave weirdly with certain types of moves (mostly multi-hit ones). One time lucina countered my dair as fox and still got hit by it.
 

Legitimate Ted

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This happened to me once, actually. Lucina vs Little Mac. Counter, KO punch, we both died.

My explanation? KO punch goes through dodges and shields, why wouldn't it be able to go through counters as well? The KO punch executes and hits the counter, the game stalls trying to figure out what happened, the counter executes, and they both hit.
 

shinhed-echi

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punchtropics
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I got countered by CPU Marth, and got KO'd. It wasn't a particularly powerful knockback (nowhere near the KO punch knockback), but I had enough damage on me to get KO'd.

Edit: Marth was not KO'd, I think he didn't even move. Maybe because he countered on the edge? Although some wind-based attacks can push over the edge. So I don't know, maybe I caught him in that absolute invincible frame his counter has.
 
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inconspikuous

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i feel like we should figure this out... seems pretty important to know when the KO punch can be countered. maybe it has something to do with the frame that connects with the KO punch -- iirc the KO punch hitbox is active for frames 8-9. for example, perhaps if only the frame 9 hitbox connects with the first frame of the counter hurtbox, the KO punch can be countered.
 

TheReflexWonder

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My guess is that starting it from the air so that it spends a certain amount of startup frames in the air makes it so it's still Counter-able.
 

inconspikuous

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My guess is that starting it from the air so that it spends a certain amount of startup frames in the air makes it so it's still Counter-able.
it would be ingenious game design coincidence if they made it so that only the jump cancelled KO punch was counterable lol.
 

TheReflexWonder

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it would be ingenious game design coincidence if they made it so that only the jump cancelled KO punch was counterable lol.
Well, an aerial KO Punch is shieldable, so it seems reasonable for the game to make the "shieldable" check during the startup, rather than on the active frames. That's the kind of thing that causes stuff like Double Danger Wrap to happen.
 

poo-gas

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From what i understand of counters is that they are triggered on hit confirmation, then they block the triggering attack and respond. So the KO punch still triggers the counter but sense the ko is unblockable its attack goes through and both landed at the same time
 
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