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Let's Work On Your Coordination: The WFT Video and Critique Thread

Fancykong

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An impromptu For Glory mirror match, right down to the color. I'm player 1.

 

moofpi

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http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618

Here is a Smash 4 tournament from the other day, the second half is a custom tournament with a lot of top players.
At 06:06:47 there is a hype winner's semifinals between John Numbers (Wii Fit) and DKwill.

John Numbers uses the weighted header, jumbo hoops, the big-to-small Sun Salutation, and normal Deep Breathing.

Personally I prefer the Big Ball for stage control and shenanigans and feel it has more utility, but he pulled some pretty neat stuff with the weighted header, as you'll see at the end of the first match.
Another neat combo I saw was header from the ground to falling back air which kicks it back as its on the ground. I thought this wall would have no opportunities for interaction after the headbutt, but surprise surprise.

Anyway, the whole tournament was a blast so you should give it all a watch, as well as John Numbers matches that led up to that.
 

moofpi

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I watched that on Sunday! I think his header and Jumbo Hoop usage surprised me the most, and he was able to rack up % incredibly quickly.
He really knew how to work with Kong's windboxes (except at the end, RIP). He did a weighted header a lot of times while Will was using his Up B in super armor. So he kept doing his move, and Numbers kept dropping balls on his head. Weighted Header + Deep Breathing = GG. I really underestimated its knockback and damage. But it falls so flat -_-
 

Xyless

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http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/b/633895401?t=4h09m23s

I played Wii Fit Trainer for 2 sets on Saturday. I just started putting effort into learning WFT about a week ago, so I don't really know her combos yet, but I figured I'd ask for input.

I had to go WFT against Sago in particular, because he was one of the top Chicago players for Brawl and PM, so I didn't want to risk playing as a character he'd already understand.
 

Blue Ninjakoopa

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http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/b/633895401?t=4h09m23s

I played Wii Fit Trainer for 2 sets on Saturday. I just started putting effort into learning WFT about a week ago, so I don't really know her combos yet, but I figured I'd ask for input.

I had to go WFT against Sago in particular, because he was one of the top Chicago players for Brawl and PM, so I didn't want to risk playing as a character he'd already understand.
You did well, however I strongly advise against using d-throw. I know it feels like it can combo into b-air but every character can easily escape it. There are some mixups you can do, which you exercised at ~4:14:25 where you punished an air dodge, but it's best to use his/her other throws. Whenever you get a grab, you should nearly always either u-throw for damage or f-throw. Both reset neutral so you can charge Sun Salutation or take a Deep Breath. B-throw is also good, but I like to keep it fresh because it can KO on the edge, which is where WFT often finds him/herself after recovering. U-throw can KO as well, especially if platforms and DB are added to the mix, and is ideally used on characters who are floaty and easily juggled, like Samus and R.O.B..
 

Xyless

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Ah yeah, that's what was bugging me the most with WFT, I swore it felt like her dthrow could be followed up, but barely didn't have the frame advantage, so getting a grab led to praying the opponent would airdodge.
 

Niala

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgOtpLv59fY

Just some friendlies with somebody. Any tips?
Your WFT is quite solid. I especially like the run-off reverse fair to kill, and I fully intend on stealing it.

My criticisms are few and far between, but the big one to me is your ledge options. I think you used the roll up from ledge... almost every time. Good players will pick on that and abuse you for it. Try to mix up your options-- keep in mind WFT's Uair and Fair both hit through most of the stages' ledges, giving her a distinct advantage for dropping from the ledge and recovering/pressuring shields with an aerial.

The only other thing I really noted was a bit of unsafe pressure, extending slightly farther than your reach and getting punished for it. Nairing into the front of a shield, poking your Fair out too far and getting punished for it... nothing big, though. I'd like to see a generally closer match-up, though. It's hard to tell you what you're doing wrong at all when you're winning all your games and they're, by majority, not even close.
 

mat7772

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Thanks Niala, it was my first time playing against him so I didn't know how good he was. I might get him to record me and somebody else doing wii fit ditos as ik somebody who has an amazing wii fit trainer.
Really appreciate the feedback!
 
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Niala

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Very good WFT @ Waveguider Waveguider ! You play super confidently and are great with her~ You're quite clearly beyond the level of needing specific information on WFT, so here's a couple things I noticed that you might want to use against these specific characters:

First, against Rosalina, be more aware of Luma. A couple times she caught you with her while charging an SS. Also, her jab pressure is really strong, so if she gets you in a situation where she has you in shield and is poking through it with jab, you're not likely to be able to punish it. It's better to just roll away and reset the neutral when possible. Her recovery is also incredibly punishable offstage, and her offstage game in general is pretty weak. If she even commits to an aerial she might not even make it back to the stage. Lastly, keep in mind that even if Rosalina gets ledge invincibility, Luma doesn't. It's very worthwhile to just spike her as she grabs the ledge to just get the kill on Luma.

**** Pikachu that MU is cancer. Rtac>dtilt/utilt are really good, and as a matter of fact those moves are really good against pika in general. Try to incorporate them more into your game against him in specific.

Against Fox, I noticed that you were perhaps a bit too liberal with releasing your charged SS's at the end of a couple of stocks. It never did happen, but you have to respect the reflector a bit more, fishing for the kill that way will get you burned eventually. The other thing, and I'm sure you noticed this one, was the mix-up game out of jab>bury was... well there wasn't really one. One of the sets he started just staying in the bury while you charged your USmash beside him, and then mashing out after the hitbox was gone. If you want that to work consistently, you need to mix-up your punishes. Note that you can also kill out of bury with an FSmash as they get released from the ground, but you can also punish them in the ground with it (depending on the character of course.) You can also d-tilt for an easy 12%, or jab reset as they pop out of the ground. Chasing into the air with Nair, Fair, or Header can also be really effective tactics, I've seen some nasty spikes out of bury with header at the ledge for kills. The point is, if your opponent knows you're going to USmash every time, you're probably not going to land it very much. Lastly, I've found running off the ledge with Fair is good to cover the phantasm recovery, it takes some practice to time it though. If he lands on the ground with it, it's incredibly hard to punish so I'd recommend just going for a grab.
 

Waveguider

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Thanks for the tips Niala. :)

And yeah, about my jab > jab > bury game: idk if it showed in those matches but generally my strategy is to just go for the nairs/uairs early to mid %, but around 80% I pretty much always give the usmash a shot. I've experimented with the timing and found out that around 80-130%? it takes 4 seconds to break free without pressing any buttons, and if I'm playing with a person irl it doesn't take me long to catch onto their mashing habits. Basically if they dont mash at all i just wait one second and then dash > usmash and start charging, and pretty often they'll cop a charged-fully charged usmash. If they panic and start to press buttons (which happens 75% of the time) its simply a matter of releasing sooner. Its different for every player but once you get a feel for it and how people most commonly respond it becomes a really viable kill option! Especially if you can time it according to your opponent's mashing. obvs doesnt work online haha.

i guess its not as reliable an option since it essentially is a read but the window for error is small and its totally safe and can result in a KO if timed right so i just go for it :)

also, whats rtac?
 

Niala

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Glad to help where I can.

I understand your bury game a little better now, I can see why it works. I still there is some value to mix-ups, though, and FSmash might offer that little extra piece to keep them on their toes.

Rtac is Run Turnaround Cancel. It's a technique that allows you to essentially slide to approach or fade away with ground attacks (works with WFT's jab and utilt.) You can also slide while in her crouch animation, and dtilt when you reach your opponent, which is why it's effective against Pikachu.
 

Blue Ninjakoopa

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Thanks for the tips Niala. :)

And yeah, about my jab > jab > bury game: idk if it showed in those matches but generally my strategy is to just go for the nairs/uairs early to mid %, but around 80% I pretty much always give the usmash a shot. I've experimented with the timing and found out that around 80-130%? it takes 4 seconds to break free without pressing any buttons, and if I'm playing with a person irl it doesn't take me long to catch onto their mashing habits. Basically if they dont mash at all i just wait one second and then dash > usmash and start charging, and pretty often they'll cop a charged-fully charged usmash. If they panic and start to press buttons (which happens 75% of the time) its simply a matter of releasing sooner. Its different for every player but once you get a feel for it and how people most commonly respond it becomes a really viable kill option! Especially if you can time it according to your opponent's mashing. obvs doesnt work online haha.

i guess its not as reliable an option since it essentially is a read but the window for error is small and its totally safe and can result in a KO if timed right so i just go for it :)

also, whats rtac?
EDIT: I should be the one ninja-ing people here tbh

Nice WFT by the way. The British accent really is good. I only hear it on the Omega Wii Fit Studio stage.
 
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⑨ball

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Audio's desynced, but say, "Bonjour", to Mainless's Wii Fit Trainer vs. Roxas's Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyelBeWszg.
I want to watch this so bad, but as a sound engineer, desynchs are like poison. ):

MORE WFT! I would appreciate a little critique too please.
[clips]
A lot of really solid stuff from you in these clips. Things like using only uncharged SS's from a distance to zone so you don't risk getting a full charge powershielded. Going for reverse ftilt as a punish. Double projectiles against Robin to make her camping with her inferior micro charge useless. Lots of good SH header use to zone out(don't forget they make great landing traps too). Going offstage a decent amount.

I don't want to bombard you with text so I'm just adding very small but effective ways to level up before your next vid:

Ledge trumps are incredible. Go for them often. Not only will they force opponents to buffer ledge options giving you more opportunities to land smashes and nair, it leads into bair which is a kill move from ledge trumps around 80% for a lot of characters. Below that, it's a great setup to punish regrabs with dair, reverse fair, or attempts to jump over you.

Utilt is her most underrated move. Doesn't juggle like the ones most people think of, but is a phenomenal anti air, rounding out the power usmash offers at the price of recovery. Comes out fast with decent recovery. If an opponent wants to approach or land with an aerial and you don't trust usmash, this is what you should alternate with shield. It's really that good.

Nair. You can never use enough nair. Fast fall it to make it a combo move. Don't for shield pressure crossups with follow up bair turnaround grab mixups. A better punish than fsmash 9/10 and sets up into usmash for kills as early as 65% .

Crouch. Not quite G&W or Kirby recovering(the lowest in the game I believe) but certainly low enough to make some MU's hell. Crawl to microspace and bait options that can handle it and punish.

Neat trick(s) to show off next video: Canceling header with shield mid air lets you use custom shots for header which has an immense amount of utility rivaling Diddy's bananas. If you get the space to setup, go for it.
 

Fancykong

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Neat trick(s) to show off next video: Canceling header with shield mid air lets you use custom shots for header which has an immense amount of utility rivaling Diddy's bananas. If you get the space to setup, go for it.
I actually fought against TKBreezy not too long ago, using the custom header shots. Not only did he call it "bad tech," but he spent the next 10 minutes explaining why to his streamers repeatedly. I wonder if he knows about the Header guide in these forums.
 

⑨ball

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Lol. There's no such thing as "bad tech". There is only tech and players that can make use of it and players that can't. Even the most obscure tech can find it's uses and there's hardly anything obscure about more intimate control over the hitbox of a projectile.
 

Fancykong

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Yeah, I just advised him to come to these forums to find out more and left it alone. I forgot to save our WFT fights, but I'll upload my WFT vs. his DK when I get the chance.
 

Physical_Chess

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Here is a video from a my first tournament this past weekend. Got 7th out of 30-40 people using mostly WFT. I know I dodge a lot in it, working on that. Any other advice on my WFT play would be appreciated (Apparently I cannot post a link, so just add the below to the youtube url)

youtube
watch?v=g1CcDhGfJcE
 

mat7772

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Here is a video from a my first tournament this past weekend. Got 7th out of 30-40 people using mostly WFT. I know I dodge a lot in it, working on that. Any other advice on my WFT play would be appreciated (Apparently I cannot post a link, so just add the below to the youtube url)

youtube
watch?v=g1CcDhGfJcE
I don't really have any opinions on what you did wrong, but an interesting wft tech that I believe will help you is that you can shorthop and immediately input side b twice for no ending lag on header =)

also, I love the spikes lol
 

⑨ball

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Here is a video from a my first tournament this past weekend. Got 7th out of 30-40 people using mostly WFT. I know I dodge a lot in it, working on that. Any other advice on my WFT play would be appreciated (Apparently I cannot post a link, so just add the below to the youtube url)

youtube
watch?v=g1CcDhGfJcE
Congrats on your first tournament!
7th out of 30 is not bad at all for your first go. Here's a few things you can polish up I noticed:

Your ground movement looks a little wonky at times. I'm not sure if they were just input errors or just something you do naturally. In general, you only want to go into your turnaround animation if you're using rtac because it's reasonably punishable and an awkward pause in her otherwise fluid movement. Otherwise you'll have much more control using foxtrots so you retain instant access to retreating dash, fsmash, and the options out of it.

30-35% are your golden percents. If you land a fast fell nair here, it combos into nair twice more and then into header for an 8hit 60+ damage dealing combo. Don't force it, but if you get the opportunity like at 9:40, please hurt them. In general nair is good for punishes and combos, it has a lot of range and is useful at pretty much every percent including legit combos into smashes with the soft part of the hitbox.

A lot of jumps from the ledge. You can mix it up by momentum canceling the ledge jump with downb so you have a fast option from the ledge into shield that's much much safer than just jumping. Simple ledge getups aren't bad either as it's really hard to punish and WFT is thin so opponents have to be closer to attempt hits.

10:32
SideB counts as a third jump and is super useful in recovery even when you're not coming from above or the side. It's a small boost but can give you that time during intense matches to check for a jump if you're not sure or analyze your available options(like wall jumping). As UpB can make it back from the magnifying glass on most stages, sometimes all it takes is that small pause from the sideB to help you focus on the mashing/rhythm.

Header from any height that isn't a short hop has lag so use aerials or B to cut the lag and keep your flow.

Again, congrats on your first tourney and doing well in it~
Any terms you don't recognize can be found in the index along with tons of other techniques and data you might find useful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also congrats to @John12346 for 2nd place at Smash Attack 5.

:4wiifit:JohnNumbers vs :4sonic:6WX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8a9w48wrPc

:4wiifit:JohnNumbers vs :4kirby:MikeKirby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBSc1S9aUCg

:4wiifit:JohnNumbers vs :4sheik:Vinnie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlD13XrmIfM

:4wiifit:JohnNumbers vs :4dk:DKWill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJ4JltwECc

:4wiifit:JohnNumbers vs :4olimar:Dabuz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpIeZ6PmabA
 

Fancykong

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Man, the announcer mistaking the Sun Salutation for Deep Breathing in the match vs. 6WX got to be a bit grating.

But wow, JohnNumbers really did very well. I think if he was going against any other Sonic player than one of the best, he would have taken it. I didn't think that WFT's landing options were THAT readable.

Edit: He was AMAZING vs. DKwill. I'm learning a lot, especially since most people on this forum talk more about huge header than weighted header.
 
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Chief Quimby

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From terminalkai, Wii Fit Trainer vs. Gekkouga: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxwcvKYloC8.

vs. Little Mac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CByiHdFqsrw.

vs. Dark Pit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJynEmpGAIY.

Edit: From Come on and Ban#12, NWA's Sheik vs. Kato's Falco and Triple D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--5wFRsrdzY.
My fights against Little Mac goes a lot like the first match in that video.

I'm thinking of playing Little Mac for a couple weeks just to get to know the character better. I had no trouble against him when the game came out, but I hadn't seen one for months until a monthly I attend. I actually won the monthly in February with WFT (16 person tourney), but I got knocked into losers in the first round by a very defensive Little Mac last month (basically punished anything I threw out with fsmash/dash attack, rolled a lot). A different aggressive Little Mac ended up winning the whole thing (spammed counters and dsmash, didn't play him though).

I use Luigi as a backup, and I have almost no problem against Little Mac. I can't figure the MU with WFT, though.

I feel like I can barely get anything in, maybe an occasional ftilt and nair, dash attack and jab. Fsmash/dsmash clank a lot with Little Mac's moves (or his super armor wins), and Little Mac seems to be too short to get hit by fsmash or grab reliably.

If I get space, I can zone Little Mac with uncharged SS, and sometimes they will jump/double jump. It seems like Little Mac is at his most vulnerable landing. However, I can't punish with WFT. I try to grab, he beats me with a jab. I whiff upsmash a lot (that's squarely on me, I know, I will look into using utilt more). Any ideas for punishing a landing Little Mac?

I know the trick against Little Mac is getting him off stage, but I find it hard to actually get him there with WFT.

Crouch has been a reliable tool for me as WFT, but I find it almost useless against Little Mac. They love to throw out dsmashes, and I don't think you can crouch the jab either.

I would appreciate any help on this!
 

PUK

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Don't let him land. Fair, Nair, reverse Ftilt and Uair all day, if he AD on the ground grab, try to bait counter when he starts to use it. Little Mac is pretty simple to me, as he can't really spam his smash.
 

⑨ball

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Maybe sweeping sun salutation is the custom to take against olimar.
It's what I would use.
MU thread is here for any advice you need rather than critique on your video, but in general you want to stay low when little mac is trying to rush you down and force him to play footsies with you. Keep in mind that SS cancels into shield so it's a move that has to be respected. Bait out commitments and punish by putting him in the air. SH header landing traps and sh fair wreak havok here as Mac can't do much about them. Keep him in the air as often as possible and continuously push him towards the blastzone. Strategy is simple, but you do have to respect his ground game.
 

moofpi

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I think you did admirably against Olimar, and Dabuz's Olimar to boot. Thank god for Weighted Header.

But alas, Jumbo Hoops strikes again. I recognize its usefulness, but it's not DK's Airbender Up B and it's not Brawl Meta Knight's Tornado. I believe it kills more Wii Fit Trainers than anyone else due to how SD-able it is. I only hope in the Fall or Winter AA Custom Pack it isn't tacked onto 9/10 of her custom movesets.

EDIT: Here are some custom John Numbers :4wiifit:sets from Spring Fighter tournament, uploaded 4/12.
vs. Penta :4gaw:
https://youtu.be/BrKr8PPbT2k?list=PLqMrQjjwZ1M92-Gp7kOyr0gbLUvgzViZ3

vs Jtails :4diddy:
https://youtu.be/wXFc1SiV4A0?list=PLqMrQjjwZ1M92-Gp7kOyr0gbLUvgzViZ3

vs Max Ketchum :4falcon:
https://youtu.be/UUxGaHMRX9o?list=PLqMrQjjwZ1M92-Gp7kOyr0gbLUvgzViZ3


On an unfit note, I also urge you to watch the Grand Finals of Nairo :4zss:/:4diddy:/:4robinf:/:4pit:vs Vinnie :4sheik:/:4rob:, it is some the sickest Smash 4 play I've ever seen. They're so equal and each match averages a minute. THE SPEED.
 
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⑨ball

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But alas, Jumbo Hoops strikes again. I recognize its usefulness, but it's not DK's Airbender Up B and it's not Brawl Meta Knight's Tornado. I believe it kills more Wii Fit Trainers than anyone else due to how SD-able it is. I only hope in the Fall or Winter AA Custom Pack it isn't tacked onto 9/10 of her custom movesets.
Can't really blame the custom for player mistakes. We're all still getting used to customs so it's not exactly uncommon for things to go awry while we're getting polished up. This is why you'll see more Crescent Slash Lucina/Marths and Jumbo Hoops WTFs SDing compared to characters with worse recoveries. It'll get better, trust me.

FitGreenRanger:4wiifit: vs Komatsu:4kirby:
https://youtu.be/cWhF73FpWQ8

At least we have some Japanese Representation
Yeesh. Watching the Kirby MU is painful without weighted. Very nice finish. I'd always thought enriched was better for this mu, but it looks like sweeping looks like it can garner some usage too~

I have been working on Wii Fit Trainer and have some videos. Two of them are just really goofy gimps and the other one is a custom match against one of my friends. Any advice would be helpful!
Lol, golden all three.
I'd recommend learning how to use lagless header. It'll make weighted header so much better you won't believe. Covers her biggest weakness in range and compliments every single other thing that makes her good.

Also it wouldn't hurt to learn jab follow ups. Free damage for mashers and kill setups on the slow. Greninja in particular gets this really bad because of his fall speed.

Lastly, keep in mind that jumbo hoops can carry people off stage and make it back, so your last kill(which was done correctly as it was his last stock) is a viable option even when you have a stock deficit if you know how to carry them upwards and then return. Practice it and piss people off.

(:
 

Cress!

Keep your chin up!
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Now that we can share replays, I've started doing tech and combo videos and putting them up. On filters, character should be WFT (obviously) and I use Bowser as the computer/punching bag. Stage is omega Mario Galaxy, mode is local Smash. Region is US. I use yellow female WFT and Bowser is in his blue alt. Player name should be either Zachary or FLUFF, I don't know which one it shows.

I only have 1 uploaded so far but plan to make more.

And I found out they get deleted after 30 days and I have no way of recording it well. Nevermind then.
 
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