Landing with ZSS

[DeLux]

Kind of applicable to all characters on the basic level, but obviously applies for ZSS

Questions? Discuss!


Note: I mention this in the youtube description, I don't really talk about foostooling as an option. Most of the things for footstool are similar to the double jump discussion I mention, but it can be done even after you've burned your double jump.

 

[hiROI]

Awesome video!

Question: When Playing against Sheik and other fast characters, I would Down B from the ledge to their shield and the jump from shield leaves you vulnerable unlike it did in Brawl. Any tips on the footstool jump from the Down B? Should I just not land on their shield and land away or is there a way to not be vulnerable?

 

[DeLux]

Awesome video!

Question: When Playing against Sheik and other fast characters, I would Down B from the ledge to their shield and the jump from shield leaves you vulnerable unlike it did in Brawl. Any tips on the footstool jump from the Down B? Should I just not land on their shield and land away or is there a way to not be vulnerable?

That's a good question, I haven't really thought of the perfect answer myself other than going through an entire new sequence for landing making sure to get as far away as possible during the flip stool so I can mix up options adequately.

 

[David Viran]

Is there any actual frame data for Bair on shield. Just wondering because it seems to be better frame data wise than nair.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Awesome video!

Question: When Playing against Sheik and other fast characters, I would Down B from the ledge to their shield and the jump from shield leaves you vulnerable unlike it did in Brawl. Any tips on the footstool jump from the Down B? Should I just not land on their shield and land away or is there a way to not be vulnerable?

You could try to leave the stage and jump to the ledge after the animation is over.
Also note that, if you are going to land back on the stage, you can move again shortly before hitting the ground.

Edit:
I finally managed to watch your video @ DeLux and I just want to tell you, please never stop making these videos.
Nothing to say/ask about it right now, maybe after some more playtime.

 

[DeLux]

You could try to leave the stage and jump to the ledge after the animation is over.
Also note that, if you are going to land back on the stage, you can move again shortly before hitting the ground.

Edit:
I finally managed to watch your video @ DeLux and I just want to tell you, please never stop making these videos.
Nothing to say/ask about it right now, maybe after some more playtime.

Thanks! Positive feedback is always nice.

I've often gotten criticism from people that say "the videos are too long, you'd get more views if you made them shorter". But I don't do it for the views. I do it for the comprehensive analysis so others that want to learn may benefit from the details.

 

[YaBoyEli]

Thanks! Positive feedback is always nice.

I've often gotten criticism from people that say "the videos are too long, you'd get more views if you made them shorter". But I don't do it for the views. I do it for the comprehensive analysis so others that want to learn may benefit from the details.

I think people might complain about length because people want the get rich quick scheme to be a top player but in reality there is no such thing. Overall it was good video on basics that could be applied to any character when you think about it. Look Forward to more!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ DeLux after reading in the twitch chat that you already debated with @Dakpo about dsmash followups and seeing Dakpo's thoughts in action in the tournament, do you plan to make a video about that? I would find that very interesting, especially since I'm pretty much stuck with dsmash>fsmash.

 

[DeLux]

I think the convo ended with that we needed to skype out our options at some point and see where it takes us. There are quite a few pros/cons I think for picking various options, and I think it would be a disservice if a guide was bounded by my personal ability to understand the guy and the obvious and various shortcomings that entails.

 

[Chuva]

Great video, really informative!

I don't like to use the ledge as an option, because now you're in an edgeguard gamble which can be just as dangerous. Personally I have more trouble getting back from the ledge safely than landing. Flip Jump is what I usually do to reset situations.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Thanks, DeLux! Your videos are always a pleasure to watch. The comprehensive analysis you give is what I want when I watch these and is what a lot of other content creators don't actually do. Don't compromise on the quality and depth of your discussion for the sake of length.

My favourite landing option is also flip jump, with b-reversal and going off-stage to tether the ledge my secondary choices depending on my opponent's positioning. Flip jump to the floor > run in opposite direction > grounded b-reversal / pivot grab is something that actually works quite a bit for me; it seems that people really like to commit to attacking landings by running up to you.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

it seems that people really like to commit to attacking landings by running up to you.

They really do. If I do a side special after a flip jump landing 90% of fg players just run into it. Hilarious stuff let me tell you.

 

[DeLux]

If we're going to talk about favorites, mine by far is to maintain tumble, tech the stage for invincibility, and then use boost kick on getup.

In ideal world, I'd be happy if people that watch me play will see my ZSS and say, "That man plays as if he doesn't know the meaning of the word 'fear'".

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

If we're going to talk about favorites, mine by far is to maintain tumble, tech the stage for invincibility, and then use boost kick on getup.

In ideal world, I'd be happy if people that watch me play will see my ZSS and say, "That man plays as if he doesn't know the meaning of the word 'fear'".

Sounds like a "drunken master" fighting style.

Edit: I just realised that this could be mistaken as horrible pun.
There was no pun intended.

 

[DeLux]

Not following the pun

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Not following the pun

Your drunken tournament.

 

[DeLux]

Your drunken tournament.

Which one?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Which one?

Dunno exactly which one and can't look it up right now but didn't you talk about a tournament you applied drunk in the "The Salty Runback" twitch chat? I'm also pretty sure you mentioned it somewhere on Smashboards. Must have been a rather recent tournament.

 

[DeLux]

Try my last like...
2 dozen tournaments LOL

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Try my last like...
2 dozen tournaments LOL

So you truly are a drunken master then

 

[DeLux]

I may be drunk, but I am not a master. I have such glaring holes in my ZSS knowledge it's embarrassing.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I may be drunk, but I am not a master. I have such glaring holes in my ZSS knowledge it's embarrassing.

In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
I can only speak for myself of course. I really enjoy your content.

 

[Duzzzyy]

Thank you, really helpful in both general play and Zamus play.

I really like how into detail you went, and the length of the video was no issue.

 

[CorruptoR]

On the topic of landing and air dodging next to your opponent, with ZSS you can cancel your air dodge with Zair. Maybe this could be used to air dodge in front of your opponent and then throw out a Zair that they won't expect since its unique to ZSS.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

On the topic of landing and air dodging next to your opponent, with ZSS you can cancel your air dodge with Zair. Maybe this could be used to air dodge in front of your opponent and then throw out a Zair that they won't expect since its unique to ZSS.

This is a solid Idea. Sad that we still get the airdodge landing lag but it would be broken otherwise.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

A recovery idea I've been playing with is as follows: you get hit, you still have your double jump. Flip kick toward the edge and get as far from it as you can, while remaining in side B tether distance. Then tether. If they have completely missed the read and/or are confused, clip to the ledge for free and use the invulnerability to get back. If they come after you to take advantage of the tether vulnerability, press down to cancel the tether, jump for positioning, and boost kick them.

Not an option you'd want to use as a primary return-to-ground method, but it's an interesting mix up that can be mixed in.

Also, I'm curious about the amount of shield stun our various moves do. Do any result in enough advantage frames to short hop away? If, for example, falling nair did that you could drop in with nair and short hop out of it. That prevents the grab follow up and could set up for a short hop backwards into paralyzer... type thing.

Also also, given my personal funds only allow for For Glory practice and some sparse in-person practice, take this with a shaker of salt. Caveats aside, in my experience, landing and grabbing can help keep your opponent out of the permanent shield. Given our grab length, we can land outside their grab/smash length (land close to it though to tempt a follow up), grab them and profit. Do this once or twice, and suddenly a close landing into bair doesn't get blocked as often. What are your thoughts on something like that?

Anyways, those are some of my thoughts. Just figured I'd try and help poke the conversation forward. I should really get in on the Skype thing sometime!

 

[David Viran]

A recovery idea I've been playing with is as follows: you get hit, you still have your double jump. Flip kick toward the edge and get as far from it as you can, while remaining in side B tether distance. Then tether. If they have completely missed the read and/or are confused, clip to the ledge for free and use the invulnerability to get back. If they come after you to take advantage of the tether vulnerability, press down to cancel the tether, jump for positioning, and boost kick them.

Not an option you'd want to use as a primary return-to-ground method, but it's an interesting mix up that can be mixed in.

Also, I'm curious about the amount of shield stun our various moves do. Do any result in enough advantage frames to short hop away? If, for example, falling nair did that you could drop in with nair and short hop out of it. That prevents the grab follow up and could set up for a short hop backwards into paralyzer... type thing.

Also also, given my personal funds only allow for For Glory practice and some sparse in-person practice, take this with a shaker of salt. Caveats aside, in my experience, landing and grabbing can help keep your opponent out of the permanent shield. Given our grab length, we can land outside their grab/smash length (land close to it though to tempt a follow up), grab them and profit. Do this once or twice, and suddenly a close landing into bair doesn't get blocked as often. What are your thoughts on something like that?

Anyways, those are some of my thoughts. Just figured I'd try and help poke the conversation forward. I should really get in on the Skype thing sometime!

I don't know shield stun exactly but if you nair or Bair not advancing or retreating then the shield push back is enough to avoid shield grabs all together.

 

[DeLux]

Tuen, try landing and down smashing after doing the grab mixup

 

[Yumewomiteru]

On the topic of landing and air dodging next to your opponent, with ZSS you can cancel your air dodge with Zair. Maybe this could be used to air dodge in front of your opponent and then throw out a Zair that they won't expect since its unique to ZSS.

This could work against tall oppoents, I find that its harder to hit short opponents when theyre on the ground. I think Zair is underrated on ZSS, a trick I like to do on the ledge is to drop, air jump, and zair. It hits like 5 character lengths away, and if youre confident that it would hit you can jump back on the stage, if not you can up b back onto the ledge again.

 

[tonyz723]

That video was fantastic, I'd take a super in depth analysis that thoroughly explains every option available, than some dumb short video that half-explains a fraction of the options available any day. I hope you keep the same format going forward, these videos are obviously aimed at people who really want to learn the character, if they're long, they're long.

 

[pichuthedk]

This could work against tall oppoents, I find that its harder to hit short opponents when theyre on the ground. I think Zair is underrated on ZSS, a trick I like to do on the ledge is to drop, air jump, and zair. It hits like 5 character lengths away, and if youre confident that it would hit you can jump back on the stage, if not you can up b back onto the ledge again.

I do this all the time and for one in all honestly it is probably best to not be approaching with it from the ledge unless you do it like once every 5 ledge recoveries.

The reason i say this is because the loss of invincibility from regrabbing the ledge is extremely detrimental to beinbeing that risky since it can be shielded easily (even if your clever by making it hit them through the stage).

Drop down and double jumping while retreating zair is just as good.

If I ever drop down and jump up to approach with zair it's because I'm a crazy **** who wants them to get hit so I can either laser reset them if they don't tech it or dash grab them upon hit confirm since it seems guaranteed.

@ CorruptoR
the airdodge ->would be cool but they shield /spot dodge and your going be open to what ever they feel like due to you air dodging into the ground even though you zair during the airdodge it doesn't cancel the airdodge lag.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I do this all the time and for one in all honestly it is probably best to not be approaching with it from the ledge unless you do it like once every 5 ledge recoveries.

The reason i say this is because the loss of invincibility from regrabbing the ledge is extremely detrimental to beinbeing that risky since it can be shielded easily (even if your clever by making it hit them through the stage).

Drop down and double jumping while retreating zair is just as good.

If I ever drop down and jump up to approach with zair it's because I'm a crazy **** who wants them to get hit so I can either laser reset them if they don't tech it or dash grab them upon hit confirm since it seems guaranteed.

I would say it's fine to land on the stage with zair if theyre far away enough to be hit by the tip of the zair. Then even if they shield it they have to cover some ground to reach you. If they're not expecting it that should give you enough time to cooldown from the lag without getting punished during it.

If they're close then nair is better as it has more shield stun.

 

[pichuthedk]

Nair does have more shield stun but we still get shield grabbed and yeah your right for the tip of zair.

I was just speaking under the basis that assumed they would be closer to the edge far enough that you cant get up atrack but close enough to maybe charge a smash or something.

I love when people charge f smashes thinking that I'm a moron then I just drop down retreating zair through the stage.

I need more zair in my pressure game like shooting charged lasers below and then sh zairing to keep them at bay.

 

[extremechiton]

Landing options:
B reverse paralyzer
Plasma whip,
Down b
Nair,
Up air
Fair
Bair

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Landing options:
B reverse paralyzer
Plasma whip,
Down b
Nair,
Up air
Fair
Bair

and gAir

 

[DeLux]

>_>

HOW DAIR YOU GUYS FORGET DARE

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

>_>

HOW DAIR YOU GUYS FORGET DARE

I'm constantly thinking about it but after seeing NickRiddle getting punished yesterday even though both were up high I dropped it as safe landing option.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

There is also simply fastfall w/o attacking. It has the least amount of landing lag, and surprises people expecting you to attack. It can lead to a tomahawk which no one ever expects.

 

[extremechiton]

There is also simply fastfall w/o attacking. It has the least amount of landing lag, and surprises people expecting you to attack. It can lead to a tomahawk which no one ever expects.

Up air is also lagless when landing. So you can psuedo tomahawk.