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L Canceling Is Semi-Bad Game Design

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I've recently started making speech/commentary videos on my channel about opinions and stuff I think about competitive fighting gaming. Subscribe if you'd like to hear videos like these on a weekly basis. I also upload funny moment Melee videos, 3 of them each week


L Canceling Is Semi-Bad Game Design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDZ_QiPw_4s

Competitive Gaming And Aggression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYrJyvG3f0

The Importance Of Fighting Game Tier Lists For Character Choice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkO9KGpIGw

Gameplay > Character Balance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5-RQb5Kasc


Also, how do I change the title on this thread? I want to rename it to
From The ♥
 
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Rather than make a new thread, I thought I'd just post my fighting game speech/commentary videos in this thread to share. None of you would mind me bumping this each week, right?
 

Dylan_Tnga

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I don't really agree with your video. The point could be applied to anything technically challenging in any video game. Missing an L-Cancel opens up a punish game and even the best of the best miss one here or there, spotting a missed L cancel can be tough but rewarding against a good opponent.

I kind of wish it was easier to do a lot of things in the game, but that's what keeps people coming back, at least at the higher level is that you WANT to be able to do more, and you can always envision yourself playing at the same level of your favorite top level player... but actually getting your fingers to do it is a different thing.

I do agree with you on one major point, the game itself gives NO instruction on pressing L to cancel aerial lag and for 99% of smashers out there this needed to be explained via the internet. That sucks, why program a mechanic and then not include it in the in game tutorial or the instruction manual? It makes no sense.

Either way, the challenge of performing inputs at precise times has always created an extra layer of thrill when it comes to pulling off combos in any fighter, and L cancelling is not even close to as hard as the cancels in some other games (Soul Calibur, Street fighter hd turbo.. etc)
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I always ask the question with L-canceling, why would I ever not do this.

It fails on really making any sort of decision making for it. It's there to just make the game harder, it doesn't really make the experience better for expansive if you just cut lag in half and removed it. Nothing would change.

It's pretty much why I always site Wavedashing to be a better tech for both adding to a game and adding decision making at the same time.
 

C_Mill24

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Well, it is an exploit and it never was intended to be in the game, so making the statement that "L-Cancelling is bad game design" doesn't sound that fair of a statement.
 

JungleRot

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Well, it is an exploit and it never was intended to be in the game, so making the statement that "L-Cancelling is bad game design" doesn't sound that fair of a statement.
While I agree it's not necessarily bad game design, it is a bad mechanic, essentially there should just be less lag on landings rather then L-Canceling, because its not really a decision, you're going to L-cancel 100% of the time, not L-canceling would be a bad choice. David Sirlin talks about similar things in his playing to win articles/book which can be found on his site I believe.
 

Explodo

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Well, it is an exploit and it never was intended to be in the game, so making the statement that "L-Cancelling is bad game design" doesn't sound that fair of a statement.
L canceling was in Smash 64 and was even mentioned in the Smash 64 website. In Melee, pressing a shoulder button within 6 frames of landing halves your landing lag, and you even get a new animation (which is the normal landing animation sped up x2). Its clear that L canceling was a 100% intended feature of the game, and I honestly can't believe that you'd think that something like this could ever be unintended or a mistake.
 

JungleRot

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Well then it's bad game design 100% because there's no reason to never not L-Cancel.
 
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I guess I might as well say it here:

Ultimately, "inefficient" is the major complaint against l-canceling. Perhaps the only. As for for it? It's a little extra tech you gotta do. It's like the difference between double-tapping forward or just pressing "A" to dash forward in Mega Man X: sure, one button is more efficient, but sometimes the trickiness of the double-tap makes you feel cooler. I guess you could liken it a relative proportion of work: of course it's better to l-cancel, but sometimes you can feel like the l-cancel deserves a little bit of work fpr that "reward" as well - as psychological as this may sound.
 

Yodude57

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I guess I might as well say it here:

Ultimately, "inefficient" is the major complaint against l-canceling. Perhaps the only. As for for it? It's a little extra tech you gotta do. It's like the difference between double-tapping forward or just pressing "A" to dash forward in Mega Man X: sure, one button is more efficient, but sometimes the trickiness of the double-tap makes you feel cooler. I guess you could liken it a relative proportion of work: of course it's better to l-cancel, but sometimes you can feel like the l-cancel deserves a little bit of work fpr that "reward" as well - as psychological as this may sound.
Completely understand your point but it is still annoying that u have to do it because well... Why won't you?
 
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Well, the bottom-line argument here is "Why would you not?" As I implied in my post, the only real "counter" is "It takes skill." So, I'd have to defend that then - Is it really that much skill? Or is it just annoying?

As interesting as the discussion has been, I find the debate a bit tired: L-canceling exists in both 64 and Melee, I largely don't think about it too much, and if I were to re-design the game, I'd probably take it out. I don't think that necessarily means it's bad game design, but inefficient.

I am reminded of Super Metroid's bomb-jumping, where if your timing is off your jumping will fail, and although it's not terribly hard to get there does come a point where you feel released from a pre-existing limitation. It's been mentioned before (and by myself too I think), but the practical solution for L-canceling is to take it out of the game and see how it feels. We can get only so far in theory, for this one.
 

Anthon1996

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Kati

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Don't forget that players can be punished for attempting to l cancelling though. If the opponents shields in a way that the attacker isn't expecting, the l-cancel could be mis-timed (see ice climbers dual shield strats). If the attacker is hit after they fully press the l-button, they will lose the chance to tech briefly.

And then there's the pressure aspect.

I'm really amazed that players on this site still think l-cancelling is an exploit and unintentional.

Also there were two popular smash titles with an absence of l cancelling: brawl and brawl+. Brawl killed aggressive characters like Falcon, while Brawl+ made playing Falcon feel too safe as the cast had "auto-aerial-reduction-lag."
 
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asianaussie

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the existence of a landing animation at all is detrimental to fast and fluent gameplay, and is the real issue at hand

Z or L-cancels are merely an unnecessary obstacle to joining the competitive ranks, and should not be considered skilful since it is borne purely of practice rather than conscious thought

also, as an aside, landing lag in 64 isn't totally removed, it's merely made equivalent to the lag you'd have if you had landed without an aerial (which is 4 frames, 8 frames with fastfall)
 

SpiderMad

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@ EPsilon933 EPsilon933 You said you L-cancel with light press right? How do you feel about the mechanics required for Mashing? Also I think you mentioned L-cancel as 6 frames, I thought it was 9

Also what's up with this Cnation thing you talked about in one of your videos? http://cnation.co/creators.html#
I have a youtube channel PMDepot with 60k+ views and 450+ subs but lots of copyright music, how does it work exactly? Am I eligible?

Also are you ever up to playing Third Strike over Supercade sometime?
 
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@ EPsilon933 EPsilon933 You said you L-cancel with light press right? How do you feel about the mechanics required for Mashing? Also I think you mentioned L-cancel as 6 frames, I thought it was 9

Also what's up with this Cnation thing you talked about in one of your videos? http://cnation.co/creators.html#
I have a youtube channel PMDepot with 60k+ views and 450+ subs but lots of copyright music, how does it work exactly? Am I eligible?

Also are you ever up to playing Third Strike over Supercade sometime?
I l cancel using z. I think some things that require mashing shouldn't have required that, like Luigi;s/Mario's/DrMario's down Bs. Similar philosophy. But I think for getting stunned, it might make sense and be more fun to mash out of stun. I heard it was 6 frames before landing http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/L-canceling

Someone from my youtube network made a chain game (for the less successful youtubers) and I went along and continued it for fun. I thought I'd share an opportunity for some of my subscribers to become a partner if they'd like to

You got 450 subs from recording the game through a camera rather than a capture card? That's kind of impressive. I think you should get a capture card to get better quality videos. Equipment can be as cheap as $40. This is what I do if you'd like to get as good video quality easily http://smashboards.com/threads/how-...m-recorded-videos-in-pseudo-hd-easily.333301/

I can't recall everything about copyrights, but reading the contract might help http://cnation.co/contracts/normal.html

Basically, being in a network gives your channel some extra protection against copyright strikes. If the network owners are aware you broke a copyright, they'll request you to delete the video and you'll have to comply. Before you join, they'll look at all of your current videos to see if there's anything too bad, copyright-wise, and tell you of it. I think you'll be fine

And 1 more thing; CreativeNation i'snt a very good network to join yet. They haven't set themselves up well enough yet and aren't good at marketing the channels of their partners. Find a better network that can do that for you. More subscribers are worth more than more revenue share. Maybe http://viso.tv/ (Only saying this because a favor youtuber of mine is from this network)

I've tried setting up supercade once before and didn't get it to work. Do you have PSN?
 

SpiderMad

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Thanks what I use now to record is a K-world 2.0 with Virtualdub, it's a lot of hassle though since I have to export it through Virtualdub in the settings I like then change it again with FormatFactory to get it to show in Adobe Premiere, among other things with the audio: so for short things I just use my phone. I think OBS would be easier but I can't get the same quality.

If I apply to that viso thing, do I need to disable my monetization? I clicked yes to monetization, but I've never set up an Adsense account yet in fear of copyrighted music making them take my videos down. So being in a network also gives you ad revenue right or how does that work?

What went wrong with Supercade? I only got into Third strike by my friend introducing me to Supercade/GGPO and I bought a pad, I don't own an Xbox/PS3. My skype is james.madway

A lot of people feel the same way for specials of Height mashes, but others also feel the mashing needed for breaking grabs and sorts could be something less damaging to the controller (for Project M).

Are you a fan of Project M?
 
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Thanks what I use now to record is a K-world 2.0 with Virtualdub, it's a lot of hassle though since I have to export it through Virtualdub in the settings I like then change it again with FormatFactory to get it to show in Adobe Premiere, among other things with the audio: so for short things I just use my phone. I think OBS would be easier but I can't get the same quality.

If I apply to that viso thing, do I need to disable my monetization? I clicked yes to monetization, but I've never set up an Adsense account yet in fear of copyrighted music making them take my videos down. So being in a network also gives you ad revenue right or how does that work?

What went wrong with Supercade? I only got into Third strike by my friend introducing me to Supercade/GGPO and I bought a pad, I don't own an Xbox/PS3. My skype is james.madway

A lot of people feel the same way for specials of Height mashes, but others also feel the mashing needed for breaking grabs and sorts could be something less damaging to the controller (for Project M).

Are you a fan of Project M?
I still have the option to enable monitization, but I think it should be disabled. Shouldn't I be getting money through the network anyways? I'll do some research sometime to know for sure. You won't need an adsense account to make money through a partnership. The network will pay you through paypal or direct deposit to your bank account. I think if you already had copyrighted stuff on your videos, youtube would have given you warnings about it, regardless of not being monitized. If youtube detects anything copyrighted, the least they'll do is disable putting ads on the video unless you do a lot of work using only parts of the content such as a review

I tried Supercade at least a year ago. I can't remember what exactly failed

I think that specials for height mashes should probably be changed to how long a player holds a button to reach a certain height. It kind of necessarily drains the player of energy and not everyone can have the finger dexterity to hit a button like 14 times/second. It's not a trainable ability. Idk if mashing does much to actually damage a controller

I'm not a fan of PM, but I think it's pretty fun. There are a few flaws to it like unfluid animations and physics
 

SpiderMad

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What things would you change specifically about Project M?

I haven't gotten any "Strikes" against my account, but on the video itself it won't let you monetize the ones with copyright music; but I would complete my adsense just to get revenue on half of my videos where I don't have music if I knew for sure they wouldn't mess with my non-monetized ones.

I'll help you set up that Supercade, give it a go again. You love chun dittos right? You needed to have SF3 rom as well as the SF3 3s rom, and both still kept in the .zip file I think, then in the Supercade third strike is listed as like "Tres" or something a little obscure
 
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What things would you change specifically about Project M?

I haven't gotten any "Strikes" against my account, but on the video itself it won't let you monetize the ones with copyright music; but I would complete my adsense just to get revenue on half of my videos where I don't have music if I knew for sure they wouldn't mess with my non-monetized ones.

I'll help you set up that Supercade, give it a go again. You love chun dittos right? You needed to have SF3 rom as well as the SF3 3s rom, and both still kept in the .zip file I think, then in the Supercade third strike is listed as like "Tres" or something a little obscure
The physics problem probably can't be fixed because it's built upon Brawl's engine. The animations could be smoother. Look at Peach. She moves so floppily. You'd also know my opinion about l canceling. Some of the members of the PM development team want it removed too. Too bad they're not the majority of the team so it's staying in

I just now remembered that about a month ago I tried it with a friend. I couldn't get it to work because I don't have an internet connection at home. I have to go on campus to go online and the school's network blocked the port that Supercade uses. There's no hope unless I want buy an internet connection at my college apartment

Chun-Lis are kind of rare online. They're interesting to play. I haven't played enough to where there only way to win is by spacing cr.mk all day and hoping for a hit confirm into super
 

SpiderMad

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You don't need a working port for Supercade to work if the other person is able to open their's (which I can), GGPO on the otherhand requires both players have working ports.
 

Nihonjin

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I always ask the question with L-canceling, why would I ever not do this.
Why would you ever not tip your opponent with Marth's F-smash? Should we remove his sourspot all together?

t fails on really making any sort of decision making for it. It's there to just make the game harder, it doesn't really make the experience better for expansive if you just cut lag in half and removed it. Nothing would change.
It opens up defensive options for your opponent. Almost anyone can shffl consistently on FD without an opponent. Most people can shffl consistently wihen they know they'll hit their opponent.. But when you try to hit someone and they spotdodge/roll, angle their shield, duck to delay your contact by a few frames, powershield or do anything else you didn't expect that changes the timing ever so slightly, that's when you miss L-cancels or it becomes at least a bit more difficult to pull of consistently.

It's comparable to swinging at someone and missing because they duck under it. You'll be off balance and open to counters.

Since your opponent can influence your ability to L-cancel, it's not a meaningless addition but actually adds depth to the game. While defending you're not completely at the mercy of your opponent but you can actively try to interrupt their pressure without doing anything to them directly (kinda like we do with DI).


Btw, I haven't looked at any of the links in the OP, so if these points were already addressed there, let me know
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Why would you ever not tip your opponent with Marth's F-smash? Should we remove his sourspot all together?
He is partly balanced around the fact you want to tipper with him as well and give him his idenity as a fencer like character.
There is a spacing and decision making on both sides for his tipper exist.

L-canceling doesn't do this, it universal and done by everyone, even Peach needs to use this over float cancels sometimes. It's a mechanic that can easily be replaced by just cutting lag in half on everyone.

In a nutshell, it is similar you always want to tipper with Marth, but again this playing into a lot more pros with actual gameplay on both sides and gives him an identity. L-canceling is just artificial and doesn't really add any strategic depth. It's there just to make the game harder while bringing nothing else in return.
 

-ACE-

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How does it not add strategic depth when your opponent can hinder your ability to do it? Can you say that with confidence knowing that all avenues have not been explored (light-shielding hasn't even been fully explored, for example)?
 

asianaussie

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why is hindering somebody's ability to L-cancel a desirable way to get punish opportunities?

it's ****ing not, the strategic depth afforded by this is minimal and pales in comparison to the meaningless techskill barrier the mechanic erects for new players

re: marth's tipper, this is something where you can miss the optimal outcome due to simple, honest opponent interference, and it rewards you for actually reading and interacting properly with your opponent

the very fact you have to bring up silly frame delay gimmicks speaks volumes of how weak the argument for l-cancelling really is
 

-ACE-

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"why is hindering somebody's ability to L-cancel a desirable way to get punish opportunities?"

Why is it desirable? First you must understand why any punish opportunity is desirable, I suppose.

I see you admit L-canceling does add some amount of depth. Was the techskill barrier just too much for you?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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How does it not add strategic depth when your opponent can hinder your ability to do it? Can you say that with confidence knowing that all avenues have not been explored (light-shielding hasn't even been fully explored, for example)?
A lot of players better than me have told me someone shouldn't be affected by tilting their shield or a second climber there.

If you know it's there, and you can see it, it's not gonna affect you.

There isn't any real decision making with it and the gameplay interacts are limited and shouldn't really affect someone who knows what hitlag is.

It's just a bad mechanic plain and simple.
 
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-ACE-

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A lot of players better than me have told me someone shouldn't be affected by tilting their shield or a second climber there.

If you know it's there, and you can see it, it's not gonna affect you.

There isn't any real decision making with it and the gameplay interacts are limited and shouldn't really affect someone who knows what hitlag is.

It's just a bad mechanic plain and simple.
Lol. So if someone "shouldn't be affected" by these things, why do people miss L-cancels constantly because of those very things? That is basically a real life vs theory bros. argument (someone else's theory at that). Given tilting one's shield is relatively underused still, and not everyone uses IC's, but it happens often and there's no denying that.

You have to know it's there, see it, be able to react mentally, and react physically. So I guess everyone just reacts flawlessly upon seeing a sub-par situation? lol.

How is there NO decision making when you literally have to know when you will hit your opponent, whiff, or hit the shield in order to get the cancel? some of these 3 scenarios tend to blend in a bit with eachother on character that fall really quickly, but not for all characters, your timing has to be specific, and whether you will hit your opponent, their shield, or not at all, can change much faster than someone can react to it (you have to read it in that case... strategy... depth).

And this "shouldn't" affect someone who knows what hitlag is? lmao. Pretty sure magus has missed some crucial L-cancels before.

It's not a bad mechanic, plain and simple..... You have just hopped on this bandwagon that says it is.

So far I have not even taken a stance saying that it IS a great mechanic (even though I'm sure some of you have assumed I think this), I have only pointed out holes in your argument. I don't have a strong stance atm, but it would change this game drastically, and melee would not be what it is today. It could be better, it could be worse. who knows. But so far I have not seen anything that proves that it is a "bad" mechanic.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Lol. So if someone "shouldn't be affected" by these things, why do people miss L-cancels constantly because of those very things? That is basically a real life vs theory bros. argument (someone else's theory at that). Given tilting one's shield is relatively underused still, and not everyone uses IC's, but it happens often and there's no denying that.

You have to know it's there, see it, be able to react mentally, and react physically. So I guess everyone just reacts flawlessly upon seeing a sub-par situation? lol.

How is there NO decision making when you literally have to know when you will hit your opponent, whiff, or hit the shield in order to get the cancel? some of these 3 scenarios tend to blend in a bit with eachother on character that fall really quickly, but not for all characters, your timing has to be specific, and whether you will hit your opponent, their shield, or not at all, can change much faster than someone can react to it (you have to read it in that case... strategy... depth).

And this "shouldn't" affect someone who knows what hitlag is? lmao. Pretty sure magus has missed some crucial L-cancels before.

It's not a bad mechanic, plain and simple..... You have just hopped on this bandwagon that says it is.

So far I have not even taken a stance saying that it IS a great mechanic (even though I'm sure some of you have assumed I think this), I have only pointed out holes in your argument. I don't have a strong stance atm, but it would change this game drastically, and melee would not be what it is today. It could be better, it could be worse. who knows. But so far I have not seen anything that proves that it is a "bad" mechanic.
Because people are human and will make mistakes in those situations. That's not the issue, the issue is there is no real "gameplay" with it outside of a technical error.

And yes I know people can react to it, Mango abuses this against lower level player who don't know how to accommodate for it.

There is no decision for it in the sense, "Why would I ever not L-cancel?" That is where my problem with the tech is, it's not like other techs which add choice and gameplay like wavedashing. You can choose to go back or forth, the distance you go etc. There is actual choice to this and it makes sense for something like this to be here.

L-canceling just exists to make the game artificially harder. Not to actually and strategic or chances to outplay.

I will say though, what you are saying about people missing it is true and does contribute to it. My problem is there is no balance to it strategic vs execution. I don't want execution to be dumbed down either, but I don't want it to overtake strategic depth either. I feel like L-cancelling adds this layer that really shouldn't be there, it's there just to make the game harder but no real pay off or adding much if any real depth to the game.

tl;dr, I want execution to also matter, but it needs a reason to be there than just, "make it harder"
 

asianaussie

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"why is hindering somebody's ability to L-cancel a desirable way to get punish opportunities?"

Why is it desirable? First you must understand why any punish opportunity is desirable, I suppose.

I see you admit L-canceling does add some amount of depth. Was the techskill barrier just too much for you?
I see, I see... you tunnelvisioned and ignored the entire part of my post about the huge practical downside to L-cancelling, then proceed to launch an entirely misplaced and honestly quite stupid personal attack.

Just so you can't dodge, let me ask you some direct questions. Why is a form of entirely perfunctionary and artificial depth desirable, especially when it brings along an irritating techskill barrier as unnecessary baggage? Why should we not make L-cancelling entirely automatic? Why does no other game with aerial attacks and landing interactions contain landing animations at all? Are those game bad for lacking this depth? **** no, L-cancelling is bad game design that does not really reward anything we want to reward at a high level of competition, whilst simultaneously punishing those who don't want to muscle-memory an entirely meaningless (yet mandatory) reflex.

Does winning through a gimmicky forced L-cancel whiff really make you feel good about yourself? Do you understand that you're just abusing an arbitrary techskill element? It's no different to beating down on somebody who doesn't know how to L-cancel period. The game would be entirely better off if we made L-cancelling automatic, because there is never a reason to not L-cancel.

For the record, I play 64 and not melee, and I even have the melee L-cancel reflex from my very limited experience with the game - I'm still against it, because it is an arbitrary execution barrier that shouldn't exist.
 
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cisyphus

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A few problems I see with a lot of stuff in this thread:
First, in the video, "there are no costs to l-canceling" isn't entirely true either: most of the players I know l-cancel with the L button, and doing so opens up the opportunity for unintended air dodges, which then lead to punishes or outright SDs. Surely you've seen those kinds of situations unfold where someone is hit just as they're landing from an aerial and they l-cancel and SD because of it. This, of course, is mitigated by using Z to L cancel, but not everybody does it and that comes with its own problems (grabbing if you mess up timing is a lot worse than shielding).
Second, "it [l-cancelling] cannot be discovered by accident" but surely it can! Playing with Link and using the D-air, landing and instinctively wanting to shield at that moment would produce the l-cancel effect on accident. That fact reduces this notion that it's specialized to competitive play: competitive and casual aren't distinct, different worlds; they are two ends of a spectrum that never end or begin.
Third, this idea that "people don't play to win" is silly: if you try at any point to land a hit on your opponent, or avoid a hit on yourself, you're playing to win. Simple as that. I've never watched a single Smash game in my decade of playing the games in which someone didn't play to win, casual or otherwise.
Fourth, how in the hell is Melee campy? Of the hundreds upon hundreds of games and matches I've watched and played over the years, I've never seen a game go for longer than five, maybe six minutes, which is still drastically below the 8 minute expectation. Tell me where that understanding of the game comes from, please.
Fifth, "Melee is 'too hard' [for Brawl players]" because of SO much more than l-cancelling. It's interesting that this comment came directly after talk of campiness sprouting from unsafe approach options, because that's exactly what Brawl is. Brawl in general is slower, and it's not just because there isn't any l-canceling, but also because the dash speeds, air speeds, wave-dashes, and other micro-elements affect the macro-elements of the game: where Brawl is heavily based on macro-elements like spacing and stage control, Melee superposes those concepts with dashdances, frame advantage, et. al. where two or three frames is the difference between getting a shine and getting grabbed. This idea of small efforts at first is your casual community. EVERY competitive smasher started out playing the game casually until it's gotten to this massive competitive identity (it started as a party game, lest you forget), and there are plenty of examples of players that stepped up to this "great challenge" in the last few years and are excelling now despite how "discouraging" it's claimed to be.
Sixth, this discussion of shield DI (and light shielding) directly counters the earlier claim that l-cancelling "adds no further dimensions to the game" because it punishes the mindless muscle-memory aspect of the mechanic: you still have to pay attention to what you're doing in order to be successful. The same logic can be applied to wavelanding: if you mindlessly wavelanding every time you land, you're gonna get punished for it. Does that make wavelanding bad? No.
Finally, this discussion of "average l-cancel difference" that's used to invalidate all of this conversation ignores the fact that some l-cancelling exceeds that number, meaning this "average human reaction time of 12.9 frames" is still viable in certain circumstances, which then validates the reactionary basis of the pro-l-cancel argument.

Then there's this question of "When would I not l-cancel?" How about:
- When auto-cancel is better. Doctor Mario's Back Air is an example of this: the l-cancelled landing lag of the move is 9 frames and auto-cancelled landing lag is 4; therefore, if I'm in a position in which the AC Bair and the SHFFL bair will both hit my opponent*, the AC Bair is the better option. In other words, there are times when I would not l-cancel.
*The bair hitbox exists on frames 6-16 of the animation; the auto-cancel window is after 19. So let's assume you only hit with frame 16: if you're shuffling, you land on frame 17 with 9 frames of lag, meaning you're active again after frame 26; if you auto-cancel on frame 19, you're active again after frame 23. That's three frames difference, folks.

Many neutral airs fall into this as well, but that begs the question of "when would you want to hit with the last frame of a sex kick?" or as it came up in this thread: "Why wouldn't you tipper Marth's f-smash?" Now, to be fair, you really have no applicable reason to not tipper, but what about Marth's other tipped moves? Isn't the Ken Combo soft fairs linking into a tipped dair? Isn't the combo ruined if you tip with a fair? I think that's a fair enough point that legitimizes occasions in which auto-canceling, even with long sex kicks like Fox's, Falco's, or Sheik's, would be superior to l-cancelling. This game is too complex to narrow down so simplistically. Again, we have yet to explore everything that this game has to offer, so maybe there are instances yet to be found where l-canceling isn't as good as not doing it: it cannot be reduced so simply.

The fact of the matter is that l-canceling IS part of this game and it's pointless to complain about it; if anything, it's a stepping stone into competitive play in that it makes players aware of the consequences of their actions and puts greater value into something as seemingly-inconsequential as a button press six frames before landing. Those six frames are still more than the double-shine window, the shorthop window, the wavedash window, the smash DI window, the rest hitbox (and most other hitboxes let's be real), and probably more stuff I'm forgetting about.
 

asianaussie

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this is an entirely theoretical discussion tbh, the biggest potential repercussion is removal of L-cancelling from project M (that is, all moves are treated as if you L-cancelled, while autocancel windows remain)

consider any high-level game where neither player made a major technical error - if you made L-cancels automatic, would this have changed the game in any meaningful way?

just because there is minor artificial depth to a mechanic at a high level does not excuse the fact it's bad game design to artificially insert techskill that, in probably 99+% of practical cases, would and should be done without thinking

First, in the video, "there are no costs to l-canceling" isn't entirely true either: most of the players I know l-cancel with the L button, and doing so opens up the opportunity for unintended air dodges, which then lead to punishes or outright SDs. Surely you've seen those kinds of situations unfold where someone is hit just as they're landing from an aerial and they l-cancel and SD because of it. This, of course, is mitigated by using Z to L cancel, but not everybody does it and that comes with its own problems (grabbing if you mess up timing is a lot worse than shielding).
This is not desirable. Why should there be a possibility of an accidental airdodge or grab due to forced onus of muscle-memory? There are other ways to screw up techskill, but none of those involve an arbitrary basically-no-downside techskill add-on.

Fifth, "Melee is 'too hard' [for Brawl players]" because of SO much more than l-cancelling. It's interesting that this comment came directly after talk of campiness sprouting from unsafe approach options, because that's exactly what Brawl is. Brawl in general is slower, and it's not just because there isn't any l-canceling, but also because the dash speeds, air speeds, wave-dashes, and other micro-elements affect the macro-elements of the game: where Brawl is heavily based on macro-elements like spacing and stage control, Melee superposes those concepts with dashdances, frame advantage, et. al. where two or three frames is the difference between getting a shine and getting grabbed. This idea of small efforts at first is your casual community. EVERY competitive smasher started out playing the game casually until it's gotten to this massive competitive identity (it started as a party game, lest you forget), and there are plenty of examples of players that stepped up to this "great challenge" in the last few years and are excelling now despite how "discouraging" it's claimed to be.
While your point is nice and all, none of this challenges the fact that L-cancelling is just another completely unnecessary barrier. The argument is not 'L-cancelling is the sole obstacle between casual and competitive', it is 'L-cancelling is a arbitrary mechanic that does almost nothing for the game's depth, why should we have yet another obstacle when competitive melee is already so daunting?'

Sixth, this discussion of shield DI (and light shielding) directly counters the earlier claim that l-cancelling "adds no further dimensions to the game" because it punishes the mindless muscle-memory aspect of the mechanic: you still have to pay attention to what you're doing in order to be successful. The same logic can be applied to wavelanding: if you mindlessly wavelanding every time you land, you're gonna get punished for it. Does that make wavelanding bad? No.
Artificial depth is bad. Why should a punish due to obscure shield angling tactics be valued at all, when the game is already so fast and frenetic, what with creating good angles of approach and reading movement patterns and why do we need to focus on L-cancelling ever ugh I'm rambling?

Also, wavelanding is not something you do almost 100% of the time, nor should it be. L-cancelling is something you do almost 100% of the time. Both are techskill, but one is mandatory and adds little depth, while wavelanding is a movement option that adds speed, depth and another option to consider.

I have no major issue with the rest of your argument, but most of the cases presented in relation to why L-cancelling has depth are edge cases. Are there really that many examples like that in melee? 64 has exactly 2 (3 if you count two characters' identical application) cases where not Z-cancelling is even plausible as an option over cancelling.
 
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PizzaWenisaur

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I actually don't mind L-cancelling.

It's funny because I'm watching SDCC Smash Tournament and the players were using a lot of powerful - long lag aerials that were clearly punishable, but even when the moves whiffed it seemed like many people had trouble properly punishing them.

I say this to say that I feel like the balance of Smash Bros when played at a lower level might be messed up with auto-cancels.
Right now, a lot of moves are suprising well balanced in lower skill play. If all moves just auto-canceled - I think aerials would become too powerful in casual play. Because people would just spam these moves once they realize that thier opponents are too slow to react to them.

Pretty much any other fighting game you could say who cares about the "casuals" - but considering the duel nature of Smash, I would argue that it's pretty important.

I feel like L-cancelling puts a nice division between high and low levels of play. Of course, perhaps there are other solutions to L-cancelling, but I don't think it was as terrible as you guys make it out to be. Perhaps a turbo mode that auto-cancels aeriels.
 
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SpiderMad

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@ cisyphus cisyphus Air dodging/SD'ing is if you're hard pressing your L or R to L-cancel when you can light press it, unless you removed your springs. Teching is hard press though.

PM just needs the Auto-option for people new to the game or have little care to become technical at it and play it casually.
 
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Nihonjin

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There is no decision for it in the sense, "Why would I ever not L-cancel?" That is where my problem with the tech is, it's not like other techs which add choice and gameplay like wavedashing.
There is no decision for it in the sense, "Why would I ever not powershield?" That is where my problem with the tech is, it's not like other techs which add choice and gameplay like wavedashing.

Automatic powershields for everyone, right?! Riiiiight...

L-canceling just exists to make the game artificially harder. Not to actually and strategic or chances to outplay.
I already addressed how it helps defending parties and gives them more options. Pretending like it doesn't isn't going to help your argument.
 
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asianaussie

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There is no decision for it in the sense, "Why would I ever not powershield?" That is where my problem with the tech is, it's not like other techs which add choice and gameplay like wavedashing.

Automatic powershields for everyone, right?! Riiiiight...
Sure is a pity that not being able to perfectly powershield shuts people out from competitive play of any level...

Oh wait, that's not the case at all.

I already addressed how it helps defending parties and gives them more options. Pretending like it doesn't isn't going to help your argument.
why not make it completely automatic , letting everyone work on winning the spacing game without some niche depth that isn't relevant to anyone outside the higher echelons? You even admitted it's not reliable disruption, and merely ups the artificial difficulty.
 

Acryte

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Sure is a pity that not being able to perfectly powershield shuts people out from competitive play of any level...

Oh wait, that's not the case at all.



why not make it completely automatic , letting everyone work on winning the spacing game without some niche depth that isn't relevant to anyone outside the higher echelons? You even admitted it's not reliable disruption, and merely ups the artificial difficulty.
Most sports aren't just chess, your argument is that just because there is no decision of 'when to do it' (mental) but has drawbacks from not doing it (physical)... it is poorly designed. Smash is even better for having challenging requirements both mentally AND physically. You probably don't feel that way, in that only the mental aspect matters.

Why do basketball players have to dribble if the goal is to put the ball through the hole? Dribbling doesn't bestow them with any added ability, it's just a performance mechanic. Why can't they just hold it in their hands, run down the court, and shoot? There is an added element of routine execution that good players will do perfectly and lesser skilled players will unfortunately mess up... and at a high level, one player can apply pressure to the other player to force execution errors. What is the point? It establishes a position of potential vulnerability and a common element of skill in performance based execution. Similarly, why make player shoot the free throw? Why not just give him the points? I mean, any good player with practice should be able to hit the shot unless he makes mistakes right... it's just him standing there and shooting it from a short distance with no one contesting the shot. Why not just let him try to dunk it or just give him the points entirely? When the pressure is turned up, and the game is on the line, and the chokesies have the opportunity to surface... that's where you will distinguish yourself or risk losing the game.

How many kids do you think simply quit playing basketball because they don't want to get good at ball handling, they just like to shoot the ball... Guess what, the game doesn't need those players anyways because they don't have the drive to improve. If they can be easily turned off by something that is 'easy and routine' then they don't have what it takes to receive beatdown after beatdown in order to LEARN anything that is going to help them progress.

Also, L-Cancelling is just an additional fail-safe against Nintendo's lack of concern when it comes to competitive 1v1 game design and character balance. They don't actually care about any of that stuff when it comes to designing the game. If they aren't actually measuring out character's landing lag and balancing it so that players can play offensively (because they expect you to be using items etc anyways) then L-Cancelling is there as an additional fail-safe to correct when they poorly balance move lag on aerials.

Imagine how much more offensive brawl might be if players could L-cancel all their aerials. I'm not saying HEY LET'S HALF IT CUZ THAT'S THE SAME. It's only the same if they put thought into it. If they put no thought into it, LIKE THEY DID... and then also said, HEY! Let's include L-Cancelling... you'd end up with half the landing lag you currently have for almost all aerials. Even with brawl's floatiness and simplified edge mechanics (booooo) we would be looking at a game that probably would have killed Melee.
 
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asianaussie

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L-cancelling is rarely the reason people give up after trying, but I know multiple cases who just gave up at the mere mention of needing that reflex. This includes people who play demanding games like MvC2 and freaking DDR. It isn't the action that I object to, it's the concept.

Videogames are analogous to sports in the sense that there is competition and two people comparing skill. We do not require a baseline techskill level. The same applies for macro skills in RTS games. These are arbitrary skills, but form part of the RTS skillset. Fighting games should never be about arbitrary execution, and should focus a lot more on interactions, which L-cancelling adds virtually nothing to.

Here's the breakdown. No L-cancelling = slow, defensive uninteresting game. This is due to a landing animation. Landing animations are the real issue here, to be honest. From a game design perspective, there should have been no reason to implement them in a game with such spacial gameplay.
 
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