Kirby's Toy Box - Kirby Moveset/AT/Competitive Discussion

[Mazdamaxsti]

Yeah pp u-tilts are amazing with Kirby, still practicing to make them perfect.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its not completely safe at any point. But it can sometimes cause people with short arms to whiff a shield grab.

Up air has very little lag on it too. So thwy have to be really prcise in order to punish it before a jab or up tilt stuffs them. Its not a real approach, kirby doesnt have those. But its a good way to mix it up instead of just spacing bairs and hoping they walk into your dair.

I just really like up air cus its probably the most rewarding move we have. Ive been working on implementing up air to down air combos into my game, and kirby can churn out a lot of damage with that starter on certain characters. Falcon you can hit with faling up air ,rising down air, front hit up tilt, rising dair again, d tilt, dtilt, down throw. If you can do that whole senquence. Its a largely inescapable 50%

 

[Expert_Dual]

Up air is safe if it's spaced and autocanceled, depends on the character you use it on, it's spammable and wins neutral if you do an attack or pivot grab from it. It frame traps the shield. The front hit of up air can be safe if you are like touching their shield and autocancel just as it hits, which is harder and less practical to do but it's really good if the character you are facing has a grab you can crouch. Although Nair PP U tilt sounds super slick and stylish lol, i'm going to test if nair pp u tilt into nair chains cause that would be a crazy combo chain.

 

[Expert_Dual]

I tested it on an attacking Mario CPU, couldn't do it consecutively, only a few times, but it stops at the startup nair at like 40%. If you land an up air at 0% and follow it with an up tilt you can chain the nairs and up tilts without the perfect pivot. It's easy to DI, not really that good but if they keep on holding towards you it can probably chain until 60% or more.

 

[da K.I.D.]

After watchi poyos kirby ive seen how good nair is, its amazing against the marios and pikachu

 

[JS2D]

Hey guys, i have a question about Giant Hammer (which I can't answer myself since I don't have access to my Wii U):

Are there any characters that can't grab Kirby when he is in his fully charged stance?

 

[Asdioh]

What do you mean? Everyone should be able to grab him no problem... unless you think taller characters might go over him? In which case no, I guarantee there's no such thing.


edit: also I've always known about the 'tech' in this video, but I didn't know how easy it was to change Cstick to Attack and spam SH Upairs... it's actually really scary with Kirby, I'd recommend giving it a try. At low percents, you can SH Upair chain heavier/faster fallers really well and it's awesome.

 

[Bribery]

I've had my C-Stick set to Attack for a while but I always hated tap jump until I saw that video a few weeks ago. It's so much easier to do rising SH aerials. I used to have L set to jump as a substitute for Tap Jump but it was difficult doing SHs consistently.

Double-sticking is a pretty good technique for auto cancelling Kirby's SH and SHFF Bair as well. Almost reminds me of Brawl Bairs

 

[Phan7om]

SHFF Uair chains have been amazing, needs to become a core part of every Kirby's combo game imo.

 

[Altair357]

I've been double sticking up airs and back airs forever. Haven't really gotten good at the SHFF up airs until recently, though. My combos still aren't optimal, but they're improving.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Up air should be the move every kirby should be trying to hit with the most

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was playing a roy on my stream yesterday, and i was able to pull off dair, sour up tilt, full jump dair, sour up tilt, full jump dair, sour up tilt up air inescapably, so that string does and can work on some characters

Im going to keep wprking on this. Its super beneficial for kirby to have an exrended combo like that on the bigger chac0racters

 

[Asdioh]

Sometimes the sourspot uptilt gets powershielded after a dair for me. It might depend on the character, or it might be if they DI down and hold shield. I know there are a ton of players that don't know what to do against dair, but when players do know what they're doing, it makes dair a much weaker move, where they shield the whole thing and punish (I see opponents in Kirby videos frequently drop shield too soon and get hit hy the end of dair), or avoid dsmash followups, etc.
On the other hand, sweetspot uptilt I never see being shielded after dair.

 

[Imber]

I knew about double sticking too but I wrote it off because of my general feeling of disgust towards tap jump. After trying it though, it looks like I will be adjusting my controls yet again..

I know there are a ton of players that don't know what to do against dair, but when players do know what they're doing, it makes dair a much weaker move, where they shield the whole thing and punish (I see opponents in Kirby videos frequently drop shield too soon and get hit hy the end of dair), or avoid dsmash followups, etc.

On that topic, what is the best option to do when your dair hits their shield? Is there something you can do to keep from getting shield grabbed (or whatever the usual punish is idk)? Pretty noobish question but I don't really throw out dair on stage that much and like you said tons of people don't even know to shield the whole attack so it's rare for me to even worry about getting punished.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Sometimes the sourspot uptilt gets powershielded after a dair for me. It might depend on the character, or it might be if they DI down and hold shield. I know there are a ton of players that don't know what to do against dair, but when players do know what they're doing, it makes dair a much weaker move, where they shield the whole thing and punish (I see opponents in Kirby videos frequently drop shield too soon and get hit hy the end of dair), or avoid dsmash followups, etc.
On the other hand, sweetspot uptilt I never see being shielded after dair.

I think I can offer a bit of advice. To answer that first response, that does happen with sourspot U-Tilt. If they shield after D-Air, they can powershield U-Tilt because it does take enough time for the move to connect for the opponent to shield. In that case, you can use jab1 to cause a mix-up to sourspot U-Tilt or grab, or you can go for grab if you predict the shield, or you can go for the U-Tilt to catch jumps or U-Air. It all relies on making the opponent fear one of these options, and then constantly conditioning them around and making it work.

On that topic, what is the best option to do when your dair hits their shield? Is there something you can do to keep from getting shield grabbed (or whatever the usual punish is idk)? Pretty noobish question but I don't really throw out dair on stage that much and like you said tons of people don't even know to shield the whole attack so it's rare for me to even worry about getting punished.

The best thing to do, imo, would be to cross-up on shield. That is, use D-Air's shield stun to go to the opposite side of the player (facing left, then you go right, and vice versa). With that, it is very difficult for a punish on the move, since you can throw out a sweetspot U-Tilt towards the opponent for more pressure with a great move like U-Tilt, as explained in @ Asdioh 's comment.

 

[Phan7om]

For those who dont know, back hit/reverse (or whatever you wanna call it) U-air is gahlike. Really helps with pressure and just being overall safe when attacking behind you; especially since B-air is pretty laggy since the autocancel timing relative to the end of the hitbox is later than it was in Brawl, and U-air's autocancel timing relative to the end of the hitbox is like only slightly worse than Sheik's F-air. Of course the startup time is different. Pops em up for combos, airdodge reads into kill move (B-air or w/e), shff uair chains, juggles, etc.

Especially good on shield against characters who cant standing grab you while ducking since if you fast fall the U-air the landing animation frames 1-15 auto-ducks, which isnt really known because everyone interrupts the landing animation on frame 4-5 anyway.

Easily one of Kirby's most underrated move uses. This should be mentioned in any and all Kirby guides.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Reverse up-air is something that I've been experimenting with as well. It even true combos into u-tilt and on some characters you can even get a b-air off of it at low percents. This is extremely important because up-tilt is one of Kirby's main combo starting moves. More Kirbies need to start using this more tbh, it's about as underused as the Hup cancel which i think has a lot more use then people let on.

Edit: This might also gives the up-tilt to d-air combo another reliable set-up.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Reverse up-air is something that I've been experimenting with as well. It even true combos into u-tilt and on some characters you can even get a b-air off of it at low percents. This is extremely important because up-tilt is one of Kirby's main combo starting moves. More Kirbies need to start using this more tbh, it's about as underused as the Hup cancel which i think has a lot more use then people let on.

Edit: This might also gives the up-tilt to d-air combo another reliable set-up.

Dude u-tilt is used a lot by Kirby's. It's too safe NOT to use.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

XD I meant his up-air, sorry for the confusion though.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby's best moves are u-tilt and d-air but I see u-air's potential. Safe, combos,auto cancels, etc.

Btw, I'm not on my wii u today so I forget, but can kirby u-tilt to grab? Just wondering.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Kirby's best moves are u-tilt and d-air but I see u-air's potential. Safe, combos,auto cancels, etc.

Btw, I'm not on my wii u today so I forget, but can kirby u-tilt to grab? Just wondering.

I tested it on 3DS, and it looks like u-tilt can grab at 0%. Everything else will be too high. I don't know if I'm timing it wrong. Just take my word with a grain of salt, okay?

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

D-air to grab works at every percent as long as you get the landing hitbox of d-air though. That's always an option

 

[Mega-Spider]

D-air to grab works at every percent as long as you get the landing hitbox of d-air though. That's always an option

When I get the D-Air hit, I usually jab when my opponent is at a low percentage, and D-Smash them when they're high enough to be killed. I should grab more after landing a D-Air, 'cause that could help rack up more damage through a D-Throw or any throw.

 

[Dessa]

When I get the D-Air hit, I usually jab when my opponent is at a low percentage, and D-Smash them when they're high enough to be killed. I should grab more after landing a D-Air, 'cause that could help rack up more damage through a D-Throw or any throw.

Dair -> Utilt string is good at low percents against anybody, but especially fast fallers. In many cases, that'll get you more damage than anything else. But it won't combo if you land facing them. In those cases, besides grab and jab, dtilt (trip) can keep a string going.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Dair -> Utilt string is good at low percents against anybody, but especially fast fallers. In many cases, that'll get you more damage than anything else. But it won't combo if you land facing them. In those cases, besides grab and jab, dtilt (trip) can keep a string going.

If they're in front of you, u-tilt then pivot u-tilt right after. It keeps them in.

 

[Phan7om]

Am i the only one who thinks Dair is overrated in neutral? Its reactable if you're using it predictably, and its pretty laggy so its easy to punish (aka all I have to do is stand underneath you and Dair comes out just how rock would come out against bad Kirbies, move out of the way and punish). It seems to only work well against people who dont know how to play the matchup correctly and try to shield dair or challenge dair from below if they dont have a disjoint. Its actually kinda funny yet frustrating to watch people try to play the matchup, like even high level players get hit with in on stream and I usually laugh but understand its because they rarely play against the character. Heck time to time when I play FG Dair is an infinite against 80% of people lol. The equivalent to this would be Melee Falco always using Dair in neutral with the Dair being like 10 frames slower. Idk, maybe this meta really relies on not knowing matchups and such, but 2-3 years down the line (assuming dair doesnt get changed) you'll look back at this and laugh.

This isnt meant to come off as an insult or anything to anyone here, just my view on things. Thats why I try to make other things about Kirby's moveset known so when the meta advances and Dair becomes bad Im not stuck trying to find ways to get around it. If Kirby never becomes notable at high level, Dair will always stay "good" against most people, but I cant see that happening. I see it being useful in certain situations aside from edgeguarding (such as a ledge trap, pressure if autocanelled, airdodge reads, or combo tool[as in extends combos not a combo starter; such as Utilt > Dair > repeat?], etc.), but I see a lot of Kirbies tunnel vision Dair over and over in neutral because thats how lots of people say one should play him, and then it works so it keeps being used.

 

[Asdioh]

You're right, it's not N64 Dair. I've played enough high level/Kirby knowledgeable players to know that it's extremely punishable against good players. Against them, you can only use it to cover roll-ins, ledge options, or offstage... or possible combos like uptilt->dair like you said. You can occasionally use it as a crossup on someone's shield, but even that's risky. I've been saying this forever: all you have to do to avoid Kirby's air approaches is just roll away, because he's slow. If you're at the edge of the stage, then yeah there could be a problem, but you still have shield.

 

[Imber]

^^^ I was writing that exact same comment get out of here @ Asdioh . Something I'll add is that a move or strategy is only "bad" if your opponent knows how to punish it. If you can take advantage of a player's limited matchup experience, you should do it. Just be mindful of what you're doing and be ready to adapt if your opponent does.

Edit: Maybe this is obvious but another use for dair is punishing get-up attacks after they miss a tech. You just hop above them as they get-up attack and dair + followup for max damage. I think it requires a read in most cases but it's not too risky.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Instead of d-air, I like to use n-air. It has decent combo potential, fast with no end lag, lingering (lasts long) and less punishable than D-air.

 

[Imber]

Instead of d-air, I like to use n-air. It has decent combo potential, fast with no end lag, lingering (lasts long) and less punishable than D-air.

In neutral you mean? If you can land it I definitely think dair is a great move for punishing, but I agree that nair is much better in neutral because of the lasting hitbox and low lag.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

In neutral or as a punish? If you can land it I definitely think dair is a great move for punishing, but I agree that nair is much better in neutral because of the lasting hitbox and low lag.

Neutral, but it could be good for quick punishes.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Nair has a ton of ending lag is the problem, and it's just as fast as his Uair and Fair(10 frames)

 

[JS2D]

Nair has a ton of ending lag is the problem, and it's just as fast as his Uair and Fair(10 frames)

If they're talking about the neutral then I'm sure they autocancel it. Maybe that's what they meant by ending lag?

 

[Phan7om]

You cant autocancel Nair, from a shorthop at least. Only Uair and Bair autocancel. Dair too but only before the hitbox comes out. Nair just has one of the lowest landing lags of all aerials in the game (not autocanceled).

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

You cant autocancel Nair, from a shorthop at least. Only Uair and Bair autocancel. Dair too but only before the hitbox comes out. Nair just has one of the lowest landing lags of all aerials in the game (not autocanceled).

Cool, and it's a good move to setup a grab onstage too, and use a jab immediately after landing because it can catch people off guard.
Um may I ask the number of landing lag each oh his Ariel's have? if you know

 

[Phan7om]

Cool, and it's a good move to setup a grab onstage too, and use a jab immediately after landing because it can catch people off guard.
Um may I ask the number of landing lag each oh his Ariel's have? if you know

Nair - 10 frames of lag
Uair - 12
Fair - 13
Bair - 17
Dair - 17

But I didnt know that like 2 minutes ago. I just searched up and found this thread.

 

[JS2D]

You cant autocancel Nair, from a shorthop at least. Only Uair and Bair autocancel. Dair too but only before the hitbox comes out. Nair just has one of the lowest landing lags of all aerials in the game (not autocanceled).

Yep, you're right, it's landing lag. My bad!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Nair has a ton of ending lag is the problem, and it's just as fast as his Uair and Fair(10 frames)

N-air has the least end lag of his aerials, and has more combo potential than canceled f-air (even though I think that move has high potential that we haven't discovered).

On that note, can we talk about cancelled f-air (hitting first two hits and fast falling it so the third misses). The 2nd hit is weak and props them up a bit, making it combo into grab, d-tilt, f-tilt, and you could maybe catch people off guard with f-smash or something. Needs testing though, but I think this move is pretty underrated.

 

[Asdioh]

I recently tried comboing Fair1/2 into Fsmash, to see if Kirby could actually have a safe KO setup, but nothing good. I believe the knockback from those hits depends on how close Kirby is? Like if you hit it super close, they're barely popped up a little bit, so you can probably hit them with a smash. But being that close makes the move unsafe, so it's not any better than other KO setups. Hitting with the tip of his foot pops them back a little bit, and you can follow up, but I don't think you can get smashes to reach.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I recently tried comboing Fair1/2 into Fsmash, to see if Kirby could actually have a safe KO setup, but nothing good. I believe the knockback from those hits depends on how close Kirby is? Like if you hit it super close, they're barely popped up a little bit, so you can probably hit them with a smash. But being that close makes the move unsafe, so it's not any better than other KO setups. Hitting with the tip of his foot pops them back a little bit, and you can follow up, but I don't think you can get smashes to reach.

Ah, okay. It still combos into d-tilt, which can combo into f-smash on trip. Not a kill setup but it's a good option.