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Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small?

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Zorai

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Does anyone else ever feel like the general skill gap is only visible at the top 1% of players?

In Brawl the better player slowly pulled ahead. I just feel like in this game it's much more up in the air concerning who could win.

In addition, there is much greater upset potential in this game. I suspect that in the future, a total random could be taking names after having just played online everyday since the game's release.

Even someone with an excellent understanding of the game can lose to someone of much 'less skill', if those two players played enough matches together. This is all due to the way the game is.
 
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Pyr

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The amount of subjective stuff that's going to be posted into this thread is going to be amazing.

That said, I disagree and do not feel this way. There are visible differences in skill for skill gaps at all levels of play in this game so far. It's easy to see the differences between low, mid, high, and top level play because of how much basic fundamentals shine through in Smash 4. If someone wins a set, they likely deserved to win the set.
 

Alus

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A wise man once told me: The better you get, the more you realize how much better people are than you.

Keep in mind that this game isn't about technology or fancy moves. And it's hard to see what goes on in the heads of players without a good eye and experience. It's the same problem virtua fighter has to anyone who has never played it.

Ask yourself this: If you went up against your past self would you win? Why?

Why would you win?

Why would you lose?


Also in brawl there were wifi only players that suddenly got great. This game I hope spawns great nobody's too. Nobody's are exciting!
 

Turrin

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In Brawl the better player slowly pulled ahead. I just feel like in this game it's much more up in the air concerning who could win.
That's the difference between good and bad players. If you can lose due to random "upsets" and mistakes, you're probably not that good. The really good players know how to prevent random turn-arounds and can avoid disappointing mistakes.
 
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After watching a few major tournaments, watching players like Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, and several others, I disagree with the OP. The meta game is still in extremely early stages and we haven't seen a lot of truly "good" players yet. But of those who we have seen, it's easy to see how and why they're better.
 

W.A.C.

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Considering how this game has a bigger emphasis on reads compared to past games because of the additional landing lag, the skill gap is probably reduced for how well you can execute certain actions but raised on how well you can read your opponents. It's just much harder to get kills in this game compared to past entries. Melee is easily the least accessible game in the series though.
 
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Pyr

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Considering how this game has a bigger emphasis on reads compared to past games because of the additional landing lag, the skill gap is probably reduced for how well you can execute certain actions but raised on how well you can read your opponents. It's just much harder to get kills in this game compared to past entries. Melee is easily the least accessible game in the series though.
Additional landing lag?... Not seeing it, really.
 

W.A.C.

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It's pretty well know this game's landing lag is worse than Melee's and Brawl's.
 

Roukiske

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If by skill gap you mean an execution barrier then I agree. Many players can pretty much do anything with a character without mistake, however in the end the smarter player is going to win (probably). Decision making, smart playing, optimization, etc is a different kind of skill that many competitive games require. You can learn to play smart online and with other medias such as online videos, forums, and good commentary (Example: ZeRo's in depth commentary on what goes on in his head. he even did a Melee one once too I think).

Because execution is slightly more forgiving that gives online play a pretty good place to train, assuming you are playing good players. As long as the connection is decent then you have everything you need to become a smart player.

Also, landing lag can be better or worse depending on the character in terms of length, but the fact that actions out of shield are much faster is the real threat to landing lag, so yes, landing lag is worse because of shield, though at least the ground game is used more this way.
 
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Pyr

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It's pretty well know this game's landing lag is worse than Melee's and Brawl's.
Air dodge, ya. And I can understand that being able to air dodge every landing in Brawl with little to no issue could attribute that to general landing, but landing lag on aerials is better or worse across returning characters depending on character. General landing from a neutral state hasn't changed.
 
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DaRkJaWs

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I love how people think playing online doesn't ( keyword: shouldn't) make someone into a better player. As if online play was available for either 64 and Melee.

Anyhow I disagree. But unlike past games where movements and timing with moves in general could increase little by little over a long period of time, what makes one skilled at this game is knowing which move to pull off out of an array of possibilities, and this can get better over a long period of time. Not pulling off the best option could mean one not win the match. As a DK player I increasingly find that the only thing that prevents me from getting to the top 1% of players (I'd say im in the top 10%) is that I don't go for the right move, one that would have put me in a better spot to finish the match. Basically its still about experience, but that experience manifests itself differently. The reason being of course that putting more constraints that could mean more punishes on you (ie landing lag, lag on movesets in general including throws) guides what moves you decide to throw out, and that has an inherent defensive aspect to it that only grows into more offense based on experience. Ironically enough the one matchup I do the worst in is DK dittos. It really does not pay to go off stage to try to kill the DK unless they are on the top of the map. and it's easier for those ****ty DK's to not try themselves, staying on the stage to simply try to hit me as I try to get back on the stage (hint: its very easy to punish DK simply trying to get back on the stage). Someone like me who tries too hard? gets punished for it.
I should add that new tech in this game is only good if it leads one to more options, but one still has to know which option to go for.

With that said I really think the best game in the entire series was smash 64, I mean there were some imbalance issues with that game and it was obvious they didn't put too much time thinking about the movesets, but having no lag and only having to worry about not getting into opponents combos really made it a great game. I didn't appreciate melee towards the end because having to do some of the tech with that **** gamecube controller was frankly not something I appreciated.
 
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PMMikey

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I honestly think the level of this game as of now is pretty good, it's always nice to be able to see a new face come into play instaed of the same four or five players. A breath of fresh air if you will.
 

FimPhym

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The idea that maybe, perhaps, a wifi player will dominate sometime in the future perhaps being proof this is a low skill game is super cute. For anyone familiar with street fighter 4, WolfKrone started as an online warrior I am pretty sure, and continued to do a lot of online play. He absolutely dominated the scene a few years back.

Well, perhaps that's to be expected from the random, low skill, small and competitive joke scene that is street fighter 4.
 

Raijinken

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I promise, Zero won't lose to me.

But seriously, the skill gap is not too small. Particularly as customs are adopted (increasing the average character power) and stagelists expand reasonably (increasing stage knowledge and technique floors), if anything the skill gap widens. The people who can't handle Timber Counter or Kong Cyclone will lose, and those who can will win.

Even someone with an excellent understanding of the game can lose to someone of much 'less skill', if those two players played enough matches together. This is all due to the way the game is.
That happens in every single Smash game. Predictability is a weakness, and repeated encounters result in an acclimation to a particular opponent's tricks.
 

Big-Cat

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Execution wise, yes. Application wise, no.
 

Zorai

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I promise, Zero won't lose to me.
Well you see, you missed the point. Zero can lose to a player no one has ever heard of, this just happens to be far more likely in Smash 4 than say Brawl for example. Especially with 2 stocks. Brawl was more like chess while the current Smash 4 meta is just.. different.

Just give the wifi heroes time to come out to tournaments and this game will have even more upsets than Street Fighter 4 has had. It's only been a few months yet people think the top players are gods who can't lose and it's set in stone. Relax lmfao, competitive Smash is nowhere near as big as it should be right now..
 
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DaRkJaWs

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Zeros skill in sm4sh is actually pretty large, it will be a while until someone can dethrone him. He's too consistent for one to think otherwise, for that random upset to come in where he could possibly lose a set rather than a game.
 

Alondite

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Skill differences are never compressed, nor exaggerated. Obviously matchups an whatnot play a role, but If two players have a close match, then they are likely close in skill. The game isn't giving less skilled players a better chance against more skilled players, that's not how competition works.


Well you see, you missed the point. Zero can lose to a player no one has ever heard of, this just happens to be far more likely in Smash 4 than say Brawl for example. Especially with 2 stocks. Brawl was more like chess while the current Smash 4 meta is just.. different.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If some no-name gives Zero a run, it's not because Sm4sh compresses the skill gap. Zero's not automatically better than everyone just because he's Zero; some no-name could very easily be on his level.

The style of gameplay is irrelevant. People have it in their heads that styles of gameplay are somehow related to skill. Things like "aggression favors skilled players," and "camping is cheap and for unskilled." That's nonsense. You play by the rules of the game and do whatever gives you the best chance of winning. The best player isn't the player who wins by playing the game a particular way, it's the player who wins, period.
 

Smash Arena

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Well, at least there's no random tripping mechanic.

Patch 1.07 Release Notes:
-Added Random Tripping
<3 Mashed Potato Soccer Eye
 
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Zorai

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Skill differences are never compressed, nor exaggerated. Obviously matchups an whatnot play a role, but If two players have a close match, then they are likely close in skill. The game isn't giving less skilled players a better chance against more skilled players, that's not how competition works.
My point still stands that this game is more capable of producing shocking upsets. At high and top level gameplay, it matters less who is the better player and more who is playing better (there is a difference). Execution becomes a pitiful matter once you're talking past mid-level gameplay, I think we all can agree on that much.

Everyone including Zero makes mistakes and mistakes can be taken farther in Sm4sh than in say Brawl. This is the same kind of element present in Street Fighter and the same reason that game has had more upsets than any competitive game ever. Landing hits just takes people farther, that's why characters with great grab games/strings are unanimously considered better by all players of low mid and high skill levels.
 
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pikazz

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the Skill cap is sadly little less than it is to melee, thanks that Smash4 doesnt have those "tech" from melee thats pretty much requires to have to not being a punchbag.

however, I found that skill cap much better than before. its still a high bar between them since a skilled player thinks of all options while a not skilled one doesnt. with this "lower" skillcap, it opens up for more "skilled players" that do indeed are skilled, but doesnt neccesary need those techs to prove that they are good! giving the smash scene more variarity than just the "top smasher"
 

Raijinken

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Well you see, you missed the point. Zero can lose to a player no one has ever heard of, this just happens to be far more likely in Smash 4 than say Brawl for example. Especially with 2 stocks. Brawl was more like chess while the current Smash 4 meta is just.. different.

Just give the wifi heroes time to come out to tournaments and this game will have even more upsets than Street Fighter 4 has had. It's only been a few months yet people think the top players are gods who can't lose and it's set in stone. Relax lmfao, competitive Smash is nowhere near as big as it should be right now..
I mean, fame has very little to do with skill, fortunately. I completely agree that 2-stocks is a bad policy that needs widespread changing. But I think the trick isn't that the skill gap is too small, but rather that the playerbase is too scattered. An entirely unheard of player (on the larger scale) could quite feasibly be a super-good player over-all, and simply lack the publicity that comes with being considered the top player in the world.

the Skill cap is sadly little less than it is to melee, thanks that Smash4 doesnt have those "tech" from melee thats pretty much requires to have to not being a punchbag.

however, I found that skill cap much better than before. its still a high bar between them since a skilled player thinks of all options while a not skilled one doesnt. with this "lower" skillcap, it opens up for more "skilled players" that do indeed are skilled, but doesnt neccesary need those techs to prove that they are good! giving the smash scene more variarity than just the "top smasher"
While the total skill ceiling is lowered, the minimum knowledge and skill needed to compete viably is also significantly lower. Even though a less-skilled and knowledgeable player still stands little chance against an experienced and skilled veteran, the barrier to entry is lower. There's nothing widespread in the current competitive metagame that any average player is unlikely to discover on their own (contrast wavedashing or L-canceling), and that in turn makes entering the competitive scene significantly less daunting. Personally, I think the increased accessibility will more than make up for the lower technical skill ceiling.
 
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Muro

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yeah, it's as low as it's ever been with smash games. I think when it's all said and done this game will be known as the rock papers scissors of smash.
 

Zorai

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yeah, it's as low as it's ever been with smash games. I think when it's all said and done this game will be known as the rock papers scissors of smash.
This is very well said.

I mean, fame has very little to do with skill, fortunately. I completely agree that 2-stocks is a bad policy that needs widespread changing. But I think the trick isn't that the skill gap is too small, but rather that the playerbase is too scattered. An entirely unheard of player (on the larger scale) could quite feasibly be a super-good player over-all, and simply lack the publicity that comes with being considered the top player in the world.
It's not necessarily a bad policy, and this isn't the only factor for why this is. It's the game itself.

Other than that your whole post is pretty much agreeing with what I've been saying. Overall I just think everything I've said will come to surface. Just by the way the game is and through a basic understanding of competitive elements, we can clearly see where this game is going.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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There was a wild west of sorts with Brawl where everyone was viable and all sorts of powerful players were doing stuff, before all the powerful stuff the metagame is based around took hold. The game is young; people will adapt and skill gaps will become bigger (and likely much, much bigger); it just needs time to develop.
 
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Cornstalk

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Smash 4 being accessible to new players is healthy for the Smash community as a whole.

I can watch matches of a player like ZeRo and think, "With practice, anyone has the potential to reach his level." This is because, as it was stated earlier in this topic, Smash 4 is heavily reliant on reads and the fundamentals. Very few characters require crazy fast button inputs to be effective meaning simple things like being able to execute your desired attack 100% of the time is a huge step in the right direction.

Compare that to trying to learn Melee where a good portion of players still struggle to wavedash in a pressure free setting. Forget about ever being able to drill shine shield pressure someone with Fox. Most people don't have the patience, hand eye coordination, and/or time to reach that level. Are the pro players WAY more fun to watch? Of course they are. But the average Joe is completely daunted by the idea of ever reaching that level of mastery.


So why is smash 4 important? Entry level. Players genuinely interested in the game can get some confidence and fundamentals in Smash 4 while likely find a community/crew/tournament scene. As they get better, the truly dedicated (and gifted) looking for more will easily be able to shift over to Melee or Project M. This can lead to fresh blood on an older scene that never would have found the game without the accessibility of Smash 4.

Will those players join the smash gods for melee? They might. But as long as they're willing to try, tournament ascendance will go up. That's good new for everyone. More people to play with, more diversity, and bigger tournament pots to strive to win.


TL;DR:
Smash 4 is a potential gateway drug to bring new players to the melee/project m scene.
 

Flamecircle

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This is very well said.



It's not necessarily a bad policy, and this isn't the only factor for why this is. It's the game itself.

Other than that your whole post is pretty much agreeing with what I've been saying. Overall I just think everything I've said will come to surface. Just by the way the game is and through a basic understanding of competitive elements, we can clearly see where this game is going.
These sure are a lot of vague statements

Where's the game going, then?
 

stancosmos

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Does anyone else ever feel like the general skill gap is only visible at the top 1% of players?

In Brawl the better player slowly pulled ahead. I just feel like in this game it's much more up in the air concerning who could win.

In addition, there is much greater upset potential in this game. I suspect that in the future, a total random could be taking names after having just played online everyday since the game's release.

Even someone with an excellent understanding of the game can lose to someone of much 'less skill', if those two players played enough matches together. This is all due to the way the game is.
I don't really see it that way, online i crush 75% of people, and the other 25% crush me. so that feels like a noticible skill gap. Beyond that, it's a new game. Melee pros have been playing for 10+ years, of course they will be better than the sm4sh pros who have been playing for 6 months. I remember when brawl and when melee started, the professional scene looked very attainable. I didn't feel like i was that much worse than anyone who played at all, but now i don't think i could even touch the low level pros. Right now, generally everyone playing online or in tournament has been playing for around 6 months, so there really shouldn't be much of a skill gap yet. most people got the game near release, and played it since.
 

MezzoMe

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Ehm
Here we go again
Nope
I think that people define "skill" as they please, not differently from how they define "Nintendo Difference" or "next gen", using words to give something absolutely abstract the impression of being real.
In other words I have yet seen noone using a skill-meter and measuring someone's skill.
QI is controversial after 110 years and we pretend that we know what is and is not skill in a game that we play from a bunch of months?
Doesn't look like something you can be that sure about.
Like QI some people determine someone's skill by seeing usually single aspects or single istances, while they should at least determine it by her capability of adapting.
What does that mean?
Let's take a random player that has gone under severe training and has nigh-perfect coordinations.
If he chooses get-up attack everytime he is slammed to the ground, will his "skill" prevent him from being chainchoked to death?
If gets predictable with a recovery pattern, will that skill prevent him from being gimped?
If he DIes randomly attacks, will his skill prevent him from being zero-to-death'd?

The skill of a player is determined not before but during the battle itself, when neurons synchronize in order to costantly be one step above of your opponent, and if you defeat him, then with a pretty good chance you are better than him, and when you aquire this with multiple opponents you might be referred as skilled player.
Tl;dr:
The one that wins is the one that can be called "more skilled", not vice versa.
 

DaRkJaWs

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Ehm
Here we go again
Nope
I think that people define "skill" as they please, not differently from how they define "Nintendo Difference" or "next gen", using words to give something absolutely abstract the impression of being real.
In other words I have yet seen noone using a skill-meter and measuring someone's skill.
QI is controversial after 110 years and we pretend that we know what is and is not skill in a game that we play from a bunch of months?
Doesn't look like something you can be that sure about.
Like QI some people determine someone's skill by seeing usually single aspects or single istances, while they should at least determine it by her capability of adapting.
What does that mean?
Let's take a random player that has gone under severe training and has nigh-perfect coordinations.
If he chooses get-up attack everytime he is slammed to the ground, will his "skill" prevent him from being chainchoked to death?
If gets predictable with a recovery pattern, will that skill prevent him from being gimped?
If he DIes randomly attacks, will his skill prevent him from being zero-to-death'd?

The skill of a player is determined not before but during the battle itself, when neurons synchronize in order to costantly be one step above of your opponent, and if you defeat him, then with a pretty good chance you are better than him, and when you aquire this with multiple opponents you might be referred as skilled player.
Well judging from this post I can tell your IQ isn't very high. And we can tell by the way ppl play their skill level. For example anyone who watches zero play knows that he is the better player and that is pretty much determined before a match begins. Anyway you're just talking a lot of dumb childish nonsense and you actually got IQ backwards, amazing.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Okay, let's start this off right. First of all, let's clear up something important:

It's pretty well know this game's landing lag is worse than Melee's and Brawl's.
First of all, this isn't true; average landing lag in this game is definitely lower than Brawl at the very least. Melee is a strange, non-linear comparison since, while Melee has less landing lag on aerials on average, smash 4 has considerably wider and more useful auto-cancel windows so lagless landings are way more common in 4 than in Melee. It's more about a different meta where you use your aerials early instead of late and do more full hops and don't fast fall as often since you're fishing for auto-cancels a lot more in this engine. This is also a really strange way to phrase things since, even if smash 4 had strictly more landing lag on aerials than Melee, that wouldn't be "worse". Since when does the amount of landing lag aerials have have anything to do with game quality? Lines of thinking like this are way too common and really hurt our collective ability to understand these games we play.

---

I'm actually seeing much more pronounced skill gaps in 4 than I saw in past smash games honestly because I feel like this game has way more "footsies" than any other smash game mostly because jumping around (which resets situations) is so much worse. In Melee jumping put you in that state where you had these insanely safe attacks (due to how L-cancel worked in combination with the fortresses that were Jigglypuff and Peach in the air), and in Brawl, jumping put you in that state where you could fling yourself around with copious invincibility since Brawl airdodge was pretty ridiculous. In 4, when you jump, you're taking a huge risk every time. Landings are intrinsically unsafe due to airdodge landing lag (and pretty high average ground speed helps!), and the way auto-cancels work makes doing late aerials to bail yourself out of trouble more of a guessing game than an actually solid escape. The implication of this is that you just don't jump as much and rely instead on asserting stage control on the ground and trying to bully your opponent into situations where they are forced to choose between risky options. This is hard to do and hard to avoid, and when I see players of uneven skill meet, I often see extremely decisive victories due to skill gaps in this regard. When players are close in skill, I generally see the results come down to clean adaptation and decision making to force these decisions on the opponent; it feels to me like it's almost always crisp and clear that the winning player was actually playing better in this game.

I also think people confuse skill ceiling and skill floor. This game definitely has the lowest skill floor of any smash game; there's a pretty hard limit to how much you can suck at smash 4, and you don't need very much practice at all to be able to play in a coherent way that can look respectable. This results in far fewer total blow-out games among weaker players than in past smash games; even bad players at least have the bare minimum of ability to fight back. On the other hand, the ceiling is enormous; just look at what zero does to everyone he plays (generally brutal games that make it super obvious he's the best by far), and I strongly suspect even he is just barely scratching the surface of this game's depth. The game's skill ceiling, how much you can improve, is just obviously very large; it's my suspicion it will prove to be the largest of any smash game, but we won't be able to be sure of that for the next several years. I'd also like to make it clear what claiming the opposite means. If you believe this game has a low skill ceiling, then you need to offer some very serious explanation for why you aren't winning nationals since a low skill ceiling means it's easy to get as good at the game as you can get. You also need to explain how it's even possible for zero to be as good as he is versus everyone else; games in which a very small number of players just dominate everyone else are generally games in which the community as a whole is very far from reaching the skill ceiling.

I'd also like to share another observation that I think speaks well for this game. In early Brawl, it took about a year for top Melee players to really stop being a factor at a tournament level; they relied for a long time on skill transfer from Melee and it just worked until the meta grew a lot in Brawl. In 4, being good at Melee never seemed to help all that much, and even though you honestly see less cross-over, when you do see it the results just don't happen. If you don't specifically practice 4, you just don't win at it, and that tells me that smash 4 pushes players really hard. Like if this game didn't push skill, I'd expect to see players who don't care or don't try winning, and honestly, I'm just not seeing that at all in this game. I disagree 100% with the premise of this topic and actually feel the exact opposite.

Also to be clear, I'm not interested in smash game vs smash game arguments, but I do think that if you aren't fully immersed in 4, it might be easy not to notice the meta. 4 is a beautiful game, and it's growing better and better at an incredible rate. I know there will always be Melee-heads especially since the gameplay dynamics of 4 are even more different from Melee than Brawl was, but if that's you and 4 is seeming bad to you, I'd just ask you to consider that maybe what makes 4 great is just outside of your sight as opposed to non-existent. If that's not you and you just feel like you can't improve at 4 which is the source of your criticism, I really suggest looking within instead of blaming the game. Just watch your game with a super critical eye asking where you could do things better, and look at the micro level and not just the macro level (if you take a step forward at a bad time or fail to take a step forward when you should, that matters a lot!). You should find, honestly even if you're a top player, tons of spots where you didn't do the best thing even within your understanding, and if you watch others play especially those better than you you'll probably also discover that your understanding itself has a lot of room to grow. I know as a player I feel like I'm improving every time I play just from testing what does and doesn't work in my own play, and then I watch someone like dabuz who I can kinda relate to in terms of playstyle but who just outclasses me hard as a player and just see so plainly that I still have so much further to go. With that being the case, how could I possibly feel bad about the game?
 

TheReflexWonder

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For all it's worth, 4's airdodge is pretty stupid, too. It's the ground options available after a landing that made Brawl airdodge so ridiculous.
 

Roukiske

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Well judging from this post I can tell your IQ isn't very high. And we can tell by the way ppl play their skill level. For example anyone who watches zero play knows that he is the better player and that is pretty much determined before a match begins. Anyway you're just talking a lot of dumb childish nonsense and you actually got IQ backwards, amazing.
I believe in some countries outside the US, they use QI instead of IQ...

Edit: But to add to the topic, that's the beauty of a fighting game, it is an interaction between 2 people. Instead of deciding who wins by measuring their individual skill, its decided by seeing how their skills react to one another. We can have outcomes like:

A > B
B > C
C > A
 
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MezzoMe

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Well judging from this post I can tell your IQ isn't very high. And we can tell by the way ppl play their skill level. For example anyone who watches zero play knows that he is the better player and that is pretty much determined before a match begins. Anyway you're just talking a lot of dumb childish nonsense and you actually got IQ backwards, amazing.
If a way of how one plays determines his skill level, how does one know ZeRo's skill level, and thus how he plays, if he still has to start playing, at least against that specific opponent? I already said that if you can show to be the better player repeatedly you are most likely a skillfull player, but that doesn't automatically mean that he has to win every match, wich is the point of the OP.

Also JSYK, from where I come it's actually called QI, and for that matter mine is 126.
 
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EdreesesPieces

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This skill level difference you are seeing IMO is 100% the result of using 2 stocks instead of 3. If you played melee or brawl on 2 stocks you would feel the same result in melee and brawl, and new players would take out experienced players a lot more often. The less stocks there are, the less adapting to your opponent is a factor. The stock reduction is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Smash 4 IS more about reading the opponent, but it's not enough to make up for the stock difference.

For example, if a less experienced player relied on 1 gimmick to get a gimp stock, he would already be 50% on his way to winning the match. If this happened in Brawl, you are only 33% through winning the match, and if your opponent is better at adapting than you are, they will be more likely to catch up to your playstyle over the course of the next 2 stocks, meanwhile you are playing the exact same strategies without adapting through the match as your opponent is.

I firmly believe this feeling is a result of a 2 stock game alone and nothing else.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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This skill level difference you are seeing IMO is 100% the result of using 2 stocks instead of 3. If you played melee on 2 stocks you would feel the same result in melee, and new players would take out experienced players.
Do we really have a situation where high-level players are losing to randoms, though?
 

EdreesesPieces

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Do we really have a situation where high-level players are losing to randoms, though?
Maybe not TOP pros but newer players vs nicely skilled players (middle of the road) you definitely have more upset than you did in Brawl's early days, at least in Socal we do. The TOP players are on such a high skill gap that the 2 stocks effect isn't so apparant, but for other skill gaps (beginner to medium) the 2 stock effect makes a huge difference.

If you think about having to beat the best players in a 2 stock match or a 4 stock match, and you played 100 games with each other, which do you think you'd be more likely to take a few games off?

I honestly don't think it is a matter of debate that as the number of stocks increase, the chance of beating a player who is overall better than you (and by better, I mean on average places higher than you in tournaments) increases in linear fashion.

The thread is really asking if the game mechanics themselves contribute to any skill gap difference, and to me the answer is no, and I am attributing this feeling he is having to the stocks difference entirely.
 
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Zorai

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I feel like Smash 4 is more like a fighting game than any other title in the series. Being that way, it really makes it so that it's more important who's playing better than who is the better player (at the high level at least). The game is balanced in a really strange and awkward way, but it's balanced nonetheless. Even if we broke the balance by making tons of discoveries, not only would those be patched but we'd just have a repeat of Brawl where everyone flocks to the 10 viable characters.

Maybe not TOP pros but newer players vs nicely skilled players (middle of the road) you definitely have more upset than you did in Brawl's early days

The thread is really asking if the game mechanics themselves contribute to any skill gap difference, and to me the answer is no, and I am attributing this feeling he is having to the stocks difference entirely.
Addressing these two points, first of all I've also noticed this. and it's because some element of the game, whether that's 2 stocks or the game engine itself, is clearly causing this fluctuation. In early Brawl days, you really didn't see anyone who played Melee for several years prior losing to a newcomer who may have just been playing on wifi for a few months. It remained this way for a long while.

Nowadays the game is so easy people come in just knowing the raw essentials of the game and just doing their thing with luigi or sonic or whatever and taking out people who played Brawl for like 5 years lol.

I really like the analogy: this game is the rock paper scissors of Smash.
 
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TSM ZeRo

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A format of 2 stocks and rage definitely makes upsets much easier to happen. That I agree with. I think when someone wins a close game, it wasn't much of an outplay. But when someone solidly wins a game, then it means much more than it usually does.
 
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