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Intro To Samus + Character Match-Up's

Discussion in 'Samus' started by AIDS, Jul 27, 2008.

  1. vadgama

    vadgama Smash Journeyman

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    You're telling me to purposefully put myself in the air and attack with aerials on a high tier character. Not only that but to not L-Cancel my SH's since you didn't specify shl or shffl in your last post. Just sh and shff.......interesting.
  2. Corigames

    Corigames Smash Hero

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    Or you could just assume that you should L cancel any time you can so that saying to do so is unnecessary.

    :phone:
  3. Violence

    Violence Smash Lord

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    *facepalm* I'm sorry I have to specify that you should do something that's strictly better than not doing it.

    What's wrong with putting yourself in the air with Samus? A lot of people keep thinking, air bad, ground good. She committed to a dsmash, and it didn't hit you. The easiest way to punish this is either with a projectile, a long range attack, or from above.

    I suppose you'll tell me now that you fight Jigglypuff without aerials.
  4. vadgama

    vadgama Smash Journeyman

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    Clarification is better than just assuming things. When he specified shffl in the previous post and then purposefully didn't specify L-Canceling for both sh and shff in the next post. It is logical to question that.

    Edit: Also, I just wanted to see what Violence's reaction would be to that comment.

    Nothings wrong with Samus's aerials. I just tend to do better against upper tiers when I'm grounded, that's all. Thanks for the tips.
  5. KidWithChemicals

    KidWithChemicals Smash Cadet

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    well, SH dair doesn't need to be l-canceled if you don't FF which i think is what he was saying to do. actually you have time to do a nair as well after the dair. i'll specify that you should L-cancel the nair. its pretty good to be honest, the nair comes out so close to the ground that, you have time to jab/dashattack/rising nair (of course, this is all in reaction to whether or not your moves were shielded). rising nair is really nice, if you know they're going for a shield grab.

    anyway, i would say not to do ground attacks on peach when she dsmashes. everything just clanks with it, so i don't really find a point. just grab her, or shoot a smash missile at her. it forces her into shield after the dsmash (if it doesn't hit her), and now you can pressure her however you find appropriate.
  6. GunPunch

    GunPunch Smash Apprentice

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    alright, haven't seen some new posts in the samus thread for a while now.

    so, lately i've been having a lot of trouble with the marth MU. i just get bodied most of the match. i think i remember reading to DI away from marth's (to avoid fairs to dair combos). but the worst thing for me is when i get juggled. first, what's the best thing to do when u get thrown up? sometimes i try to jump, but i seem to always get hit out of it. how should i DI, and should i jump, down-b, or something else? that's low percents and the start of getting juggled. when u get launched up, out of marth's reach, do you go for to the side and try for the ledge? (avoids juggling, but then you're getting edgeguarded by marth, which usually sucks). i've seen Plup matches where he airdodges sometimes and other times does the bomb jump but adds another bomb right after the bomb jump.

    also, against marth, is wavedash off the ledge to nair or run-off nair better? or is it situational

    finally, random question: in your match stats, do u usually have more ground or aerial attacks? (i usually have a lot more aerials and i think i need more ground attacks)

    Thanks!
  7. Corigames

    Corigames Smash Hero

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    "i think i remember reading to DI away from marth"
    Also try mixing in Down and Away DI and Up and Away as well.

    "what's the best thing to do when u get thrown up?"
    I like to drop a single bomb. Sometimes, the sword will hit the bomb and bounce you away from danger. If he doesn't immediately chase you in the air, you can follow the bomb. But that's really general. There's a lot you can do depending on the stage and how the Marth is playing. The most important thing is don't try to muscle through him, because I do that a lot and get smacked in the face for it.

    I like grabbing the ledge and doing a drop-off nair. Marth almost always comes up from just below the ledge, even if he's trying to land on the stage. Doing this nair gives you invulnerability and covers a wide area that Marth wants to go through. That said, you use all of them depending on what you need to do. Heck, you could drop, hit him and the stage with the grapple, pull-up, wall jump, nair.... but only if you think it'll work.

    Ground. Spot dodge/punish is nice against Marth. Utilt, Ftilt, etc.
  8. McNinja

    McNinja Smash Ace

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    crouch cancel. A lot. And you really have to focus on spacing. Those are the 2 main things that pushed me through my Marth difficulties.

    :phone:
  9. GunPunch

    GunPunch Smash Apprentice

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    lol, ok. "muscle through" pretty much sums it up. i think that might be a huge part of my problems. i'm trying to play smarter. sometimes i go too aggressive and things don't work. i'll def have to couch cancel more. again, i think i go too aggressive and forget the awesome gay things that samus can do. i'll try your guys suggestions. THANKS!

    (also, "marth difficulties" is so calm. i'd say marth induced rage. lol)
  10. iRobinhoood

    iRobinhoood Smash Lord

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    Just found out today, after maining Samus for roughly the whole summer, that you can grapple without having to air dodge >.>
  11. bubbaking

    bubbaking Smash Hero

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    Lolz! :p

    Switching topics, I've just realized that I can't deal with good Falcos at all! I thought I was fairly decent at the MU until I ran into a Falco who could shut me down offensively. I know HugS said at some point that Samus:spacees is probably even, but I just don't get how for Falco. I can kind of understand Fox, because Fox can't really prevent Samus from applying pressure without running away, so Samus can kinda corner him. Falco, though... (>.<) I've already gotten accustomed to dealing with lasers, but I find his stuff much harder to CC than Fox's. Every time I manage to apply shield pressure with jabs and tilts, he manages to flip it around on me somehow. I could have sworn he even punished my spaced ftilts on his shield (which I thought were supposed to be nigh unpunishable). I'm starting to hate this MU even more than Falcon and Marth. Actually, I kinda like Marth. I don't think he's that bad...

    Edit: I also cannot stand how Falco can just spam lasers right in Samus's face. That's another major distinction I see between fighting against Fox and Falco. Fox has to fight clean. If he tries jank like that, he gets hurt for it. Falco gets to hop up and down right in front of you and there isn't much Samus can do about it, or at least that's how I feel. Help is needed!!! :urg:
  12. Andymosity

    Andymosity Smash Journeyman

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    When Falcos laser in my face, I shield them, wave dash in and up-b. this works because you don't necessarily have to completely reach falco to land the up-b, you just have to get close enough to suck him in.
    In a broader sense, I agree with HugS on the MU being 50/50, especially in platform stages. Some samii don't realize how useful platforms are. You can drop from a platform then missile a falco that's spamming laser's on the bottom main platform. this forces them to stop. just keep doing it until they get hit, stop laser spamming, or you see an opening and grab them while they shield the missile.
    d-tilt is also your best friend in this match up. d-smash when you're near the edge.
    I think this matchup is oer 50/50 for the gankability on spacies. the better your edge-guarding gets, the exponentially better this MU will get for you. you gotta get pro with your u-tilts. ****en make them hate that move
    SUNG475 likes this.
  13. Gerbality

    Gerbality Smash Journeyman

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    it's probably worthwhile to mention that it is possible to short hop fast fall smash missles, even though it is incredibly difficult.
    SUNG475 likes this.
  14. bubbaking

    bubbaking Smash Hero

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    That is pretty well-known, though... <__< It's probably Samus' hardest tech, though. :ohwell:

    Edit: Since this is the char MU thread, I figured I might as well re-post these here. Some old/new insight:
  15. GrilledCheese

    GrilledCheese Smash Rookie

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    What does the Samus vs Pika MU usually look like? Sorry if this too off topic.
  16. iRobinhoood

    iRobinhoood Smash Lord

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    It looks like uair is annoying when Samus is recovering from above. Ask questions over in the Extenderrrrrrrrrrrr thread. That's where most of us Sami' discuss things. I can't really comment on the Pika MU but I'm sure others can.
  17. GrilledCheese

    GrilledCheese Smash Rookie

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    Thanks. I'll head over to the Extenderrrrrrrrrrrrr thread. I sort of assumed a question about the Pika/ Samus MU would fit in a thread about Samus MU's.
  18. bubbaking

    bubbaking Smash Hero

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    That actually does fit here as well as in the Extender thread. <__<

    Samus vs Pika is weird. We out-range Pika pretty badly with tilts but he's so fast... We can stuff jump-ins (70% of Pika's approaches) with ftilt and utilt, but Pika can work around them and once he gets in, he gets super annoying really quickly. He also kills us early with Fox-power usmash. I personally prefer to camp him out if I can, but even in this aspect, Pika is weird. On one hand, Pika has a hard time getting past Homing Missiles, but on the other hand, Pika's own aerial jolts are pretty annoying as well and Pika can usually hop right over Super Missiles while throwing them out.
  19. Corigames

    Corigames Smash Hero

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    Ok, so I've overhauled my post on this thread. I think I have all of the basics down and now I'm going to start working on the character MUs. If anyone wants to write-up an MU for me in the format that I made the Fox one, feel free to do so and either PM me or post it here and I'll incorporate it into the thread. This also goes for any notes, tips, strategies, or otherwise that you think should be added in on other parts of the post.
    343 and ManoxMano like this.
  20. Barbie

    Barbie Samus

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    @Corigames Here is a MU layout for sheik, hope its to your standards ^_^


    Sheik:

    Arguably samus’s worst MU, and for good reason, needles cancel every projectile samus has, including a fully charged neural B, and she can hit both samus and the bombs while samus is off stage for very safe and easy gimps. Grabs lead into down throw fair, up air, or Bair at almost every percent, and your DI needs to be impeccable. Overall, samus needs to write a book on what sheik is going to do, in order to win a match, and sheik just need to be the best sheik she can be.


    The Neutral Game:

    Unfortunately there is not much samus can do that is effective against sheik. You do outspace and out prioritize sheik when it comes to tilts, but most sheiks are just looking for a grab anyway, which samus can keep a sheik from doing with a jab, tilt or throwing out a grab hoping for the best. You should start off this match spacing with missiles, dash dancing and wave dashing into forward tilts, and just shielding all standing needles sheik throws at you. The number of ways sheik can approach you are limited, so knowing what options you have to combat sheik are very essential in this MU. Listing the most common options are: run up dash attack, run up grab, run up short hop fair, run up short hop needle à fair or grab, run up shield.

    Counter to each of these options:

    Sheik Dash Attack: our dash attack will hit sheik first because the hit box of their dash attack is on the back part of their body, a tilt, simply a jab, jc grab.

    Run up grab: Same options as Dash attack, as well as spot dodge à any move of your choice.

    Run up short hop fair: Wavedash back into fsmash/uptilt, take the hit of the fair to CC downsmash, stand in place up tilt, get underneath sheik à rising upair or nair, run past the short hopping sheik into a bair.

    Short hop needle: This is a rather tricky approach because you can never really know if its going to be a needle into fair or just a fair. Rule of thumb in which I use, the sheik never really used this option if she doesn’t have any needles charged, so be sure to know if she has none or some stored up. But as soon as you see a sheik jump in front of you, just get underneath her, because her options are very limited at that point, especially if you opt for a rising up air.

    Run up shield: This is the most annoying option higher level sheiks do, where you just need to be patient, and NOT THROW OUT ANY BIG MOVES, they will let it hit their shield, and then get a free grab, you must space tilts or jab pressure their shield, should this be done to you, or just retreat slightly. Sheik can never really pressure your shield, but you can pressure theirs, they want you to attack, and they want as many free grabs as possible to get you out of CC percent.

    Remember all of these are just most common options, and should your playstyle against the sheik get too stale, they will adapt to what you notice about their game and punish you for not adapting accordingly.


    Edge guarding:

    Sorry, but once again this is going to be the vital point of the match for you, can you avoid her needles and get back to the stage? What makes samus able to fight with the rest of the cast is her ability to live forever, but if you die at 70-100 because sheik can hit a few of your bombs and kill you off early, you are going to have a rough time with this match up. You need to see where sheik is standing when throwing the needles, and the angle the needles will go from the point of release while in the air, (it’s a 45 degree angle downward when she throws them from the air, and should they be thrown from the apex of the jump downward, you need to either have passed that point of the last needle, or be just outside of the 45 degree angle mark to avoid). Fast falling after sheik just positions herself for the onslaught of needles into a zair to grapple the stage, or use of your second jump after the fast fall are your best bet to avoiding the needles, but be sure to still be aware of what the sheik on stage is doing, because she may come after you with a nair, bair or fair.

    As for edgeguarding sheik, this is a very simple process, once sheik is off the stage, just grab the ledge, make her up B onto the stage, and punish accordingly with a nair, fsmash, bair, or whatever you deem to be most appropriate. If she does try to clip you with the hitbox of her up b, you can nair the sheik right before the hitbox appears, because she is actually vulnerable for a few frames there during her up b.


    Stages:

    Personally my favorite stages for this MU are battlefield, FoD, then Dreamland. Just having the platforms to missile spam help force sheik approach you, but depending on how platform needle campy the sheik is, this may work against you.


    Fountain of Dreams: You can recover pretty low on FoD, but what I like about this stage is the changing platform heights make it difficult for sheik to needle camp without getting naired by the samus, and the smaller the stage, the less she can move around.


    Yoshi’s Story: can be a good option if you are confident about teching sheik’s downthrows to get away from the follow ups, but you will die on this stage much earlier than any other, however because of the low hanging platforms, it makes needle sniping for sheik much more difficult.


    Final Destination: I personally hate FD as a stage for samus because of her limited mobility without platforms around, but for this match up, it takes away a platform for sheik to hop on to get more angles for hitting our bombs, and she can’t camp platforms, making it a much more up front match up.


    Pokemon Stadium: The missile spam makes Sheik approach you in this MU, however you need to get the lower missiles nearly at ground level or sheik will crouch right under them and get to you, as you are firing the next missile.


    Battlefield/Dream Land: These two stages are relatively the same in the MU, except sheik is better able to up b onto the platforms of battlefield, and should you DI up and towards the corners of the stage, on dreamland, it will make it harder for sheik to get the earlier kills. However most of sheik’s attacks to get the kill will be her fair, which sends you at a downward angle.
  21. JerkPhil

    JerkPhil Smash Journeyman

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    Nice KLit :)
    I like to punish Sheik's upBs with Dair to a follow up, or charge shot when available too.
    My stage preference in the match up is PS > DL64 > FD = FoD > BF=YS.

    PS pros: Sheik can't kill upwards in PAL, so the low ceiling isn't a problem, the platforms are great for missiles, and they can't reach for a platform when recovering.
    Cons: Somewhat harder to recover. Transformations helps Sheik more than us in my opinion.

    DL64 pros: Huge blastbox, so we live much longer. Easy to grapple. Sheik has a harder time reaching side platform when recovering.
    Cons: Worse missiles game, Utilt doesn't reach side platforms.

    FD pros: Wide, low stage. We can go deep to avoid needles. Easiest stage to punish Sheik when they recover on to stage. No platforms, so Sheik has a harder time approaching.
    Cons: Limited mobility. No platforms to reach for with upB or missile cancel. Sheik has an easier time keeping us airborne.

    FoD pros: High ceiling (good for us in NTSC), low stage with a great wall so we can go even deeper when recovering. Top platform cancels our upB. Side platforms aids missiles and can sometimes help us give easy damage (i.e. double hit Dsmash, and Utilt into whatever). Easy to punish Sheik's upB on stage when side platforms are low/gone.
    Cons: Narrow stages makes games more dependant on edge guarding, and I think Sheik has an better edge guard than Samus. No room to run away and missile.

    BF pros: Can't think of anything special.
    Cons: Hardest stage to recover to. Platforms not as good for missiles.

    YS pros: Platforms has perfect height for missile cancels. Easy to grapple wall. upB cancels on top platform. We can bomb jump on Fly Guys.
    Cons: Fly Guys can also block our projectiles. Small blastbox means we're KO'd earlier. Narrow stage (see FoD). Sheik has an easier time reaching side platforms when recovering.
    Barbie likes this.
  22. SUNG475

    SUNG475 Smash Ace

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    I play the MU pretty much grounded spaced u tilts (it has to hit her/her shield else you're gunna get baired) and spaced f tilts. I try to use more f tilts but if she's coming from above I like u tilts. I hear nair is insanely good in that mu but I don't think it's that good because I feel like it's committing a lot (I still do it sometimes though). I just space f tilts (mostly angled down/up/I don't use the straight f tilt much cause if they wavedash oos/wd in general they'll just go under), never jab (it'll miss most of the time and the other times you're gunna get rested/or cc counter attacked), barely missile (especially near the corner), charge blaster shot whenever possible, and go for time out. Also if they go for a sh bair on your shield into fade away and land (no dj) I think (haven't super tested) that you can smash shield DI towards into full wd oos angled down f tilt (seems to work whenever I try it). Just from experience since DendyPretendy is the one I play the most.

    Tryin to main samus, haven't been playin tourney recently so no vids (I played her mostly on stream yesterday v wes/mikehaze/dendy but it wasn't recorded sadly) :/ couple of things I want to ask

    1. How do you use jabs? I rarely use them cause imo jabs are overrated and just gives the opponent chances to hit you. For example you can smash shield DI in and punish (marths can just normal shield DI in into fair oos for the most part), or example in samus ditto, you can jump hold down immediately/wd oos hold down immediately after first jab hits your shield into asdi down d smash before her jab animation ends (you can't just let go and hold down cause for some reason you'll still spotdodge even when you've completely let go of L/R)

    2. Do yall have any edgeguard setups (against any char) that you know works pretty much all the time? I saw Darrell b throw a falco offstage by the edge around 100%+ into immediate soft missile and it hit b/c falco dj but if he didn't dj he'd be dead anyway (haven't tested, but this is the kind of thing I'm lookin for)

    3. Does anyone have an extra v1.0 I can buy and goin to MLG? Even in the current version, I don't think people are abusing up b enough. Fox can't drill into shine on samus shield just up b after the drill. I think the current ruleset says they must play on standard v if someone asks for it. But I'd just pop it in secret >:]
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  23. Barbie

    Barbie Samus

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    Ok well I read all of that and honestly I just wanted to be a condescending **** again... so ill be short sweet and to the point, with maybe @JerkPhil doing a follow up?
    1. Space jabs on sheild and cancel them with jab cancels, (refer to previous guide already created, just look for it on the main page and scroll down)
    2. No, there are pretty much no guaranteed edge guards, don't think of the game as so static as for what you have to do in a single situation, its not a regular fighting game and most combos are not set. Low angled ftilt, up tilt, and low angeled forward smash are good edgeguarding options on stage, off stage, pretty much nair, bair, or whatever suits your fancy.
    3. No one has extra 1.0s... everyone wants a 1.0 you have to look hard and never give it up
    SUNG475 likes this.
  24. JerkPhil

    JerkPhil Smash Journeyman

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    1. Jab is Samus' fastest move, and it often combos into Ftilt. I'm not a big user of jab cancels yet, but watch HugS matches to see how it's useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXRCZu6BDdc
    The jabs are not as fast as multishines, but they've got a nice range. Your opponent doesn't have that much of a big window to escape with an aerial or so.
    2. Certain characters should never be able to make it back on stage against Samus. As KLit mentioned are our best moves down angled Fsmash/Ftilt and Utilt. One should not forget the bomb. Run off with bomb and then go back. The bomb with fall down just outside the ledge, with us staying on stage ready with an Utilt or edgehog.
    Shoot homing/smash missiles to narrow their recovery windows.
    Nair and Bair are also great, as KLit mentioned. Nair's hitbox is big and stays out for a while, and Bair hits further with a greater knockback.
    I like to do lazyboy (wavedash backwards to ledge, but not grabbing it) Nairs. This often catch Sheiks and Marths by surprise.
    3. I play the PAL version. KLit knows better than me.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
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  25. 343

    343 Smash Cadet

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    ugh gg not recorded (no hugs recordings either :( )

    glad I stayed up until 7am watching then :p
    SUNG475 likes this.
  26. Barbie

    Barbie Samus

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    ^ Dedication lol
  27. 343

    343 Smash Cadet

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    Hmm, I have a pretty specific question: if I expect a Falco's going to ledgehop double laser, what should I do to punish? Sometimes when the first laser is too high, I can sneak in a ftilt or something... and sometimes I can get a missile in before he jumps (but he can probably react to that and just wait the missile out?)

    And I guess... if I think I'll just get hit by the lasers, what distance should I stand away from the ledge? Probably I want to be outside of grab range and within ftilt range when the falco lands?
  28. SUNG475

    SUNG475 Smash Ace

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    I like up b after the first laser if I'm close enough (falco is invuln until after the first laser is out if he does it correctly)
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  29. Barbie

    Barbie Samus

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    I like shooting a mini charge shot, so it basically stops the second laser and the falco is kinda like... wtf, where I can get a f tilt in, or I just powershield the first and let the second hit, but yes definitly stay out of grab range, another option is to let both hit and just up b OoS while being out of grab range
  30. JerkPhil

    JerkPhil Smash Journeyman

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    I've tested different options with the best Falco in my region. We figured it's best to Nair OoS after the first laser. It's not too hard either :)
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  31. Corigames

    Corigames Smash Hero

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    Added in your stuff Kilt (also some tidbits of my own and some formatting). Thanks!
  32. 343

    343 Smash Cadet

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    Super-broad edgeguarding question: against what characters is it a good idea to:
    (1) take the ledge
    (2) try to edgeguard with fsmash/utilt/ftilt/dsmash?/maybe nair/bair
    (3) run away and charge or missile or whatever
    ?

    Seems like:
    - vs Fox/Falco, (2) is usually good unless you read that they're trying to get ledge
    - vs Sheik (1) is good
    - vs Falcon/Ganon (2) usually unless they're low (?)

    But I'm not sure about...
    - vs Marth: I can never figure out whether to try to take ledge and punish with aerial off the edge / ledge getup dsmash, or to try for a fsmash/utilt/HugS-style dsmash
    - vs Puff/Peach: should I just go charge, or try to catch them out of their recoveries?
    - vs ICs: What can I do to beat a Squall Hammer?

    Also, what about vs lower tiers--Mario bros, Pika, and Link in particular?
    Finally, who might be vulnerable to laying bombs at the edge?
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  33. ManoxMano

    ManoxMano Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    232
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Taking ledge is good idea against all characters when they recover low. if they end up back on the stage abuse their vunerability by ledgehop nair, or a bombland mindgame

    Fox and Falco is tough bc there's so many options to cover, so yeah [2] is the best option usually - try to wait at the point where low ftilt will catch a spacy trying to side-b sweetspot
    Falcon and Ganon is deceptive b/c of how steerable their Up-B is. If they recover at ledge height or below I do [1]>follwoup, otherwise i stay near the middle of the center and side of stage, see how much they steer and nair, down angled fsmash
    Marth is ***. in recent EXTENDURR posts there's some info about that, check it there
    Puff/Peach - unless they're low, yes. However, be in a position so you can charge cancel, jump up and nair. Don't give up stage control!
    IC's Just fsmash, nair, ftilt. Charge shot is you're baller
    Idk about low tiers...but for Pika I'd say grab ledge for invincibility

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