A List of what Greninja can Dodge when Ducking [READ UPDATE. Hurtbox Size Was Increased in 1.0.4]

[KERO]

Recently, I discovered the beauty that is Greninja’s crawl and duck. Greninja is a really unique character in that he’s actually about the same size as Lucina, but he contorts his body in such a way to be more akin to smaller characters like MK or Olimar. Nowhere is this more evident than in his ducking and backwards crawling animation. I decided to test what exactly his crawl/ducking can avoid, and the results were rather surprising.

Now, a couple things to note, for most characters I tested for three things: normal ducking, crawling, and Dtilt. However, when I got to Mega Man (near the end), I suddenly discovered that Greninja’s backward crawl actually puts him LOWER than his duck. This means that the list is slightly incomplete, and I intend to go back to it next week and test the backwards crawling on some of the projectiles that seem to just barely knick Greninja. I also inconsistently tested whether Dtilt canceled out projectiles that couldn’t be dodged, which is another thing I’ll go back to. Anyway, a good rule of thumb to go by is this. From Greninja’s lowest to highest is such: Backward crawl>Duck>Dtilt>Forward crawl

In the list itself, a yes by itself confirms Greninja can safely duck, crawl, and Dtilt under the projectile(for non-projectile moves, the crawl and Dtilt are assumed as I cannot actually test that thoroughly for non-projectile moves). If there are exceptions, they will be listed. No confirms that Greninja cannot at all safely even duck (and in most cases, cannot safely crawl backward).

MASSIVE EDIT; PLEASE READ THIS:

Much of this information is outdated. My original tests involved using the 1.0.0 patch on the 3DS. Since then, as most of you know, it seems that Greninja's hurtbox was adjusted and made larger. Here is a video demonstrating this courtesy of bc1910 (for those that haven't yet seen it already):

Essentially, a good amount of this data is simply incorrect. I apologize for catching on so late in addition to going into hiding randomly, but it seems the word had already spread around well enough. I'll leave the original data here for the sake of posterity and perhaps future comparisons should our hurtbox be changed again, but please note that unless "CONFIRMED" is by a character's name, it means that they have not been fully tested in the latest patch.

Without further ado, here are the results of my tests.

Mario

Fireball-under the arc only.

Fast Fireball-no

Fire Orb-yes, but you will get hit while crawling forward/using Dtilt at the end of the arc.

FLUDD(all variations)-no

Usmash-yes

Luigi

Fireball-no

Bouncing Fireball-no

Iceball-yes

Peach

Vegetable-yes until the last 5th or so of the arc (assuming she throws it straight)

Floaty Vegetable-yes. Trying to Dtilt grabs the vegetable.

Heavy Vegetable-only right in front of Peach

Grumpy Toad-no

Bowser

Fireball-only right next to Bowser or if used when he is falling.

Rosalina and Luma

Luma Shot(all variations)-no

Starbit(all variations)-no

Jab-yes except for final hit.

Bowser Jr.

Clown Cannon-no but can be Dtilted (or Ftilted) to cancel it out.

Piercing Cannon-no

Mr. Game & Watch

Short Order Chef-yes until about 4/5 of the way to the arc’s end.

XXL Chef-only under the arc

Chef-only under the arc

Diddy Kong

Peanut Pop Gun-only if it’s not shot straight.

Fsmash-at low percents, you can avoid the second hit by holding down.

Jumbo Peanut-only if it’s not shot straight.

Link

Arrows(all variations)-only when straight (small amount of leniency on the rising and falling portions of the arc)

Ripping Boomerang-yes, but you cannot Dtilt or crawl forward.

Bomb(all variations)-see Peach’s Turnip.

Boomerang-no

Gale Boomerang-no

Zelda

Din’s Fire (all variations)-no

Phantom (all variations)-no

Utilt-yes

Sheik

Needles (all variations)-you can crawl backwards to avoid a few of them (useful for uncharged barrages), but various parts of the backward crawl animation will put you just in range of the needles.

Toon Link

Arrows(all variations)-yes except at point blank range and where it begins to arc downward.

Bomb(all variations)-no

Boomerang(all variations)-no

Samus

Super Missle(all variations)-yes

Missle(all variations)-no

Uncharged Shot(all variations)-yes

Somewhatcharged shot(all variations)-no

Charged Shot(all variations)-no

Ftilt-yes

Jab-yes

Zero Suit Samus

Paralyzer(both charged and uncharged)-yes

Blast Shot-yes

(Could not get CPU to do third neutral special on ground)

Jab-yes

Pit

Palutena Bow-yes

Guiding Bow-yes

Piercing Bow-only at point blank range.

Palutena

Explosive Flame-no

Celestial Fireworks-no

Auto-reticle-no

Robin

Thunder(all charges)-yes

Arcfire-only in the blindspot

Speed Thunder(all charges)-yes

Arcfire+-only in the larger blindspot

Thunder+(Thunder and Thoron)-yes. Cannot crawl forward, backward, crouch, or Dtilt under Elthunder or Arcthunder, however

Kirby

Ice Breath-no

King Dedede

Gordo(normal and variation 2)-you can get fairly close to the Gordo.

Topspin Gordo-yes

Fox

Blaster-yes(certain parts of forward crawl animation will be hit, however) As of 1.0.4, crawling backward allows you to avoid lasers usually, but you can still be hit.

Impact Blaster-yes

Jab-yes (as long as you aren't touching his body)

Charge Blaster-no

Falco

Blaster-yes(certain parts of forward crawl animation and Dtilt will be hit, however) As of 1.0.4, crawling backward allows you to avoid lasers usually, but you can still be hit.

Reflector-yes

Usmash-yes

Ftilt-yes

Burst Blaster-yes(most parts of Dtilt and forward crawl will be hit, however)

Accel-reflector-yes

Explosive Blaster-no

Void Reflector-no

Pikachu

Thundershock-no

Charizard

Fireball Cannon-no

Lucario

Aura Sphere(all variations)-no

Force Palm(all variations)-no

Greninja

Water Shuriken-no

Shifting Shuriken-no

Stagnant Shuriken-unable to test.

Duck Hunt

Clay Pigeon-yes except right next to the dog and right at the end as it lands. Shots also miss unless you are crawling forward or Dtilting.

Wild Gunman-yes except the two shortest.

Mega Gunman-yes except the shortest.

Clay Break-yes unless you’re under the first shot if it’s shot as fast as possible. As the arc ends, the last shot will also hit.

Quick Draw Aces-Same as Wild Gunman

Rising Clay-only as it begins rising (if thrown downward, effectively, no)

R.O.B.

Uncharged laser (all variations)-yes

Charged laser(all variations)-yes(cannot crawl forward or Dtilt)

Laser(all variations)-cannot be within the firing hitbox(right next to R.O.B.).

Gyro(all variations)-no

Ness

PK Fire Burst-no

PK Flash-no

PK Fire-no

PK Bonfire-no

Villager

Pushy Lloid-no

Lloid-no(can be Dtilted safely)

Olimar

Pikmin Strike-all but whites and Purples have a blindspot within Fsmash range.

Pikmin Toss-only yellows can be avoided.

Sticky Pikmin Toss-no

Fsmash-unable to test well, but it seems no.

Wii Fit Trainer

Sun Salutation(uncharged)-yes

Sun Salutation(charged)-no

Condensed Salutation(uncharged)-no

Condensed Salutation(charged)-yes

Sweeping Salutation(charged)-no

Fsmash-yes

Note: was unable to test uncharged Sweeping Salutation and in-between charged salutations.

Dr. Mario

Megavitamin-Under the arc. Much more leniency than Mario’s Fireball.

Fast Capsule-no

Mega Capsule-yes(you can comfortably crawl under it until the very end of its small arc. Dtilt make get you hit by it)

Usmash-yes

Dark Pit

Silver Bow-yes

Guiding Bow-yes

Piercing Bow-only at point blank range.

If someone could test Usmash and Impact Orbitars, that would be great.

Pac-Man

Bonus Fruit:

Cherry-under the arc(can be stopped by Dtilt)

Strawberry-no(can be stopped by Dtilt)

Orange-no(can be stopped by Dtilt)

Apple-under the arc except the last bounce as it starts slowing down too much(can be stopped by Dtilt).

Melon-no(can be stopped by Dtilt)

Ship-no. After it spins, at the very beginning, no, but otherwise, yes. Dtilt does not stop it, but it takes away the ship’s hitbox

Key-no. Dtilt does not stop is, but it takes away the key’s hitbox(very hard to hit)

Note: any fruit canceled by Dtilt can be caught as it bounces up.

Freaky Fruit:

Cherry-Under the bouncing arc.

Strawberry-unable to test.

Orange-no

Apple-no

Melon-under the giant arc.

Ship-no but hitbox can still be taken away by Dtilt

All fruits that can be canceled by Dtilt in Bonus Fruit can still be canceled, but they disappear immediately

Lazy Fruit:

Cherry-You can crawl under the arc and Dtilt, but you will be hit as it comes down. Retains all other properties.

Strawberry-yes, retains all other properties.

Orange-no, retains all other properties

Apple-yes except at point blank range, retains all other properties.

Melon-yes except at point blank range, retains all other properties

Ship-no, retains all other properties

Key-no, retains all other properties

Like with Lazy Fruit, fruits that can have their movement canceled by Dtilt disappear.

On-Fire Hydrant-no

Mega Man

Metal Blade-no(can be Dtilted)

Crash Bomber-yes, but only while crawling backwards.

Jab-yes, but only while crawling backwards and in the latter ¾ of its range.

Fsmash-no.

Leaf Shield-no, but can be Dtilted.

Shadow Blade-no, but can be Dtilted.

Skull Barrier-no, but can be Dtilted.

Bair-yes(need to test this more)

Plant Barrier-no, but can be Dtilted

Ice Slasher-yes, but only while crawling backwards.

Danger Wrap-could not test

Mii Swordfighter

Shuriken of Light-no but can be Dtilted

Chakram-no but can be Dtilted

Mii Gunner

Grenade Launch-Anywhere from right in front of the gunner to the end of the arc, yes.

Gunner Missile-yes, but only if you are backwards crawling (Tallest possible Mii only). Can be Dtilted

Stealth Burst-no

Laser Blaze-yes(you are hit during Dtilt or crawling forward against tallest Mii. Must crawl backward in any other case. Becomes no at a smaller than middle sized Mii).

Charge Blast-no(sometimes you can crawl backwards under a completely uncharged shot from the tallest possible Mii. Uncharged shot can be canceled by Dtilt).

Again, keep in mind, that any projectile that is as close to the ground as or closer than Fox lasers will now hit Greninja. Anything higher than Fox lasers will not hit Greninja. As for what projectiles fall into those two categories, I am not sure, but if anyone wishes to do in-depth testing (I am currently busy), I would be happy to add any results to the OP. I do not believe I will conduct anymore in-depth testing until we receive confirmation that patches for the game are finished. I have a strong feeling that Greninja's hurtbox may end up touched again at some point given just how ridiculous the discrepancy is.

 

[Sosuke]

i think it would be easier to make a list of what Greninja DOES get hit by when crouched, I swear he avoids practically everything like that

 

[Coffee™]

Bumping this, so it doesn't fall into oblivion. I feel like crouching is going to be really useful later on after we become more experienced with the game. Would be nice to have the info concerning it all in one place.

 

[Lavani]

It's worth noting that Greninja can crouch under certain grabs.

I forget which characters I was noticing this against, but I was able to dtilt some characters' shields without any fear of being grabbed afterward and could get a second dtilt>followup.

 

[David Viran]

Greninja can only duck under zss's paralyzer and jab if he is crawling inside of her or any of her moves for that matter.

 

[Spirst]

Greninja can only duck under zss's paralyzer and jab if he is crawling inside of her or any of her moves for that matter.

In the case with the grab, I actually found this to be the case with most every character (haven't looked at all but I tried different sizes like Mario, Bowser, ZSS, Rosalina, Kirby). Just crawl inside their hurtbox and their grabs will seemingly whiff. It's not all the time though since if you're not positioned perfectly, they will grab you.

 

[bc1910]

I THINK Greninja's crouch was nerfed back in the 1.0.4 patch, actually. He can't crouch under Falco's lasers any more. Although that could be the lasers getting bigger hitboxes? I wasn't aware of that being in the patch. I know they were changed to fire faster though... I hope it's just a change to the lasers. He seems to avoid all the other moves on the list still, including stuff like ZSS's jab.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

OP should check if Greninja can low-profile under any characters dash attacks (Kirby can duck Captain Falcon's dash attack, for instance)

 

[KERO]

I'll probably go through every character's attack pretty soon, once Fsmash percents are finished in the kill percent thread. A lot of these were tested on the 3DS version, so I'll likely re-test them all as well to get a much more accurate list.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

It takes very precise timing, but one can down tilt to avoide Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot

 

[bc1910]

I was right. Having tested on 1.0.0, Greninja's hurtbox and thus crouch was englarged.

A lot of the stuff in the OP is outdated. He can no longer crouch under Fox's lasers, Falco's lasers, Samus' uncharged charge shots or ROB's fully charged laser. Most annoying of all, he can't duck under ZSS paralyzer or Sheik needles, and he could in 1.0.0.

I expect this nerf came with 1.0.4 and was more to do with the fact that Greninja used to get out of several jab combos for free, because of his fast fall speed and low profile. He used to get out of Ike and Shulk jab chains every time by shielding before they finished. I have tested attacks against his standing profile (which was the shortest in the game, even lower than Pikachu) and his entire hurtbox got bigger.

To see how stupid this nerf really looks, go into training, pick Greninja and pick CPU Falco. Crouch and have Falco fire a laser - sort of looks normal, right? As if the laser is hitting Greninja's ears? Well, slow the game down to 1/4 speed and set the camera to zoom, then fire another laser. The laser makes contact with the air above Greninja's head and he takes damage.

We still have an above average crouch (it's ever-so-slightly lower than Sonic's) and can duck under some useful things like Link's arrows, Samus' missiles and the Pits' arrows.

I doubt they will, but I would love for them to reverse this nerf at some point. It's not that big a deal since powershielding is typically just as good but it's another case of 1.0.4 gutting Greninja for no reason. And since we can crawl, being able to crouch Sheik needles in particular would be really, really good.

 

[FullMoon]

Interesting. I didn't think they would change a character's hurtbox like that.

We're still one of the shortest characters in the game, crouching or not, so it's a pretty minor thing.

 

[bc1910]

In terms of the actual height difference this is not minor. We are now "below average" height, not one of the shortest. Our crawl in particular is now above average height (I don't know exactly where we rank but of the 14 characters who crawl, at least 7 of them crawl lower than us).

In real terms it's pretty minor though, because we've been playing this way for months and haven't really noticed it. Frankly, I don't think crouching and crawling are that useful unless you can go under needles and/or make ZSS's life hell. Crawling is good for microspacing but your height doesn't affect that.

Although we used to crouch nearly as low as Pikachu which would have been great against ZSS and Sheik.

 

[KERO]

Basically, yeah, a lot of this is outdated. I was working on a new list, but then some things threw me off, etc., I'm going to go ahead and try to work on that some more very soon since I discovered some interesting stuff (we can completely crouch under Mario Usmash from the front for instance), but for now I think I'm gonna go ahead and put a massive disclaimer in the OP.

 

[bc1910]

Video on Greninja's nerfed hurtbox and crouch.

 

[KERO]

Whoo, I missed like, all of this after I went into hiding (which explains why I had no idea about the hurtbox size increase until a few days ago). In any case, wow. Looking at this old list... being able to duck under Fox lasers would be really useful to have these days... (would force him to approach). If anyone would like to take over research on this (since a new thread hasn't been made yet), feel free to, and I'll be happy to update the OP, but I'm gonna personally wait around a bit longer in hope that maaaaaaaaybe they make that hurtbox a bit less ridiculous?