In-Depth Falco Frame Data

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

All data (not in red) was collected by myself and done multiple times to test for accuracy. The data in red are things copied from Dant's frame database for things I was too lazy to do. That stuff in red was generated from PSA itself, so I expect it to be highly accurate (even though I have some doubts on things).

The data is complete for the most part. I would go test Dant's stuff, but I have gotten a bit lazy at finishing this. There are other things I can go test out, but I expect it would be less useful. I guess as reference here is the stuff I would like to get back to someday.

-Redesign the presentation of the information.
-Find further things to test inputs on.
-Find out about the "special hitbox" mentioned in the PSA data.
-Do frame data on certain maneuvers such as any advantage on double ledge hop lasers, airdodge onto stage from the ledge, ledge drop invincibility, etc.

[collapse=Intro/Example]
Frame zero is frame of input. Frame one is the next frame and start of the move. All frames are counted after the zero frame of input. IASA this frame # is the last frame in the move before any other action will take place the following frame thus canceling the animation. The following frame after a number is the next thing that any action can take place. Autocancel, if an aerial lands during the autocancel frames, the attack will cancel and will go into hard/soft landing animation.

Here is a quick example of how some of this stuff works. Assume you make input for a jab on some frame and it will hit your opponent, and you will link into the 2nd jab as quickly as possible. We will call this the zero frame and where we start counting from the time the first jab was made.
Frames
0 - Input for jab1 made
1 - Start-up lag
2 - hitbox comes out and hits opponent going into hitlag causing falco's attack to stop briefly and your opponent to enter some hitstun.
3 - hitlag
4 - hitlag
5 - hitlag
6 - hitlag
7 - hitlag (last frame of hitlag since falco's Jab1 has 6 frames hitlag
8 - because of the hitlag falco's attack paused and resumes after the hitlag is over with, so if the opponent was not hit, this would actually be frame 3 of full jab1 animation
9 - I think the hitbox ends here, but not sure
10 - nothing interesting happens now still waiting
11 - This is the first frame after hitlag in Jab1 where you can press A again to start jab2 to come out.
12 - start-up lag for jab2
13 - start-up lag for jab2
14 - start-up lag for jab2
15 - Hitbox comes out and goes into hitlag if it hits opponent

Hope this helped some.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Ground Attacks]
[collapse=Jab/DashAttack]
Jab – Attack1
IASA: 16
HitsOn: 2-5
Hitlag: 6
(Input made on frame 6-29 to make jab2 start next frame)

Jab2 – Attack12
IASA: 19
HitsOn: 4-???
HitLag: 5
(Frames not counted from start of Jab1. See "inputs" for more info on jab1 -> jab2)

Jab3 – N/A
Duration (IASA?): 36
HitsOn: 9, 14, 19, 24
1st Hitlag: 5
2nd Hitlag: 5
3rd Hitlag: 5
4th Hitlag: 5
(This is the shortest held time. Holding it repeats a hitbox every 5th frame that repeats 5 frames hitlag)
(See if Jab3 hitbox durations lasts more than a frame)

Dash Attack – AttackDash
IASA: 35
HitsOn: 4-17
Hitlag: 8
(Grab input made on frame 1 or 2 will cancel dash attack. Usmash input on frames 2,, 3, or 4 will cancel the U
[/collapse]

[collapse=Tilts]
Ftilt – AttackS3
Duration: 26
HitsOn: 6-8
Hitlag: 8

Utilt – AttackHi3
IASA: 36
HitsOn: 4-9, 12-16
1st Hitlag: 6
2nd Hitlag: 6

Dtilt – AttackLw3
IASA: 27
HitsOn: 7-9
Hitlag: 9
[/collapse]

[collapse=Smashes]
Usmash – AttackHi4
Duration: 44
HitsOn: 8-17
Hitlag(StrongHit): 10
Hitlag((WeakHit): 9
(HitsOn: 6 from charge release)

Dsmash – AttackLw4
Duration: 46
HitsOn: 7-9
Hitlag: 10
(HitsOn: 5 from charge release)
(Lower legs invulnerable frames 3-9)

Fsmash – AttackS4S
Duration: 49
HitsOn: 16-20, 21
Hitlag(StrongHit): 5
Hitlag(WeakHit): 2
(HitsOn: 4 from release)
(Strong hit is from 16-20, weak hit is a single frame 21)
[/collapse]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Aerials]
Nair – AttackAirN
Duration: 49
HitsOn: 3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24
1st Hitlag: 6
2nd Hitlag: 6
3rd Hitlag: 5
4th Hitlag: 6
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancel: 1-2, 43-49
(Confirm PSA data on hitbox duration)

Bair – AttackAirB
IASA 37
HitsOn:4-7, 8-19
Hitlag(StrongestHit): 10
Hitlag(WeakestHit): 7
Landing Lag: 15
Autocancel : 1-3, 23->
(Confirm PSA data on hitbox duration)

Fair – AttackAirF
Duration: 59
HitsOn: 6-33, 34-35
1st Hitlag: 4
2nd Hitlag: 4
3rd Hitlag: 4
4th Hitlag: 4
5th Hitlag: 12
Landing Lag: 33
Autocancel: 1-5, 49-59
(PSA says special hitbox, look into that)

Uair – AttackAirHi
IASA: 35
HitsOn: 10-14
Hitlag(StrongHit): 9
Hitlag(WeakHit): ???
Landing Lag: 15
Autocancel: 1-6, 26->
(Find hitbox duration of strong/weak hits and hitlag of weakhit)

Dair – AttackAirLw
Duration: 49
HitsOn: 5-7, 8-21
Hitlag(StrongestHit): 10
Hitlag(WeakestHit): 8
Landing Lag: 12
Autocancel: 1-4, 27->
[/collapse]

[collapse=Specials]
Ground Laser
Duration: 56
HitsOn: 12

Aerial Laser
Duration: 41
HitsOn: 10
Autocancel: 1-41

Firebird
HitsOn: 20-???,

Shine
Duration: 51
HitsOn: 4-13
Reflects: 1-51
(No hitlag)
(No landing lag)

Aerial Phantasm
Duration: 50 frames
HitsOn: 23, 24, 25
(Press B at frame 22, 23, 24 to cancel to short, mid, mid-long)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCAjswCuLds
[/collapse]

[collapse=Grab/Throws]
Grab - Catch
Duration: 29
GrabsOn: 6-7
Dash Grab - CatchDash
Duration: 39
GrabsOn: 11-12
Pivot Grab - CatchTurn
Duration: 35
GrabsOn: 9-10
Pummel - CatchAttack
IASA: 20
HitsOn: 5
Hitlag: 5

Dthrow - ThrowLw
Duration: 47
Fthrow - ThrowF
Duration: 38
HitsOn:10
Hitlag: 6
SentFlying: 17
Uthrow - ThrowHi
Duration: 38
Bthrow - ThrowB
Duration: 38
[/collapse]

[collapse=Misc.]
-Fully crouched on frame 7. Can interrupt at anytime.
-19 frames UpB special lag (hard): 15 (soft)
-20 frames SideB special lag(hard) special lag; 15 (soft)
-1 frame for the game to register a dash
-Takes one frame to turn around.
-Soft landing 2 frames. Hard landing 4 frames.
-Fast fall can happen as soon as frame 28 from a short hop (includes 7 frames animation for jumping)
-6 frames to jump. Airborn on frame 7.
-Release the jump button between frame 1-6 to short hop. Hold longer to fullhop.
-SH lasts 45 frames (includes 6 frames to start jump and 2 frame landing lag at the end)
-You have frames 1 and 2 on the dash attack to input pivot + grab on the same frame o.0 for bpg
-It takes 7 frames for a laser to completely go past a single point.
-After the input for a dash, you have the next 6 frames to push backwards to cancel the dash into a pivot from which you have just done a true pivot.


Froll - EscapeF
Duration: 31
Invincible: 4-19
Broll - EscapeB
Duration: 31
Invincible: 4-19
Spotdodge - EscapeN
Duration: 22
Invincible: 2-20
Airdodge - EscapeAir
Duration: 49
Invincible: 4-31
Wall Jump
Duration: 5
Airborn: 6
(Actions can happen on frame 6)

[collapse=Ledge]
Ledge Stand <100% - CliffClimbQuick
Duration: 34
Invincible: 2-30
(Weird IASA timing in PSA, check it out)
Ledge Attack <100% - CliffAttackQuick
Duration: 54
Invincible: 2-23
Hits on: 25-32
Hitlag: 8
Ledge Roll <100% - CliffEscapeQuick
Duration: 49
Invincible: 2-36
Ledge Jump <100% - CliffJumpQuick
Duration: 15
Invincible: 2-15
Airborn: 16
(Actions can come out on frame 16)

Ledge Stand >100% - CliffClimbSlow
Duration: 59
Invincible: 2-55
Ledge Attack >100% - CliffAttackSlow
Duration: 69
Invincible: 2-58
Hits On: 56-58
Hitlag: 9
Ledge Roll >100% - CliffEscapseSlow
Duration: 79
Invincible: 2-63
Ledge Jump >100% - CliffJumpSlow
Duration: 20
Invincible: 2-20
Airborn: 21
(Actions can come out on frame 21)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Down]
Face Up Stand - DownStandU
Duration: 29
Invincible: 2-22
Face Up Attack - DownAttackU
Duration: 50
Invincible: 2-26
HitsOn: 17-19, 24-26
Hitlag: 10
(Hits forward first then behind)
Face Up Froll - DownForwardU
Duration: 35
Invincible: 2-19
Face Up Broll - DownBackU
Duration: 35
Invincible: 2-20

Face Down Stand - DownStandD
Duration: 29
Invincible: 2-22
Face Down Attack - DownAttackD
Duration: 49
Invincible: 2-26
HitsOn: 19-20, 25-26
Hitlag:
(hits behind first before hitting forward)
Face Down Froll - DownForwardD
Duration: 35
Invincible: 2-19
Face Down Broll - DownBackD
Duration: 35
Invincible: 2-24
[/collapse]

[collapse=Techs]
Tech Stand - Passive
Duration: 26
Invincible: 2-20
Tech Froll - PassiveStandF
Duration: 40
Invincible: 2-20
Tech Broll - PassiveStandB
Duration: 40
Invincible: 2-20
Tech Ceiling - PassiveCeil
Duration: 26
Invincible: 2-20
Tech Jump - PassiveWallJump
Duration(IASA?): 7 ???
Invincible: ???
Tech Wall - PassiveWall
Duration(IASA?): 6 ???
Invincible: 2-20
[/collapse]

[collapse=Tripping]
Trip Banana - Slip
Duraiton: 29
Invincible: 2-6

Trip Dash - SlipDash
Duration: 45
Invincible: 2-8

Trip Turn - SlipTurn
Duration: 35
Invincible: 2-7

Trip Stand - SlipStand
Duration: 21
Invincible: 2-17

Trip Attack - SlipAttack
Duration: 49
HitsOn: 19-20, 25-26
Hitlag: ???
Invincible: 1-8

Trip Froll - SlipEscapeF
Duration: 28
Invincible: 2-10

Trip Broll - SlipEscapeB
Duration: 28
Invincible: 2-10
[/collapse]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Inputs]
-After making the input for a dash, you have upto frames 1-5 to make an input for a fsmash to cancel the dash.
This is why it's better to use c-stick down or rotate the control stick down to start a dash attack from standing. The dash attack comes out faster without having to worry about doing a fsmash.
-Dash attack is canceled by a grab input made on frames 1-2; also canceled by an usmash input made on 2-4
-Pressing A after a jab before IASA frame will cause a 2nd jab to come out and go into the 3rd hit if no target was hit. Pressing A on the IASA frame will cause the 2nd jab to come out, but not the 3rd hit if it missed.
-After making the input for Jab1 on frame 0, you can press A again anytime between frames 6-29 to activate the 2nd jab. The soonest it will start is frame 10 from the start of the 1st jab.
-You have the first 6 frames after starting a dash to shove the control stick in the opposite direction causing a pivot. After that you can make any input to cancel the input. This is a true pivot.
[/collapse]

Reference/Credit/Special Thanks:
Dantarion’s Autoframe Database
3GOD’s original contribution
Teluoberg (For helping understand some stuff)

 

[M@v]

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[-DR3W-]

Good **** Xeylode.

 

[MARLX]

Wow this thread is great! All up to date information and less questions to be asked. (Someone sticky this thread).

 

[teluoborg]

Niiiiiiice.

Special requests coming later.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Thanks. Hopefully someone might find it useful somewhere.

I keep remembering new things to look into. I had completely forgotten how many different ways to tech there were.

Recently got the most of the jab stuff done. Not sure what more to do with hit honestly in that department except look at input stuff for 2nd jab. Random tidbit. If you jab twice too quickly without hitting anything, you might remember that falco seems to go into his 3rd jab which can be annoying. Two ways to fix that. Either delay when you press 2nd jab, or press A to start the 2nd jab, then hold for a bit. It seems to stop the 3rd jab from coming out if you hold A. However, if you hit something, then holding A will cause your 3rd jab to come out anyway I think everyone knows most of this, but I never knew about the holding A to prevent the 3rd jab from coming out if you hit nothing.

Either way, added some more stuff across the board. Still tons more to do. I still have no idea how to efficiently test/confirm hitbox duration.

 

[teluoborg]

Use timed spotdodge ?
Like make the invincibility of the dodge end 1 frame after the hitbox is out, then 2 frames then 3 etc.

Seems long to put in place but that's the only way I see.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That is what I intend to do if I cannot find something that can be done more quickly.

Spoiler

jab1 stun time
fresh on bowser, first active frame was frame 10
completely decayed on bowser, first active frame was 10

fresh on peach, first active frame was frame 11
completey decayed on peach, first active frame was 10

fresh on marth, first active frame was 11
completely decayed on marth, first active frame was 10

Conclusion: Since falco's jab2 happens on frame 10 at the earliest and many characters likely can act on this turn, jab1 -> jab 2 is not a true combo given no SDI. However, the only way to escape is to abuse invincible frames (or SDI in hitlag)

 

[1PokeMastr]

Finish this, you need when the move finishes. And when the hit box ends.

 

[teluoborg]

So Dair can autocancel 6 frames after the end of the hitbox, neat.

Oh and you can see the hitbox duration in Dantarion's page when it's marked "terminate collision". For example Nair has hitboxes on frame 3-5, 6-9, 14-17 and 21-24.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think I might do that for the last few things. After testing out everything myself thus far, it's not different from that database. I thought at first it might contain errors (he listed all characters, perhaps there might have been a misrecording somehow), but it's been accurate with what I have done. Only everything in that database takes place like a frame later or a frame sooner. I should probably focus on stuff that this thing does not list which is still plenty of things.

 

[teluoborg]

It's in PSA format, so you'll have to figure out the timers and what not. I suggest you read this before trying to figure out the in game frames:
[collapse="Understanding PSA Frames vs. Game Frames"]
Alright, so we all know that in PSA, you can view the frame data for characters. However, the way this works can confuse lots of people. Things such as ZSS's and Squirtle's "0 Frame" Jabs, when we just consider them frame 1. So instead we adopted the system of adding one to what we see in PSA.

However, is this completely correct to just add 1? No.

People that say that ZSS's Jab comes out frame 0 are technically correct. However, the frame 0 is a misconception. It is actually the PSA frame 0. In PSA, the frames is spits out are not actually the frames seen in game. Instead, they are the parts in-between each frame. They are the inputs. So I would rather refer to the number that PSA spits out as "input" so ZSS's Jab would be considered Frame 1, Input 0.

For the rest, refer to this visualization:

This is a representation of a move I made up (the frame data would be so lulzy). Imagine that they grey part is the start-up of the move, the red part the hitbox of the move and the white part the cool-down.

Now in OSA2 the picture would look like the following

---Start---
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x,[/B]
Offensive Collision - Hitbox stuff...
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=8.00x,[/B]
Terminate Collisions
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=10.00x,[/B]
Allow Interrupt
---End---

Now I believe that we can all agree on that the hitbox starts on Frame 3. This follows the +1 rule. As you can see, it also follows the I2. So that is entirely correct. Now, if we were to follow the +1 rule. The hitbox would last until frame 9. But would that mean that frame 9 has the hitbox out or gone? This is where the +1 rule leaves much to be desired. But, if we are to use the inputs, we can see that it is indeed not out on frame 9. This is because we are reading this as the game would read it. It would read that the collisions are terminated on Input 8. Therefore, the following frame has no collisions because they were eliminated during Input 8.

Using the the "Input" instead of the "Frame" system helps us to realize things easier like the FAF. Lets take for example the move above. Is the FAF Frame 10 or Frame 11. Well, based on the Input, which is Input 10, we can see that the following frame, Frame 11 is allowing the interrupt.

TL;DR - When you refer to numbers from PSA/OSA2, start using the input number to figure out the actual frame using this graphic.[/collapse]

It was orignially written for the Smash Lab, but since Dant's just throwing around PSA formatted data, I figure you might as well read it.

Explaining it better than I ever would

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Interesting, I had not thought of it like that. However, while that explanation seems to work for most of the stuff, I have an issue with it working on the animation end.

Look at Nair, I test for duration by the first visual cue of falco's next action after a move. I counted his Nair to be 49 frames, and the 50th frame some other animaton would start like Bair. However, by using what you just posted, Nair PSA data says to end animation at input50. However, input 50 does not happen until the 50th visual frame has passed by. This seems a bit contradictory. It doesn't help that this is the same for everything I have tested. All the animation ends are off by a number. So something isn't working between the PSA stuff and what I am collecting.

Either way, I added in PSA data for the things I was missing. It's all marked in red until I get around to satisfying myself that it is indeed correct. I am positive in the stuff I have been testing because I have been doing much of the testing multiple times to make sure I didn't miss count or some other mistake. The whole check and recheck, then recheck again.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Why not use the hack that allows you to use the d-pad to advance the move frame by frame and see when it ends by making another input ? And use the bubble PSA to determine the length the hit box is out.

Or ask the Ike boards for help.