ICs neutral game?

[Amadeus]

what should i be doing in neutral? desyncs? or should i be looking for openings for wavesmashes?

 

[Binx]

The simple answer is yes

The more complex answer is that you need to think about what they have to threaten you what you have to threaten them.

Some matchups like Bowser you can just play a guessing game where you wavedash jab->smash or wavedash grab and you only have to be right like 25% of the time to break even and if you are right more you just win the match.

In other match ups you need to really pick your spots like vs Fox because if you commit to anything he can seperate and kill you easily.

 

[derdian]

Wavedash forward into full hop or short hop up air into falling bair/fair is super safe works wonders against most characters aside from marth who will outspace all of your moves. For marth you can just camp him, wait in shield and then wavedash out of shield to punish him when he messes up/uses a laggy move. Dash attack is another safe move against certain characters who approach you from the air like falcon and fox, it beats out most of their moves just don't throw it out too much.

Desynchs and wavesmashes/jabs are 50/50 depending on who you are playing against, you will either get punished hard or it will work out sometimes. The best desynch ive found is dash dance into blizzard which is what I catch people with the most. The others are pretty lack luster.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Wavedash forward into full hop or short hop up air into falling bair/fair is super safe works wonders against most characters aside from marth who will outspace all of your moves. For marth you can just camp him, wait in shield and then wavedash out of shield to punish him when he messes up/uses a laggy move. Dash attack is another safe move against certain characters who approach you from the air like falcon and fox, it beats out most of their moves just don't throw it out too much.

Desynchs and wavesmashes/jabs are 50/50 depending on who you are playing against, you will either get punished hard or it will work out sometimes. The best desynch ive found is dash dance into blizzard which is what I catch people with the most. The others are pretty lack luster.

This is almost entirely wrong. Wavedashing forward in itself is often unsafe due to landing lag from the air-dodge. Full jump uair leaves you extremely vulnerable from the side and from below in most relevant match-ups, while short hop uair leaves you extremely vulnerable horizontally.

Camping Marth is fine, but sitting in shield and waiting for him to screw up is a perfect manifestation of one of the absolute worst habits of the common ones of mid- and low-level ICs players: relying on the opponent to make unforced errors. That's not to say that shielding is bad; it's frequently quite good, but not because people may do stupid things in response to it. If the opponent is prone to screw up, then sure, but don't expect that sort of thing to work often against very good opponents.

Dash attack is very unsafe in just about every match-up. It can beat plenty of things, and it is often a good option, but it's quite vulnerable near the end of the animation.

The first sentence of the last paragraph is a huge oversimplification of a lot of things. The utility of wavedash -> jab/smash/etc and the utility of desynchs vary heavily by match-up, player, and the desynchs in question. I'll agree that DD -> blizzard is the best of the common desynchs, but plenty others still have legitimate applications.

 

[derdian]

This is almost entirely wrong. Wavedashing forward in itself is often unsafe due to landing lag from the air-dodge. Full jump uair leaves you extremely vulnerable from the side and from below in most relevant match-ups, while short hop uair leaves you extremely vulnerable horizontally.

Camping Marth is fine, but sitting in shield and waiting for him to screw up is a perfect manifestation of one of the absolute worst habits of the common ones of mid- and low-level ICs players: relying on the opponent to make unforced errors. That's not to say that shielding is bad; it's frequently quite good, but not because people may do stupid things in response to it. If the opponent is prone to screw up, then sure, but don't expect that sort of thing to work often against very good opponents.

Dash attack is very unsafe in just about every match-up. It can beat plenty of things, and it is often a good option, but it's quite vulnerable near the end of the animation.

The first sentence of the last paragraph is a huge oversimplification of a lot of things. The utility of wavedash -> jab/smash/etc and the utility of desynchs vary heavily by match-up, player, and the desynchs in question. I'll agree that DD -> blizzard is the best of the common desynchs, but plenty others still have legitimate applications.

Now that I re-read my post I can see it's pretty bad. I wasn't really thinking about the neutral game in general, just specific situations. Neutral should pretty much be straight defense (lots of dash dancing,wd forward and back, spacing, etc) looking for openings and punishes. Going in with up airs is good when they are camping platforms which will happen most of the time when someone is playing vs IC's. Just don't be too obvious with your approaches.