Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide

[choknater]

hm i know about bthrow, but i think that was one of my follies against fly in tournament. i went straight for nana instead of pressuring popo, too eager for the nana KO. i should just wait for her to come

i also didnt really go for enough throws really

next time next time

 

[Binx]

if anyone can find the time to do the writeup ill edit it in.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, it's not so much about going for the Nana kill instantly (unless you have it guaranteed obviously) as it is about walling off Popo as best you can from her. He wants to get in and save her, so you can exploit that.

Vice versa, you have to be very good at exerting mental pressure with just Popo if you want to stop them from just steamrolling your Nana. Very aggressive-seeming movements can often get them to throw moves at you instead of her when you're split, so obviously baiting those is how you will keep her alive even when you shouldn't.

 

[Binx]

Did someone rearrange the list with the first post lol, pretty random
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[bËst^]

I got one very good tip for all the IC users.

Ledgehop-Uair has proven itself to be exellent move during edgeguard. Expecially when you got only Popo left and you managed to get your opponent out of stage. Just took the ledge and force your opponent to aim his recovery on stage and simply do a ledgehop Uair to prevent that.

Uair has extremely good priority and perfect set up-opportunities. For example against spacies Uair can break through illusions and firebird/-Fox as well. move got almost no lag, but got decent stun so you are able to get free Bair hit, which usually ends to a KO thanks to very good knock back. Also Uair can be spammed on the ledge if needed. It is fast enough so you can regrab the ledge after you've performed the ledgehop

Just give a try. I Tried that maneuver in B.E.A.S.T (one very big europian tourney) and it worked perfectly.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ledgehop Uair > Bair is quite good against a lot of stuff, and is a very flexible, versatile edgeguard.

 

[Winston]

Yep, it's a chudat classic

Can probably be DIed away from, but who DIs back offstage when recovering (at least the first X times you do it)?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just edgeguard with desyncs usually.

But, yeah, ledgehop uair is one of the best sopo edgeguards.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peef's continuous blizzard tricks are really neat

 

[Pockets Jones]

hey everybody, i was reading about the falcon matchup and reverse dair chaingrab was mentioned, but im not sure what that is vs a regular dair chaingrab... can someone explain it to me?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grab with Popo > Down Throw with Popo > Full Hop forward with Nana > Dair with Nana > Turn around with Popo > Grab with Popo

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

visual of its application:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-od7iUMKLo&feature=player_embedded&t=21s

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

that was a sick match
props to fly

 

[Avalancer]

My friend is a very campy samus who shoots missiles when far, Dsmashes when up close and CCs the WHOLE ****ing match.
I can easily beat him, but it just annoys me I keep getting struck by his Dsmash everytime do a good string of attacks. Any tactics for these samuses?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stop doing attacks that can be CC D-smash'd.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Also be aware that if you full-shield her dsmash, you get a guaranteed WD OoS -> grab. Bad Samuses look for dsmash a lot, and generally won't do anything that really discourages you from shielding anyways, so it shouldn't be tough to deal with.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Also be aware that if you full-shield her dsmash, you get a guaranteed WD OoS -> grab. Bad Samuses look for dsmash a lot, and generally won't do anything that really discourages you from shielding anyways, so it shouldn't be tough to deal with.

If you are feeling fairly confident in your reads, a lot of times you can hit with charged d smashes as well. Many times Samus players dodge after they d smash your shield and see you WD OoS in at them, its good for your single popo game to rack up more damange.

 

[DerfMidWest]

how do I play against zelda?
she is surprisingly difficult :\
and every damn move separates you .-.

~dankeschön ^^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't approach.
Shield everything.
Stage control is more important than punishing.

 

[DerfMidWest]

are there any videos of the matchup that I should be watching?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm not aware of any good ICs vs. Zelda videos. You can find a few, but I don't know if you can find any in which the ICs actually play the match-up well. My general approach to the match-up is to spend most of the time retreating or constructing a projectile wall that's hard for her to get around, with intermittent approaches mixed in here and there.

I think Grim's suggestion of shielding a lot probably has some merit since Zelda doesn't exactly have great shield pressure and since her grab is terrible, but it's really hard to punish Zelda OoS, especially if you're light-shielding, which you probably want to be doing a lot since you don't want Zelda to poke you. The upside is the less time you spend challenging Zelda, the easier it should be to catch her off-guard.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think you really need to tackle Zelda OoS, because your projectiles/Zelda's mistakes will eventually create an opening.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Should i retreating blizzard a lot?
Because the way zelda approaches makes me think that she can't get around it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She can't get around it, no.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ok, so I should focus on controlling the stage, walling her with projectiles, and using blizzard shenanigans to keep her from approahing...
So yea...

What do I do if zelda grabs the center of the stage? Just try to create openings with iceblocks?

 

[Binx]

You can move towards her carefully and use blizzards and iceblocks to push her back.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't use platforms, they give Zelda a chance to hit you.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yea platforms seem very unsafe in that mu.

What is a reliable way to recovery against zelda?
And what should I do to edgeguard?
Blizzard near the edge with nana to try and catch her upB?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Do the same thing that you do to Sheik, but you don't have to be as worried about being sniped off the ledge with fair - pretty much.

There is no reliable recovery against Zelda, unfortunately. She can cover all of your options.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Well thats no fun.
And how can zelda not snip you off the ledge with rising bair/fair? ShroudedOne does that to me all the time .-.
Zelda's b/fair have more reach than sheik, and zelda falls slower and has a better upB, so I'd think she'd be more likely to try silly kick shenanigans like that.

And can zelda cover really high recovery?
Like if you sideB to the top platform?
Its a bad position, but if she doesn't cover it you could retreat to lower ground and reset the spacing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You might be right about the lightning kicks on ledge.

Top platform will get you uair'd (or fair'd/bair'd if you try to back out at the last second), but if it doesn't kill you you can probably fall back down afterwards and reset spacing.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Why would anybody be scared of zelda's uair?
It doesn't even kill until like 200 and can't ever combo into anything and zelda is unable to follow it up.
Sooo, gop platform seems like a relatively ok place to go to.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have much more experience with Brawl Zelda than Melee, I assumed Melee uair KOs.

 

[Binx]

the melee uair is way slower too im pretty sure, regardless we cant out prioritize it so being above her is still bad. She doesn't want to be above us either though so at least thats all good.

The problem Zelda has is that all of her kill moves are really slow and telegraphed, her fsmash is still a smash and as long as you didnt overcommit you should be able to shield it and punish on reaction, her other kill moves are all aerials therefor telegraphed with a jump. In this matchup I feel its mostly correct to just play to not die and you will eventually win because your kill options are just better, especially out of grabs.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Makes sense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with everything Binx said lol

 

[Nintendude]

Zelda is an easy matchup imo. Just don't get kicked. It's easy to see kicks coming from a mile away and if you stay out of her short-hop kick range you'll rarely get hit by it. Zelda has no reliable answer to blizzard so use it to push her towards the edge, where she has no really strong options as long as you are mindful of short-hop kick range. A lot of Zeldas jump while drifting back, which makes her seem like a sitting duck, but then she double jumps and kicks while landing. It's easy to fall for so be mindful of it.

Basically, use projectiles and stay out of kick range and you'll win. Zelda is a one trick pony and her one trick isn't that hard to get around. If you are losing then you are probably being impatient.

edit: Against her recovery just up-B oos Nana to the edge. Unless she's coming from high up it completely eliminates all of her options lol.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'll try to get some matches recorded against ShroudedOne's zelda at some point.

 

[Binx]

if anyone ever wants to add in change or rewrite a section of the guide i check here every once in a while and will update.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

The most impressive thing that johnny doesin this match up is NOT zone. Alot of Falcon players get into the habit of trying to zone with nairs and aerials which are easily dash attacked or punished by ICs. He also doesnt jab Ics shields much. I say its impressive to not zone because many players feel that zoning is how they feel a matchup is safe. Fly has hardly any legitimate trade opportunities or even a pattern of dash dancing he can punish here.
BobtheMoneythedbr posted on youtube as a comment
http://youtu.be/6Z0ncSQNpPA
just thought that was helpful as a low level player to see what lowlevel falcons have trouble with, i was already abusing the dash attack
u playing against ss was kinda sad, like watching captain jack vs peepee @ apex 2012