• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Hypothetical way's we can buff the Doc

Randy411

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
5
I've always been a big fan of the Doctor and when I heard he was in smash 4 I knew I had to main him. Little did I know he was no where as good as his melee counterpart so I was a bit overwhelmed at how much worse he was (I'm sure the rest of you were too)
So for fun some ways to balance the doc without making him OP

Way number 1 # Increase his weight from 98 to 104 he would be as heavy as: Yoshi Link and Falcon and make his sheet act like Mario's and propel him up.

Way number 2 # Give him back some of his Melee combos along with a LITTLE bit more speed on ground and in the air

These are only two ways I'm sure they are more but I'm too tired to think of another and I would like to hear your take on buffing the doctor
He's a lot of fun I'd just like to see him a bit better.
 

Conn1496

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
692
Location
Sheffield, UK
3DS FC
0344-9757-7217
Doc Mario is fine to me. lol

If anything all he needs is a recovery buff, and even then, a minor one.
 

Kisatamura

Prescriber of Manami.
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
246
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
NNID
Kisatamura
3DS FC
1521-4702-6467
Most people on reddit and I assume some of us here just want mobility to the good Doc, even though Sakurai wanted Doc to be slower. Though Doc is much slower compared to regular Mario.

One change I want is Dr. Tornado either getting a damage buff, or more vertical distance. Tornado is how I center my gameplay around Doc, and I think a damage buff would help a ton.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Most people on reddit and I assume some of us here just want mobility to the good Doc, even though Sakurai wanted Doc to be slower. Though Doc is much slower compared to regular Mario.

One change I want is Dr. Tornado either getting a damage buff, or more vertical distance. Tornado is how I center my gameplay around Doc, and I think a damage buff would help a ton.
Yeah, for how risky the move is, Tornado does really low damage. Doesn't need more knockback, but really should do at least 12% total imo.

I would also want less landing lag on F-air, slightly more generous autocancel frames on D-air (and reduced ending lag to make D-air edgeguard slightly easier), and just a tiny bit more base knockback on U-smash.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Better make sure it's damage on the multihitting parts cause there's a VERY good reason for why the last hit does so little (assuming vanilla Nado) as far as knockback via damage and formula goes.

Fair does not need less landing lag so much as it needs to not be sweetspot based like Mario. Based on how the move works, the knockback, and its use off of D-Throw, it should for all intended purposes only have a sour hit maybe on the latest active frames. Sweetspotting Fair with Doc is way less rewarding and it doesn't do much for his kit.

Mobility is a possible thing, a slight increase on both air and ground to be a little better would be appreciated but not entirely necessary IMO.

What I want is damage on his Utilt and Uair to increase to 9 and 10/11 respectively. There's no reason these moves shouldn't hit that hard (at least Uair should get a knock up to par with Luigi's as the angle is similar and Doc does not have Mario's followup game like, at all.)
 

Randy411

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
5
I've always thought if doc is this slow then he shouldn't get launched this easy. But I do agree that he's fair should be easier to land with the sweet spot it's such a badass move.
 

OmegaSorin

The Lucky Hero
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
408
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
NNID
Semjax
I think Doc could be a bit better than he is. Some interesting ideas:

  1. In contrast to Mario's F-Air which spikes, maybe Doc's F-Air can get more knockback to make it more like a side spike.
  2. Definitely think his recovery time could use a boost.
  3. Maybe make a few attacks weaker so we can string them into combo's a bit easier.
 

Doctor_Mario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
94
If Dr. Mario was the only one with a replica wave dashing, that would be pretty fun >:)
 

Kisatamura

Prescriber of Manami.
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
246
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
NNID
Kisatamura
3DS FC
1521-4702-6467
@ TTTTTsd TTTTTsd You mean the knockback growth on the last hit? Probably higher damage values on the loop hits since both Mario's dair and Luigi Cyclone deal more damage in the loop hits whereas their (Or at least Mario's) last hits don't have the uber knockback that Doc has.

Also, I think more hitstun to Uair would also be fine, or at least a more vertical angle. While Doc can combo into UpB from his uair, Mario can do the same and it's super easy to land his instead.
 

KenMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
1,122
NNID
KenMeister
3DS FC
3609-1224-8364
- I'd say get rid of the sour spot on fair, all the while letting it kill earlier. It's hard to land, and it's my least used move because it's not nearly as rewarding as Mario's.
- General damage % buffs across the board. While his KB and frame data is quite fine for getting foes off him, he still has a few trading issues for a character of his strength that he shouldn't have, albeit not nearly as bad as Mario.
- A bit of a mobility buff obviously
- Cape should be able to stall somewhat again.
- Lower base knockback on down tilt to convert into followups
- Bthrow needs more KO power
- Pills need more damage and hitstun

Still a fun character to play (my main after all), but I'd like to see him used competitively almost as often as Mario, so that their matchup charts vary a bit more.
 
Last edited:

Kisatamura

Prescriber of Manami.
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
246
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
NNID
Kisatamura
3DS FC
1521-4702-6467
I just realized that with these balance changes, customs may be altered.

While this probably affects those heavily dependent on customs like DK, do any of us think there may be a possibility that some of Doc's customs may be changed? Remember, customs like Soaring Tornado are mentioned to deal less damage, but we all know that hit has more KO potential than regular Dr. Tornado.
 

KeeblerGuy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
31
All I want is faster ground speed and faster pills. I like how his cape doesn't have stall to be completely honest, can time gimps better.
 

Banjo-Kazooie

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2002
Messages
885
Location
Jalisco, Mexico
NNID
Burudiman
3DS FC
2492-5021-9705
I miss the Melee Fair power. Even I would be okay with just a change to the SE to sound more like the Melee one. Sm4sh one is not as juicy.
Pills being less bouncy wold be ok too. Everything else Im ok with, even recovery.
 

UpsilonFox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Victoria Australia
NNID
FLYINGDAVEno2
3DS FC
1134-7457-1617
The only changes I particularly want are a slightly faster walking and running speed (about half way between his current one and Mario's), and for his Doctor Tornado to have a little less end lag on it.
 

Zegend

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
68
I would very much appreciate faster pills, and general % increases for the majority of his moves, especially upair. Asking for anything else would be expecting too much from Nintendo who clearly hate Dr Mario ( ;_; ), but my dream Dr Mario would also be slightly faster on the ground and have less landing lag after using upB.
Realistically though, I think nintendo are so oblivious to how much buffing he needs that they're only going to increase the vertical recovery on upB/default tornado and then just leave him alone. Let's hope this isn't the case, my bros
 
Last edited:

ZeroJanitor

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
977
Slippi.gg
ZJ#732
NNID
ZeroJanitor
Switch FC
SW-3025-9002-7252
My buff desires for Doc are pretty standard
  • Less knockback on down-throw for follow-ups (doesn't have to be quite as low as Mario's although that would be nice too)
  • Slightly more mobility
  • A stronger and/or more wieldly fair
  • Better recovery
  • Maybe slightly less cooldown on pills
Doc's pretty good as he is he just needs some better options to utilize his strengths
 

Braydon

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
505
Doc shouldn't receive a speed buff because it would make him closer to mario, he needs some buffs but not buffs that make him more like mario.

So rather than giving him things mario has I think it would be best with these changes,
  • Weight increased to something in the 104-107 range (for reference mario is 98, link is 104, wario is 107)
  • Increase priority on Dr tornado and increase damage somewhat
  • Increase back throw power so it can become a kill move around 110%
  • Increase priority on dash attack
  • Slightly increase capsule fire rate
  • Remove the sweetspot from his Fsmash and make the whole hitbox the same sweetspot damage (because his sweetspot is to close to his body and means he'll probably wind up dealing less with fsmash than mario who has his sweetspot on the fireball, and anyway Dr shouldn't hit less than mario.)
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
I like Doc the way he is (also, I know that if he's buffed too much more and more people will use him and I like maining a low-tier, not-so-popular character). That said, the only real buff I'd give him would be less lag between attacks. If I do a dash and then try to do jabs, there's a fairly noticeable lag which always gives the opponent priority. Also, if I roll or spot dodge and then attempt any attack, basically every opponent beats me to it.

I wouldn't mind him having a kill throw or maybe giving his up Smash super armor, but that's probably asking too much. If his d-air had a spiking mechanism built down, just at the tip, that would be pretty sweet as well.

Regarding his recovery, I have no issue with it, but maybe they could give his Tornado more overall movement distance (similar to Luigi's). That way, it still takes skill to use it and it's not ridiculously easy like every single other character's recovery aside from Little Mac.

Oh, and decrease the knockback on his down throw to how it was when Smash 3DS came out. I miss being able to combo that with up-tilts. Why'd they remove that in the first place?

(On a side note, I typed this before reading the other posts. It's funny how all us Doc fans seem to think alike. Let's hope Nintendo does, too!)
 
Last edited:

Dobbston

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
109
I think Dr. Mario is pretty decent but there are a few problems that are holding him back:

-Dr. Mario has good guard punishes and OOS options but is unable to consistently abuse them due to dash grabs being so good and mobility out of shield being so bad.

-Dr. Mario has some decent disjointed hitboxes with some okay range on the ground but pretty much nothing in the air other than the tornado. If the cape had some decent horizontal range it would make up for a lot of what Dr. Mario lacks in the air. Additionally, it'd be nice if Bair was a bit more disjointed or at least had a bit larger vertical hitbox.


Dr. Mario can maybe win games spamming perfectly mashed tornadoes and grabs but in order for the rest of his moveset to really shine some of these problems would need to be fixed.
 
Last edited:

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
@ WeirdJoe27 WeirdJoe27

His Dair can meteor unlike mario so he doesn't need a Fair meteor.
Really? I guess I don't typically use the Dair off stage, but I didn't realize it could already meteor (can anyone else confirm this?). I guess I'll have to check it out regardless. I guess what I meant was a reliable meteor like Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, etc.
 

Braydon

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
505
Hmm... Can't seem to repeat the meteor, it might just be a glitch where one frame has a fixed downward knockback, idk.

Anyway it should meteor, not his fsmash because that would be just like mario.
 

Zegend

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
68
Yeah, Dr. Mario's dair doesn't have a reliable spike at all, which is pretty dumb because Luigi's dair is a really good spike. pls fix nintendo
 
Last edited:

MarioMeteor

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
8,340
Location
New Orleans
NNID
BGenius23
3DS FC
0662-2900-1492
Just give me my Melee Doc Punch, Sheet, Megavitamins and maybe down smash, my Smash 4 Doc Jump and a Tornado and mobility buff, and I'm Gucci.
 

Randy411

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
5
A
I like Doc the way he is (also, I know that if he's buffed too much more and more people will use him and I like maining a low-tier, not-so-popular character). That said, the only real buff I'd give him would be less lag between attacks. If I do a dash and then try to do jabs, there's a fairly noticeable lag which always gives the opponent priority. Also, if I roll or spot dodge and then attempt any attack, basically every opponent beats me to it.

I wouldn't mind him having a kill throw or maybe giving his up Smash super armor, but that's probably asking too much. If his d-air had a spiking mechanism built down, just at the tip, that would be pretty sweet as well.

Regarding his recovery, I have no issue with it, but maybe they could give his Tornado more overall movement distance (similar to Luigi's). That way, it still takes skill to use it and it's not ridiculously easy like every single other character's recovery aside from Little Mac.

Oh, and decrease the knockback on his down throw to how it was when Smash 3DS came out. I miss being able to combo that with up-tilts. Why'd they remove that in the first place?

(On a side note, I typed this before reading the other posts. It's funny how all us Doc fans seem to think alike. Let's hope Nintendo does, too!)
I feel the same way.

On a side note I like the suggestions all of em all good now lets pray Nintendo does something when they release the Mewtwo balance patch.
 
Last edited:

Doc Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
66
Dr.Mario's supposed to be an average character but he runs slower than even King Dedede who is not only 600 pounds and has no legs, but he also has a huge hammer to carry with him. I'm a Doc main for smash 4 and I have to say, Dr.Mario's much slower than Mario and just a bit stronger, it's not balanced, air speed is decent, recovery is pretty good if you use it right but running speed is beyond under average. Boost the Docs running to a 1.439 and Doc should be just as good as Mario, that's seriously all he needs and maybe his pills should do 6% damage a piece but that's really it. The whole Mario's attacks times 1.12 but he's 18% slower than Mario was a stupid unfair idea.
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
Dr.Mario's supposed to be an average character but he runs slower than even King Dedede who is not only 600 pounds and has no legs, but he also has a huge hammer to carry with him. I'm a Doc main for smash 4 and I have to say, Dr.Mario's much slower than Mario and just a bit stronger, it's not balanced, air speed is decent, recovery is pretty good if you use it right but running speed is beyond under average. Boost the Docs running to a 1.439 and Doc should be just as good as Mario, that's seriously all he needs and maybe his pills should do 6% damage a piece but that's really it. The whole Mario's attacks times 1.12 but he's 18% slower than Mario was a stupid unfair idea.
If not that (or even with that), I'd really like to see them make him heavier. I was stunned to find out the other day that Doc and Mario's weights are identical. Why??? Doc is slower, doesn't jump as high, has a horrible recovery and is only slightly stronger than Mario yet they weigh the same? On the flip side, look at Yoshi..... he's quick, quite powerful and is fairly heavy.

Nice "balance", Sakurai. Maybe they'll do another balance patch with/after Lucas and can address some of these ridiculous issues. Probably not, though.
 

Doc Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
66
If not that (or even with that), I'd really like to see them make him heavier. I was stunned to find out the other day that Doc and Mario's weights are identical. Why??? Doc is slower, doesn't jump as high, has a horrible recovery and is only slightly stronger than Mario yet they weigh the same? On the flip side, look at Yoshi..... he's quick, quite powerful and is fairly heavy.

Nice "balance", Sakurai. Maybe they'll do another balance patch with/after Lucas and can address some of these ridiculous issues. Probably not, though.
It is a terrible excuse for balancing but Dr.Mario doesn't have horrible recovery, you just gotta really tap the down b and be sure to use it before you jump. He has like average recovery but, meh, I guess it could be slightly buffed, they should make Dr.Mario be able to angle his up b more to the side for recovery. The only thing that's really bad about Dr.Mario is his running speed, he is only faster than like 5 or six characters, that's really not a balanced character if he runs that slow. I'm telling ya, make that 1.43 running speed and Doc should be straight. He's good already but not as good as Mario due to his terrible running speed.
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
It is a terrible excuse for balancing but Dr.Mario doesn't have horrible recovery, you just gotta really tap the down b and be sure to use it before you jump. He has like average recovery but, meh, I guess it could be slightly buffed, they should make Dr.Mario be able to angle his up b more to the side for recovery. The only thing that's really bad about Dr.Mario is his running speed, he is only faster than like 5 or six characters, that's really not a balanced character if he runs that slow. I'm telling ya, make that 1.43 running speed and Doc should be straight. He's good already but not as good as Mario due to his terrible running speed.
I don't personally have an issue with his recovery, but there are times where it's just ridiculous. If you try to play off stage, which is obviously risky as Doc, there are so many ways for things to go wrong. For example, I've had people unintenially Toadstool me and it's impossible to recovery. Same goes for Yoshi's that camp by the side and try to egg you. By the time you break out, it's impossible to recover. Again, same goes for Kirby's, DeDeDe's and Donkey Kong's that inhale/grab you and walk off the side. By the time you break free, you're dead. That's where the bad recovery comes in, not typical recovery situations. Other than Little Mac, I can't think of anyone with worse recovery. Even Ganondorf's seems better to me.

Regarding the running speed, while I'd love to see him faster, I doubt they do it. If anything, I could see them making him more powerful or heavier before being faster. Hopefully they give him some sort of buff next time around instead of simply changing the mechanics of one of his moves.
 

Doc Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
66
I don't personally have an issue with his recovery, but there are times where it's just ridiculous. If you try to play off stage, which is obviously risky as Doc, there are so many ways for things to go wrong. For example, I've had people unintenially Toadstool me and it's impossible to recovery. Same goes for Yoshi's that camp by the side and try to egg you. By the time you break out, it's impossible to recover. Again, same goes for Kirby's, DeDeDe's and Donkey Kong's that inhale/grab you and walk off the side. By the time you break free, you're dead. That's where the bad recovery comes in, not typical recovery situations. Other than Little Mac, I can't think of anyone with worse recovery. Even Ganondorf's seems better to me.

Regarding the running speed, while I'd love to see him faster, I doubt they do it. If anything, I could see them making him more powerful or heavier before being faster. Hopefully they give him some sort of buff next time around instead of simply changing the mechanics of one of his moves.
Okay, I know exactly what you mean now about getting footstool and killing your recovery, that stuff is garbage. The cpus are somehow perfect at getting those in lol, so maybe they should increase his Jump punch height.
Doc really doesn't need to be stronger anywhere really, maybe his up air should do 9% damage and pills do 6% but both of those aren't really necessary... not really.
As for the speed Sakurai is terrible if he doesn't buff his running to a 1.432, seriously, Doc can't even run faster than King Bublin on the hyrule bridge stage it's ridiculous. It's probably why so many people think he's so much worse than Mario because again, Dr.Mario's much slower and a just a bit stronger, it's just unbalanced, give that boy a speed boost I'm telling ya that 1.432 boost will make a ton of people start using Doc.
 

Eight_SixtyFour

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
622
I just wonder why they made his SJP height shorter than Mario's. That's more of an annoyance for me when it comes to recovery.
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
I just wonder why they made his SJP height shorter than Mario's. That's more of an annoyance for me when it comes to recovery.
Also, while I love the new mechanic of the move, I do miss it working similar to Mario's (hit boxes the entire way for multiple hits). I'd like to have seen them make the first hit super powerful, like it already is, and the rest of the attack work similar to Mario's upB. Also, instead of coins flying out of the opponent why not....... wait for it....... VIRUSES!?!?! Seriously, that would have been awesome. Oh well, maybe in Smash 5.
 

Eight_SixtyFour

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
622
Also, while I love the new mechanic of the move, I do miss it working similar to Mario's (hit boxes the entire way for multiple hits). I'd like to have seen them make the first hit super powerful, like it already is, and the rest of the attack work similar to Mario's upB. Also, instead of coins flying out of the opponent why not....... wait for it....... VIRUSES!?!?! Seriously, that would have been awesome. Oh well, maybe in Smash 5.
I really don't miss it. SJP is so good in this game. Tornado is really good in this game too.
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
I really don't miss it. SJP is so good in this game. Tornado is really good in this game too.
Agreed, I just miss the way it would string upward (might have possibly helped recovery a little). Also, it's nice to have that continuous hitbox throughout the move. Now, if you miss upB on the initial start-up, you're kind of left hanging. Before, you could miss the start-up and connect midmove (like Mario).
 

Doc Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
66
Jump punch is much better in this game as well as his tornado because he can cancel it alot faster with a double jump now. Just raise the speed to 1.432 and I think he'll be as good as melee Doc... I think.
 

WeirdJoe27

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
619
Location
AZ
NNID
AZBros
Jump punch is much better in this game as well as his tornado because he can cancel it alot faster with a double jump now. Just raise the speed to 1.432 and I think he'll be as good as melee Doc... I think.
Are you sure 1.430 or 1.439 wouldn't be better? :b:
 
Last edited:

Doc Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
66
I think it'll be decent, that way he'll have balanced stats, somewhere around the 1.430 area is good. People would probably be good with Dr.Mario after a small speed boost. I don't know, that could make him better than melee Doc
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom