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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Why did I stop getting notifications for this thread again? Jeez it's annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKDb8XVIy0c
me vs ace (top 5 in colorado)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur331owPm6Q
me vs slipnslide (best in colorado for over 10 years)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNrDMdmORhU
me vs keyo (2nd best fox in colorado)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pDLbeLp56E
me vs kurt mcgurt (best falco MAIN in colorado)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji1grvluvD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja2v5KX01ZE
assorted doubles matches, grands and winners finals vs doubles fox with ACE

okay this is a huge ****ing dump and i haven't had this much solid footage in some time, so i want you guys to rip me to shreds

but also Coastward Coastward i hope you can find stuff of me from this to add to the video if you haven't done it already
Ian you need to be combo DIing a lot better, especially vs Falcon and Marth. I've been really good at getting into the habit of DIing down and away against Falcon combos and it definitely does more good than harm. I'd suggest just DIing down and away all the time vs Falcon cause most people can't even combo or hit off that DI, and even if the Falcon tries to knee when you DI down and away, I'm pretty sure you can upair him before his knee even comes out. You gave both Ace and SlipnSlide few free combos that could have definitely been avoided.

I also see you doing a lot of unnecessary waveland attempts that you keep messing up, and giving your opponent a free hit on you as a result of that.

I'm also not seeing enough high-angle f-tilt against Falcon when he's nair happy.

Those are definitely things I noticed the most that you could do better on.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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So I've been playing Ganon vs a lot of Fox lately and I thought I'd take the time to break down all of Fox's approach options on Ganon and how Ganon can counter them. I'll start with the most common and then get less common as I go on.

- Short Hop Nair -
Probably one of the most common approaches Foxes will try to do against Ganon. They'll shoot lasers as you until you get close and then dash forward into an instant SH nair, that will likely lead into a shine.
How to Counter: Crouch Cancels are your friend here. You're going to be CC jabbing more than you are CC grabbing because it is very likely that the Fox can shine you before your grab even comes out, so it's best to just get him off of you so that he can't get and easy 40% on you from a waveshine upsmash or whatever he feels like. Retreating bair can also counter this if you can predict it early enough. CC or shield are really your last resorts if you are purely reacting.

- Short Hop Drill -
Another common approach that Fox can do that is more difficult for Ganon to counter because it can't be CCed.
How to Counter: SDI away or behind Fox, depending on where you are on the stage and how much room you have to SDI. If you are near the ledge and Fox is going to try to drill shine you towards the ledge, you should probably be focusing more on grabbing the ledge when he tries to shine you off stage. This however can be countered if the Fox double-shines you, as the first shine will put you in the air, and the second one will put you in the air a little more and make it much harder to impossible for you to grab the ledge after being shined. Some easy you can do it C-stick in a direction to ASDI the drill, and use the control stick to SDI the shine.

- Running Shine -
Basic and common approach that a lot of Foxes will go for especially if they see you jumping a lot in the air. They will try to sneak underneath you and shine you while you are in the air, allowing them to keep you there and combo you pretty badly.
How to Counter: This one is a bit more easier to react to than the other short hop options that Fox has since he has to get pretty close to you to shine you, not to mention he has to run straight at you just to hit you with a grounded move. Ganon wants this because his retreating aerials beat this approach 9 times out of 10, especially if you anticipate it in neutral. You don't want to challenge this approach directly cause Fox's moves are faster than yours, so you need to be defensive and retreat. This will also work if the Fox wants to run-up grab or run-up upsmash.

- Full Hop Nair -
A bit more uncommon but this approach is very difficult for Ganon to get around. Not only is the start up for nair really good, but because it's a sex kick, he can rise with it and come down with the nair and still hit a standing Ganon from a full hop. That hitbox it out the entire time, covering all that space that Fox will be full hopping into. This is especially deadly if Fox catches you jumping in the air with this, cause he can fall faster than you, land, and shine/uptilt/whatever before you're even able to touch the ground. My friend was playing a bunch of Fox yesterday and this was the thing he kept doing in neutral a lot that was really starting to get on my nerves because of how many options it was covering.
How to Counter: the same way you counter a short hop nair, except it's a smaller window to get a jab after the CC cause Fox can hit you on the way down from his fastfall, where in the short hop version, he can hit you as he's rising, giving you a lot more time to respond with something. You can also beat this by reading it ahead of time and spacing an instant upair to beat the nair, but it can be very tricky as you really need to do it ahead of time. Of course it helps to read them jumping in the first place, but that goes for any jump really.

- Full Hop Drill -
This one is different from Full Hop Nair because it doesn't last as long as the nair does, so it's more susceptible to being instant upaired, but this is also not CCable, and you will have to ASDI and SDI your way to get out of it.

- Short Hop Upair -
This is a weird one and very situational, but if you're not careful it can really mess up your day. It has a bit of start up, but if it lands, not only will it catch you in the air, but it can catch you on the ground, and it's also not CCable.
How to Counter: Fortunately, since there is a good bit of ending lag for Fox if he does this, as long as you don't get hit, you can counter this with a lot of things. It doesn't have good horizontal range, so you can easily outspace it. A Fox will likely do this as a weird approach mix-up, and the reward is huge if he lands it.
 

Swagic

Smash Journeyman
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Indianapolis or South Florida
Midwest spacies are pretty much just all bad minus kels and kjh, so maybe that's what they mean... lol. The general style here is super campy too, so pretty annoying to play against at times. I actually super hate playing against kels's fox
See, that would explain the jank. Campy and not actually that great. Sounds pretty strange.
 

Coastward

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so i'm gonna wait a few weeks so that you guys can get more clips for the video, probably gonna wait until GOML to start it.

keep sending me clips though, i wanna make this thing big.
 

tm

Smash Ace
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*wall of green text*
Some things that I think are worth mentioning:

SH nair:
PS jab (read)

FH nair:
PS jab (read)
SH uair (read)
Shield angle up -> shieldgrab (react)

SH drill:
shield grab (works surprisingly often)

(not to say shielding is a good plan, or that these are better than options you listed, but worth mentioning)

Running shine:
FH stomp (also works when they mix up running shine with running through you)

Good **** pointing out SH uair as an approach. Staying grounded works much better vs that.

so i'm gonna wait a few weeks so that you guys can get more clips for the video, probably gonna wait until GOML to start it.

keep sending me clips though, i wanna make this thing big.
I looked at all my recent stuff and I really don't have anything video-worthy lol. oh well
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I'd suggest just DIing down and away all the time vs Falcon
This is optimal right up until dj sweetspot to ledge is no longer an option. Straight away and slightly higher than straight away become better when you'll be sent offstage, especially when hit with a uair, as you have much more recovery options. Uair is tricky, if falcon hits you with the very top of the move you need to be closer to straight away so he can't follow up (if he hits you with the outer portion of the uair you get sent farther and can DI slightly more up).
 
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Toa Idar

Banned via Warnings
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Jan 18, 2014
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Practical TAS just uploaded a video showcasing all of Ganondorfs invincible ledge options.
You guys probably already know about them all, but still a really cool video.
 

-ACE-

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Options out of the Ganon "sweetspot" (in quotes because he can't really sweetspot) are so situational. If you manage to "sweetspot", it's worth trying an INV option in some situations since you'll have the added 10 frames, but the most important INV options are the simple ones... Ledgehop jab and ledgehop grab. Ledgedash jab too, but good players cover ledgedash really well nowadays.
 

X WaNtEd X

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I think NIL dash forward is an underrated ledge option to combat people that cover ledgedash. It's much less comital, gives you options, and works against good players.
 

-ACE-

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I think NIL dash forward is an underrated ledge option to combat people that cover ledgedash. It's much less comital, gives you options, and works against good players.
That works well with dash attack to setup an edgeguard

Ledgehop wd off is like never used and useful too

You can even do a poor man's pseudo dash with it
 
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RedmanSSBM

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Something I find really useful at the edge is NIL to immediate dash attack. You might not be fully intangible up until the dash attack, but it's certainly a really solid way to get out of the corner without using down-b or side-b.
 

X WaNtEd X

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That works well with dash attack to setup an edgeguard

Ledgehop wd off is like never used and useful too

You can even do a poor man's pseudo dash with it
Something I find really useful at the edge is NIL to immediate dash attack. You might not be fully intangible up until the dash attack, but it's certainly a really solid way to get out of the corner without using down-b or side-b.
I think it can work well with dash attack. But options that cover NIL down-b/side-b and ledgedash will cover NIL dash attack too. But what I like about it is you can NIL and then see if your opponent is going to do something dash attack will work against. It's not as comital as down-b or side-b.

But what I was really getting at with the NIL dash is that good players often cover immediate options from the ledge. They don't expect you to simply take stage and fight back in a straight forward way. So they'll be covering the area right next to the ledge and your ledge dash range, or the space where your ledge dash is no longer invincible. But the area in between both is often not covered as well. Like a bair dropped from a platform from a Fox aimed to disrupt ledgedash might not be safe on shield because the fox is only thinking about covering your ledgedash and not pressuring you properly. Or maybe you angle your shield and they weren't prepared for that intensive shield pressure situation where they have to be on point against your defensive shenanigans because they're in the "cover ledge options" mindset.

The ledgehop wd off I think is good when your opponent is far away and you realize you can take ledge real quick again to do a ledgedash attack on them. I like that pseudodash idea too. Speaking of, I think I finally realize what I was doing wrong with it. I kept trying to drift instead of holding the control stick forward off the dj. I always see myself get high enough, just not far out enough. I'm going to practice it more.

Oh and what do people think about psuedodash moonwalk? You can change directions off the platform. There's also psuedodash imperfect wl into dash or pivot into shai drop so you can get a precise spacing on whatever aerial you want to drop through the platform with.
 
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RedmanSSBM

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I think it can work well with dash attack. But options that cover NIL down-b/side-b and ledgedash will cover NIL dash attack too. But what I like about it is you can NIL and then see if your opponent is going to do something dash attack will work against. It's not as comital as down-b or side-b.

But what I was really getting at with the NIL dash is that good players often cover immediate options from the ledge. They don't expect you to simply take stage and fight back in a straight forward way. So they'll be covering the area right next to the ledge and your ledge dash range, or the space where your ledge dash is no longer invincible. But the area in between both is often not covered as well. Like a bair dropped from a platform from a Fox aimed to disrupt ledgedash might not be safe on shield because the fox is only thinking about covering your ledgedash and not pressuring you properly. Or maybe you angle your shield and they weren't prepared for that intensive shield pressure situation where they have to be on point against your defensive shenanigans because they're in the "cover ledge options" mindset.

The ledgehop wd off I think is good when your opponent is far away and you realize you can take ledge real quick again to do a ledgedash attack on them. I like that pseudodash idea too. Speaking of, I think I finally realize what I was doing wrong with it. I kept trying to drift instead of holding the control stick forward off the dj. I always see myself get high enough, just not far out enough. I'm going to practice it more.

Oh and what do people think about psuedodash moonwalk? You can change directions off the platform. There's also psuedodash imperfect wl into dash or pivot into shai drop so you can get a precise spacing on whatever aerial you want to drop through the platform with.
Actually just after testing it for a bit in debug mode, I found that if you are frame perfect, as in you ledge hop NIL, dash the frame you are able to on stage, and then wait 4 frames to input the dash attack, you will be fully intangible up until the first hitbox of the dash attack.

You're definitely right about having to deal with enemies trying to cover your ledge-hop options. This is very easily beaten by RLDing and double jumping immediately into a fair or whatever move of your choosing really. Or you could fake them out and just do a hax dash and then do the NIL dash attack (like you said).

Probably the hardest Pseudo-tech I can think of to do would be to Pseudo-dash into a waveland on the side platform, into a moonwalk, where once you're turned around from the moonwalk you shield drop bair (yes it's possible to shield drop out of a moonwalk).

Another useful tip for getting good at ledge dashing and RLDing is to use Ganon's ledge-grab sound as an audio cue to let go and do the tech. Gravy said he's trying to do this to prevent doing tournament winners, and it seems to be pretty effective for every character really.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Well then that's a better option than I originally thought.

RLD dj fair is a gimmick in that situation, sadly enough. Same with NIL dash off dj bair. Gravy showed me ways they both could be beaten on reaction by falcon or any other fast character. Good players look for things like this to punish. That's why gravy told me NIL dash is a good option. So a lot of what I say about that are things he told me.

The audio cue stuff is cool. Personally I just use the little circle that appears when you grab the ledge as a cue. I play completely visually. Listening to my own music or the irl sounds helps me get into flow state better.
 
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Thomas Tipman

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dude i use ledge hop wavedash to ledge grab all the time and never thought of using it as a poor mans psuedo dash. def doing that.

Ace hmu sometime ive been working on my game and seeing difference. you going to vs sunday?
 

Aephage

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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Thomas Tipman Thomas Tipman yeah man I'll be there!

Aephage Aephage I'm not the luigi expert here but at least I can take games off Blea occasionally. You have to read his approaches and not be intimidated. The best thing is to use really intelligent aerial baits imo. If he doesn't take the bait, be ready to empty land off your dj and low ftilt or jab his approach. Pressure him at ledge too. You want to put a hitbox or a grab right where his ledgedash runs out of INV. Think about where Marth would stand if he wanted to tipper fsmash someone teetering on ledge. That's about where his INV will run out. Space him out and make the most of your grabs (dthrow to uair, bair, fair depending on percent/DI).
 
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-ACE-

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Aephage Aephage watched first set. You have the basics down well, just a few misjudgments, mis-timings, and over-commitals. Edgeguarding could be better too. But good stuff, I'll check the other one later

Second set, he was starting to adapt to your overuse of bair as your go-to strat. Be careful with fully approaching bairs unless you know they'll hit. You always roll away when he shields one too. Try to mix in low ftilt and jab if he's wd'ing oos at you quickly. If the bair won't reach, waveland or empty land into low ftilt/jab. Whenever you try to read his recovery, you usually fail, and when you react, you usually win... take note of that. You're baiting him well when you take a platform, he often comes in immediately. When you took a plat and decided to fake a plat drop to soon (drop into instant dj wL in place), he was already in your face with an aerial. Keep a good eye on him. DI away harder, with SDI when you're at low percent too, and watch your double jumps after you DI the uthrow behind. Good stuff beating that guy though he's pretty good. One more thing... He doesn't use shield stops. AT ALL. So the wd is a huge commitment.

Also I had to watch 13:24 3 times, I swear it looks like he had a turbo B button. It just looks like he presses the button and holds it there lmao. Just coincidence I'm sure.
 
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tm

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Also I had to watch 13:24 3 times, I swear it looks like he had a turbo B button. It just looks like he presses the button and holds it there lmao. Just coincidence I'm sure.
wow wtf? do they not have to rapid press in PAL or something? lol
 
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PseudoTurtle

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Aephage Aephage good stuff. Your spacing is pretty good, it looks like you know the matchup well. A few luigi things: at first, when you would bair his shield, you would roll away. Luigi will almost always wavedash out and cross you up with dsmash or something because that covers your roll or a standard retreat. You adapted well by double jumping over his wavedash and fairing him, but he got used to it and you didn't adapt. I'd like to see more tilts as a mixup here. Should stuff him every time.

Basically, that's all I got in terms of your neutral. As for edge guarding, that DJ fireball is annoying, but you can marth killer it and then utilize ledge invincibility to edge guard. Eikeldrops and ledge hop up airs are good tools in this scenario. As for preemptively covering his side b recovery, you seemed ok. Just bair and up air that ****

edit: just watched second set, you went back to rolling away after attacking his shield or whiffing an aerial. He didn't seem to punish you as often as he could have, but tilting would definitely be a better option here than rolling away. Just keep it in mind
 
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Aephage

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Thanks for your advices guys !

wow wtf? do they not have to rapid press in PAL or something? lol
Yes they have to rapid press in PAL too, it's hard to see on this video but I was doing it haha
 
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