X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Seriously considering just using Falco against campy foxes on DL, Pokemon, and FD. Maybe just in general.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I'm going through the same type of thing right now (but at a MUCH lower level), and someone finally pointed something out to me- I was worrying too much about the result. See, mindsets don't just change overnight. It takes quite a bit of mental effort in order to overcome the bad patterns your brain has established. The advice I was given was to watch my process. So for the last week or so I've been playing and focusing purely on making sure I make the right moves and playing smarter, instead of falling into my old bad habits (See: random wizard's foot). Unfortunately, it made me come dead last at the last tourney I entered, first one out by a scrubby Luigi and a mediocre (at best) Falcon, both players I have beaten dozens of times. I lost, but I played MUCH better.
Basically, you're trying to unlearn mental habits. It will take time and effort. You're going to have to focus on how you're playing, not how you finish, for a while. I advise many many friendlies to help you reinforce this mindset. Good luck. It's not easy.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya on my side I lost to DJ and Jflex.. I played ok vs DJ but he outsmarted me overall.. he did a few things i didnt expect and i didnt adapt in time. Also after that i felt pretty much braindead with 0 sleep, so a little word of advice dont play Ganon if you cant think straight and also i got Sheiked gg.
Update, so I did God awful at the tournament. Only 6 people showed up and one of them was #5 in my area's PR. I went 0-5 and have A LOT of work to do. On the bright side I don't feel discouraged at all, if anything this beating fueled me to grind even more so I can go back and avenge myself lol. My tag is Oki. Not exactly sure when I played but it's there haha. Btw, Gangly is my training partner and he was the one I played in the last video I posted.
http://www.twitch.tv/bros_calamity/v/39678211
http://www.twitch.tv/bros_calamity/v/39678211
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I'll reply to this fully later. It's getting late for me and tomorrow will be pretty busy for me so I might not get to the response for a bit.
Linguini
Smash Master
New ep is out now. Grab it to support ya boy cheesus!
https://pro.beatport.com/release/oasis/1687275
https://pro.beatport.com/release/oasis/1687275
https://youtu.be/05V1K2_wTik
I almost won the second game but I was playing so bad, so many missed free punishes
I almost won the second game but I was playing so bad, so many missed free punishes
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
@Coastward What you have felt recently is something that I have struggled for a bit but I believe I know the solution to this rather complex problem now. I know there have been plenty of tournaments where I practice something new and then never use it in tournament. Usually the core problem of this is that you're not actually practicing in the right way in order to have that stuff be drilled into your head. You need to do practice on a consistent and daily basis, but it only needs to be for like an hour or so. You also need to focus on doing just one specific tech when you are practicing and once you got the basic part down, you keep doing it while also trying to expand out from that tech and do more options and execute more difficult things. For example, what I did with Falcon yesterday was I practiced JC grabs pretty much the entire time, as well as tech-chasing a 20xx falco cpu. I was just concentrating on the JC grabs at first, but once I got a handle on them, I then started to try to turn around and wavedash FF to grab the ledge after d-throwing Falco off stage. If you learn to be creative and practice practical tech in expansion from the basic tech that is a fundamental need to know, then it will be beneficial for you in the long run, especially if you really do it on a consistent basis.
Things become a little different when you are playing in tournament of course. You're never going to immediately implement these new pieces of tech in tournament because as much as you want to believe you're comfortable with the tech you have been practicing, you are only comfortable doing it by yourself and it's an ingrained unconscious thing. You then need to learn to implement it in friendlies without any fear of messing up so that you get more comfortable doing it when nothing is on the line, but against another player. The key here is to not have any fear of messing up when you try it in friendlies because if you have that fear, then you will not even attempt to do the new tech and you'll just go back to playing the way you're most comfortable and used to, because your brain doesn't like it when it's uncomfortable. You're going to SD, mess up, and die a lot. So what, it's friendlies and it's a learning experience. If you mess up the first 20 time but get it on the 21st try, then that's progress. You have to keep pushing through with trying to implement this stuff in friendlies, and then once you are completely comfortable with doing the new tech in friendlies, then it should be pretty natural to do the tech in tournament. Keep in mind that now there is something on the line for tournament, your level of comfort is going to decrease again with the thought that you might mess up your new tech. Don't worry about if you'll mess it up or not and just do it. "Let it happen" as Timothy Gallwey would put it, so that you remove emotion from your play and it won't interfere.
It's a long-term investment but it pays off extensively if you execute it right and stick to the plan and don't give up. Giving up means that you essentially have to start over from a lessened point than you were at before. It's important to be committed to the tech that you want to implement, especially if it's actually practical for tournament use and can be the difference between winning and losing a match. Practice makes perfect.
Things become a little different when you are playing in tournament of course. You're never going to immediately implement these new pieces of tech in tournament because as much as you want to believe you're comfortable with the tech you have been practicing, you are only comfortable doing it by yourself and it's an ingrained unconscious thing. You then need to learn to implement it in friendlies without any fear of messing up so that you get more comfortable doing it when nothing is on the line, but against another player. The key here is to not have any fear of messing up when you try it in friendlies because if you have that fear, then you will not even attempt to do the new tech and you'll just go back to playing the way you're most comfortable and used to, because your brain doesn't like it when it's uncomfortable. You're going to SD, mess up, and die a lot. So what, it's friendlies and it's a learning experience. If you mess up the first 20 time but get it on the 21st try, then that's progress. You have to keep pushing through with trying to implement this stuff in friendlies, and then once you are completely comfortable with doing the new tech in friendlies, then it should be pretty natural to do the tech in tournament. Keep in mind that now there is something on the line for tournament, your level of comfort is going to decrease again with the thought that you might mess up your new tech. Don't worry about if you'll mess it up or not and just do it. "Let it happen" as Timothy Gallwey would put it, so that you remove emotion from your play and it won't interfere.
It's a long-term investment but it pays off extensively if you execute it right and stick to the plan and don't give up. Giving up means that you essentially have to start over from a lessened point than you were at before. It's important to be committed to the tech that you want to implement, especially if it's actually practical for tournament use and can be the difference between winning and losing a match. Practice makes perfect.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
oh...
http://www.teamyp.com/bizzarro-flame-retires/#post-top
http://www.teamyp.com/bizzarro-flame-retires/#post-top
Dang this kind of blows. I didn't really see it coming so soon, but I can't say that it was to be expected. It sucks to see another Ganon go because of real life obligations, but that's just the nature of life it seems. Some of the articles are a little misleading, claiming that "Bizz is the best active Ganon" and that "Ganon is one of Melee's worst characters" on the dailydot article.
Ah whatever. Not gonna be picky about that. It just sucks to see so much potential to have Ganon go forward in the meta just fade in an instant. That's life for ya.
I don't know when life will be catching up to me as well and I'll be focusing more on my career, but it's probably gonna happen soon and I'll have to drop Smash cause of it. It'll be a sad day but I don't want to worry about that right now.
I don't know when life will be catching up to me as well and I'll be focusing more on my career, but it's probably gonna happen soon and I'll have to drop Smash cause of it. It'll be a sad day but I don't want to worry about that right now.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
That's too bad. You know, even when I worked 84 hour weeks I still never totally quit melee. I've taken a break from work the past year, cause, **** it, that's why. Lol. But even when I start back I'll be playing a little bit and still posting. Nationals are still always a possibility. And I really think as a Ganon player, as long as you play 1-2 times a week for tech, and get in lots of friendlies the day before a national you could do fairly well. I'm hoping this is just a mandatory retirement from team yp because his profession won't allow for the minimum tournament attendance required, and that we'll still see him on stream from time to time and at nationals.
All good things come to an end but this definitely was extremely surprising, they posted this article on my local scene FB page and we all just kept commenting "easy money" hahaha
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Team YP should pick up Kage lol
He loves fisting
He loves fisting
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
@Coastward I wanted to take some time to respond to this post. I can relate to a lot of it, but I also have some issues with a few parts. I also have a few things to add to this discussion. I'm going to use Locke's post to give my thoughts, as he mentioned a lot of what I wanted to touch on. By the way, I noticed you're leading a team for your school in the Melee Games. I'm doing the same in the fall. Let me know how that goes. It feels weird being a Ganon captain of a school of players lol. I'm like teaching some and they want to try Ganon, but I'm like "yeahhhhh you might want to think about that a bit."
Be careful with your wording here. Not everyone learns things the same way. There are three main types of learning: tactile, auditory, and visual. And within those three main archetypes, there are lots of different ways people process information. For some, a lot of practice every day is great. Improvement for these people is proportional to the amount of time put in. But for others, such as yourself from the sounds of it, too much practice can overwhelm and cause you not to focus properly or really process new skills.
I think it's more about figuring yourself out and executing a plan that plays to your strengths. I used to practice a lot of different tech every day. I don't think it was the most optimal way to practice for myself, but I did grow as a player because of it. My growth was more long term, though. I saw little to no results in the short term, which often discouraged me. But after just trying to do so many things at once for long enough, it all just came together eventually, and I noticed huge improvements over a short period before I plateaued again. I'm kind of doing the same thing now, but it's more directed than it was before. It's like I'm improving slowly in the short term, but I'm working on things that will all come together and give me another "burst" of improvement again.
I agree. But I think it's important to keep an open mind and not preemptively label tech as practical or impractical. Rather, I like to break tech down to situational use and determine whether it's useful in those cases.
Well said. I think how fast you implement something in tournament all depends on the difficulty of the tech you're trying to implement, and you. It took me so long to implement shield drops in tournament properly. I could do it consistently on my own, but I could just never seem to do it right in tournament. The thing is, I tried to use it for quite some time. Almost immediately after learning it, I was trying it. But I wasn't consistently trying it. Sometimes, that unconscious thing you speak of would prevent me from doing it. Same thing with a lot of ledge tech. But some things, like ledgedashing, I just started using immediately with no fear.
I watched a TED Talk recently where this guy talked about how extrinsic motivators, such as money, only seemed to actually have a positive effect on people's ability when they were doing straight-forward tasks that required no thought. But when thought was required for a task, these extrinsic motivators significantly hindered people. Studies have found that intrinsic motivation is the key to success when a task involves thought. When you think about this in the context of smash, it makes a lot of sense. A lot of people seem to talk about how they play better in friendlies and fall apart in tournament. People chalk it up as "nerves," or a lack of experience, but it's not always that straight forward.
I don't know about you or anyone else here, but I've played some of my best smash when I had absolutely no expectations of myself or motivation. I simply put all my thought into the game without a concern for how I would do. You can never truly separate yourself from these extrinsic motivators, such as the prize money and ego boost you'll get from doing well at a tournament or winning a money match. But I think there's a lot you can do to transform that motivation into a different form that is more practical in this game. I'm still teaching myself how to do this. Players like S2J and Lucky talk about how they never look at brackets in tournament. Maybe there's a reason for that carefree attitude. Deep down, I think these guys just have it figured out.
Be careful with your wording here. Not everyone learns things the same way. There are three main types of learning: tactile, auditory, and visual. And within those three main archetypes, there are lots of different ways people process information. For some, a lot of practice every day is great. Improvement for these people is proportional to the amount of time put in. But for others, such as yourself from the sounds of it, too much practice can overwhelm and cause you not to focus properly or really process new skills.
I think it's more about figuring yourself out and executing a plan that plays to your strengths. I used to practice a lot of different tech every day. I don't think it was the most optimal way to practice for myself, but I did grow as a player because of it. My growth was more long term, though. I saw little to no results in the short term, which often discouraged me. But after just trying to do so many things at once for long enough, it all just came together eventually, and I noticed huge improvements over a short period before I plateaued again. I'm kind of doing the same thing now, but it's more directed than it was before. It's like I'm improving slowly in the short term, but I'm working on things that will all come together and give me another "burst" of improvement again.
I agree. But I think it's important to keep an open mind and not preemptively label tech as practical or impractical. Rather, I like to break tech down to situational use and determine whether it's useful in those cases.
Well said. I think how fast you implement something in tournament all depends on the difficulty of the tech you're trying to implement, and you. It took me so long to implement shield drops in tournament properly. I could do it consistently on my own, but I could just never seem to do it right in tournament. The thing is, I tried to use it for quite some time. Almost immediately after learning it, I was trying it. But I wasn't consistently trying it. Sometimes, that unconscious thing you speak of would prevent me from doing it. Same thing with a lot of ledge tech. But some things, like ledgedashing, I just started using immediately with no fear.
I watched a TED Talk recently where this guy talked about how extrinsic motivators, such as money, only seemed to actually have a positive effect on people's ability when they were doing straight-forward tasks that required no thought. But when thought was required for a task, these extrinsic motivators significantly hindered people. Studies have found that intrinsic motivation is the key to success when a task involves thought. When you think about this in the context of smash, it makes a lot of sense. A lot of people seem to talk about how they play better in friendlies and fall apart in tournament. People chalk it up as "nerves," or a lack of experience, but it's not always that straight forward.
I don't know about you or anyone else here, but I've played some of my best smash when I had absolutely no expectations of myself or motivation. I simply put all my thought into the game without a concern for how I would do. You can never truly separate yourself from these extrinsic motivators, such as the prize money and ego boost you'll get from doing well at a tournament or winning a money match. But I think there's a lot you can do to transform that motivation into a different form that is more practical in this game. I'm still teaching myself how to do this. Players like S2J and Lucky talk about how they never look at brackets in tournament. Maybe there's a reason for that carefree attitude. Deep down, I think these guys just have it figured out.
Sometimes, I have taken a break from grinding tech and come back to it weeks or months later with improved consistency somehow. Perhaps it's just that I thought about how the tech would look in tournament enough in that time span to the point it actually helped. But that might not work for everyone. As I said at the beginning of this post, people learn in different ways. I'm a tactile and auditory learner, so I need to grind and play people as much as possible. I really ****ed up this last year by not playing people as often as I should have. But as a hybrid type, I also learn a lot just from saying things to myself long enough or by listening to others. That's why I read these boards and post so often.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Oh and I have some footage to post here soon. I recorded myself at my last tournament. I'll be posting my sets with a Mr. Lemon, a really good Doc in my region, and a random Fox I threw a set away against. I'm starting to get the hang of the Doc matchup, but it's really weird. Everything else i have footage of is just me destroying randoms. I'd make some gifs, but it's cellphone footage so it would look weird lol. I'm going over everything myself first. So once I finish properly analyzing my videos, I'll put things up.
I'll also have some doubles footage after tonight. I'm going to the last local for our best tournament series yet in Boston. We're moving venues
NG+ has had a sick run. It's basically in the bar of a Japanese steak house. The TVs on the wall of the bar literally display the stream. Tonight's a doubles tournament, so I'll have some footage of me teaming with a Falcon. It's either going to go really well, or we're going to **** it up because we haven't teamed in a bit lol.
I'll also have some doubles footage after tonight. I'm going to the last local for our best tournament series yet in Boston. We're moving venues
NG+ has had a sick run. It's basically in the bar of a Japanese steak house. The TVs on the wall of the bar literally display the stream. Tonight's a doubles tournament, so I'll have some footage of me teaming with a Falcon. It's either going to go really well, or we're going to **** it up because we haven't teamed in a bit lol.Could you elaborate on transforming exterior motivation into interior motivation, and what's the difference between the two? I know you don't have it all figured out, but you probably have it more figured out than I do.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Bizz quit now i'm the last Flame standing
now i'm the last Flame standing
Diosama
Stand User
Press $ to pay respects
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
the worst part is, now @spider_sense is never gonna get to Yamm his ass
he said he will still play independently, just not as much.
So, I've noticed a trend in Kage's playstyle whenever he faces off against space animals. When he knocks them off he only sets up for the Bair edguard about half the time. Specifically on Yoshi's and Battlefild I've noticed him positioning Ganon away from the ledge (about the distance of a wavedash away) and he crouches. If the spacey tries to Illusion onto the stage he usually Dtilts or jabs depending on percentage (which usually leads to grab from the jab or Fair from the Dtilt). However, while covering that option of the SideB from the spacey I've noticed that his response to seeing Firefox is to jump and Fair with timing meant to intercept them midair. Even if that missed (due to the spacey angling firefox upwards) he will fall with an Uair or DJ Uair to catch them.
I was interested in this specific observation because I thought it might be more effective than what I am doing. Right now what I've been doing as Ganon is wavelanding and going into Bair mode immediately to cover a spacey's side B option, if they Firefox. Is what I saw Kage doing better? Or is it just more aggressive?
So, I've noticed a trend in Kage's playstyle whenever he faces off against space animals. When he knocks them off he only sets up for the Bair edguard about half the time. Specifically on Yoshi's and Battlefild I've noticed him positioning Ganon away from the ledge (about the distance of a wavedash away) and he crouches. If the spacey tries to Illusion onto the stage he usually Dtilts or jabs depending on percentage (which usually leads to grab from the jab or Fair from the Dtilt). However, while covering that option of the SideB from the spacey I've noticed that his response to seeing Firefox is to jump and Fair with timing meant to intercept them midair. Even if that missed (due to the spacey angling firefox upwards) he will fall with an Uair or DJ Uair to catch them.
I was interested in this specific observation because I thought it might be more effective than what I am doing. Right now what I've been doing as Ganon is wavelanding and going into Bair mode immediately to cover a spacey's side B option, if they Firefox. Is what I saw Kage doing better? Or is it just more aggressive?
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RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
X WaNtEd X
I think there is something that you bring up a lot in your response and a lot of what you said goes into what is called a "comfort zone". Keep in mind that there are some good points in your response, but the overall theme I got from your response was that "Everyone learns differently so everyone should do what is comfortable for them to get better." Even if this isn't exactly what you are saying, I still want to let you guys know that staying in your comfort zone is only going to hold you back as both a player and as a person. Think of how our muscles grow when we do exercise and lifts heavy weights. It hurts our arms and legs for a while after doing them, but in return you get muscle mass and increased strength. This is very similar to mental comfort zones because If you only stay in the bounds of your comfort zone, you will stagnate over time and this is how many people plateau. The comfort zone can be anywhere between "X tech makes me uncomfortable to perform" to "I don't want to play this top tier character because he's not comfortable to me."
The reason you want to go out of your comfort zone in this respect is so that you can see what your true potential is and challenge yourself on levels you never though of before. There's a bit of discipline to be learned when trying to venture out of your comfort zone, but I rarely see people try to do anything out of their comfort zone because they have convinced themselves that they will get better by staying in it. You are going to need to gout of your comfort zone to truly improve, and this can involve trying a better character for an extending period of time (Like what I'm doing with Falcon) or trying to be better with your practice, or hell, even going against what you believe in sometimes just to gain more knowledge about something so that you can learn from it and be a better person. There are definitely some things I'm still in my comfort zone about, but I'm willing to change those things for the better if I really need to, I just haven't found that to be the case or realized it yet. I'm trying to go out of my comfort zone for Melee because I've tried doing that for the past 2 and a half years and it has hardly gotten me anywhere. Always just following what I "felt was right" was a mistake I kept repeating for a long time and I wish I never thought like that in the first place, but I wouldn't be here today thinking like this if I never went through that.
It just doesn't make any sense to me that you practice tech for a few days and then take a break and then come back thinking your tech got better or something. I feel like you're under some illusion of that any anyone else who experiences that is just bull****ting themselves without realizing it. Consistency is key. You need to practice "practical tech" as a foundation to your overall tech that you need to know. It's like you're trying to build a house with just walls and a roof, but there's no foundation to support any of that. You gotta work from the ground up when it comes to this stuff and you have to be incredibly honest with yourself.
This video here is still pretty damn relevant to many players and it's a rude awakening for a lot of people but it's the truth of the matter.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
The TED Talk goes into this a bit, but it's pretty long. So I'll just give my explanation.
Extrinsic motivation occurs when you're motivated by external factors, like money, fame, rankings, etc. Intrinsic motivation occurs when you are motivated to do something simply because you want to do it. It's internal. It might be subconscious; you might not even realize what motivates you. It might be conscious. For example, you want to get better because you are happy when you play well. The main difference is extrinsic motivation is generally associated with a high drive, and intrinsic motivation is associated with a low drive.
So why is intrinsic motivation better? There's this experiment called the candle problem that took place around 1945. Participants were given a candle, a box of thumbtacks, and instructed to find a way to keep the candle from melting wax onto a table that was up against a wall. The solution looks like this.
One group was shown the box and the thumbtacks separately. Another group was shown the thumbtacks in the box. As you can imagine, most people did not initially come to this solution. Moreover, people in the group shown the thumbtacks in the box struggled more to find the solution. This is because humans have functional fixedness, or this belief that objects and tools should be used in a certain way. I see this relating to Melee, because it's very clear that many players have this problem. People don't think about all the different ways a move, technique, etc. could be used. But that's not even my main point.
A further study was conducted in 1962, in which people were timed in this task. The main difference was some people were offered money for being in the top 5% of subjects tested, whereas others were simply told they were being tested to determine if they wanted to use this in a later experiment. So in this case, the high drive subjects were the ones offered money, and the low drive subjects were the ones doing it for nothing. The high drive subjects are like smashers at a tournament -- many will enter, but only a small portion of the top placing players will walk away with cash. Surprisingly, the low drive subjects destroyed the high drive subjects and solved this problem much faster on average.
But why? The idea is that high drive can potentially slow you down, and stop good habits from forming. Kind of sound like Melee? If you have money, rankings, pride, or whatever on your mind, it can potentially cause you to narrow your vision and lose your creativity. To succeed in Melee, you can't afford to let this happen.
So how do you transition your incentives? As you say, I'm still figuring it out. But i have a few strategies. As silly as it sounds, I'm trying to find ways to enjoy the game more. The more I enjoy Melee, the more I'll enjoy it when I play well, which will further motivate me intrinsically. Second, I'm not looking at brackets or anything while I'm at tournament. In fact, I'm trying to think as little as possible about the next match until I'm there. I'm also not focused on winning, I'm focused on the experience. Outside the tournament, my goal is to win. But when I'm there, I can't be thinking like that. It will only hinder me. I'm basically trying to lower my drives as much as possible to maximize my results.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I said not everyone learns the same -- much different from everyone learns differently. The latter is misleading. My point about different learning styles was made to illustrate that many people learn in extremely similar ways. If this was the main theme you got from my post, you read it wrong. Playing to your strengths and expanding your comfort zone are not mutually exclusive, and in no way did I imply otherwise.
Yeah I agree to some extent. I think expanding your comfort zone is essential to improvement at some point. But a lot of people, myself included, do it too early. And others do it too late. By this, I mean that you can improve by doing whatever is comfortable to you and improving your consistency with it. But once you reach a certain level of consistency, you need to learn new tricks in order to improve at a noticeable rate again. It's just a question of how you balance comfort and consistency. A person with a really flexible comfort zone can potentially be a worse player than someone with an inflexible comfort zone.
Right...except, I practice tech by marking down how many times in-a-row I hit it. So I have numbers to back me up.
It's really not all that uncommon. I've met plenty of players with similar experiences. I think you need to be more open minded about this, because it's not bull **** at all. In fact, research suggests that there is a direct link between mental imagery and ability on perceptual and cognitive tasks.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org...ses/imagination-can-influence-perception.html
Basically, participants in this experiment were asked to imagine a particular pattern/image and rate how easy/vivid it was to them. They were then shown two patterns, one in each eye. One of the patterns shown was the one subjects were asked to remember. More often than not, subjects that claimed to be able to vividly imagine a particular pattern would only see that pattern amidst the two they were exposed to.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
You guys are ridiculous just play the game
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
**** was lukewarm.
Comments?
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
It seems a bit extra aggressive and would take a TON of experience to get the timing down so you don't ever flub the edgeguard. But it seems like it would be a better option if you can get those reads.
I'm personally a fan of lining up on the platform to waveland off and use whatever aerial is appropriate to intercept. NAIR IS ALMOST USEFUL THERE!
Kage's way would be EXCELLENT for intercepting the high up-B though...
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Kage has had a long time bad habit of using bair at ledge. The amount of sweespots he has let go unpunished is uncanny. He REALLY limits himself with the fade back fair too, when it's not being used with a read. Fair is horrible for edgeguarding spacies. You don't have to read their side-b. You can react if you have limited some of his options and maintain proper positioning (be it with uair, bair, jab, or ftilt). You also want to be ready for him to up-b too close to stage. You can often go out there and hit him before his up-b takes flight, so you want to be ready for this. The best way for most situations imo is shorthop, then uair or bair on reaction, and if he up-b's instead low ftilt him before he grabs ledge.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I think we can sum it up as high-risk, mediocre reward
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Lol I'm a psych major man. This stuff fascinates me.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Uhh but that sounds like exactly what I do lol.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
In that case wouldn't you have favored uair a little more vs sweetspots? It's only that you're making a decision too early. You've gotten better over the years, but you have you admit you often give players ledge for free with the bair. Just saying. And always remember that I am very critical of everyone. I describe my own play as horrible when it is lol.
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This is really notable because i'm terrible at edge guarding spacies
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Jab and low ftilt are for when you don't have time to position a shorthop properly, but unfortunately low ftilt doesn't hit sweetspot. Sometimes stomp is best too. I really like hitting dj sweetspots with it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
One more thing I do that I think it underused is dash fulljump offstage when you hit them out there. Similar to how you can cover a lot of options with offstage fair to dj uair (virtually all of us have gotten a kill on a spacey that way), but I will dash fulljump offstage somewhat preemptively, and by the time my fulljump is past its peak I'll be looking for either a ff uair to beat his side-b, or a ff dj uair to catch him as his up-b starts, depending on his options and spacing. In contrast to the fair to uair edgeguard, this method doesn't require as much of a commitment (the fair limits when you can uair, with this method you uair at will). It just requires good knowledge of the initial uair hitbox and the accuracy and confidence to beat the phantasm (and be ready to mc! lol).
I usually land this on the dj uair at the end. I think they expect fair so they wait, but you're just continuing after them, focusing on where they will be when they use their dj.
Edit: revised post.
I usually land this on the dj uair at the end. I think they expect fair so they wait, but you're just continuing after them, focusing on where they will be when they use their dj.
Edit: revised post.
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