Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Swagic]

I've been playing with nair as an approach from above as a mixup to dair. Seems to work occasionally just to throw off a lot of timings, since most of the people I play don't want to risk the usmash-dair trade and hide in shield. Nair when the sheild comes down, throws them off a bit. Not really a new thing, but an amusing mixup. The hitboxes being in weird places helps.

 

[Diosama]

What can I use to followup a dthrow against Sheik at the ledge? Around 80%. Practicing for a tournament on Saturday.

 

[Oldiz]

Bair comes to mind, and ftilt also sets up for edgeguards. Upsmash is probably the strongest option, but doesn't set up for an edgeguard directly. Sheik has a hard time getting down again, so punishing her landing with uair is really reliable.

 

[-ACE-]

Thinking about shield pressure on YS, rising nair to put both hits in his shield SPACED, shield drop uair to high ftilt.

Sheik at 80% you can fsmash full DI (try up-angled fsmash) and usmash no DI or DI up.

Also drop zone fair when she DI's away and offstage.

AAAAND. You never have to uair sheik above 70, fair her.

 

[F. Stein]

I didn't realize that shiek was easy Fair bait after 70%, that makes for a really tight game then.

So... stage dependent she really IS chain grab bait then. 0-70%+ on the chain grab then read her DI like you should have been doing for the last 30ish seconds. Or if you wanted to be a real fear factor you could chain her right up to the 90% limit that Magus has set in his thread and then go for Fair on full DI, Usmash on no Di and... I'm still just theorizing and learning so I'm guessing you could turn around Fair, fading Fair or smash turn Fsmash on Di behind? (correct me if wrong, unsure of best option maybe Bair)

I like playing against sheik more and more :D so much easier to CG than fox... FD here i come? lol

That full space Nair idea seems super tight Ace... what is the ideal situation to apply it in? or is it best used as a mix up/low percentage option?

 

[6VI6]

Damn, 12 hours no post.

Anyone been ****ing with untechable stomp?

Works on fox no DI at 18%, I think Falco and falcon at 19%. It's a little easier on falcon because of his weird tumble. On full DI it isn't possible until mid 20's. Kind of like whether you dthrow Marth on BF at 0-70% he'll always tech before you can uair him. Marth is easy to untechable stomp. Side-b often leads into it at 0%.

The untechable stomp is extremely demanding on timing, but is a way to eliminate techchasing, and thus all chance, and guarantee an edgeguard opportunity.

So if you stomp falco on FD when he's at like 12%, ave he doesn't DI, you can untechable stomp him, then he'll probably full DI. Of course when he full DI's you have to hit the L-cancel and dash in his direction immediately, but by doing full DI they've drastically increased the window for the untechable stomp, so you can untechable stomp them AGAIN (and then fair). As if stomp, stomp, fair wasn't good enough, stomp, stomp, stomp, fair is possible. They just have to miss the DI on the first one.

Once you get used to timing this stomp you'll be able to respond to visual cues much sooner that let you know it's possible. You can untechable stomp anyone on a platform. It's free 20% damage plus follow-up.

I've never heard anyone talk about this. Is https://youtu.be/90HYV5nt45s?t=210 what you mean?

Also appreciate how active this place is compared to the rest of Smashboards lol

 

[-ACE-]

One thing to know is that fsmash won't work 85-90%, it's an 80% thing. But it KO's. Above 85% though fair or bair usually give you a good edgeguard opportunity.

The nair scenario is just a way to put 4 heavy hits on their shield with very little chance for them to escape (spaced you shouldn't get punished). It's cool that you can hit people on the lower plat with high ftilt.

http://youtu.be/ab009ITuYJs?t=5m58s
^^ untechable stomp.

I'll make a video highlighting its uses sometime.

Go to training mode, or use an empty controller fox. When he's at 18%, stomp him late as possible and immediately SHFFL another dair asap. If he pops up on the second stomp, you got it. If you time it wrong the game reads your opponent as airborne and you just stomp him into the stage. Seems like that should hurt more than it does lmao.

 

[Waldoring]

Not the best quality, but this should show what's going on with the untechable stomp: https://gfycat.com/MammothUnknownCicada

I'm pretty sure that getting hit resets the tumbling animation, snapping the ECB to a different position in the process. For most of the tumble animation, this means making it taller and lower, but only slightly. As such, when done very close to the ground, the game will think that the player is standing rather than falling. For fastfallers, this is one frame, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much easier on certain characters.

For example, it's actually pretty easy to do on Marth, stomp at 0% -> untechable stomp takes a lot less effort, providing that he doesn't just jump out of it.

 

[6VI6]

Neat. If this is due to ECB properties, then this can done whenever someone tumbles (in hitstun) to the ground?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Feels good to have this photo back. **** the mods

Not the best quality, but this should show what's going on with the untechable stomp: https://gfycat.com/MammothUnknownCicada

I'm pretty sure that getting hit resets the tumbling animation, snapping the ECB to a different position in the process. For most of the tumble animation, this means making it taller and lower, but only slightly. As such, when done very close to the ground, the game will think that the player is standing rather than falling. For fastfallers, this is one frame, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much easier on certain characters.

For example, it's actually pretty easy to do on Marth, stomp at 0% -> untechable stomp takes a lot less effort, providing that he doesn't just jump out of it.

You're the man. Such sick information here, thanks for posting. -ACE- , much to nobody's surprise, called it once again. Tumble animation is the deciding factor here.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

If you're getting away with using nair in neutral against other people in Melee then they must really not be good at the game.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Where my dawg Renth at? Haven't heard from him

 

[Oldiz]

If you're getting away with using nair in neutral against other people in Melee then they must really not be good at the game.

The way I see it nair should either be used in combos, or when you have a read on the opponents position. The bad hitboxes makes it hard to hit, but it's both safer on shield and less laggy than uair. It's generally safer to land with a late nair than uair, and nair can often be more rewarding.

 

[-ACE-]

You know you can uair oos between marth sh fairs (2005 tipman technology)? What about nair? Should work, never seen it. It's only one frame slower. Should always land 2 hits if they aren't holding away.

Edit: uair having more range makes it more viable.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, I was just thinking about all the things we have to thank Tipman for.

-Uair oos between marth fairs
-Reverse WoP vs jiggs
-Roll to edge of BF lower plat, drop +hold away edge cancel
-Side-b off top BF plat +hold back, edge cancel on lower plat
-RL ****ing D
-ledgehop runoff dj bair onstage
-The ****ing Tipman spike
-ledgehop runoff dj platform waveland
-aerial side-b platform edge cancel

There are so many other things too. I'm drawing a blank.

 

[DCW]

So, does this untechable stomp work for other characters with meteor attacks that send grounded opponents up? For example, Samus' meteor spike. I've never heard of the technique outside Ganon boards, but then again, few characters other than Ganon could really benefit from it.

 

[-ACE-]

I only think Ganon can do it.

I think it's the only meteor with enough stun to completely overlap the tech opportunity.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I believe falcon can do it too, actually. Don't quote me on it though

 

[-ACE-]

Also, W Waldoring I second Joe's praise of your post. It didn't surprise me that against spacies it is a one frame window. I believe that is mostly due to their fall speed. Marth's crazy floatiness makes it easier in addition to the tumble imo. I have done the untechable stomp on both marth and peach at 0% (NO DI), but I don't know if it's guaranteed.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, side-b --> untechable stomp is a good setup vs marth at 0% and it's pretty easy; just follow their DI and stomp asap. Pretty much guaranteed OP stomp. What are your setups for peach, Dave? Stomp --> untechable stomp?

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, it has potential at 0% and only 0% unless she DI's fully and that will probably only buy 2%.

What's good, is that against fastfallers, (think fd) you can stomp them anywhere from 20-35, and if they DI the second one, which most people will, it increases the window of opportunity for the untechable stomp. If they don't DI I think it ends around 40.

 

[Waldoring]

Tech opportunity is 20 frames, Ganon's dair has 15 frames of hitstun. I'm pretty sure that the ECB stuff is the reason why it's untechable, not the amount of hitstun. That makes sense, considering that the ECB explanation doesn't actually involve the player "hitting" a wall/floor, so there isn't even an opportunity to tech.

However, SDI down + tech works the same as it does against grounded stomps, so it isn't truly "untechable."

Also, in terms of other characters that can do it, I would assume that every move can perform the tech itself (hitting 1 frame before landing such that knockback applies as though the player is on the ground). Ganon's dair is the only move that has enough hitstun to set up for itself that I can think of, however.

So far, I've confirmed that Falcon's dair works as well.

 

[-ACE-]

W Waldoring I don't mean the buffer window for a tech, I mean the actual tech itself is overlapped (opportunity for it to happen).

SDI down into the floor makes it 100% impossible to tech in all situations. ASDI works and that's it, but not against this.

 

[Waldoring]

-ACE- Ah, I see. Also, it makes sense that ASDI wouldn't work; good point.

 

[Diosama]

Damn, this thread is 7 years old

 

[-ACE-]

MAH N***A

 

[Diosama]

Posted the Dair KO % in the Ganon R&D fb group. Still can't believe how early it kills Jiggs, should looks for ko percents against other lightweights like Pikachu and ICs

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

what is a better option between single jump waveland off plat or dj waveland off plat, I prefer Single jump, cause If they whack Ganon's big black ass after he Dj it's curtains for yo boy.

 

[Diosama]

Single jump if they're close to you since you might get hit, otherwise it really doesn't matter. I prefer dj since it's easier

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

No Weather Report or Pucci? Just Jolyne

 

[X WaNtEd X]

All this untechable stomp talk is making me want to lab it up again. Really useful information. We could optimize a lot of reliable stomp combos at certain percents in certain relevant matchups.

The real question here is what would yall do AFTER untechable stomp?

If you're getting away with using nair in neutral against other people in Melee then they must really not be good at the game.

I'd like to be more open to what nair can be used for. Adding on to what ACE said, the tradeoff between uair and nair between Marth's double fair is that uair is easier to land, but nair will put Marth in a worse position at lower and medium percents, assuming they don't DI it well.

I also like the idea of using it as platform shield pressure. It ACs on a number of stages, allowing you to do a number of viable mixups.

 

[DCW]

I single jump on BF, Yoshis, FoD, and PK since it makes minimal difference in speed, at least to my eyes. It does make a difference on Dreamland, however. The full hop waveland is soooo sloooow. The dj WL (and the backwards full hop WL) are much faster. So I dj WL on Dreamland. I started doing it when I realized that's how Linguini was getting to the DL platforms so quickly in a set I was watching.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

what is a better option between single jump waveland off plat or dj waveland off plat, I prefer Single jump, cause If they whack Ganon's big black *** after he Dj it's curtains for yo boy.

True, but if you're far enough away, you don't have to worry about that. So, do single jump when there's a chance you'll get hit, and double jump when you're just trying to move to the other side of the stage quick.

 

[F. Stein]

It seems to make sense using Nair as shield pressure. If we want to advance the game we have to find new uses for things. I'll wait for more info on that and this untechable Dair before adding to my playbook doc.

I hate mobile autocorrect

 

[DCW]

I also like the idea of using it as platform shield pressure. It ACs on a number of stages, allowing you to do a number of viable mixups.

On which stages' platforms does nair autocancel? Sounds useful.

 

[-ACE-]

Backwards jump plat wL. Fast af. Maybe not fast as dj wL on DL. But just like you NIL with it, you can wL much sooner than normal jump.

 

[Oldiz]

On which stages' platforms does nair autocancel? Sounds useful.

On BF, YS, PS and som heights on FoD. If the platform is too high for full hop AC, you can DJ nair to AC it at the lower platforms.

 

[-ACE-]

The real question here is what would yall do AFTER untechable stomp?

I know twice I've hit porkchops with a stomp at the center of FD when he's at upper 20s, and he didn't DI, so I did untechable stomp (he DI's the second stomp, probably because he was trying to techroll bc who expects to get popped up again?), and then fair, and hit his phantasm with uair ftw. stomp, stomp, fair is 59% fresh LOL so it essentially puts them at 90% after the fair if you stomp them around 30%. Truth is, I could have untechable stomped AGAIN because he DI'd. definitely if the first one is at mid20s. You just have to get the dair late and dash fast af to follow their DI.

This is something kinda like the cg, where unless you have the timing down, you'd definitely want to just grab instead. But I actually think this is an optimal punish in many situations regarding fastfallers. Falcon gets straight booty blasted by untechable stomp.

I've hit marth and peach at 0% with it (1% won't work I'm certain) but not sure if guaranteed. When they miss the DI on a fresh dair. I'm certain a pal dair or a slightly staled dair would make it guaranteed.

Sheik it's guaranteed like 0-2% but obviously just GRAB lmao

Side-b to untechable stomp works on marth and Ganon at 0%, DI dependent.

There are other setups I can't think of right now, and others I haven't discovered. I have landed it randomly quite a bit, since after practicing it so much I can quickly realize when it's possible and go for it, as I know what to look for.

You can practice with visual cues just by stomping an uncontrolled falcon repeatedly and trying to pop him back up each time, timing the stomp hitbox for as soon as he lands, during the 2 frame window (guess) that you have before the game reads him as airborne again (when he bounces).

Edit: I've also hit luigi at super low%, first stomp on stage, untechable stomp on platform.

 

[tm]

What can I use to followup a dthrow against Sheik at the ledge? Around 80%. Practicing for a tournament on Saturday.

If they DI offstage, you can dropzone instant fair them. They'll be able to jump out if the % gets too high, maybe 85 or 90 so just short hop fair at that point.
No DI you can upsmash, fsmash, or bair / fair them offstage.
Behind DI you should regrab if possible because bair won't kill them at this positioning.
If behind DI causes a platform techchase, you can probably uair everything on reaction (guaranteed most of the time but easily survival DI'd) or do an option coverage between fair (if done right, covers no tech, tech in place, and sometimes a roll direction. maybe even both on PS / YS) and land on platform -> grab (covers roll either way, and a bunch of other stuff if they are bad like tech in place then shield). The fair still won't kill unless you're on yoshi's, but at least you might actually be able to start an edgeguard from it. The grab on platform at this percent should always lead into a kill.

The really hard part is deciding between all the different options in time.

One thing to know is that fsmash won't work 85-90%, it's an 80% thing.

That's not true. In fact it can hit a bit higher than grab and the spacing is more lenient. It's actually more forgiving than the regrab at those %s

 

[-ACE-]

If behind DI causes a platform techchase, you can probably uair everything on reaction

True, and it's good to add that if you're facing toward center stage, if they tech or techroll to the outer part of the lower plat, the uair will send them offstage and down some. Better than facing toward ledge imo.

That's not true. In fact it can hit a bit higher than grab and the spacing is more lenient. It's actually more forgiving than the regrab at those %

Disagree. I've whiffed way too many fsmashes around 88-90 (before throw - I do my percents like magus did with his cg thread). Maybe if you're getting the up-angled fsmash, but it's nowhere near as consistent as dthrowing sheik at 80-82%.

Easy test on level 1 cpu, iirc DI behind was the one I'd whiff on.