Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

@PseudoTurtle Couldn't of said it better myself.

RedmanSSBM I disagree. Ganon can land legit offensive grabs in neutral. Although it goes without saying that he gets grabs from a defensive position more often than not.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, sneaky dd +jc grab, foxtrot into dash pivot grab, hard read on approach wd back +grab or dash +jc grab, etc. **** like that can definitely work on fox although it's not always easy.

 

[tm]

I was looking for the frame inputs for a perfect one on all the stages
Such as the inputs (djing, holding forward, airdodge) and what frames they should be inputted
I was planning on using 20XX frame counter to train
Wondering if someone posted data on his before

not really worth doing IMO because the frame windows of later inputs depends on how frame perfect you were for earlier inputs. None of it is 1 frame only though. I think you have 2 or 3 frames for the jump after falling, and 2 or 3 frames for the waveland most of the time.

 

[-ACE-]

Got a silver controller used in good condition, this thing shield drops and back dashes like a champ. $17 ebay

Thing has a ****ed up plug. It's a very tight fit into the cube, and the controller went out once and I had to wiggle the plug a tiny bit for it to come back on. But still, this thing has a dope stick box.

Either I'm really lucky or new controllers are pretty ****ing good lol

 

[F. Stein]

I'd agree, the new Sm4sh controller that I got has done really well. I've been able to shield drop and DD into JC grab much easier than I ever could with my silver controllers but that's probably due to wear. Only problem I've had was my Z button sticking half a dozen times to make me powershield but that hasn't happened in two weeks.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

The thing about Ganon getting an "offensive grab" in neutral is that it is more of a read than it is of you purely reacting to what your opponent can do. This is directly related to how fast both Falcon and Ganon can move in an instant when they're reactions are being tests. Falcon can just watch the opponent and move out of the way and back in really quickly and not have to worry too much about the opponent's range. He's often very safe at most distances unless he just runs in to people's moves.

Because Ganon is so slow, doing this "reaction" in neutral is much harder, and you have to put yourself in a position where you can have some leniency, where Falcon doesn't really need the leniency too much. You either have to have insane reaction times or you have to make tiny reads in neutral in order to get a grab with Ganon in this way. Ganon has to already be moving out of the way if a Falco is FH dairing him from above in order to get out of the way, but Falcon can just see what the Falco is going to do and just dash out of the way no problem. I have definitely come to know this the several times that I have reacted to a space animal or whoever in neutral and tried to get out of the way, but then I get hit and I'm like "Dammit Ganon you're too slow!"

Wavedashing can make up for this in part, and it helps a lot if you make the wavedashes perfect. It's important to remember to dash for at least one frame before you wavedash so that during your jumpsquat frames you are moving and not standing completely still. Falcon doesn't really need to wavedash to get out of the way of a Falco dair, but Ganon definitely probably does and he can then rush in and get a JC grab, but you have to be careful about this cause if you are reacting to Falco getting out of his l-cancel lag, you'll get spot-dodge shined really easily. You gotta look for small reactionary cues for when you need to react and move your character to do something so that you don't waste time. So if you want to punish Falco's dair, you need to focus on where his feet are going to land, and it's almost always a little farther in the direction he is facing than you originally thought. You need to act just before he lands so that by the time your grab hitbox comes out, he is still in l-cancel lag and you won't get shined. This is kind of what I mean by making tiny reads but I believe if you get these reactionary cues down, you'll be doing more reacting instead of reading, which is huge for Ganon.

I remember at Apex 2014 when Wobbles told me about how Taj would react to Marth's fsmash and spot-dodge it because Tajk was looking for the little flash that happens in front of Marth in the first few frames of his Fsmash. If you react to this instead of Marth actually having his sword above his head, you are reacting 6-10 frames faster because of that cue, giving you a bit more time to position yourself and punish. These cues can range anywhere from a flash to a sound cue, and those cues usually happen on the first few frames of the move.

 

[-ACE-]

Imo smash turn jc grab is fast af. I don't read fox when I'm chaingrabbing, I react. Similar reaction time can get you grabs in neutral. Proper zoning/respecting his approach is more the read, grab is the punish.

 

[F. Stein]

How best to practice/learn to chain grab fox and falco to death?

Up to this point my grabs have only been one or two regrabs and I'd like to focus on them now so that when I land that grab on a falco during the first stock of our set it becomes a kill and demoralizes him off the bat. Are there any videos or training methods that I can use to learn this on my own?

Guess that's more directed -ACE- than anyone else but any input is helpful. CG to death should be enough to make the local falco respect ganon's space a bit more I think.

 

[Diosama]

How best to practice/learn to chain grab fox and falco to death?

Up to this point my grabs have only been one or two regrabs and I'd like to focus on them now so that when I land that grab on a falco during the first stock of our set it becomes a kill and demoralizes him off the bat. Are there any videos or training methods that I can use to learn this on my own?

Guess that's more directed -ACE- than anyone else but any input is helpful. CG to death should be enough to make the local falco respect ganon's space a bit more I think.

Focus on Ganon and use your peripheral vision to read their DI. Not much else to say besides being quick.

CG at low % is good but I prefer to do it at higher %, around 90, where it's easier to regrab. I'd rather dthrow > jab or upthrow > ftilt. Both eventually lead to a dair if they miss a tech after being knocked down

 

[-ACE-]

I have been practicing this cg somewhat regularly (and sometimes heavily) since the magus thread was created. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone in the world has practiced it more than I have.

You have to fully understand fox's/falco's options and know some specifics.

I rarely cg a spacey under 50%. Occasionally I can start it under 50% (falco) but that first regrab is pretty tough to land consistently.

At low percents, you don't need to dash back or jc grab DI behind. You can turnaround grab falco's DI behind until low 60's, then get one more regrab as long as you smash turn (so you can technically go 67% or so and regrab DI behind without dashing, but it could be safer to back dash jc grab starting at 65%). Smash turn grab by very quickly moving the stick about 40% of the way to the gate and go immediately back to neutral and hit Z immediately. You can do the same to fox, start back dash +jc grabbing his DI just before 70%.

At the low percents, since turnaround grab will suffice for full DI behind, you don't have to worry about distinguishing between full and partial DI behind; the grab covers both options. By the time you have to start immediately back dashing into jc grab to catch full DI behind, you will still have to simply turnaround grab the slight behind DI.

^^This is what I have the most trouble with. If they DI away instead during this 65-75% area, I've got them. By the time they are at 80% I should catch DI behind every time. But if they're PROPERLY testing my DI behind regrab skills during this crucial point, I'm likely to drop the cg (good point to think of option select situations).

From a very low% on, full DI away requires that you dash +jc grab to get the regrab.

Uthrow is your way of making the cg easier. Around 50-90% is where you can regrab fastfallers that DI your uthrow behind. In fact you regrab them off basically any DI but full away. This is why I trap spacies into either DI'ing behind and getting regrabbed, or DI'ing forward and teching on a plat, so I can uair them offstage and edgeguard them (ez$ lol).

Uthrow obviously can be used for a read, if you REALLY think they're going to DI behind. Decisions like this have to be made on FD, and sometimes DL64 (heavy chaingrabbing stage). You'll see patterns soon in not just the people you play but people in general. You can develop a 6th sense for how much respect to give their decision making. I tell myself things like "aight, this guy thinks he's smart, he's familiar with DI and he's frustrated. This is the second time im chaingrabbing him, I just regrabbed his DI away, he's probably going behind next" it's hard to explain. Sometimes it's worth trying this uthrow trick if you're not confident in getting the regrab with dthrow (or if you're chaingrabbing CF lol), but it may also be better to techchase. Every situation is different.

Once you have someone up to 110% and close to ledge, ftilt them offstage. If they are DI'ing your throws so that they maintain center stage, keep chaingrabbing. But I don't cg past like 135%. I don't know what it is but I cannot get full DI behind around 150-170% or some **** (not that it really matters), I honestly think it might not be possible. If someone chaingrabs a level 1 fox 34-250% I'll stand corrected. You want to kill them sooner than that. At 130-145% dthrow to wizkick any DI except full behind. And at this percent, a very fast bair should body his DI behind.

There are various option select situations to memorize regarding percent, his DI options, and location of ledge and plats. But that honestly goes for any grab punish.

 

[-ACE-]

20GT testing.

VS SHEIK***** FRESH (22%) DAIR KO PERCENTAGES

NO DI******
PS: 87
BF: 93
FD: 89
YS: 83
DL: 106
FoD: 93 (yep, same as BF!)

Sideways DI buys them as much as 5% more survivability (initial damage-wise) on the tall stages (NEVERMIND... FORGOT ABOUT DL64, it's probably like 113-114%). So on BF, if they DI fully (regardless of whether or not they get an additional sideways SDI input as well), they will live at 97% and die at 98% instead of living at 92% and dying at 93%. In contrast, on PS, 87% is the lowest KO percent for no DI, and side DI begins killing at 90. I didn't test, but I can only guess than on YS good DI only buys them 2 more percent.

On PS (only stage I tested, I'm about over this **** LOL), if sheik is crouching, dair won't kill until 162%, just to give you an idea of the power of crouch lol.

Nothing but ASDI down sometimes buys them a percent but sometimes nothing at all (YS).

Oh, and the slant on YS buys her 1%. So 86% if she's there and holding away.

I never really thought of the dair KO potential on PS being so close to YS.

 

[-ACE-]

Also, one great reason not to chaingrab from 40-upper40's, aside from the insane difficulty and the potential catastrophic consequences for missing a regrab (lmfao, as if you needed another reason) is that this is perfect for dthrow to jab, where the jab will cause knockdown AND prevent their tech, which often guarantees a dair. If you time the dair right you'll pop him up, fair him, and get an edgeguard opportunity. 2007 technology at it's best. Below 30%, there's MOC (multiple option coverage) and of course hard reads. And at 0% don't forget dthrow, jab, dash jc grab, dthrow, jab, dash jc grab, dthrow, jab (knocks him down), well timed dair pop up, fair can REALLY surprise him.
http://youtu.be/ZlwlvUyKSII?t=3m30s

Remember this when you're thinking about strategies. When you think "won't they adapt to that and it won't work any more?", it's totally different at a national. Realistically you get put in a pool with at most 2 people that know how to play well vs Ganon, and they know nothing of your style. Some gimmicks are more gimmicky than others. Lots of stuff can work well, and could easily be the difference between whether or not you make it out of pools. Just thought I'd say that for the newer guys/skilled players that have yet to travel.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Won't the jab only prevent their tech if they try to tech the chaingrab? I feel like sheiks are usually trying to jump out at those late percents rather than tech. And if they're doing that, then they'll be able to react to your jab that knocks them down in time to tech it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Also -ACE- that post was what I was looking for a few months ago when I asked about optimizing punishes on Sheik without the cg. The responses I got were pretty much "don't be a ***** and just cg" lol

 

[-ACE-]

I want to do spacies too. I lost motivation today lol.

X WaNtEd X only the middle post is about sheik specifically. The other 2, fastfallers/spacies.

And at 40ish percent they aren't usually expecting the cg.

 

[Swagic]

So I was looking at the frame data for moves and hitboxes and such (again), and I noticed something-

Does the side-B hitbox really continue if you miss on the ground until Ganon stands up?

 

[-ACE-]

So I was looking at the frame data for moves and hitboxes and such (again), and I noticed something-

Does the side-B hitbox really continue if you miss on the ground until Ganon stands up?

Yeah, that's how you cover no tech, tech in place, and techroll away in one whack. Input side-b as soon as they land. Falco and CF you need to be almost on top of them to cover techroll.

 

[DCW]

How best to practice/learn to chain grab fox and falco to death?

Up to this point my grabs have only been one or two regrabs and I'd like to focus on them now so that when I land that grab on a falco during the first stock of our set it becomes a kill and demoralizes him off the bat. Are there any videos or training methods that I can use to learn this on my own?

Guess that's more directed -ACE- than anyone else but any input is helpful. CG to death should be enough to make the local falco respect ganon's space a bit more I think.

I've been wanting to write up my advice on this topic for a while, so here it is. This is how I practice, not necessarily the best way possible. For discussion: does anyone else have any improvements/suggestions for this method?

Spoiler: How to Learn the Chaingrab

Learning the Chaingrab

First, read all of Magus' post. The missing videos are here and here. Pay special attention to the percent ranges at which your regrab method has to change for a given DI by a space animal, like when Fox reaches 65% damage and you start start jump-cancel grabbing Fox's away DI instead of just regrabbing. Those are the numbers you'll need to keep in your mind while executing the chaingrab. Thankfully, Magus has done the hard work of finding these numbers for us; see the end of his post for these.

The next step is to start practicing regrabbing a fixed DI at varying percents. The most important percents to focus on are those transitional ones I just mentioned where a new method becomes necessary, since these are the situations where the frame windows are smallest and you are most likely to mess up. For instance, I would fix Fox's DI as full away and his perfect at 65% to practice the jc regrab since that's a transition percent. Every regrab is as hard or harder than these transition scenarios, so if you can do them, you can do anything. That's why I recommend you prioritize practicing them.

I go into Training Mode to practice each DI:

• No DI: Set CPU on "Stand" and go for it!

• Full Behind and Slight Behind DI: put your CPU in "Attack" mode. The CPU will DI slight behind on the first downthrow and DI full behind on every subsequent downthrow. Regrab becomes possible at 12% for Falco and 34% for Fox. JC grabs become necessary at 66% and 71%, respectively. (All of this info is in Magus' thread.) Therefore you should set your CPU's damage at one of these key values and practice till you can get the regrab at that percent over and over again. This DI is the one that will take the most time grinding, IMO.

• Full Away DI: Set the CPU on "Evade." If you can ever grab him, he'll full DI away. Personally, I can't catch him (lol) so I just practice full behind DI, since it's the same thing except one frame harder. I know if I can do full behind, I can do full away.

• Slight Away DI: I don't know of a way to practice this, actually, but all you ever need to do is regrab, much like no DI, so it's no big deal.

As you practice, you'll find that the hardest DI to cover is full behind DI, which requires either turning and grabbing or smash turning and jc grabbing, depending on the percent. This DI is harder to cover because it takes 1 frame to turn around, and thus your reaction window, which is already small for away DIs, gets even smaller for the behind DIs. Another reason for the difficulty of regrabbing full DI behind is that smash turns in Melee are finicky. If you don't get the control stick from its neutral position to the smash turn zone of the controller in a single frame, it will trigger a slower non-smash turn that isn't fast enough and will be cancelled by your jump. The result will be that you input smash left and jc grab, but on the screen Ganon will just grab facing his old direction. It's silly, but that's Melee for you. For the full details on this phenomenon see Magus' posts at the end of the page 2 of his chaingrab thread and Kadano's article on smash turns. I also recommend going in 20XX and doing the inputs frame by frame to get a feel for what I'm talking about. Try tilting the stick less than all the wayand watch the painfully slow turn-around animation be cancelled by your jump. Then try it again with a full left or right tilt of the control stick on frame one, and see the difference.

Becoming consistent with regrabs for a predetermined DI will take time and patience. Once you've achieved that, you're ready for the next step: random DI. Before, you fixed the DI and varied the percent. Now, you'll fix the percent and vary the DI. Before you were working on technique. Now you're working on reaction: responding to a visual cue with the proper technique.

To practice random DI, you'll need either a friend willing to randomly DI for long stretches of time, or 20XX. Most of my friends aren't willing to do that, so that left me with 20XX. This is the best way to practice the chaingrab anyway, since its randomness mirrors the unpredictability of a human perfectly. In fact it's better than practicing with a friend, since your friend will have DI habits that your other opponents may not have. Playing your friend prepares you for people with DI no better than your friend's; random DI prepares you for anything. In short, it's worth the trouble to get 20XX solely for this feature! Here's a video to get you started.

Once you have 20XX on, go to Training Mode and set the CPU percent to the range you want to work on, whether its lower percent beginnings, mid percent transitions, or high percents where you can practice ending the chaingrab. Using the save state feature or just the pause button like in normal Training Modee, you can return to the initial percent whenever you mess up. Eventually you can start pasting these practice segments together in attempts for a true "0 to death" (really 12% and 34% to death) chaingrab. The first time you make it all the way, it feels so awesome! If you miss a regrab you can reset to the beginning or keep going, whichever you feel is more useful. Because 20XX CPUs tech randomly, you can also take this as an opportunity to learn how to follow up a missed grab as best you can. Because when you implement this versus real people, realistically you'll mess it up sometimes.

And that's it. You just keep practicing these two types of exercises in normal Melee and 20XX, and start implementing the technique in friendlies and tournament matches. If you find that you keep missing the regrab for a certain DI (usually full behind), then use the exercises in the first part of this post (fix the DI and vary the percent) to improve your technique. If your technique is correct but your aren't reacting fast enough, use the second set of exercises (fix the percent and vary the DI) to practice reaction. This method will allow you to practice both technique and reaction, the two components of a successful chain grab.

My parting advice is to be patient with this process. The chaingrab is hard and takes a long time to practice. However, I assure you it is possible. I've gotten KOs from low percent grabs in practice, friendlies, and in tournament. Here's a post by tm verifying its feasibility, and I have gotten the same results when I tested it frame by frame:

At the lowest %s you only have 15 or 16 frames to recognize the DI from the first frame of release, then frame perfect regrab. Very difficult but humanly possible.

Add me to the church of chaingrab. If a really good player knows ganon well enough, they can react to uthrow and DI away. Going to platform can almost always force a 50/50, or alternatively a guaranteed uair / ftilt / dtilt, all of which are non-lethal unless at super high %. Even spacies can take an uthrow bair at high % and recover easily if they DI well. The CG is basically the only punish ganon has on sheik / fox / falco that gives them 0% chance to live if we don't mess up (assuming they don't land on a plat)

Starting with the hardest chaingrab in the game is a daunting task, but the process I've described will work with any chaingrab Ganon has! So, if you reach a mental block for a while and are tired of practicing the spacie chaingrab, I recommend you learn the chaingrab for another character. I especially recommend Sheik, since more than anyone else, Sheik deserves it! Every other character you try will be easy to chaingrab once you've spent some time on Fox and Falco. In this way, practicing the spacie chaingrab indirectly makes you better at every other chaingrab Ganon has.

I'll part with a quote from DruggedFox about techchasing with Sheik. I find it inspiring, and I believe the same mentality should be applied to Ganon's chaingrabs:

The last thing I will say is that my experience with tech chasing leads me to believe that discipline is one of the most important parts of this. People ask me how I got so good at it (even though I drop like half my tech chases in tournament LOL) or whether or not I would tech chase in a last stock situation where if I drop it I will die...the answer is yes, I will. The reason I'm better at it than everyone else is because I'm more committed to it; I'm willing to lose trying my best to do it, in hopes that I will eventually not mess it up. I've probably been tech in place shined more times than anyone in the entire history of the game, and that's not an exaggeration.
​

Good luck!

Should I make a thread of this? I hate how so much info is buried in 600 pages of the main thread.

 

[Swagic]

I've been wanting to write up my advice on this topic for a while, so here it is. This is how I practice, not necessarily the best way possible. For discussion: does anyone else have any improvements/suggestions for this method?

Spoiler: How to Learn the Chaingrab

Learning the Chaingrab

First, read all of Magus' post. The missing videos are here and here. Pay special attention to the percent ranges at which your regrab method has to change for a given DI by a space animal, like when Fox reaches 65% damage and you start start jump-cancel grabbing Fox's away DI instead of just regrabbing. Those are the numbers you'll need to keep in your mind while executing the chaingrab. Thankfully, Magus has done the hard work of finding these numbers for us; see the end of his post for these.

The next step is to start practicing regrabbing a fixed DI at varying percents. The most important percents to focus on are those transitional ones I just mentioned where a new method becomes necessary, since these are the situations where the frame windows are smallest and you are most likely to mess up. For instance, I would fix Fox's DI as full away and his perfect at 65% to practice the jc regrab since that's a transition percent. Every regrab is as hard or harder than these transition scenarios, so if you can do them, you can do anything. That's why I recommend you prioritize practicing them.

I go into Training Mode to practice each DI:

• No DI: Set CPU on "Stand" and go for it!

• Full Behind and Slight Behind DI: put your CPU in "Attack" mode. The CPU will DI slight behind on the first downthrow and DI full behind on every subsequent downthrow. Regrab becomes possible at 12% for Falco and 34% for Fox. JC grabs become necessary at 66% and 71%, respectively. (All of this info is in Magus' thread.) Therefore you should set your CPU's damage at one of these key values and practice till you can get the regrab at that percent over and over again. This DI is the one that will take the most time grinding, IMO.

• Full Away DI: Set the CPU on "Evade." If you can ever grab him, he'll full DI away. Personally, I can't catch him (lol) so I just practice full behind DI, since it's the same thing except one frame harder. I know if I can do full behind, I can do full away.

• Slight Away DI: I don't know of a way to practice this, actually, but all you ever need to do is regrab, much like no DI, so it's no big deal.

As you practice, you'll find that the hardest DI to cover is full behind DI, which requires either turning and grabbing or smash turning and jc grabbing, depending on the percent. This DI is harder to cover because it takes 1 frame to turn around, and thus your reaction window, which is already small for away DIs, gets even smaller for the behind DIs. Another reason for the difficulty of regrabbing full DI behind is that smash turns in Melee are finicky. If you don't get the control stick from its neutral position to the smash turn zone of the controller in a single frame, it will trigger a slower non-smash turn that isn't fast enough and will be cancelled by your jump. The result will be that you input smash left and jc grab, but on the screen Ganon will just grab facing his old direction. It's silly, but that's Melee for you. For the full details on this phenomenon see Magus' posts at the end of the page 2 of his chaingrab thread and Kadano's article on smash turns. I also recommend going in 20XX and doing the inputs frame by frame to get a feel for what I'm talking about. Try tilting the stick less than all the wayand watch the painfully slow turn-around animation be cancelled by your jump. Then try it again with a full left or right tilt of the control stick on frame one, and see the difference.

Becoming consistent with regrabs for a predetermined DI will take time and patience. Once you've achieved that, you're ready for the next step: random DI. Before, you fixed the DI and varied the percent. Now, you'll fix the percent and vary the DI. Before you were working on technique. Now you're working on reaction: responding to a visual cue with the proper technique.

To practice random DI, you'll need either a friend willing to randomly DI for long stretches of time, or 20XX. Most of my friends aren't willing to do that, so that left me with 20XX. This is the best way to practice the chaingrab anyway, since its randomness mirrors the unpredictability of a human perfectly. In fact it's better than practicing with a friend, since your friend will have DI habits that your other opponents may not have. Playing your friend prepares you for people with DI no better than your friend's; random DI prepares you for anything. In short, it's worth the trouble to get 20XX solely for this feature! Here's a video to get you started.

Once you have 20XX on, go to Training Mode and set the CPU percent to the range you want to work on, whether its lower percent beginnings, mid percent transitions, or high percents where you can practice ending the chaingrab. Using the save state feature or just the pause button like in normal Training Modee, you can return to the initial percent whenever you mess up. Eventually you can start pasting these practice segments together in attempts for a true "0 to death" (really 12% and 34% to death) chaingrab. The first time you make it all the way, it feels so awesome! If you miss a regrab you can reset to the beginning or keep going, whichever you feel is more useful. Because 20XX CPUs tech randomly, you can also take this as an opportunity to learn how to follow up a missed grab as best you can. Because when you implement this versus real people, realistically you'll mess it up sometimes.

And that's it. You just keep practicing these two types of exercises in normal Melee and 20XX, and start implementing the technique in friendlies and tournament matches. If you find that you keep missing the regrab for a certain DI (usually full behind), then use the exercises in the first part of this post (fix the DI and vary the percent) to improve your technique. If your technique is correct but your aren't reacting fast enough, use the second set of exercises (fix the percent and vary the DI) to practice reaction. This method will allow you to practice both technique and reaction, the two components of a successful chain grab.

My parting advice is to be patient with this process. The chaingrab is hard and takes a long time to practice. However, I assure you it is possible. I've gotten KOs from low percent grabs in practice, friendlies, and in tournament. Here's a post by tm verifying its feasibility, and I have gotten the same results when I tested it frame by frame:



Starting with the hardest chaingrab in the game is a daunting task, but the process I've described will work with any chaingrab Ganon has! So, if you reach a mental block for a while and are tired of practicing the spacie chaingrab, I recommend you learn the chaingrab for another character. I especially recommend Sheik, since more than anyone else, Sheik deserves it! Every other character you try will be easy to chaingrab once you've spent some time on Fox and Falco. In this way, practicing the spacie chaingrab indirectly makes you better at every other chaingrab Ganon has.

I'll part with a quote from DruggedFox about techchasing with Sheik. I find it inspiring, and I believe the same mentality should be applied to Ganon's chaingrabs:

The last thing I will say is that my experience with tech chasing leads me to believe that discipline is one of the most important parts of this. People ask me how I got so good at it (even though I drop like half my tech chases in tournament LOL) or whether or not I would tech chase in a last stock situation where if I drop it I will die...the answer is yes, I will. The reason I'm better at it than everyone else is because I'm more committed to it; I'm willing to lose trying my best to do it, in hopes that I will eventually not mess it up. I've probably been tech in place shined more times than anyone in the entire history of the game, and that's not an exaggeration.
​

Good luck!

Should I make a thread of this? I hate how so much info is buried in 600 pages of the main thread.

Yes please.

 

[tm]

I have been practicing this cg somewhat regularly (and sometimes heavily) since the magus thread was created. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone in the world has practiced it more than I have.

You have to fully understand fox's/falco's options and know some specifics.

I rarely cg a spacey under 50%. Occasionally I can start it under 50% (falco) but that first regrab is pretty tough to land consistently.

At low percents, you don't need to dash back or jc grab DI behind. You can turnaround grab falco's DI behind until low 60's, then get one more regrab as long as you smash turn (so you can technically go 67% or so and regrab DI behind without dashing, but it could be safer to back dash jc grab starting at 65%). Smash turn grab by very quickly moving the stick about 40% of the way to the gate and go immediately back to neutral and hit Z immediately. You can do the same to fox, start back dash +jc grabbing his DI just before 70%.

At the low percents, since turnaround grab will suffice for full DI behind, you don't have to worry about distinguishing between full and partial DI behind; the grab covers both options. By the time you have to start immediately back dashing into jc grab to catch full DI behind, you will still have to simply turnaround grab the slight behind DI.

^^This is what I have the most trouble with. If they DI away instead during this 65-75% area, I've got them. By the time they are at 80% I should catch DI behind every time. But if they're PROPERLY testing my DI behind regrab skills during this crucial point, I'm likely to drop the cg (good point to think of option select situations).

From a very low% on, full DI away requires that you dash +jc grab to get the regrab.

Uthrow is your way of making the cg easier. Around 50-90% is where you can regrab fastfallers that DI your uthrow behind. In fact you regrab them off basically any DI but full away. This is why I trap spacies into either DI'ing behind and getting regrabbed, or DI'ing forward and teching on a plat, so I can uair them offstage and edgeguard them (ez$ lol).

Uthrow obviously can be used for a read, if you REALLY think they're going to DI behind. Decisions like this have to be made on FD, and sometimes DL64 (heavy chaingrabbing stage). You'll see patterns soon in not just the people you play but people in general. You can develop a 6th sense for how much respect to give their decision making. I tell myself things like "aight, this guy thinks he's smart, he's familiar with DI and he's frustrated. This is the second time im chaingrabbing him, I just regrabbed his DI away, he's probably going behind next" it's hard to explain. Sometimes it's worth trying this uthrow trick if you're not confident in getting the regrab with dthrow (or if you're chaingrabbing CF lol), but it may also be better to techchase. Every situation is different.

Once you have someone up to 110% and close to ledge, ftilt them offstage. If they are DI'ing your throws so that they maintain center stage, keep chaingrabbing. But I don't cg past like 135%. I don't know what it is but I cannot get full DI behind around 150-170% or some **** (not that it really matters), I honestly think it might not be possible. If someone chaingrabs a level 1 fox 34-250% I'll stand corrected. You want to kill them sooner than that. At 130% dthrow to wizkick any DI except full behind. And at this percent, a very fast bair should body his DI behind.

There are various option select situations to memorize regarding percent, his DI options, and location of ledge and plats. But that honestly goes for any grab punish.

I'm unable to ftilt in front while reactively regrabbing DI behind at 110 ish, plus the players I do this to will actually live the ftilt. So I regrab to 150 then uair in front and bair behind lol

 

[-ACE-]

I'm unable to ftilt in front while reactively regrabbing DI behind at 110 ish, plus the players I do this to will actually live the ftilt. So I regrab to 150 then uair in front and bair behind lol

By the edge, it leads to an easy edgeguard though, if not simply an edgehog (or ledgehop grab re-punish). What you do works fine but I usually don't like taking the chance of randomly missing a smash turn, but now that I have new controllers things are a little different.

Also **** uair, wizkick too fun lmao

 

[tm]

Yeah I understand. Just really annoying when fox DI's it perfectly and still has a mixup situation for recovery

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I understand. Just really annoying when fox DI's it perfectly and still has a mixup situation for recovery

Throw in dtilt at 90%. Survival DI bodayyyyyd

 

[-ACE-]

Just watched Kage vs Ryan Ford's fox from echo 2016. That guy is good vs Ganon lol.

Twitch Stream: streamlandSSB
TIME: 7:27:00

 

[-ACE-]

Lmfao **** Marth.

http://youtu.be/BP8wAT8i8UA

Now to put a brutal Ganon on marth 0-death over some gangsta ****

 

[tm]

lol anytime someone pops off or thinks a free edgeguard on ganon is sick

 

[Duel]

Lmfao **** Marth.

http://youtu.be/BP8wAT8i8UA

Now to put a brutal Ganon on marth 0-death over some gangsta ****

Lmfao , hilarious.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Speaking of Marth, I highly suggest you all master lh uair regrab. It has done wonders for my edgeguards against Marth, peach, and even puff to a certain extent. It works really well in those situations where they could dj or float to the ledge or right above it. Cause it covers that, but then if they try to go to the ledge you're right there. And if they go low you can react with an eikeldrop, lh run off something, or RLD uair depending on the trajectory. Or you can just refresh invincibility if they don't look like they will take the ledge from you.

The thing that sucks about it is you can get ramen noodled if you don't time it well and you can also sometimes get the wrong hitbox of uair and send em back to stage. It takes some practice. The important thing is it works on people.

 

[F. Stein]

Thanks a lot for the CG answers and resources the information that Ace provided and the practice method that DCW gave me was great. I went from never having chaingrabbed to chain grabbing both fox and falco up to 117%~ and wizards foot. That's just with no DI but I'm working on the DI behind now, up to about four regrabs so I know i'll get there soon. Fox's tail makes chain grabbing him easier for me for some reason, lol, I follow it and I can see the DI/point where I need to grab much easier.

A friend interrupted my CG practice for some freindlies with his young link and he got chain grabbed in neutral -> platform chased. It was pretty fun, the spacy practice makes CGs on anyone else easy so thanks for the support.

I also agree with the LH to UAIR regrab, it's useful in almost every game I play as as a newer ganon. I also like to waveland drop Uairs off of battlefield platform. I saw kage do it in a video and decided to throw it into my edgeguard game because people seem to think ganon is too far away to do anything to edgeguard them.

Does a wavelanded Bair offstage/platform have the same applications as a reverse Uair?

 

[-ACE-]

Reverse uair is usually so much better just from its knockback trajectory. But bair always has uses.

 

[Swagic]

Is there a Ganon mod right now? Because if there is, this forum could use some cleaning... I've spent the last two weeks reading every thread there is on Ganon in Melee (STUPID difficult task... I've gotten everything except the stickies at this point), and about 85% of the threads are useless pieces of garbage that turn into flame wars, never got a reply, or have nothing to do with Ganon. It's disappointing. There were a surprising number of gems in there, though... But seriously, everything is a Rate my Ganon thread...

Overall experience, 3/10, would not recommend.

Also, watching the 2005 metagame discuss the Roy matchup as difficult is HILARIOUS. I'd recommend that one for sure.

EDIT: My absolute favorite part? Watching in 2004 someone criticize Tipman. I believe the exact phrasing was something along the lines of "When have you ever done anything good for the Ganon meta? You're nothing like Eddie, he beat Ken. What tournaments have you won?" I was rolling around for a good long while after that one...

 

[-ACE-]

No, I was the only mod until I got demodded years ago over absolutely nothing lol. I gave someone a warning outside the Ganon boards when they broke a major rule. I only infracted 2 ppl in 8 months, and I really only did that to make it look like I cared lmao. But apparently I was out of line and demodded without discussion. Pretty funny lol, this place has always been a joke.

I just thought it was funny because I knew no other mod gave a flying **** about this place but me.

But let me tell you one thing. Mods not crawling all over the Ganon boards is a good thing. I think if mods made their presence known in the G boards often I'd probably stop posting here.

Tell them to clean up **** and they'll delete threads bro. The wrong ones. They've done it before. Don't report posts plz. Hardly ANYONE looks through all those old threads to find the 1-2 pieces of 2007 technology that still matter, Im not bothered by an 8 year old flame war amidst a bunch of obsolete Ganon posts, let it be.

But seriously, people know nothing about Ganon. A mod could see a very useful thread as useless and delete that ****. I was so pissed when they got rid of the ultimate Ganon thread instead of deleting the flame posts. So disappointing.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I agree with -@ACE-. I think the best thing that could happen to us is if one of us gets promoted to mod. Unlikely, but ya never know.

What we actually could do in the meantime is organized information from this thread and others with a string of new threads. We wouldn't be able to get em stickied, but at least we'd get info compiled.

 

[-ACE-]

I can get threads stickied, a few mods still listen to me lol.

I could also put in the good word for someone to become a mod, but you'd have to turn a blind eye to censor dodging once in a while. Deal? Lmfao.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Nice. Yeah I think everyone here could handle that lol

 

[Diosama]

Kage for mod? It seems fitting

 

[-ACE-]

He's never here...

 

[Diosama]

Hmm, how would we go about getting your moderatorship back?

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, it wouldn't work out. I can't curb my sarcasm lmao.

You're a better candidate! Lol

 

[Diosama]

mfw