Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[YvngFlameHoe]

I think we should try wavelanding after we throw out full hop aerials to cover us if we miss the aerial and also get us away from a punish, lmk if im wrong with this

 

[-ACE-]

I think we should try wavelanding after we throw out full hop aerials to cover us if we miss the aerial and also get us away from a punish, lmk if im wrong with this

No it's legit. wL after a fullhop dair or fair isn't bad. Just landing (NIL) isn't bad either.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I feel like it could get you a guaranteed bait with it and punish them for throwing out a move

 

[Coastward]

so westballz tweeted something pretty interesting

https://twitter.com/TempoWestBallz/status/630943204276310016

i was wondering if this was possible with ganon? probably not since hes hella slow.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

so westballz tweeted something pretty interesting

https://twitter.com/TempoWestBallz/status/630943204276310016

i was wondering if this was possible with ganon? probably not since hes hella slow.

looks to me like a dash forward wavedash to holding back to turn around andthen as soon as your get off the stage you fast fall, all done frame perfectly. Ganon can definitely do this but i don't think it looks as fast as that.

 

[Bwmat]

someone needs to make a gif of it being done with ganon.

 

[Superspright]

looks to me like a dash forward wavedash to holding back to turn around andthen as soon as your get off the stage you fast fall, all done frame perfectly. Ganon can definitely do this but i don't think it looks as fast as that.

Yeah it looks faster IMO (he seems to grab the ledge quicker after the FF). I can do it out of a wavedash as well, but not super consistently yet. I've gotten a few people with it in tournament though.

 

[-ACE-]

One of those weird ass perfect pivot falls. Ganon can do it but I'm pretty sure that requires fp input.

Also is this the year of Marth or something wtf

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Something I'm discovering about the Fox matchup:

There are only a few ways you can guarantee yourself a neutral victory.

1. Trade/win with ground moves
a. Either crouch cancel (which requires a read or super fast reaction to SDI dair)
b. Or dash dance pivot

2. Makes reads on his movement

3. Ledge shenanigans

The truth is, there isn't much that works against a Fox in neutral if they know the matchup. You need to stay close to the ground and be super tight. I've already given up on ever being good enough at the matchup to ever challenge the best Foxes. It was a harsh realization, but it's the unfortunate truth. Fox and Sheik are two characters that Ganon cannot overcome. But I think he can win everything else in the game. Even Falco.

Regardless, I'm going to keep playing this matchup with Ganon and push it as much as I can. It'll make me a better player. Same with Sheik. But I'm starting to really develop a pocket Falco. As soon as the summer ends, I'm going to take a break from Ganon and only play Falco for a bit. I'm only going to use Ganon to collect data on new punishes and the like, which I'm already currently in the midst of. I think playing Falco will help me learn the matchup really well and it will be an investment for the future when I have to start whipping him out on those two matchups.

 

[-ACE-]

I got marth for when I punk out, but all it has is punish game and spacing lol.

At this point I think Fox is the only matchup that would make me use a secondary (maybe puff). I still always go Ganon, but if in the moment I know my Ganon is sucking I might go with the fruity swordsman.

The metagame has progressed in such a way in recent years that makes the average person much better vs Ganon than the average person was 10 years ago (mad free). There was no need for a secondary before, and technically there never will be a need, but it's becoming more and more excepted and not many people play absolutely 100% Ganon (in the past 6 months, I have gone Ganon all but one tourney match, which I won as marth vs puff) anymore. With that said though, the metagame isn't being pushed hard enough. Decision making (and overcoming bad habits) is a very hard thing to work on and takes a lot of focus imo but I try. I REALLY want to take a set off of someone top 20 one day in tournament with Ganon. Or honestly even a MM would be sick. We have to pressure harder. Give them less neutral game to play. Make them stick to close quarters combat, become an expert at these micro-situations, and grab the p!ss out of them.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Puff??? My region has bread some of the campiest puffs and probably the next best puffs after hbox and I haven't despaired that hard in the matchup yet.

But seriously, I think that overcoming bad habits will still only take you so far in the fox matchup. There is no such thing as safe pressure on Fox's shield. And fox players are only going to get better at their oos options.

 

[-ACE-]

They're doing it wrong (or they're just not on your level). That matchup is garbage for Ganon lol. Definitely easier for marth

I don't mind fighting sheik despite the mountain you have to climb. I'm also used to offensive falcos too. Puff is tough though.

I'd like to see you play happy hydra.

But really either it's hbox or it's done.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I don't beat the best puffs in my region. But when I play them, I never feel totally shut down the way I sometimes feel against fox.

My strategy vs. Puff is to move around as fast as possible and play hit and run. If I get cornered I try to camp ledge until I get an opening to get center stage back.

 

[tm]

so westballz tweeted something pretty interesting

https://twitter.com/TempoWestBallz/status/630943204276310016

i was wondering if this was possible with ganon? probably not since hes hella slow.

Yeah ganon can do it. You have to wavedash at a very particular spacing based on the angle of your wavedash. Requires a 1-frame smash turnaround input.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'm making gfycats of all of my chokes from Saturday. It's pretty funny actually

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

what do you G-boys usually record your sets with, Your phones? a camera?

 

[Coastward]

i got 3rd at my weekly, lost to the 2 ranked players that came but almost got 2nd. choked out at the end though, pretty salty.

i experienced playing against a super campy fox finally, **** is ****ing lame as ****. any tips on how to counter it? i felt so helpless.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Campy Foxes are ****ing nothing compared to campy Falcos. I swear there was this Falco player that I played on Sunday where his punish game was super hella weak, but he just kept spamming lasers underneath a side platform and would approach with a dair right after a laser like every time. **** got so annoying that I actually raged and just wanted to ftilt the *******. I wasn't thinking clearly but I know if I run into that situation (or player) again, next time I'll camp him out instead and play hella lame by being ahead by a stock and platform camping to get around his lasers and abuse my lead as much as I can, cause he obviously didn't know how to play the game any other way than by laser spamming and doing full hops into dairs. Players of that level you can really **** around with and piss them off if you really pinpoint their weakpoints.

Now if someone is camping correctly and is a smart player. then you simply need to bait him by being very careful but also being very safe. If you are the more patient player you will win.

 

[-ACE-]

Campy Fox is much harder to control than campy falco at top level. You have to keep the pressure constant.

@ YvngFlameHoe I go to vs when I want to see matches recorded, a phone works fine tho.

 

[Coastward]

i guess patience would be the best thing to have in those situations. i was getting nervous and kept throwing out walls of hitboxes because i was intimidated.

also i got like 17 dthrow > usmashes on marth today lmao.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

how about solo?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The choke artist strikes again! At least I broke my fifth place curse and got fourth. That's something. Choked away a three stock vs one stock situation vs a puff lol I suck. I get nervous and then it's shield grab city.

 

[-ACE-]

how about solo?

I've used a smart phone and a GPS mount before. Or if you have anything you can use to keep your phone still. This could be as simple as finding a chair and something to lean the phone up against. Watching matches helps a lot so find a way lol

 

[Duel]

Just booked my hotel for TBH5, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night ! I would like to chat and play with any and all of you on here!

 

[-ACE-]

BH5 is not impossible for me, but I doubt it.

Someone owes me a lot of money but they have reasons for taking their time to pay me back. I'd be there for sure if I could make it more comfortably

 

[-ACE-]

I also feel like paragon might become the biggest series one day. The guy who runs versus runs paragon and he's very goal oriented. I heard a paragon in Chicago might happen.

 

[tm]

Campy Foxes are ****ing nothing compared to campy Falcos. I swear there was this Falco player that I played on Sunday where his punish game was super hella weak, but he just kept spamming lasers underneath a side platform and would approach with a dair right after a laser like every time. **** got so annoying that I actually raged and just wanted to ftilt the *******. I wasn't thinking clearly but I know if I run into that situation (or player) again, next time I'll camp him out instead and play hella lame by being ahead by a stock and platform camping to get around his lasers and abuse my lead as much as I can, cause he obviously didn't know how to play the game any other way than by laser spamming and doing full hops into dairs. Players of that level you can really **** around with and piss them off if you really pinpoint their weakpoints.

Now if someone is camping correctly and is a smart player. then you simply need to bait him by being very careful but also being very safe. If you are the more patient player you will win.

Campy falco you can just go to platform to take a break from. Fox can get you anwhere and is way better at getting out of corners

Campy Fox is much harder to control than campy falco at top level. You have to keep the pressure constant.

@ YvngFlameHoe I go to vs when I want to see matches recorded, a phone works fine tho.

yeah that

Played at the last MI weekly yesterday, lost to Juggleguy (again) and Kzhu (again), but took a game off Kzhu (again). Grab combo city, vegetable city. Getting kinda demoralized

 

[VegiLohrd]

So I played friendlies with Stro for a few hours yesterday and he taught me some things, even though everything he taught me was in his words "Distilled Renth". He did say that I should always downthrow and upair is godly. I feel like I did learn a lot at least

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Maybe I'm just more annoyed with campy Falcos instead of campy Foxes for some reason... idk.

 

[-ACE-]

So I played friendlies with Stro for a few hours yesterday and he taught me some things, even though everything he taught me was in his words "Distilled Renth". He did say that I should always downthrow and upair is godly. I feel like I did learn a lot at least

Saying to ALWAYS dthrow isn't optimal, but it is his best throw and does GUARANTEE a follow-up more often than does uthrow. But by not using uthrow you are forfeiting good options.

 

[VegiLohrd]

when is upthrow a good option?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Played at the last MI weekly yesterday, lost to Juggleguy (again) and Kzhu (again), but took a game off Kzhu (again). Grab combo city, vegetable city. Getting kinda demoralized

Peach is such a horrible matchup. I can't ****ing stand it. Falcon is pretty bad, but I think it's pretty fun lol.

Peach and spacies are actually my inspiration to start picking up marth. Peach is just soooooo gayyyyyy and I can't deal with a lot of that campy bull**** with ganon.

And then spacies... Well... You know.

@ Duel sweet! It'll be good to see you again at yet another big house. Find me and we'll be sure to talk a little ganon.

@ VegiLohrd up throw has many uses. You can up throw onto a platform for a guaranteed tech chase, you can up throw up air, you can up throw into ftilt, or (my favorite), if you read the DI in, you can up throw --> dtilt --> fair / up air. This works on spacies / falcon.

Down throw is better at low to low-mid % because it sets up nicely for tech chasing and the kage combo (jab to make them miss tech), but up throw is a great mix up at the mid and higher percents.

 

[Superspright]

Campy Foxes are ****ing nothing compared to campy Falcos. I swear there was this Falco player that I played on Sunday where his punish game was super hella weak, but he just kept spamming lasers underneath a side platform and would approach with a dair right after a laser like every time. **** got so annoying that I actually raged and just wanted to ftilt the *******. I wasn't thinking clearly but I know if I run into that situation (or player) again, next time I'll camp him out instead and play hella lame by being ahead by a stock and platform camping to get around his lasers and abuse my lead as much as I can, cause he obviously didn't know how to play the game any other way than by laser spamming and doing full hops into dairs. Players of that level you can really **** around with and piss them off if you really pinpoint their weakpoints.

Now if someone is camping correctly and is a smart player. then you simply need to bait him by being very careful but also being very safe. If you are the more patient player you will win.

If they are just lazily approaching with combo laser into dair then just learn to powershield that laser and punish them. Just drop the shield right after the powershield (it goes down immediately on reflector shield) and then punish. It's pretty simple and straight-forward. Most people are still in their flow so they **** up an aerial, or throw out a tilt when they shouldn't. Just be aware of that. Campy Falco's are not an issue. Campy Foxes are.

Do not camp out Falco. Just stay close enough to him that his approaches have to be done at max distance and powershield them (it's so damn easy) and punish. Falco is the easiest character to powershield against IMO. If I feel out someone's rhythm I'll get many in a row, and a lot of the time it leads to death because they DI improperly.

You need to calm down and observe your opponent. Let go of what you're doing and just focus on them. Seriously PRACTICE POWERSHIELDING. It will help you MASSIVELY in the matchup. It's a 70-30 without it, but it's like a 45-55 (falco's favor) if you learn how to powershield. He has massive holes in his game plan and unless he can fade aerials on your shield like a boss, or cross up perfectly he'll have a hard time. Also don't forget that powershielded uptilt is a frame trap for up-b. Use it to your advantage and bait the uptilt for free up-b.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Updated my knockdown data thread with Falcon info for Section 2: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorfs-knockdown-data.360530/

 

[Duel]

Peach is such a horrible matchup. I can't ****ing stand it. Falcon is pretty bad, but I think it's pretty fun lol.

Peach and spacies are actually my inspiration to start picking up marth. Peach is just soooooo gayyyyyy and I can't deal with a lot of that campy bull**** with ganon.

And then spacies... Well... You know.

@ Duel sweet! It'll be good to see you again at yet another big house. Find me and we'll be sure to talk a little ganon.

I grinded out the peach MU for 6 hours today with a buddy, my goal was to try and learn it better without getting discouraged. I think the most frustrating part is how how much easier it is for peach, so many free KO's. As much as I hate Peach, she still doesn't compare to Puff for me. I absolutely despise Puff.

 

[-ACE-]

when is upthrow a good option?

Breakdown for Battlefield:
(Remember DI behind on a uthrow means regrab, ftilt, or bair vs fastfallers)

Top platform- always dthrow

Lower plats:
In the center of the plat, use dthrow.

If at the outer edge of the plat....

facing in, dthrow (punish DI behind with drop through tipman), techchase restricted opponent off other DI's (low% forces plat techchase) or ftilt (med/high%).

facing offstage, uthrow from med% and up to force them to DI offstage or DI behind. At low% depending on the situation a fastfaller may be able to get the ledge safely from uthrow, so dthrow instead.

at the inner edge of the plat.....

facing offstage, dthrow (punish DI behind with drop through bair or tipman to ftilt).

facing in, uthrow forces either DI behind or tech on top platform.

On stage:

At edge of stage, facing offstage, uthrow forces either DI behind (for guaranteed follow-ups or plat techchase) or DI offstage (effective med% and up).

Any time you're under the center of a platform at low%, uthrow forces platform tech.

Dthrow starts to put Falco on platforms around mid50s% for platform techchase.

And then there are all the typical dthrow techchase scenarios.

EDIT **** auto correct

 

[Bwmat]

I grinded out the peach MU for 6 hours today with a buddy, my goal was to try and learn it better without getting discouraged. I think the most frustrating part is how how much easier it is for peach, so many free KO's. As much as I hate Peach, she still doesn't compare to Puff for me. I absolutely despise Puff.

I'm actually esp. salty about peach & puff atm since I recently lost some sets I feel I shouldn't have to them.

peach destroys ganon/falcon with gimps & edgeguarding that's impenetrable.
my fox sucks against peach for some reason, always get touched by dsmash, often crouching like an idiot. I just get janked hard in that matchup.

and I just hate puff's spacing game. ugh.

 

[Renth]

ISAAC RUNS

TWITCH.TV/Lunacy_renth LETS GOOOOOOOO


- come talk ganondorf

 

[RedmanSSBM]

You know, there have been times where I play vs a Peach and I get rekt both as Falcon and Ganon, so maybe for ****s and giggles and to troll the Peach I'll play as Link vs her next time? I can projectile spam the crap out of her and overall make her life pretty miserable.

 

[-ACE-]

Neutral game would require much less work as link than Ganon, but you'd have to be rock-solid on your ko setups.