Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

On the topic of peach, I've been told uair is better for edgeguarding. But I have so much trouble hitting it; bair is so much easier to space. How do you guys space your uairs vs peach? One trick i'm thinking of trying is rld double jump into a ball and then continue wavelanding into that double jump ball into she's close enough to uair from the double jump. This will only work when she's low, though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Also at what percent sure dthrow fair become guaranteed?

 

[-ACE-]

Just hitting her dress with any part of the uair when she's above you is very easy and sends her at a much lower angle than bair. And when she's recovering low, bair won't hit the sweetspot so you need to uair. It's hard to beat the tip of the parasol but you can consistently if you practice.

For peach dthrow followups, here you go.

Against Peach. The numbers are before the throw damage and are with the throw doing the full 7%. If it's stale and does 6% add 1 to the ranges, etc. This assumes perfect timing on both players actions.

D-Throw Advantage vs Peach (18 Lag; +2 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +14
9-19 ... +15
20-30 .. +16
31-41 .. +17
42-52 .. +18
53-63 .. +19
64-74 .. +20
75-85 .. +21
86-96 .. +22
97-107 . +23
...


F-Air: No Turn
31-41 . Trade with N-Air
42-52 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
53-63 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
64+ ... True Combo

F-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash
53-63 . Trade with N-Air
64-74 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
75-85 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
86+ ... True Combo

B-Air: Behind DI
N/A ... Trade with N-Air
0-8 ... Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
9-19 .. Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
20+ ... True Combo

U-Air: No Turn at 0%
True Combo ..... 2 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 4 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 5 Frame Window for Error

U-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash at 0%
True Combo ..... 0 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 2 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 3 Frame Window for Error

On the 0% u-airs you might need to jump backwards into the u-air on no DI/slight behind DI.

You also have to consider reaction time, as well as the number of frames into their knockback that would allow their DI to be correctly identified for the situation. With Peach, there's 18 frames of knockback that occur before Ganon can act. To be able to act on the very 1st frame you can off the throw where DI sets up for separate actions to be done on frame 1 (such as DI behind needing you to dash behind into something instead), and if the DI were able to be identified starting from the 6th frame of KB, you'd need a choice-based reaction time of 12 frames or less in this situation, which is extremely fast (not to be confused with raw reaction time where 12 frames is simply 'above average').


You can figure out the d-throw advantage on any character with this...

D-Throw Advantage vs Mario (20 Lag; +0 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +12
9-19 ... +13
20-30 .. +14
31-41 .. +15
42-52 .. +16
53-63 .. +17
64-74 .. +18
75-85 .. +19
86-96 .. +20
97-107 . +21
...

To find out the advantage ranges with the d-throw on any character you want, use the above list for Mario (20 lag; +0 Adv Differential), and add/subtract from the advantage using the list below.

D-Throw Lag (NTSC):
1.17 - Bowser ....................... 23 (-3)
1.14 - Donkey Kong .................. 23 (-3)
1.10 - Samus ........................ 23 (-3)
1.09 - Ganondorf .................... 22 (-2)
1.08 - Yoshi ........................ 22 (-2)
1.04 - Captain Falcon / Link ........ 21 (-1)
1.00 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario ..... 20 (+0)
0.94 - Ness ......................... 19 (+1)
0.90 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda ........ 18 (+2)
0.88 - Ice Climbers ................. 18 (+2)
0.87 - Marth ........................ 17 (+3)
0.85 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link .... 18 (+2)
0.80 - Falco / Pikachu .............. 16 (+4)
0.75 - Fox .......................... 15 (+5)
0.70 - Kirby ........................ 15 (+5)
0.60 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch . 12 (+8)
0.55 - Pichu ........................ 12 (+8)

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Fair approach? Never! You need to grab those turnips with Z then throw it back for setups. If you choose to avoid it then you really need to be careful when you commit because if you always dodge it and attack right away your pattern becomes predictible. Whenever I decide to Fair it's because the opponent is already committed to something so the Fair becomes safe to throw out based on their decision. If she's grounded as well, that's no good usually. You said she's in the air a lot, if so why don't you uair/bair her with good spacing?

I don't know why I don't do that more. idk about bair because that hits at a low angle, but I can just full hop bair if that's the case. I really should upair peach when she's in the air and space it properly. But do I need to jump to beat her in the air? Can't I just up-angle ftilt? That catches so many people trying to short hop.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't know why I don't do that more. idk about bair because that hits at a low angle, but I can just full hop bair if that's the case. I really should upair peach when she's in the air and space it properly. But do I need to jump to beat her in the air? Can't I just up-angle ftilt? That catches so many people trying to short hop.

No, you don't force people in the air if you are in the air first, that's not how this game works fundamentally. If you want someone in the air, you have to pressure him to commit first which is caused by stage positioning I think. If you are able to be threatening enough with your range and moves then you can slowly corner anyone. By doing so they are forced to take action or else they'll get killed. If you arent jumping what can Peach do reliably to approach? Not much honestly, she'll have to cut angles in someway other than dash attack and possibly maybe FC Nair. If she is already in the air first, watch that Fair hitbox it's pretty disgusting so you need to get her before the fair comes out with the proper angle. If she doesnt have a turnip then you fight her straight up. Your goal is to never let her have one.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

No, you don't force people in the air if you are in the air first, that's not how this game works fundamentally. If you want someone in the air, you have to pressure him to commit first which is caused by stage positioning I think. If you are able to be threatening enough with your range and moves then you can slowly corner anyone. By doing so they are forced to take action or else they'll get killed. If you arent jumping what can Peach do reliably to approach? Not much honestly, she'll have to cut angles in someway other than dash attack and possibly maybe FC Nair. If she is already in the air first, watch that Fair hitbox it's pretty disgusting so you need to get her before the fair comes out with the proper angle. If she doesnt have a turnip then you fight her straight up. Your goal is to never let her have one.

Should I always try to catch a turnip and throw it right back?

 

[-ACE-]

Sometimes dropping it immediately is best. And sometimes you want to wait for the right time to throw it. But never hold onto it for very long.

You can even throw it behind you and then immediately bair her. Situational.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You could also jump over a grounded peach, drop the turnip and land with a bair/uair. P-p-pressure

 

[Divinokage]

Sometimes dropping it immediately is best. And sometimes you want to wait for the right time to throw it. But never hold onto it for very long.

You can even throw it behind you and then immediately bair her. Situational.

Ya pretty much, should drop it if Peach is close by but you can throw it back if she's far enough. Locke, you don't seem to have a clear goal on the situations you face in general. You really have to look at your options one by one and also your opponent's option depending on the range between you and him. It's all about positioning this game!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ya pretty much, should drop it if Peach is close by but you can throw it back if she's far enough. Locke, you don't seem to have a clear goal on the situations you face in general. You really have to look at your options one by one and also your opponent's option depending on the range between you and him. It's all about positioning this game!

Isn't the goal in situations to get hits?

 

[Divinokage]

Isn't the goal in situations to get hits?

Well ya but you can't play this game while simplifying it so much like this. There should be clear answers for each move thrown at you. At some point those answers will be trained so hard in you, you won't have to think about how to punish accordingly.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Well ya but you can't play this game while simplifying it so much like this. There should be clear answers for each move thrown at you. At some point those answers will be trained so hard in you, you won't have to think about how to punish accordingly.

Yeah I don't have a Peach to play a lot so I'm not gonna be able to figure out all these answers quickly.

 

[King Mob]

Isn't the goal in situations to get hits?

It's like chess. You want to keep your opponent in weak positions and pressure them from stronger positions. And positioning's hella important for Ganon because he can't control all that much of the stage from a given position due to being so slow.

 

[Divinokage]

Yeah I don't have a Peach to play a lot so I'm not gonna be able to figure out all these answers quickly.

Maybe not but there's videos and stuff.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

if peach does a dsmash on you and it's going to send you off stage, cc it for two hits and then di up. so tired of seeing ganondorfs die to down smash lol

 

[Divinokage]

if peach does a dsmash on you and it's going to send you off stage, cc it for two hits and then di up. so tired of seeing ganondorfs die to down smash lol

Or you can just not get hit by that basic frame trap. =P

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Maybe not but there's videos and stuff.

I could argue that I'm not the player in the video. I can study videos of other Ganons to get a reference, but I don't believe that actually helps me when I'm in the moment.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

Against Peach

Magus posts are god's gift to man this **** is so useful

I could argue that I'm not the player in the video. I can study videos of other Ganons to get a reference, but I don't believe that actually helps me when I'm in the moment.

I'm actually sort of subscribed to a similar mindset, while analysis from other people and posts about what to do help a lot, it's also rough to remember all of that in the moment
which is where ingraining it during friendlies comes in but even then, rarely played matchups and ****

The way I've gotten around this with other games is by just recording and watching myself play a lot. Recording almost everything and while maybe not going into in depth analysis of it all, just watching for overall patterns and habits helps me a ton. If I see them myself out of game and see what I'm doing in place of what I should be doing (and remembering how I felt in the moment), it's a lot easier for me to relate and recognize those situations in the future so I can react properly. At least that's how it's been for me with other games. I'm actually thinking of sinking some cash for a laptop and a capture card to just record friendlies with whenever I go out, just so I have some footage. I doubt I'll get it any other way and at the very least it'll be amusing in a masochistic sort of way.

 

[Linguini]

Last stock last match...now that's how you use the utilt effectively LOL it's actually guaranteed against sheik if they're forced to use the max range on their up b.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emRCg58XPC0

 

[-ACE-]

if peach does a dsmash on you and it's going to send you off stage, cc it for two hits and then di up. so tired of seeing ganondorfs die to down smash lol

CC one hit and DI up. I told nc smash this 5 years ago and they ignored me. Great strat.

 

[spider_sense]

Just hitting her dress with any part of the uair when she's above you is very easy and sends her at a much lower angle than bair. And when she's recovering low, bair won't hit the sweetspot so you need to uair. It's hard to beat the tip of the parasol but you can consistently if you practice.

For peach dthrow followups, here you go.

Is uair Peach from 0-41% really possible? I mean maybe around 20% it's possible but I've tried numerous times anywhere lower than that. I just usually jab or f-tilt; though I feel like jab can lead to much better follow-ups. @ RedmanSSBM If she's dash attacking your jumps that means you need to stay grounded, just dash dance in front of her and wait for her to get antsy enough to throw it out, shield it accordingly or CC into d-tilt (mash the **** out of down tilt so you can't get dsmash afterwards) Even if Ganon's is facing the other way you can still grab that ass and show her a great time.

 

[-ACE-]

Yes you can uair at 0%. I usually high ftilt since it's easy as f*ck. but for no DI I either jab like you said or try to FP uair out of throw lag. You can even FP pivot uair.

 

[tm]

if peach does a dsmash on you and it's going to send you off stage, cc it for two hits and then di up. so tired of seeing ganondorfs die to down smash lol

CC one hit and DI up. I told nc smash this 5 years ago and they ignored me. Great strat.

I believe your guys' discrepancy lies with the distance from ganon at which she dsmashes. I usually CC one hit, but in some situations (when she 'tipper' dsmashes you, if you will) CCing the first hit keeps you on the same side, so the 2nd hit will still send you offstage, and it's in this situation that you would want to CC two hits instead of one.

Ian feel free to correct me if that's not what you meant; If there's a different reason to CC two hits instead of one, I don't know about it. [Wild guess here, but maybe CCing two would still keep you behind her before the last hit, regardless of her initial positioning due to momentum from the first CC or something]

 

[-ACE-]

CC'ing 2 sends you in the same direction as not CC'ing. CC one and DI up to change the direction.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I played on stream today. I swear, one of these days, I'll win a recorded match. It'll happen. No stream johns this time, I played decently, this guy is just better than me.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

just got back from KTAR XI
on the subject of burning out on friendlies
registration opened at 10am, I got there a bit after that
singles were scheduled to start at 4pm, I didnt play my games until after 10
12 hours of friendlies and annoyed waiting are not the best way to warm up for games

that being said, in pools I got rekt by Smuckers and then lost to another Falcon and I realized despite knowing what I should be doing, like walling shffled approaches with up angled ftilt, I am totally incapable of doing it against some players who are just too damn fast
I really hate that matchup though

and yeah, after getting next to no sleep last night and driving nearly 2 hours to get there and then 12 hours of not-tournament before playing, I was too dead to stay for the rest of it
probably wont be done until the far into the next day
did make me realize multi-game tournaments annoy the hell out of me because of all the dead time waiting

 

[Divinokage]

It took 12 hours just for you to get a match in? Wtf.. That sounds like a nightmare. No way the tourney can finish on time like that.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Going to a tournament tomorrow with a lot of good players. Hoping to get a lot of matches recorded and play well.

 

[spider_sense]

Since I do want to travel more. I just needed to know how you guys deal with sleep? I remember going to smash the record on the 2nd day and feeling absolutely horrible because I drank a **** load of energy drinks and smoked mad purp. lol. I've learned my lesson and told myself I need to have a better bed time. lol

Also I'm waiting for you guys to post more of your vids. I can't be the only one out there swagging with Ganon. Ace? Renth? TM? Skytch? ()

Side note: Thinking about making an "2014" tech video demonstrating everything Ganon can do and having detailed explanations on how to perform each tech.

 

[-ACE-]

Great idea on the vid. I would have made a tech skill vid at some point in my smash "career" if I had recording equipment or lived near a smasher that had some.

And @ spider_sense my swag is being directed towards non-melee related activities lately, lol. But I'm gonna have time off soon and head to miami for smash and stuff. I'll already be in FL on the west side so like 2.5 hr drive. Maybe I can help you with ideas on that vid too.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ spider_sense I deal with sleeping by making sure that if I want to perform adequately, that I get at least 7 hours of sleep at minimum. I'd really recommend sleeping 8 hours though to be honest. Just don't do anything that will keep you up late in the night. Energy drinks and purp are definitely gonna have your adrenaline still pumping late into the night, and that's no good. You'll want to start winding down at least an hour before you actually head to bed so that you can relax and your brain can wind down. Of course, this can be a bit difficult when traveling cause you're most likely to share a room with noisy smashers, but the important thing is to at least lie down and get some rest. I'm sure if the noise is bothering you enough you can politely ask them to quiet down or move to another room, cause they have to respect that you want your sleep to play well in the tournament.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Here's a vid.
http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591622829

It starts at 4 minutes and 40 seconds.

Watch me play against a falco and give me advice if you feel like it (@ spider_sense I'm looking at you). I actually played decently the first game, but got ****ed up the second game. This guy has always beaten me, but now it's actually pretty close. He's Little England's training partner, so he's no scrub. Little England, for the newcomers, knocked Kage out of winners at FC.

This game is all mindset, it's so weird. I played very cognitively the first game and then, since it was so close, I kinda relaxed a little bit and played on auto-pilot second game and got destroyed.

 

[GanonMaster]

hmm, stating the obvious, powershields are op in this mu. Also, you would've won if your edgeguards where on I feel like

 

[Divinokage]

Since I do want to travel more. I just needed to know how you guys deal with sleep? I remember going to smash the record on the 2nd day and feeling absolutely horrible because I drank a **** load of energy drinks and smoked mad purp. lol. I've learned my lesson and told myself I need to have a better bed time. lol

Also I'm waiting for you guys to post more of your vids. I can't be the only one out there swagging with Ganon. Ace? Renth? TM? Skytch? ()

Side note: Thinking about making an "2014" tech video demonstrating everything Ganon can do and having detailed explanations on how to perform each tech.

Why haven't you done that back in 09... =( I mean the travelling part. We still have a MM due.. lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ganon Master, I can't edge guard for **** unless it's ganon or falcon. Sometimes marth as well because his recovery is awful. But what you said about power shielding is ok I guess, but I have trouble with lasers for a different reason. Power shielding is ok, but any good falco will use it against you if you do it too often. My problem is overall laser evasion, not just power shielding. I agree with you that power shielding can improve aspects of my laser evasion game, but it is not essential. Look at spidey or linguini play. They power shield like once a match, maybe.

@ Divinokage @ -ACE- @ spider_sense : how do you guys edge guard space animals? Is it more of a prediction thing or a reaction thing? Vs. ganon / falcon, for example, I usually just react and use maybe 10% prediction. Illusion is just too quick and hard to punish. I hate it.

Yo also, 7:12. You guys gotta start doing **** like that more

Forgot to mention that the great Eddie also showed up! It was really cool to see him in attendance. I had a lot of fun playing him and what's amazing is that his spacing is still so good. It's such a weird style- he'll double jump to the point where you think you can hit him, but it's totally safe and he drops down with a bair. That guy is so cool. Too bad he didn't even make it out of pools lol.

 

[LoOshKiN]

@ PseudoTurtle
Always anticipate illusion since it's the hardest to react to. If they don't illusion then have to up b and that's much easier to punish because of startup. You can go offstage and edgeguard while they're charging firefox/bird. Also, it's not really a good idea to grab edge against spacies since you can only ledge-hop uair. Start your edgeguard from stage with your back towards edge, read illusion first and react to up b if they do that.
Hope that helps some.

PS: Here's the only recorded matches I got from the last tournament I went to. It was a crew battle. I'm in @29:22. Yay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAV5LJGZn_Y

 

[tm]

Since I do want to travel more. I just needed to know how you guys deal with sleep? I remember going to smash the record on the 2nd day and feeling absolutely horrible because I drank a **** load of energy drinks and smoked mad purp. lol. I've learned my lesson and told myself I need to have a better bed time. lol

Also I'm waiting for you guys to post more of your vids. I can't be the only one out there swagging with Ganon. Ace? Renth? TM? Skytch? ()

Yo michigan doesn't record ****, so I never get matches recorded. Even when I'm in other regions I'm usually not deemed stream worthy. But here are my latest sets that were recorded, in case you haven't watched.
vs Vudujin (luigi)
vs Zanguzen (falco)
vs Juggleguy (falcon)
vs KJH (falco)
As always, I love tips.

And as far as sleep goes, the answer is simple. Get sleep lol. Plan out your morning, know how much time you need to do the stuff you wanna do before going to the tourney (at the time you planned for), and plan to go to bed x hours before that (8 is good, plus some leeway). Smash is great and traveling to tournaments is one of the funnest times to hang out with guys and have a ton of fun, but if you're there to compete you gotta draw the line with how late you stay up. I have some friends who really like to party, and that's cool, but business is business and when I travel to tournaments with them I make it clear to them that I intend to get a good rest.

 

[Coastward]

damn, boards are more active than ever. gotta get some new footage for you guys.

 

[tm]

Here's a vid.
http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591622829

It starts at 4 minutes and 40 seconds.

Watch me play against a falco and give me advice if you feel like it

Not the best here, and twitch made it almost unwatchable but my patience got me through game 1. To me it looks like there are 3 big issues that you should focus on: not getting stuck in shield, not being above falco so much / in the air, and edgeguarding.

You're so afraid of lasers that you are quick to shield in neutral. Even when you roll away safely, you assume that he will still be pressuring you and come out of your roll already in shield, basically removing the 'neutral' position that you were able to reset to. If you can't directly punish him from your shield (using SSDI + grab is AMAZING, also SH uair if he is on side plat or coming down from full hop or top plat with dair [trade with that all day imo]), then your best bet is to reset. But really SSDI is amazing, and you'll make a good falco second guess how good his pressure is with it. The way I deal with lasers is a combination of powershielding, CCing (if I think they are about to approach after it, or if I don't have time to shield it / don't want to get stuck in shield), and walling over it with bair (if they aren't shooting high lasers, also occasionally fair instead). If you watch Linguini, he doesn't really give a **** about lasers, and a lot of times he is able to capitalize on the opponents next mistake partially because they are too confident that he's already 'shut down' by them, but really they're just a bit of damage. I would say that you're giving them too much respect. Try to never be in shield unless an attack or laser is about to hit you. They get really annoying if the falco is actually laser camping you, but if they aren't you should really be focusing more on their next approach. A lot of times to escape the lasers and pressure, you would go to platform. That's fine, but you should usually regain ground / center stage before trying to reengage. Also shield dropping is amazing. Edgeguarding... I don't really know what to say. It's hard. Watch good ganons vs falco, a lot. Falco is still a lot easier to edgeguard than fox. And if he ever goes low and upBs, he should actually die, every time.
FL guys probably have more useful / quality advice in that MU.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PSA!!! By the way everyone, you can timestamp your twitch links. Not to be annoying but you guys should really do it, it would save your viewers some trouble. just add "?t=00h00m00s" at the end of your links (replace 00 with the numbers, and you can leave h / m / s out).
So this:
"http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591622829
It starts at 4 minutes and 40 seconds."
Should be this:
http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591622829?t=4m40s

You can even embed the link into text by highlighting the text and clicking on the little hyperlink icon above the text area in your posts, to do stuff like this: Pseudoturtle (ganon) vs LanceInThePants (falco)

That is all

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Got all of my matches recorded on my phone, so incoming phone vids (in order).

Tournament Matches:
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon) vs Mate In 3 (Marth) 1
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon) vs Mate In 3 (Marth) 2
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon) vs Mate In 3 (Marth) 3
CAPS LOCKE (Falcon/Doc) vs Nevermind (Samus)
CAPS LOCKE (DK/Ganon) vs $mike (Marth)
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon) vs BEHR (Fox) [Recommended Viewing]

Money Matches:
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon/DK) vs Pineapple (Falco) $3 MM
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon) vs EMB (Marth) $3 MM [Recommended Viewing] [Shaky Camera]
CAPS LOCKE (Ganon/Luigi/DK) vs Bl@ckChris (Ganon/Fox) $3 MM [Game 3 is Recommended Viewing]

That is all for now