-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
After short hopping for the uair spike, being able to bair instead on reaction (if they side-B slightly higher trying to catch you off guard/hit you) is crucial imo. Uair can trade if spacing isn't just right.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I was thinking that there is a way to abuse ledge invincibility while a spacie is offstage and then hit them with the invincible upair while coming back on the stage. I imagine that beats a lot of things if well timed. It would probably be best to do that when the spacie is off stage and below the level of the ledge.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
If you know when they're going to side-B, sure. You just have to know when to time the ledge regrab to start the invincibility.
But, the benefit of the invincible ledgehop uair is mainly that all hitboxes of the uair work (not just the tip of his foot on frame 16 which always works as it's disjointed), and if he's that high, he has time to wait a sec and sweet spot a few frames after your uair ends. A regular uair spike is definitely easier to set up, not because inv ledgehop uair is difficult or anything, but you don't have to deal with timing the regrab.
The key is just hitting him without trading. Reaction time and being able to make decisions quickly is huge.
But, the benefit of the invincible ledgehop uair is mainly that all hitboxes of the uair work (not just the tip of his foot on frame 16 which always works as it's disjointed), and if he's that high, he has time to wait a sec and sweet spot a few frames after your uair ends. A regular uair spike is definitely easier to set up, not because inv ledgehop uair is difficult or anything, but you don't have to deal with timing the regrab.
The key is just hitting him without trading. Reaction time and being able to make decisions quickly is huge.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
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![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Yep I got ****ed up, what do you want me to say? lol.
Why do you think I switch now specifically for these players?
Anyways, how would you critique a 4 stock? lol.. Get ****ed!?
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Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
all he did was bair dude. c'mon. there was no reason to get 4 stocked by him =[ my heart was broken.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
My heart was broken a long time ago, broken to realize that it's stupid to keep trying to same things in order to beat this guy and other people too. Lol @ all he did was Bair.. all his bairs were well spaced ones. It didn't look like I played well either.
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Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
of course doing the same things will make you lose, but do you really feel there's absolutely nothing you can do differently with ganondorf to beat him?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well if my win streak is 0% with him in sets, ya there's nothing much I can do, got my habits down and mix ups way too hard. 7 years of trying with Ganon to beat him, never successful.
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cptjiggles69
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 294
http://youtu.be/bvhYCrc9_hU this is totally relevant. @ kage just change into ganon beast form.. Stocks gone lol
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
I've been trying to beat colbol for 7 years as well. My win ratio against him is also 0%. But every time I play him, I'm getting closer and closer. I know there's stuff I can do differently. I'm surprised that you of all people don't have a more positive outlook on this.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya but there's a big difference when your player skills are similar then when there's a clear gap between the 2 of you. But you seem to imply positive outlook = I have to play Ganon. That's not a very smart statement objectively speaking. Unless you want me to go on a blind rage as I always do? lol.
Renth
Smash Hero
So we all agree Ganondorf sucks. I feel like this is step one in our recovery program ;
Things you should not have done when playing ssbm
Things you should not have done when playing ssbm
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well it's certainly fun playing him but these days I like winning a lot more. Losing so many times = it hurts. lol
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
there has to be hope for ganon. i can feel it my balls!
i realize ganon sucks; i figured that out the first time i used him in tournament. but is he really that limited? there's a lot of things we don't really see consistently with ganon at topish level play that might make a difference. the punish game for sure hasn't been pushed to it's limits yet. maybe everything else is just gimmicks, but that's just more mixups at your disposal.
i realize ganon sucks; i figured that out the first time i used him in tournament. but is he really that limited? there's a lot of things we don't really see consistently with ganon at topish level play that might make a difference. the punish game for sure hasn't been pushed to it's limits yet. maybe everything else is just gimmicks, but that's just more mixups at your disposal.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Kage you played like straight cheeks that match.... you can beat him. Keep searching for the answer. I'd critique if I had time
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Ouch Kage, that game vs BAM was... brutal. I feel like maybe you weren't playing patient enough or something. You just never really got anything started. He won the neutral game most of the time.
GanonMaster
Smash Apprentice
sorry for late respons, school is kinda wrecking me...
I am talking on how to make players who have decent execution make mistakes. That is the biggest differece between they who are better than the player I struggle to beat atm and me. I feel like on players with bad execution being able to punish hard is pressure enough, but against better players I need to ably pressure somehow
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya I did it in WF if you saw the match but this time I got ****ing owned... lol. I'm just trying to determine when i should use Ganon or not at this point, it's tough choices. Also certainly I can do better stuff in this matchup, it's the only one I struggle with. I'd rather face a Fox all day than a Falco. Perhaps I need better anti-laser footsies. I feel like I can exploit a lot easier with Marth but that's just me currently at this moment in time.
Though i realized i let Falco move around too much. I need to go for more grab setups into techchases/cg since always trying to beat out Falco's moves is quite tough and somewhat predictible too. Gotta fix those patterns for that matchup for sure. *Sigh* This game sometimes huh..
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GanonMaster
Smash Apprentice
also, Confirmed for Apex. Guess that is something!
if someone wanna play friendlies there, I'd love too
if someone wanna play friendlies there, I'd love too
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Nice! Ya for sure.also, Confirmed for Apex. Guess that is something!
if someone wanna play friendlies there, I'd love too
Coastward
Smash Lord
finally have consistent friendly time during the week, gonna level up real quick.
Linguini
Smash Master
Kage you look lost against falco. You gotta put up some walls to space out falc0ck.
@caps You have to watch the spacies jumps when you hit them off stage. If they commit to anything other than jumping back to the ledge the uair can beat it if tippied correctly. Any recovery above the stage is also covered by an uair. Why do anything else? Too many times i've had spacies come back because I opted to stomp. Tommy had it right...almost 10 years ago.
@caps You have to watch the spacies jumps when you hit them off stage. If they commit to anything other than jumping back to the ledge the uair can beat it if tippied correctly. Any recovery above the stage is also covered by an uair. Why do anything else? Too many times i've had spacies come back because I opted to stomp. Tommy had it right...almost 10 years ago.
Coastward
Smash Lord
aight, so after my 3 hour long friendly session, i got a few questions.
1) whats the best way to punish peach's/sheik's dsmash on shield?
2) when sheik starts tilting me everywhere what should i do? di away all the time?
i was playing pretty well. i was winning most of the matches between mid-top level players in my scene. so close to where i need to be.
1) whats the best way to punish peach's/sheik's dsmash on shield?
2) when sheik starts tilting me everywhere what should i do? di away all the time?
i was playing pretty well. i was winning most of the matches between mid-top level players in my scene. so close to where i need to be.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Wrote a little something on /r/ssbm on reddit about wall-jump ledge-teching and why it's so good and how to do it.
I've been doing it more and more recently and it's turned a lot of games around for me and let me live longer.
Ledge-teching and immediately punishing. What I mean by this is say I, playing as Ganondorf, want to sweetspot but my opponent, a Falco, want's to down-smash me to finish me off. If I get close enough to the sweetspot, I can buffer a wall tech by pressing R and a wall-jump tech by pressing Y. So I press both R and Y at the same time first, then you need to smack the control stick towards the stage so (that SDI is applied) when your opponent down-smashes or does whatever move to finish you off. The timing is the most tricky part and why you might miss it a few times, but if you do it right, you'll wall-jump tech into the stage every time. I always hit left or right on my c-stick twice in case the first input isn't read, so that I immediately bair.
This technique will win you games when it looks like you're about to lose. You're recovering, it looks like all hope is lost, and then he attacks, you get that wall-jump tech bair, and then suddenly he is the one who is in a bad situation or just straight up loses.
This also works really well for Marth, as if he bairs as soon as he wall-jump techs, his momentum won't have him killed and he also turns around so he can immediately grab the ledge.
Makes me kind of want to play Marth sometimes.
This tech is usable literally every time that your opponent wants to hit you as you're coming up from the ledge to recover, so you should do this literally every time you are recovering low. Even if he doesn't attack and you just grab the ledge, you'll end up rolling onto the stage, which can be punish, but still, you get the point.
Practice this vs. a lvl 9 game and watch if you do not have 20XX hack pack. He always attacks at the ledge, so if you can do the wall-jump tech bair when he upsmashes you (has the most difficult timing) then that's how you know you got it down pretty well. Of course, I've only really tried this with Ganon, but I'm sure this would be great for Marth, Falco, Fox, Doc, Samus, Falcon, Sheik, etc. Nearly every character can do this cause almost every character has a good back air (except Pikachu).
I've been doing it more and more recently and it's turned a lot of games around for me and let me live longer.
Ledge-teching and immediately punishing. What I mean by this is say I, playing as Ganondorf, want to sweetspot but my opponent, a Falco, want's to down-smash me to finish me off. If I get close enough to the sweetspot, I can buffer a wall tech by pressing R and a wall-jump tech by pressing Y. So I press both R and Y at the same time first, then you need to smack the control stick towards the stage so (that SDI is applied) when your opponent down-smashes or does whatever move to finish you off. The timing is the most tricky part and why you might miss it a few times, but if you do it right, you'll wall-jump tech into the stage every time. I always hit left or right on my c-stick twice in case the first input isn't read, so that I immediately bair.
This technique will win you games when it looks like you're about to lose. You're recovering, it looks like all hope is lost, and then he attacks, you get that wall-jump tech bair, and then suddenly he is the one who is in a bad situation or just straight up loses.
This also works really well for Marth, as if he bairs as soon as he wall-jump techs, his momentum won't have him killed and he also turns around so he can immediately grab the ledge.
Makes me kind of want to play Marth sometimes.
This tech is usable literally every time that your opponent wants to hit you as you're coming up from the ledge to recover, so you should do this literally every time you are recovering low. Even if he doesn't attack and you just grab the ledge, you'll end up rolling onto the stage, which can be punish, but still, you get the point.
Practice this vs. a lvl 9 game and watch if you do not have 20XX hack pack. He always attacks at the ledge, so if you can do the wall-jump tech bair when he upsmashes you (has the most difficult timing) then that's how you know you got it down pretty well. Of course, I've only really tried this with Ganon, but I'm sure this would be great for Marth, Falco, Fox, Doc, Samus, Falcon, Sheik, etc. Nearly every character can do this cause almost every character has a good back air (except Pikachu).
iRanch
Smash Cadet
spider_sense
Smash Champion
I'd like to play this Bam fellow.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Kage, that was a depressing match, man. I know Bam is good (like, really good), but he's not good enough to 4 stock you! That's kind of why I think spidey has a point when he says it's a mental thing. That, and I'm pretty sure you've beaten players that have beaten him. However, I actually do agree with your choice of switching characters because it may help you overcome the block. When you beat him with marth or falcon, you'll see bam as a beatable player and can maybe even apply that with ganon.
On another note, spidey and linguini have to stop being so selfish and tell us their falco secrets I'm so sick of getting absolutely trashed by bad falco players.
Anyway, on to tm. I'm watching your juggleguy set (there's not much I can do about KJH, so I'll hold off on the critique) now. I'll edit in updates as I see them.
0:06, right away, you jab (awesome), but go for the fair after that. He DI'd the jab away from you, so you couldn't follow up with a grab / jab, but I'm fairly certain that you could follow up with any tilt (beside up tilt) after. @
Divinokage
, jab --> dtilt is a true combo, right? Anyway, I probably would have ftilted to wall him out. You probably wouldn't even need to angle it upward at that spacing.
0:08, he gets the grab. After hitting you in mid-air with that nair, that's guaranteed. I honestly don't even think you can DI out of that in any way, so that's unfortunate. Using your double jump in this situation is ok I think, if you have the right read, but that up air was definitely not going to hit. Fair might have, but he did the classic falcon- dash away, wait for you to screw up, and punish. When he's dashing back, it's because he's looking for an opportunity to go in- after you flubbed that up air, it was free. Again, fair may have worked, but I honestly would have crossed him up with a waveland and jabbed / ftilted because it was pretty clear that he wasn't going to throw out a hitbox aggressively.
Luckily, he didn't punish you too hard, you DI'd well, and jabbed him out of his knee- just what you needed! Now keep it going. You threw out that stomp, expecting something, but I can't tell what exactly. After this point, you should take note that he likes to run away and wait for what you're going to do, so he can come in and punish (and whiffed stomp was an easy one, though, luckily, he didn't get you for it). Now, what people don't realize against ganon is that this is not always a safe option. You can build pressure a number of ways:
fair won't work, he'll dash dance grab you. But perfect waveland into jab is actually not a bad choice, it will usually catch them off guard. Juggleguy is good at DI'ing those jabs away, so some follow ups are trickier to do. You could waveland (like I said before), do an empty hop in for the scare factor, or just start running in to close space.
0:12, bad shield grab attempt, but I'm sure you already know that. Be careful, as the knee is safe on shield, so even if it DID hit you, be wary of those shield grabs. However, and again, this is mostly just matchup experience, you could tell he was trying to cross you up. I would have bair'd out of shield to prevent the dash away grab. Unfortunately, a lot of falcons like to raptor boost here, so you can mix up full hop dairs as well if you think that's going to happen (better IMO than SHFFL'd dair because of the dash away option).
0:19, good reaction! Just a little bit slow, but no matter. Unless your opponent is super proficient at shield dropping, that uair can be followed by another one (SH uair, DJ uair) and it would have hit him. The only time this is punishable is when they expect it, and people rarely do... And even then, I've really only been punished here by shield drops
I like what you're doing with your walls, but falcon is so quick that well spaced spam CAN be safe, but isn't always (0:27). To be hoenst with you, at 0:28, I would have probably done the exact same thing and thrown out that bair. Juggleguy just read it and punished accordingly. In retrospect, a high angled ftilt was definitely your option of choice as it would have stuffed that single jump and likely put him on the plat for a crazy momentum shift.
0:29, you went for that jab into fair again. I can't really think of a situation against falcon where that's a good idea at the % when jab won't cause knock down. He ended up shield grabbing you for it, but that was some jank **** lol (dat spot dodge), I can't really say anything that you could have done to prevent that except maybe to space the fair better (I still suck at this too).
0:32, he grabbed you and opted for the f throw. I'm sure this was a mistake because d throw obviously would have been better for him. At your percent, you didn't go very far and this, unfortunately doesn't leave ganon's slow ass in many offensive positions (high ftilt would not have come out in time), so best go on the defense. Falcon has a few options. He can jump away and do some platform stuff, come in with a nair or come in with a knee. 99/100, he will nair you, so get ready to crouch cancel. You can jab after this or grab (situational). At this percent, it'd definitely be better than shield because you can counter attack, unless he went for the knee (which, when CC'd at this % wouldn't really lead into anything).
0:44, you had him in his shield because you were in SH fair range. This is fantastic. Falcon has the same terrible oos options as ganon does. You're giving him so much room by double jumping up. You could either just fair the shield (I think your space was out of shield grab range) or done some empty hop shenanigans.
0:45, you power shielded his stomp. I noticed that that pink shield came up for a little bit and then threw out the bair- not fast enough vs falcon. If you threw it out sooner, it may have connected or at least put him on his toes. Instead, he stood there and went in for the grab, which brings me to another point. There are some spacings when a SHFF auto cancel bair into tilt/jab is good, but not in this one... I guess it's hard to explain. But when he's looking right at you, he can definitely come in and grab you out of it before you even land. In this case, you may have wanted to DJ and get on the platform.
But, he grabbed, tech chased, and got ahead of himself and lost the stock... Lol typical falcon.
0:56, that moonwalk. Nice, but not a good move choice haha. I would say just waveland and tilt. It would have connected because he was DDing in your range and didn't know it.
0:58, that stomp. You must have known after you did it that it had no chance of hitting. I would have just ran off the platform to gain center stage and threw out a bair or something. But if you're feeling ballsy and still want to attack, instead of jumping and hoping to hit that dair, you can actually jump, fast fall through the platform and still get part of the uair hitbox out. Great option sometimes, especially when he did that random nair onto the stage nowhere near you. You were perfectly in range too and he was facing backwords. It may have made for a good move choice.
That stomp at 1:01 was mis-spaced and a fair may have been better anyway, but you know that.
Nice dash attack at 1:03. Great anti-air choice and I need to use it more as such. Now, I love to tilt after dash attack for walling purposes vs other characters, but since falcon will typically attack from the air, you may have to chance it into an upward angled ftilt. The up angle wouldn't have hit here, but he was still in his shield regardless. Tip of the tilt on shield = nice ganon pressure. You can tell that you got punished for that full hop bair.
Awesome tech at 1:16. There wasn't much of a counter attack available after the fact, so side-b was actually a really good choice. Ganon is just bad and you got punished anyway. Nothing you can do.
You used your double jump at 1:20, which, IMO, wasn't great. I would have saved it. At 1:21, when it's obvious like that that he's going to come out and attack you (likely because you didn't have a DJ), you could have used down b to outspace and counter attack. Risky, but it's an option.
1:24, great punishes and edge guards. Couldn't have done it any better. Very nice.
1:40, nice patience, not approaching recklessly and walling him out with that ftilt. You played the neutral really well until that shield grab at 1:45. But you didn't eat more than a few jabs, so no worries.
1:48, very nice. @Moy , remember what I told you about jabbing the back of the shield? You jab, it's safe, and you wait for the roll behind. Tm got a great stomp, until 1:51. The great question: will they tech this or can I sneak in a fair? I've thought about experimenting with a full hop fair in case of no time to tech and then a double jump uair to cover tech in place... can't say I've ever done this, but it would have worked here!
After that, it was a lot of rock, paper, scissors and you just lost this time. Unfortunate, but hey, it happens.
^Again, all of the above is simply constructive criticism from a less skilled player who happens to know the falcon matchup.
You can most definitely get him next time!
On another note, spidey and linguini have to stop being so selfish and tell us their falco secrets
I'm so sick of getting absolutely trashed by bad falco players.Anyway, on to tm. I'm watching your juggleguy set (there's not much I can do about KJH, so I'll hold off on the critique) now. I'll edit in updates as I see them.
0:06, right away, you jab (awesome), but go for the fair after that. He DI'd the jab away from you, so you couldn't follow up with a grab / jab, but I'm fairly certain that you could follow up with any tilt (beside up tilt) after. @
Divinokage
, jab --> dtilt is a true combo, right? Anyway, I probably would have ftilted to wall him out. You probably wouldn't even need to angle it upward at that spacing.0:08, he gets the grab. After hitting you in mid-air with that nair, that's guaranteed. I honestly don't even think you can DI out of that in any way, so that's unfortunate. Using your double jump in this situation is ok I think, if you have the right read, but that up air was definitely not going to hit. Fair might have, but he did the classic falcon- dash away, wait for you to screw up, and punish. When he's dashing back, it's because he's looking for an opportunity to go in- after you flubbed that up air, it was free. Again, fair may have worked, but I honestly would have crossed him up with a waveland and jabbed / ftilted because it was pretty clear that he wasn't going to throw out a hitbox aggressively.
Luckily, he didn't punish you too hard, you DI'd well, and jabbed him out of his knee- just what you needed! Now keep it going. You threw out that stomp, expecting something, but I can't tell what exactly. After this point, you should take note that he likes to run away and wait for what you're going to do, so he can come in and punish (and whiffed stomp was an easy one, though, luckily, he didn't get you for it). Now, what people don't realize against ganon is that this is not always a safe option. You can build pressure a number of ways:
fair won't work, he'll dash dance grab you. But perfect waveland into jab is actually not a bad choice, it will usually catch them off guard. Juggleguy is good at DI'ing those jabs away, so some follow ups are trickier to do. You could waveland (like I said before), do an empty hop in for the scare factor, or just start running in to close space.
0:12, bad shield grab attempt, but I'm sure you already know that. Be careful, as the knee is safe on shield, so even if it DID hit you, be wary of those shield grabs. However, and again, this is mostly just matchup experience, you could tell he was trying to cross you up. I would have bair'd out of shield to prevent the dash away grab. Unfortunately, a lot of falcons like to raptor boost here, so you can mix up full hop dairs as well if you think that's going to happen (better IMO than SHFFL'd dair because of the dash away option).
0:19, good reaction! Just a little bit slow, but no matter. Unless your opponent is super proficient at shield dropping, that uair can be followed by another one (SH uair, DJ uair) and it would have hit him. The only time this is punishable is when they expect it, and people rarely do... And even then, I've really only been punished here by shield drops
I like what you're doing with your walls, but falcon is so quick that well spaced spam CAN be safe, but isn't always (0:27). To be hoenst with you, at 0:28, I would have probably done the exact same thing and thrown out that bair. Juggleguy just read it and punished accordingly. In retrospect, a high angled ftilt was definitely your option of choice as it would have stuffed that single jump and likely put him on the plat for a crazy momentum shift.
0:29, you went for that jab into fair again. I can't really think of a situation against falcon where that's a good idea at the % when jab won't cause knock down. He ended up shield grabbing you for it, but that was some jank **** lol (dat spot dodge), I can't really say anything that you could have done to prevent that except maybe to space the fair better (I still suck at this too).
0:32, he grabbed you and opted for the f throw. I'm sure this was a mistake because d throw obviously would have been better for him. At your percent, you didn't go very far and this, unfortunately doesn't leave ganon's slow ass in many offensive positions (high ftilt would not have come out in time), so best go on the defense. Falcon has a few options. He can jump away and do some platform stuff, come in with a nair or come in with a knee. 99/100, he will nair you, so get ready to crouch cancel. You can jab after this or grab (situational). At this percent, it'd definitely be better than shield because you can counter attack, unless he went for the knee (which, when CC'd at this % wouldn't really lead into anything).
0:44, you had him in his shield because you were in SH fair range. This is fantastic. Falcon has the same terrible oos options as ganon does. You're giving him so much room by double jumping up. You could either just fair the shield (I think your space was out of shield grab range) or done some empty hop shenanigans.
0:45, you power shielded his stomp. I noticed that that pink shield came up for a little bit and then threw out the bair- not fast enough vs falcon. If you threw it out sooner, it may have connected or at least put him on his toes. Instead, he stood there and went in for the grab, which brings me to another point. There are some spacings when a SHFF auto cancel bair into tilt/jab is good, but not in this one... I guess it's hard to explain. But when he's looking right at you, he can definitely come in and grab you out of it before you even land. In this case, you may have wanted to DJ and get on the platform.
But, he grabbed, tech chased, and got ahead of himself and lost the stock... Lol typical falcon.
0:56, that moonwalk. Nice, but not a good move choice haha. I would say just waveland and tilt. It would have connected because he was DDing in your range and didn't know it.
0:58, that stomp. You must have known after you did it that it had no chance of hitting. I would have just ran off the platform to gain center stage and threw out a bair or something. But if you're feeling ballsy and still want to attack, instead of jumping and hoping to hit that dair, you can actually jump, fast fall through the platform and still get part of the uair hitbox out. Great option sometimes, especially when he did that random nair onto the stage nowhere near you. You were perfectly in range too and he was facing backwords. It may have made for a good move choice.
That stomp at 1:01 was mis-spaced and a fair may have been better anyway, but you know that.
Nice dash attack at 1:03. Great anti-air choice and I need to use it more as such. Now, I love to tilt after dash attack for walling purposes vs other characters, but since falcon will typically attack from the air, you may have to chance it into an upward angled ftilt. The up angle wouldn't have hit here, but he was still in his shield regardless. Tip of the tilt on shield = nice ganon pressure. You can tell that you got punished for that full hop bair.
Awesome tech at 1:16. There wasn't much of a counter attack available after the fact, so side-b was actually a really good choice. Ganon is just bad and you got punished anyway. Nothing you can do.
You used your double jump at 1:20, which, IMO, wasn't great. I would have saved it. At 1:21, when it's obvious like that that he's going to come out and attack you (likely because you didn't have a DJ), you could have used down b to outspace and counter attack. Risky, but it's an option.
1:24, great punishes and edge guards. Couldn't have done it any better. Very nice.
1:40, nice patience, not approaching recklessly and walling him out with that ftilt. You played the neutral really well until that shield grab at 1:45. But you didn't eat more than a few jabs, so no worries.
1:48, very nice. @Moy , remember what I told you about jabbing the back of the shield? You jab, it's safe, and you wait for the roll behind. Tm got a great stomp, until 1:51. The great question: will they tech this or can I sneak in a fair? I've thought about experimenting with a full hop fair in case of no time to tech and then a double jump uair to cover tech in place... can't say I've ever done this, but it would have worked here!
After that, it was a lot of rock, paper, scissors and you just lost this time. Unfortunate, but hey, it happens.
^Again, all of the above is simply constructive criticism from a less skilled player who happens to know the falcon matchup.
You can most definitely get him next time!
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
One instance where I think stomp is actually underused is when your opponent dj sweetspots the ledge. It's easier to time and space than the uair (uair takes slightly more precision) In most situations and the dj sweetspot is insanely easy to read. Its a shame it goes unpunished so often.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I always see him as a beatable player but why do i have to beat him with Ganon? lol. But the theory of a player equally skilled not able to 4 stock you is false, it happens at top level here and there and it just so happened to me in tournament this time. I 4 stocked him too before but i played out of my mind at the same time. It's hard to control 100% reads.
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Kage for the love of god keep playing Ganon against everyone. Who cares what sort of track record Bam has against your ganon, there's almost no reason that your falcon or marth will do better than your Ganon, the majority of your results and experience have gone into him.
You are Ganondorf
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Kage needs some serious tanning if I ever considered him Ganon. lol
Divinokage
Smash Legend
But it did do better than my Ganon! lol.. Does not compute this statement.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Alright so here's a question that came up while solo practicing:
What do you guys do from the ledge if Falco is on the side-platform ready to come down and bair you as soon as you ledge hop. What do you do in this situation? bait the bair? ledge-hop run off bair? ledge-hop retreating fair? ledge-hop invincible jab? ledge-hop run-off backflip waveland on the platform to get back to center stage and maybe bair/upair after getting off the platform? You can't really ledge-dash past it cause you'll likely get hit, and rolling isn't a good idea either cause Falco can just l-cancel the bair and then follow-up with a dash-attack or grab. I can think of several ways to handle this, but I haven't been able to test it out quite yet. Has me intrigued cause I know the distances that Ganon can do to Falco from the ledge when Falco is on the ground, I'm just not sure about when Falco is on a side-platform.
What do you guys do from the ledge if Falco is on the side-platform ready to come down and bair you as soon as you ledge hop. What do you do in this situation? bait the bair? ledge-hop run off bair? ledge-hop retreating fair? ledge-hop invincible jab? ledge-hop run-off backflip waveland on the platform to get back to center stage and maybe bair/upair after getting off the platform? You can't really ledge-dash past it cause you'll likely get hit, and rolling isn't a good idea either cause Falco can just l-cancel the bair and then follow-up with a dash-attack or grab. I can think of several ways to handle this, but I haven't been able to test it out quite yet. Has me intrigued cause I know the distances that Ganon can do to Falco from the ledge when Falco is on the ground, I'm just not sure about when Falco is on a side-platform.
Coastward
Smash Lord
you do nothing, you wait for him to make a move. if you know ledgedashing or rolling back on stage is risky, dont do it. just keep regrabbing until you see an opening.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
You can do all types of **** actually, if you're feeling bold a simple uair back onto the stage works wonders; you'll trade but you'll be relatively safe and trades for Falco never work in his favor, another thing you could try is a simple ledge hop jab or tilt; ledge dashing back onto the stage and f-tilt when you see the Falco descend from his jump or bring up your shield and then try for a shield grab. There's a lot of options you have against Falco, especially from the ledge. Ganon is a monster by the ledge lol.
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Ganon should never get punished while on the ledge lol. I get punished here a lot, but I really shouldn't. It's only because I have stupid habits and always waveland in. Caps, you can do a lot of things in any situation. Waveland in --> buffered roll is really good because, if you're frame perfect, the roll is actually invincible until the very end. Automatic center stage positioning. I find this tech is best used when falco spams lasers as a form of ledge pressure.
On the side platform? My favorite is just an empty RLD. Make him get out of there. They think you're coming onto the stage, but you're not. It works every damn time, people just can't get their heads around the fact that ganon can RLD and it looks more badass than falcon (YEA I SAID IT).
If you're feeling like styling, you can RLD --> edge cancelled dair / fair --> DJ waveland on platform --> pivot jab / grab or something silly like that. Not sure if it would ever work in a million years lol, but you'd basically win the match due to the badass factor.
Or, basically anything spidey said. He's a monster vs. falco, so that's gotta be legit. I never thought of doing the ledge hop uair for trading. I guess I always assumed trading wasn't the best at the ledge lol, but trading is just always awesome for dorf.
Maybe side b as another option? Ledge hop, wait for the bair, then side b to auto space you out of the range and counter attack? Side b from ledge can sometimes be a good mixup too. Leads to some nasty ass gimps.
@
Divinokage
, you're right. 4 stocks do happen all the time, aka mango vs leffen. Lol I never said you had to be ganon dude, I guess I'd just like to see it. As much as we all complain about ganon being terrible, he's really not that bad. Literally like 3-4 good reads in a row and that's a stock.
On the side platform? My favorite is just an empty RLD. Make him get out of there. They think you're coming onto the stage, but you're not. It works every damn time, people just can't get their heads around the fact that ganon can RLD and it looks more badass than falcon (YEA I SAID IT).
If you're feeling like styling, you can RLD --> edge cancelled dair / fair --> DJ waveland on platform --> pivot jab / grab or something silly like that. Not sure if it would ever work in a million years lol, but you'd basically win the match due to the badass factor.
Or, basically anything spidey said. He's a monster vs. falco, so that's gotta be legit. I never thought of doing the ledge hop uair for trading. I guess I always assumed trading wasn't the best at the ledge lol, but trading is just always awesome for dorf.
Maybe side b as another option? Ledge hop, wait for the bair, then side b to auto space you out of the range and counter attack? Side b from ledge can sometimes be a good mixup too. Leads to some nasty ass gimps.
@
Divinokage
, you're right. 4 stocks do happen all the time, aka mango vs leffen. Lol I never said you had to be ganon dude, I guess I'd just like to see it. As much as we all complain about ganon being terrible, he's really not that bad. Literally like 3-4 good reads in a row and that's a stock.Linguini
Smash Master
ledge hop down b da bess. pro tip: spam down b...I swear that **** works
spider_sense
Smash Champion
LOL Emilio last time I tried that, I got blown the **** up. Its a great mixup tho.
Don't worry Kage, I felt like Bam just played simplistic against you. Stay mid range and make sure you throw out tilts and jabs, you can also contest his bair with yours and obviously your will hurt a lot more lol. I'll rewatch the match so I can give you some proper critiquing. He shouldn't be getting away with that; at least not against a player of your caliber.
Don't worry Kage, I felt like Bam just played simplistic against you. Stay mid range and make sure you throw out tilts and jabs, you can also contest his bair with yours and obviously your will hurt a lot more lol. I'll rewatch the match so I can give you some proper critiquing. He shouldn't be getting away with that; at least not against a player of your caliber.
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