How good is my high school's smash "community"?

[BasicallyRyan]

Now I know we are no where near the level of apex players or even competitive tournament players in general, but I thought it would be interesting to get your opinions on the matter. This is GF at a tournament someone had a there house with around 30 people. The Falcon is undoubtedly our best player but the Doc is around top 10 area, he just got extremely lucky in winners. Please watch the Falcon play throughout all the sets to get an accurate representation of our community.
Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1uvQ3GDLcI

 

[dietsnapple89]

Not that good. Falcon kinda just dash dances far away from his opponent and then throws out a knee or nair and misses. If he connected on a hit, he didn't do many follows up except at like 5:15. Doc was just shooting pills. Honestly, both of these players looked unimpressive even by 2005 standards.

 

[kingPiano]

That Doc is atrocious, looks borderline casual.

The C. Falcon you can tell he's at least watched some tech videos and knows some fundamentals but there is no real foundation. Could have easily 4 stocked that Doc every match if he wasn't such a loose canon. Honestly if I was playing him I'd just evade him and wait for him to keep SD-ing until I win, seems entirely possible. I seriously think my Roy or Pichu would probably easily beat him....

 

[BasicallyRyan]

Honestly, thank you for your comment. Our community is extremely new, we've been playing to try and get better for around a incomplete year; most of the time was just learning basics and trying to figure out stuff on our own. I am very grateful that you commented because it gives a sense of perspective because people try to put them on pedestals.

 

[dietsnapple89]

If there's one thing I would tell your falcon friend, its to actually learn how to hit the opponent and which moves to use. Dash Dancing and fundamental tech skill is useful, but I don't think it matters much if you do not know which moves to use and timings of when to use them.

 

[BasicallyRyan]

And that just comes with playing more, right?

 

[kingPiano]

And that just comes with playing more, right?

Yes but I think Melee more than a lot of things requires perfect practice over just the traditional "practice makes perfect" motto

I played the game with friends for 8 years and I didn't learn anything really that could be carried into a competitive atmosphere. I was just a really good casual who knew what characters had which moves and which characters were better.

You have to study the meta that has been discovered since 2001: WD, DD, MU knowledge, platform movement, ledge games, DI, etc

The most important thing is just to play people better than you. There really is no substitute. You can only get better when you lose to more skilled players, and then learn every reason why you lost.

 

[Adam Centanni]

Dieses Video ist große Müllcontainer Scheiße in den Mund der Mutter. Jemand verdient dreizehnten Platz

 

[Dark_Crono]

And that just comes with playing more, right?

thats actually pretty normal in Falcon players and yes you need to play more and focus less in your game but that comes after feeling pretty natural with all the things you wanna do with your character so you can focus on the fight and not just doing your thing.

 

[MarthZ]

its good i don't know why doc didn't wave dash off the ledge and why falcon SD there but ya know its okay better than my smash community in my town
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[MudkipUniverse]

This falcon has atrocious spacing, and doesn't get the right attacks in at the right time. example, at 12:49, he gets off the ledge to do a knee (not even towards stage) and SD's, when I thought he would do a Uair towards Doc.

This Doc has bad movement. for example, I did not see a single wavedash the whole set. At 15:31, doc throws falcon off the edge. Doc could've either wavedashed to ledge or even just JUMPED to ledge if he couldn't wavedash. but instead he sat there and somehow let him recover and Uair him. Doc also spammed Ftilt, at least on game 6.

 

[MTGEL33T]

It seems you guys are focusing more on the tech skill aspect of the game. While it is useful to have that skill, it will not win you games on its own. When I first started I concentrated more on the fundamentals of the game then went to trying tech skill. Even though I'm still not that technical, I can take games from players who are clearly better with the controller than myself.

 

[BasicallyRyan]

It seems you guys are focusing more on the tech skill aspect of the game. While it is useful to have that skill, it will not win you games on its own. When I first started I concentrated more on the fundamentals of the game then went to trying tech skill. Even though I'm still not that technical, I can take games from players who are clearly better with the controller than myself.

Well how do you suggest we work on fundamentals. And you are right, the top members of our community, myself included, have been primarily working on our tech skill so we have a base for our gameplay to build from. The falcon is a good example of misguided potential, the case for most of us which is why we lose to people such as the doc. How would any of you recommend working on fundamentals? Or is it just off playing more

 

[kingPiano]

Well how do you suggest we work on fundamentals. And you are right, the top members of our community, myself included, have been primarily working on our tech skill so we have a base for our gameplay to build from. The falcon is a good example of misguided potential, the case for most of us which is why we lose to people such as the doc. How would any of you recommend working on fundamentals? Or is it just off playing more

Yea just playing more, but playing against people that are better than you. That's literally the only way to get better at a competitive level. It's also the fastest way if you're a quick study and you're intelligent enough to pick up on patterns > come to conclusions > and incorporate solutions.

Try and play in a minimal, efficient manner (watch Borp he is an amazing example: minimal tech, frustratingly efficient). Substance before style, you need to master knowing what moves and movement you should use and where, and on what stages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE4cni6wLg
The above is a perfect example of someone (Mundungu) who learned tech before they even knew the fundamentals of their character and the match-up. He's just slip sliding around and jumping like a mad man, but it's not helping him at all. It's a lot of flash and button pressing but not much results or damage output.

When you try and learn too fast you can end up getting worse and worse because you're basically half-a**ing everything instead of mastering something then mastering the next thing and so on. And when you play bad people or people of the same skill level you can get away with a LOT of noob stuff that wont work on high level play, it develops bad habits and those bad habits become muscle memory.

Once you get the foundation set then add in all the advanced movement and incorporate it into play. Another important aspect in high level play is never do the same thing twice unless you're conditioning your opponent. Mango is so successful and scary to play against becuase he's unpredictable. No one ever can read him because he has no habits or tendencies like almost all other players (even M2K) But he wisely chooses to intentionally repeat some behaviors to trick the opponent into a hard read, at that point he'll changes his tactics completely and punish.

 

[MTGEL33T]

Well how do you suggest we work on fundamentals. And you are right, the top members of our community, myself included, have been primarily working on our tech skill so we have a base for our gameplay to build from. The falcon is a good example of misguided potential, the case for most of us which is why we lose to people such as the doc. How would any of you recommend working on fundamentals? Or is it just off playing more

When your in a match, pay attention to the actions/attacks/defenses of your opponents. See what they are doing, keep a close eye on it, and find the most efficient way to stop them. For example, my cousin mains Falco and he would chase me to the sides of the stages (I play Sheik btw) then he stopped doing so once I had dealt with his BS enough to easy gimp him a lot of the time. Adapting and knowing each character's limits are the key.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I don't get what makes these guys tech skill based.

the doc player didn't do a single wavedash. also spammed ftilt for some reason. seemed to have some sort of fundamentals
the falcon player has crap (SOOOOOO BAD) spacing. which I guess is fundamentals. "fundamentals" is pretty broad to me.

 

[kingPiano]

I don't get what makes these guys tech skill based.

the doc player didn't do a single wavedash. also spammed ftilt for some reason. seemed to have some sort of fundamentals
the falcon player has crap (SOOOOOO BAD) spacing. which I guess is fundamentals. "fundamentals" is pretty broad to me.

Well yes as we we're saying initially the Doc is borderline casual looking, no tech or advanced movement really (using wrong moves and spamming)

But the Falcon you can tell he was trying to force in tech and wave dashes but poorly incorporating them. It's quite obvious he tried to learn too fast.

I agree fundamentals can mean very different things depending on how far advanced you are in technique.

To me it means:

1. Beginner: When you first start out just knowing spacing of moves and which moves you should use where and when (and on which characters). Edge guarding and stage control.
2. Intermediate: WD, DD, Platform movement, ledge mastery, common character tech, advanced aggressive edge-guarding and pressure, combo knowledge and advanced match-up knowledge.
3. High-level: Mind games, conditioning, pacing, reading, deep character tech, inventing and creating new unique technology/combos and a sculpting a style of your own.

I think for most people you should never jump to the next level until you've mastered or are comfortable with the level you're at. Of course playing as many high level people as you can might jumble all these in learning order but if you're smart you can absorb it all at once and not become inundated.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

looks like they aren't at beginner yet, then.

Your tiers for fundamentals I don't think have to be followed in order by tier, but show how advanced each fundamental will be to practice. or at least for me.

also at a 30 PERSON TOURNAMENT this was grand finals..... I actually think I could've won a tournament if I went to your high school. And I haven't even been to high school yet (I'm one of the youngest at my smash scene).

 

[ItsChon]

I don't know why you picked that video to highlight your High School scene. I checked your channel out of curiosity, and this one wasn't to bad tbh. A couple things were a bit flubby tech skill wise, but it wasn't bad.

I mean, a glimmer of hope could be seen in this one. Both of them have fairly decent movement with their DD and WD as well as some WL's thrown in there. The Falco had some decent comboing ability and the Marth knew when to throw out his tilts. I mean, they are a bit fluby with their tech skill, and the Marth particularly had a habit of throwing out FSmashes in neutral that missed a lot which isn't a good thing. These guys in your neighborhood too?

Edit: Also, tell the Marth to stop approaching with NAirs. Marths should never use NAirs outside of combos and certain other situations. If you want to approaching using aerials, your best bet is to SHFFL FAirs. Also, they should really try to cut down on the rolling. Obviously it's necessary sometimes, but the less you do it the better. It makes you really predictable.

Edit 2: Oh, and do they know what DI is? I mainly saw this with the Marth, but it looked like their DI was nonexistent. Dying to Fsmashes from Falco that he had no business dieing to.

 

[isril]

much performance and dedication in the community also will be alot of you looking for a good competitive level all I can say is do not be discouraged and practice I wish them luck

 

[BasicallyRyan]

I don't know why you picked that video to highlight your High School scene. I checked your channel out of curiosity, and this one wasn't to bad tbh. A couple things were a bit flubby tech skill wise, but it wasn't bad.

I mean, a glimmer of hope could be seen in this one. Both of them have fairly decent movement with their DD and WD as well as some WL's thrown in there. The Falco had some decent comboing ability and the Marth knew when to throw out his tilts. I mean, they are a bit fluby with their tech skill, and the Marth particularly had a habit of throwing out FSmashes in neutral that missed a lot which isn't a good thing. These guys in your neighborhood too?

Interesting you chose that game, but thank you for looking beyond the game I posted. For all who are wondering, the doc got to that position in winners by only killing people with capes, for the most part. Also, if Any of you look at the Falco vs Falcon game, leading to that game in losers finals. The quality of gameplay was much better and I encourage you all to check it out. This game was interesting because the Marth was only playing marth because "there was not enough hype to play his main, peach." He and the Falcon (from the initial video) are probably the two best players we have. Thank you all for your posts, it has come as a great help in knowing what to practice and trying to get better.


Edit 1: we are in the same school district but since our school district is rather large, it takes a 10-20 minute drive to get to someone's house. Not to mention the problems of not having a car at the time and other additional issues.

 

[MTGEL33T]

Interesting you chose that game, but thank you for looking beyond the game I posted. For all who are wondering, the doc got to that position in winners by only killing people with capes, for the most part. Also, if Any of you look at the Falco vs Falcon game, leading to that game in losers finals. The quality of gameplay was much better and I encourage you all to check it out. This game was interesting because the Marth was only playing marth because "there was not enough hype to play his main, peach." He and the Falcon (from the initial video) are probably the two best players we have. Thank you all for your posts, it has come as a great help in knowing what to practice and trying to get better.


Edit 1: we are in the same school district but since our school district is rather large, it takes a 10-20 minute drive to get to someone's house. Not to mention the problems of not having a car at the time and other additional issues.

Tell that Falco I have faith in him. Keep it up and he could be pretty good.

 

[BasicallyRyan]

Here is the link to the game I was talking about if anyone was interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqymY9Hqp_E

 

[LiquidFreedom]

lol Ryan what about the part where you tell them that the Falcon is actually a Marth main?

 

[ChrispyCrunch]

Another member of this scene checking in. The Doc in the first game Ryan posted literally hasn't played Smash in six months, we're all just too garbage to beat the cape.
Also, there aren't really any standout players at our school we can face off against to learn from. All of the top 8 or so are around the skill level of the Falco you saw when not sick/playing a secondary/etc. How can we go about trying to improve our game then? It seems everybody is saying you have to play against people better than you.

 

[MTGEL33T]

Another member of this scene checking in. The Doc in the first game Ryan posted literally hasn't played Smash in six months, we're all just too garbage to beat the cape.
Also, there aren't really any standout players at our school we can face off against to learn from. All of the top 8 or so are around the skill level of the Falco you saw when not sick/playing a secondary/etc. How can we go about trying to improve our game then? It seems everybody is saying you have to play against people better than you.

That makes it a lot more difficult. I know the pain. Best you can do is just try to keep getting better with each other.

 

[ItsChon]

Another member of this scene checking in. The Doc in the first game Ryan posted literally hasn't played Smash in six months, we're all just too garbage to beat the cape.
Also, there aren't really any standout players at our school we can face off against to learn from. All of the top 8 or so are around the skill level of the Falco you saw when not sick/playing a secondary/etc. How can we go about trying to improve our game then? It seems everybody is saying you have to play against people better than you.

Well, just from watching the game's there are a few things you can do. Keep on grinding out that tech skill is one. I know it's repetitive but there really are tons of specific things that each of you guys can be doing depending on the main. I mean, I didn't see either the Marth or the Falco pivot once in the video. There were a few missed L-Cancels, and they can work on their edge guarding. That's just to say a few things. Keep on practicing and playing friendlies. A lot of it is game sense. People don't seem to realize that before Melee was even a thing, SSB64 had its own competitive scene with much less tech skill then Melee. When you lost there, it wasn't because someone knew some sort of magical tech that you didn't, it was because they could just PLAY the game better. Learning what to do when a specific scenario comes up, shielding at the right time, carrying combos over. You literally have to keep playing.

TL;DR - Grind that tech skill out, and keep playing with each other consistently. All you guys will make each other better. I'm jelly of because I don't even have close to the community you guys have in my immediate area.

 

[Nagy]

Hey guys, I am the falcon in the video. Yes I know I am pretty terrible, however I would just like to let you know, my actual main is Marth. I can actually follow up and my spacing is much better, at least I think so. I didn't play Marth in this tournament to show that I could win without him, as everyone seems to get mad when I play Marth because I can edgeguard decently. If there are any more tips for falcon, I would love to hear them, and thanks for your feedback.

 

[LiquidFreedom]

the king has spoken! :grovel:

 

[ItsChon]

Hey guys, I am the falcon in the video. Yes I know I am pretty terrible, however I would just like to let you know, my actual main is Marth. I can actually follow up and my spacing is much better, at least I think so. I didn't play Marth in this tournament to show that I could win without him, as everyone seems to get mad when I play Marth because I can edgeguard decently. If there are any more tips for falcon, I would love to hear them, and thanks for your feedback.

Falcon? Dunno, now Marth. I might be able to help you there.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

@ ItsChon Is marth's nair not to be used much because they can shield grab? because if so, maybe in some situations you can stay back far enough to not get grabbed.
Also, I don't think pivoting is that good at this level. At high level it may be useful, but it really isn't worth learning unless you are using a certain character.
-------------------------------------------------------------

question: are Nova and Weston your 2 other best players?

 

[Nagy]

@ ItsChon Is marth's nair not to be used much because they can shield grab? because if so, maybe in some situations you can stay back far enough to not get grabbed.
Also, I don't think pivoting is that good at this level. At high level it may be useful, but it really isn't worth learning unless you are using a certain character.
-------------------------------------------------------------

question: are Nova and Weston your 2 other best players?

We have a top five who attend the school, however we do know graduates of our high school that are decent as well. However, from top to bottom of the top five who currently go to our school, It would probably be Me, Then Nova (when he plays as Peach), then Weston, then a fox main named Jbaby, then BasicallyRyan. Those are who are considered top 5.

 

[ItsChon]

We have a top five who attend the school, however we do know graduates of our high school that are decent as well. However, from top to bottom of the top five who currently go to our school, It would probably be Me, Then Nova (when he plays as Peach), then Weston, then a fox main named Jbaby, then BasicallyRyan. Those are who are considered top 5.

Can we see some videos of you and the other guys on their mains?

@ ItsChon Is marth's nair not to be used much because they can shield grab? because if so, maybe in some situations you can stay back far enough to not get grabbed.
Also, I don't think pivoting is that good at this level. At high level it may be useful, but it really isn't worth learning unless you are using a certain character.
-------------------------------------------------------------

question: are Nova and Weston your 2 other best players?

Just one of the reasons why Marths Nair shouldn't be used. I could explain to you why it'd bad, but I'll just quote Dr. PeePee and let him do the work.

So weird.....this may be the first time I've ever seen the Marth boards promote Nair. Interesting trend.

To offer an alternative Nair perspective:

Nair is easy to exploit because the first hit is pretty worthless and the second hit takes a while to come out AND is only a small hitbox. Getting on Marth's head or under Marth beats Nair handily, and it means that Marth moving forward with Nair at all leaves him quite vulnerable. M2K wrecked Ken with Fox by waiting for the Nair and then DD grabbing him over and over. It's actually really funny to watch LOL.

Who would attempt to CC Marth in general? I don't see much exploitation of CC'ing like I used to(except with Sami or Peaches lol).

There are more on the thread really, and where and why you should use the Nair.

 

[kingPiano]

Hey guys, I am the falcon in the video. Yes I know I am pretty terrible, however I would just like to let you know, my actual main is Marth. I can actually follow up and my spacing is much better, at least I think so. I didn't play Marth in this tournament to show that I could win without him, as everyone seems to get mad when I play Marth because I can edgeguard decently. If there are any more tips for falcon, I would love to hear them, and thanks for your feedback.

Falcon is such an unwieldy character, but I'm sure you already know the advice we'd give you.

1. SD less
2. More Knees (Grabs into Knees, and Dair into Knees)

It makes sense now, it did seem like it wasn't a main just from the spacing/movement/SD issues. A much different character than Marth in pretty much every way.

 

[LiquidFreedom]

We should get some good matches in on Friday. That will be our first "serous" touney in a year (one that isn't just at someone's house) so people will be trying. Also, money matches. You'll probably see a thread from Chrispycrunch or Ryan asking why a baddie stole their money.

 

[VapeGod420]

The big issue with all these players is their tech skill becomes almost unnecessary when you realize that none of them have any foundation. Falcon wavedashes in random directions and doesn't fully utilize his kit. We'll have to see the video from Friday to fully analyze the plays. I'm definetly interested in seeing you guys play your mains. Keep up the good work!

 

[ChrispyCrunch]

Calling bull**** on Nagy's tier list. Ryan is not even remotely number five, that spot is mine. Playing him on Friday so I can officially hold it. And I think you guys are right, we all try to grind out tech skill because we can't play with anybody at our skill level more than once every couple weeks or so. We're getting decent at pressing buttons, just don't always know what the right ones are.

Edit: Ryan got 13th

 

[ItsChon]

Yea that's something that a lot of people actually move over. I mean, you can know all the techs in the world, but can beat by a guy who can't even Wavedash (Ken bby) due to him just using the flaws in your play. If you can DD perfectly like a god, but don't know the uses of what DD is for, it won't help you for ****. I'll just run up to you and Poke you with a DTilt, or SHFFL you, or whatever I want to do. Same thing for all advanced techs. Don't get to ahead of yourself.

 

[JTeeJohnson]

Here is the link to the game I was talking about if anyone was interested.

Looks like you guys definitely need to get down some mechanics. It'll be interesting to see what happens when you guys play your mains. Post a link when you get a chance. Overall I think your community is definitely impressive. It's nice to see people encouraging others to get into the game...and who doesn't like some friendly competition

 

[TangoMango13]

Interesting you chose that game, but thank you for looking beyond the game I posted. For all who are wondering, the doc got to that position in winners by only killing people with capes, for the most part. Also, if Any of you look at the Falco vs Falcon game, leading to that game in losers finals. The quality of gameplay was much better and I encourage you all to check it out. This game was interesting because the Marth was only playing marth because "there was not enough hype to play his main, peach." He and the Falcon (from the initial video) are probably the two best players we have. Thank you all for your posts, it has come as a great help in knowing what to practice and trying to get better.


Edit 1: we are in the same school district but since our school district is rather large, it takes a 10-20 minute drive to get to someone's house. Not to mention the problems of not having a car at the time and other additional issues.

I think It'll be interesting to see you guys progress as time goes on. Definitely keep us posted on how additional tournaments go. We're always here to help the community!