Social General Ice Climber Chat

[DerfMidWest]

ICs invincible ledge stuff is balls, so I'm not really sure about that one. It would probably be frame perfect if it does actually work.

 

[OddishGuy]

ICs invincible ledge stuff is balls, so I'm not really sure about that one. It would probably be frame perfect if it does actually work.

You're right :D
If done frame perfectly the Up-B ledge stall is completely invulnerable (I must have been doing the FF incorrectly when I tested this a while back).
Ledge-grab
7 frames (can't let go)
FF down
5 frames
Up-B

Any sooner of later than 5 frames gives you vulnerability. (I would think you'd be able to do it earlier and FF the Up-B as you fall but it does not seem possible.)


I'm still trying the hax-dash but I can't get it to be invincible and I'd be surprised if it's possible. It does look pretty cool though, even without the invincibility.

EDIT: My post looked bonkers for a second there...

 

[DerfMidWest]

the hax dash still has applications even without being invulnerable, you just can't use it as freely as you would if it were.

 

[OddishGuy]

the hax dash still has applications even without being invulnerable, you just can't use it as freely as you would if it were.

I've enjoyed hax-dashing with the likes of Samus and it's definitely a neato bait, but Popo's is not only very vulnerable, but also very slow and obvious, making the usage of a bait more unviable.
Might be a fun mix-up though if you just use it once in a set. Getting an opponent to swing near the ledge when you have a good ledge-dash is always amazing.

If nothing else I learned that the Up-B stall is real and I already love that :D

 

[Kyu Puff]

I've enjoyed hax-dashing with the likes of Samus and it's definitely a neato bait, but Popo's is not only very vulnerable, but also very slow and obvious, making the usage of a bait more unviable.
Might be a fun mix-up though if you just use it once in a set. Getting an opponent to swing near the ledge when you have a good ledge-dash is always amazing.

If nothing else I learned that the Up-B stall is real and I already love that :D

Are you sure it's vulnerable? I've never tried haxdashing with Popo so I have no idea what the timing would be like, but I doubt Kadano would say it was possible unless he tested it and was sure. It might be another frame perfect type deal.

 

[OddishGuy]

Are you sure it's vulnerable? I've never tried haxdashing with Popo so I have no idea what the timing would be like, but I doubt Kadano would say it was possible unless he tested it and was sure. It might be another frame perfect type deal.

Well there's kind of two ways to do it. If you drop down pretty far, DJ, and then Hax-dash it's a lot easier. The further you drop down the slower Popo will be rising up when he gets above the stage making the Hax-dash easier, but the further you drop down the more time used and the more vulnerable it becomes.

If you try to DJ sooner and hax-dash that way (like can easily be done for Falcon and Samus and so on) you should be able to get an invulnerable hax-dash. HOWEVER, I only have the means to go frame by frame, I can't TAS or anything special so my WD back angle isn't the perfect angle. I have tried to get the invulnerable Hax-dash multiple times but I have either air-dodged off the stage or air dodged straight down. It's plausible the hax-dash requires the perfect angle and I'm just unable to access it. With this in mind and me being the total downer I am, I would say that invulnerable hax-dashing is not at all practical even if it is possible.

 

[xKobayashi]

Sup dude, you ever get out to Socal regionals? I just started playing again recently so I don't think we've been at any of the same tournaments, but if it happens we should play some dittos

I go to like 3 tournaments a year so I'll send you a message next time I go to one.
I love the ditto, cant wait to play haha. I was watching videos of your ic's, very solid. I wish I could be as consistent as you with my movement.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

The Ice Climbers are definitely my favorite character, and I always find myself coming back to them regardless of how much I change and improve my mains. I'm finding, however, that I'm really bad at playing them. I can go into the lab and crank out some cool stuff, but I'm terrible at actually playing as them; though I've put a lot of effort into playing as them, I just can't seem to get it to work. I still win games with them simply because I'm way better than the people I regularly play with, but my Ice Climbers do pretty badly relative to my other, "good" characters.

It's kind of frustrating. But the difficulty in playing them adds to the luster.

 

[cheesestalker]

the ice climbers is good because of the way you can just lock-down your opponents and it really makes it amazing and you dont have to put alot of work as much as fox or luigi mains

 

[_Snover_]

Is it okay to post videos here? Not sure if this is the right place.
I played at a small tourney on Thursday and I feel like I could've done much better, but I can't put my finger on what I did wrong. Can anyone help me out?

http://www.twitch.tv/jacecomix/b/639011673

Match 1 @ 15:50
Match 2 @ 20:00
Match 3 @ 25:50
--
Match 1 @ 38:05
Match 2 @ 40:15

 

[xKobayashi]

The Ice Climbers are definitely my favorite character, and I always find myself coming back to them regardless of how much I change and improve my mains. I'm finding, however, that I'm really bad at playing them. I can go into the lab and crank out some cool stuff, but I'm terrible at actually playing as them; though I've put a lot of effort into playing as them, I just can't seem to get it to work. I still win games with them simply because I'm way better than the people I regularly play with, but my Ice Climbers do pretty badly relative to my other, "good" characters.

It's kind of frustrating. But the difficulty in playing them adds to the luster.

Hey aren't you the guy that makes all the ridiculous/amazing melee hack videos?!?!?

When I first started playing Ice Climbers, I constantly found myself in situations that I felt were out of control, or that my character could not deal with, but I quickly started learning where and why this character succeeds. My advice would be to build from the ground up:

1) do not rely on down-smash to net you kills, downs should only be used as (a) hard punish on a tech chase, spot dodge or roll, or (b) a very good read on your opponents movement. Simply throwing out down-smash in desperation should never be optimal

2) learn how to play defense. Wave-dash out of shield is amazing, it makes your character because you never want to be in shield as any character, but you will often find yourself blocking to prevent nana from getting separated.

3) try not to wave-dash forward too often, or at least be very smart about it. You are vulnerable for several frames while wave-dashing forward, and a lot of the times ice climbers get hit are when they try to wave-dash forward too often. The main options I use if I do wave-dash forward is (a) jab or (b) into my shield only to keep my opponent honest in neutral

4) learn up-air. Up-air is (imo) ice climbers ticket to surviving 20xx. Learn when it is safe to full hop up air. Learn how to auto cancel up air from a wave-dash, out of shield, to cover platforms. Up-air is one of my biggest weaknesses as an ic and something I actively look to get better at.

there is obviously much more to it. But these are some mistakes I made myself when i was learning

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was practicing the pivot jump desynch today; it's pretty easy with Ice Blocks but harder with Blizzard for some reason. When I try to pivot jump Blizzard I usually just end up doing it with both Ice Climbers. But it's interesting--when you pivot before a jump Nana moves backwards a little bit, so if an opponent manages to attack through your Blizzard, they might still end up getting caught in Nana's (kind of like jumping towards projectiles to desynch). At low percent this might be a sneaky way to set up grabs.


Also, I'm messing around with this mix-up for shield pressure:

1. Late b-air -> turnaround grab
2. Late b-air -> Popo d-smash (via l-cancel desynch) -> Nana turnaround grab

If executed perfectly, there are 4 frames when the opponent is out of shield stun before the grab hitbox comes out (in either situation), but only 2 frames before Popo's d-smash. So, there are very few out of shield options which can beat the grab; most characters will be forced to spotdodge or buffer a roll away. But if you d-smash instead of grabbing, you can catch their roll before it becomes invincible; and if they continue to shield you get another chance to grab (albeit with Nana).

Another option I haven't tried yet is to start charging a smash with Nana to bait a roll, and then either release the smash and grab during the shield stun, or follow the roll to get a grab with Popo.

 

[IC-Rambler]

The Ice Climbers are definitely my favorite character, and I always find myself coming back to them regardless of how much I change and improve my mains. I'm finding, however, that I'm really bad at playing them. I can go into the lab and crank out some cool stuff, but I'm terrible at actually playing as them; though I've put a lot of effort into playing as them, I just can't seem to get it to work. I still win games with them simply because I'm way better than the people I regularly play with, but my Ice Climbers do pretty badly relative to my other, "good" characters.

It's kind of frustrating. But the difficulty in playing them adds to the luster.

I'm pretty much in the same position as you haha. It doesn't help that I'm in a rather melee-barren part of Texas. Off to college next year, however, so I can refine my lab creation against actual forces. So when are we going to see an IC video hmm?

 

[Smog]

Today I was messing around and while Marth was laying on the ground I f-tilted and hit him for 7%, but no knockback. Was that just a phantom hit?

 

[DerfMidWest]

guys I suck at IC dittos plz help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YXHbplJI9E

what I figured out just from watching this a couple times was that I got real over reliant on wd->dsmash and I wasn't abusing when I separated them enough.
I think I figured the mu out a lot more by game 3, but this set was a lot more stressful than it needed to be.

Also I think bthrow is really good for separating in this mu once I condition him to shield my wd dsmashes, but I didn't do that at all in this set.

I won the tourney tho.

 

[Cervidae]

guys I suck at IC dittos plz help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YXHbplJI9E

what I figured out just from watching this a couple times was that I got real over reliant on wd->dsmash and I wasn't abusing when I separated them enough.
I think I figured the mu out a lot more by game 3, but this set was a lot more stressful than it needed to be.

Also I think bthrow is really good for separating in this mu once I condition him to shield my wd dsmashes, but I didn't do that at all in this set.

I won the tourney tho.

The way I play the ditto is to find a point of separation between the Climbers and make sure that they don't get back together. A lot of you're wave dash approaches got snuffed by down smashes in the first two games, but you did adapt well for game three.

B-throw is very good for separating the Climbers, I didn't see too much of it this set, but you already pointed that out so I won't harp on you about it.

I don't think down smash is as good as people make it out to be in the ditto. Sure, it has it's applications like when you manage to squeeze between them, but other than that I'd just op for a quick b-throw if the opportunity presented itself. It's still pretty good though.

I'm also not a huge fan of blizzard walls in the match up, as they can be easily cc'd, making it pretty hard to punish off of it, but then again I'll admit that this is purely a personal preference, as I can reason why it would be good in the match up. It just doesn't create as many openings as it does in other match ups, due to Nana being able to protect Popo if grabbed and vice-versa.

Also, from what I've gathered from playing the ditto a whopping two times, f-air seems really safe on shield. I manage to get a lot of shield pokes with it, but since I haven't tested it out too extensively I'm pensive to advise using it.

Good job on the confusion tech by picking the white Nana to match your opponents; that's a good way to confuse the lesser experienced player. /s

Good job on winning the tournament, Derf!

On a side note, I think someone should start a video critique thread...

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't think down smash is as good as people make it out to be in the ditto. Sure, it has it's applications like when you manage to squeeze between them, but other than that I'd just op for a quick b-throw if the opportunity presented itself. It's still pretty good though.

I think d-smash is situational. If you've already worked up some damage on either Nana or Popo, it's a fast move with high knockback that will send them different distances and can be the turning point in a stock. If they're at low/mid percent and there's no percent differential, then it's not the best.

In general synched grabs are one of the strongest punishes. You can wait to see where Nana throws, and then either throw or smash the other IC in the opposite direction. Or, if your Popo has grabbed the opponent's Popo, you can try to go for an infinite. Nana will mostly just run around and get smacked by f-tilt (although the extra hitlag might give your opponent a chance to escape, in which case you can Wobble until Nana runs toward you and then smash them both away).

I'm still learning this match-up myself, but from what I've observed, a lot of IC players will try to wall you out with Blizzard and Ice Blocks, even when it's 2v2. In this situation I would just create some space by shooting synched Ice Blocks, then take control of center stage. You don't have to run into the Blizzard, and you can leverage the positional advantage to bait an approach or jump, which is when you'll get the cleanest damage.

Personally I haven't gotten a lot of mileage out of Blizzard in this match-up. Synched grabs are safer than grabs with only Popo (which can be punished out of shield if you happen to grab their Nana), and synched smashes are better than solo smashes. I've also found that it's pretty easy to predict when the opponent will Blizzard, which you can use to your advantage by getting above or behind them to bait a shield.

Edit: Of course, the Blizzard walling/camping strategy works much better versus solo Popo, who can't camp back and is at a huge disadvantage approaching dual ICs.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Thanks for the advice guys, and yeah we definitely need a video critique thread. This place gets way too cluttered and a lot of times videos get over looked.

I wish I had more experience in the matchup, this was like the second time I've ever played it in tournament. But I'm doing a lot of theory crafting and whatnot right now, which I think is the way to go since I can't get consistent practice in it.

One thing I'm really liking the idea of is conditioning to shield via wd dsmash then grabbing with popo, and having nana nair or fair in front of me to keep me safe/force a knockdown while I bthrow whatever I'm holding.

I also think I'm a big fan of ftilt, l-cancel, and shieldstun desyncs in this mu, however I think it's one where it pays off a lot more to be synced in neutral unless I have the lead, in which case desynced Ice blocks get a lot more mileage than blizzard walls.

Ftilt and bair also just seem godlike in the MU, making me like walk and wavelands a lot more than just approaching with wd.

hopefully they upload more of my sets later, particularly WF and GF, because I'd like to rewatch those and get them critiqued as well, but right now all they've uploaded are this set and my set from winners-semis, where I just **** around the whole time so it doesn't actually help me that much to rewatch it.

 

[OddishGuy]

Alright IC mains, brace yourselves for the most relevant information you have ever heard about.
If you turn around D-smash you hit with Popo 1 frame before you hit with Nana's D-smash in whatever direction you turned towards.
I can hear you now "But wait OddishGuy, every IC main and their grandma know this info."
Well hush up and let me tell you how crazy this thing is.

Everybody is worrying about that 20XX phenomenon?!? Well worry no more, even if someone is TAS we can own those fools now.
Imagine some Spacie player bragging about how they can shine to evade a move and punish the lag with another shine because they have INSANE reaction time! Now imagine slapping that spacie player in the face!
They probably blocked it because of their INSANE reaction time. BUT WAIT, your girl comes out of nowhere and slaps the unprepared fool! That is what this double D-smash is!

"But OddishGuy, I don't believe in 20XX so this doesn't apply to me."
Well if you're not ready for the future let's bring you to the past where dinosaurs rule and aMSa slays all. All except for us, because we have double D-smash!
If you regular smash a DJing Yoshi like a true pleb you give that flying dino 3 frames to bust out that Nair! 3 frames is a nice way of saying "Eat Yoshi foot ******!"
But with this instant double D-smash that Yoshi has -2 frames to bust out a Nair. "WTH do -2 frames look like?" you may ask. Looks like a dead dino, not soon to be revived unless some Jurassic park ish comes about.


TL;DR I've been worrying about the Yoshi matchup a bit. If you space turn around D-smash it beats any attempts at DJ armoring through your assault. Makes for an edgeguard on rising Yoshi a little before 40% as they get knocked away by Nana's hit.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Wobbles actually posted about that along time ago, but he suggested using it in the opposite direction. If you turnaround so Popo is facing away from the opponent, it staggers the hitboxes more than usual, "extending" the move's duration. Potentially useful for punishing spotdodges because you're less likely to whiff during their invulnerability.

Spent literally all night in the lab; found some interesting (and hopefully new) info. Will probably post about it tomorrow. It has minor implications on the Yoshi match-up.

 

[OddishGuy]

Wobbles actually posted about that along time ago, but he suggested using it in the opposite direction. If you turnaround so Popo is facing away from the opponent, it staggers the hitboxes more than usual, "extending" the move's duration. Potentially useful for punishing spotdodges because you're less likely to whiff during their invulnerability.

Spent literally all night in the lab; found some interesting (and hopefully new) info. Will probably post about it tomorrow. It has minor implications on the Yoshi match-up.

Turn away D-smash should pretty much always be used, even as Sopo, as you save frames since the back hitbox comes out a couple frames faster.
Catching dodges and further protecting yourself from punishment with Nana's late hitbox is also super nice and pretty much necessitates this.

Turn-towards D-smash is pretty much the worst D-smash you can use hitbox timing wise, but it does annihilate that super armor!

I'm still mindlessly worrying about the matchup (egg-lay plz ;_; ) so I'm excited to see what you come up with :D

 

[Kyu Puff]

Turn away D-smash should pretty much always be used, even as Sopo, as you save frames since the back hitbox comes out a couple frames faster.
Catching dodges and further protecting yourself from punishment with Nana's late hitbox is also super nice and pretty much necessitates this.

Turn-towards D-smash is pretty much the worst D-smash you can use hitbox timing wise, but it does annihilate that super armor!

I'm still mindlessly worrying about the matchup (egg-lay plz ;_; ) so I'm excited to see what you come up with :D

Well, yes, though often you might approach facing backwards so both d-smashes hit with the earlier hitbox. Also, if you wavedash facing forward and use the turnaround hitbox, you can actually desynch by using a smash turn rather than a "soft" turnaround, which will cause Popo to d-smash and Nana to dash backwards. Worse on hit (since you get half the damage) but safer on block/dodge.

And unfortunately, the mechanic only has minor implications. But I'd be happy to talk about the Yoshi match-up, as I believe it's solidly in ICs favor. (I haven't played aMSa, though, so my opinion could be misguided.)

I also learned some things about the Samus match-up that I might post about.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

aMSa is a million times better than any Yoshi you would have ever played in Socal or New England. For what it's worth, I expect ICs to win as well, although I'm personally incompetent in the MU.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I have a lot of ideas about the matchup.
My experience is more limited than I'd like for it to be, but I've played a few decent mid-level yoshis who I don't consider that far off from myself skill wise.
Kofi, a very technical up and coming yoshi from pittsburgh is one who particularly interests me. I seem to give him a fair amount of trouble from the few games we've played though.

Ive noticed I definitely prefer being synced in neutral most of the time against yoshi. However its useful to use nana's blizzard to bait yoshi into using his double jump to go through it and hit nana, then upsmashing to pop him up above you without a jump.

I feel as though egg lay is very fraudulent as well. If he grabs nana, you can just wavedash forward and grab (or smash if he does dj turn around neutral b, which a lot of yoshis do, again knocking him away without a jump).
Im a fan of bthrow after grabbing yoshi out of this (after like 30-40 or something when neutral DI gets him out of sopo's cg) because it just gets him out of the way and gives nana a chance to break out.

By the ledge is kind of scary because egg lay will kill nana at very low percent, but yoshi is cornering himself and blizzard forces him to the ledge, where desynced climbers can make egg stalling very dangerous. If nana isn't spaced correctly with blizzard/ice block he can neutral b from the edge and kill her, but if you react properly you can make that cost him his stock by edge hogging it.

There was some other stuff I was thinking about too, but I forget right now.

Overall, I think the mu is not bad for ICs, probably in their favor, but I don't have the results to prove that.

 

[Kyu Puff]

@ Fly_Amanita A while back you said that you were working on a rest punish that might be better than charge smash -> grab. I saw your inescapable wobble setup for missed tether grabs and can't help but think it might be related. Is it something like desynch into Nana jump -> blizzard while Popo grabs, so that the Blizzard hits just after you grab them?

I also wonder how escapable charge d-smash (facing forward) -> grab is. If you grab someone before hitstun takes place, does the hitstun transfer to grab capture damage, or can they mash out immediately? It seems like if you use d-smash in rather than f-smash (less damage but also less ending lag), you can start the Wobble almost immediately.

 

[DerfMidWest]

@ Fly_Amanita A while back you said that you were working on a rest punish that might be better than charge smash -> grab. I saw your inescapable wobble setup for missed tether grabs and can't help but think it might be related. Is it something like desynch into Nana jump -> blizzard while Popo grabs, so that the Blizzard hits just after you grab them?

I also wonder how escapable charge d-smash (facing forward) -> grab is. If you grab someone before hitstun takes place, does the hitstun transfer to grab capture damage, or can they mash out immediately? It seems like if you use d-smash in rather than f-smash (less damage but also less ending lag), you can start the Wobble almost immediately.

I prefer dsmash for that kind of thing, for me its much easier to do a solo charge dsmash from spot dodge consistently, but in my eperience its way easier to wobble off of it too.
I'm not sure about the grab capture damage, I always kind of just assumed it did. I might have read that somewhere, but I really don't know the answer to that.

 

[_Snover_]

Hi guys! Just came back from a fest and had my best tournament run (I won 2 sets.) My last set was on stream. Here's the VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/umdsmash/b/642355310
The set starts at 13:50.

I'd like some help with my play in general and/or against Marth. My main problems that I've seen is that I excessively roll, and that I charge smash attacks that just leave me open to get punished (Which is a bad habit from practicing against CPUs.)

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hi guys! Just came back from a fest and had my best tournament run (I won 2 sets.) My last set was on stream. Here's the VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/umdsmash/b/642355310
The set starts at 13:50.

I'd like some help with my play in general and/or against Marth. My main problems that I've seen is that I excessively roll, and that I charge smash attacks that just leave me open to get punished (Which is a bad habit from practicing against CPUs.)

I will happily critique you once I have some more time to do so, but congrats!

 

[Smog]

Okay I realized I have complained about Marth so many times, but I just can't beat one.

• Every time I recover I feel like fish in a bucket, and if I get back on stage it feels like they still end up killing me or killing Nana
• Whenever I roll to dodge a F-smash they usually have enough time to turn around and F-smash again. (Would spot dodging work better?)
• Whenever I try to ice block camp they just jump and fair and I'm usually in the middle of the animation.
• Edge guarding can be hard
• If I don't desync Blizzard, they usually have enough time even if they get hit to punish me
• If I get hit by anything ever I feel completely separated from Nana
• I try wd oos and fail
• I mis-space some of my desyncs and get punished hard

These are my weakest points while fighting Marth. Its so frustrating losing to basically anyone that plays Marth.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

@ Fly_Amanita A while back you said that you were working on a rest punish that might be better than charge smash -> grab. I saw your inescapable wobble setup for missed tether grabs and can't help but think it might be related.

They're pretty similar. The rest punish is just spot-dodge (or whatever) -> Nana blizzard -> grab timed so that it hits right before the blizzard connects. It's something like a 7 or 8 frame window to beat even frame perfect mashing at 0%, so it's pretty neat in that regard. The tether thing is more complicated since Nana wasn't facing the right way after the roll, so I had to do some weird things to account for that. Tangential, but it might be better to just have Nana blizzard the wrong way then WD behind the opponent and grab right before Nana's blizzard is pulled into them in that case.

Anyways, this rest punish is at least as good as the dsmash one. I never tested if the dsmash one is inescapable, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's similarly reliable, at least in practice.

 

[OddishGuy]

Video critique thread?

Okay I realized I have complained about Marth so many times, but I just can't beat one.

• Every time I recover I feel like fish in a bucket, and if I get back on stage it feels like they still end up killing me or killing Nana
• Whenever I roll to dodge a F-smash they usually have enough time to turn around and F-smash again. (Would spot dodging work better?)
• Whenever I try to ice block camp they just jump and fair and I'm usually in the middle of the animation.
• Edge guarding can be hard
• If I don't desync Blizzard, they usually have enough time even if they get hit to punish me
• If I get hit by anything ever I feel completely separated from Nana
• I try wd oos and fail
• I mis-space some of my desyncs and get punished hard

These are my weakest points while fighting Marth. Its so frustrating losing to basically anyone that plays Marth.

• Yeah =l You can try to pressure the Marth with WD in shield approaches. A lot of the time Marths will start carrying Nana to the other edge, and once Popo waltzes over he get's F-smashed. WD in shield is an interesting way to force Marth's hand, and getting grabbed is better that getting hit IMO.
  
• Shield F-smash, WDOoS, free wobble.
• Fair is super good, but if they approach with it too deep then it's a free shield grab. If you're camping you should be keeping a blizzard out as well most of the time.
• Ice blocks can be good. Nana getting hit by the Up-B is super annoying though, so try to keep her occupied/safe or sit in shield if need be. IC's aren't amazing at off-stage guarding. I read somewhere that you can surprise some Marth's with drop off Bair or Nair, but I wouldn't say it's the go to option. If the Marth has the option to recover onstage I usually shoot a couple of ice-blocks and wait. If they get the ledge, that's fine, just try to set up a wall and keep them away. If they Up-B on stage that should be a free KO.
• Are you saying you're using synced blizzard? =o
• Practice that thing nonstop, WDOoS punishes can be bread and butter KOs. If you get hit by at the very edge of Marth's moves there's nothing you can really do and WDOoS approaches will get stuffed. At that point, you're both kind of in a neurtal situation again so you can set up camp, try to approach, re-position, etc.
• Yeah =l

 

[Shinobi1]

I dont know if this has been asked yet, but is there a ice climbers hitbox and frame data thread?

 

[Kyu Puff]

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-ice-climbers-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285394/

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Cross-posting this from Twitter/Pastebin:

Remember the recent, extremely situational rest and tether punishes that involve starting a Nana blizzard and then grabbing right before the blizzard connects, leading to an inescapable wobble at any percentage? It turns out you can do the same basic idea in the middle of a dthrow CG. Let's say we tell Nana to blizzard extremely late into Popo's dthrow animation, but not so late that Popo would partake in a synced blizzard. Blizzard is active on frame 16, and Nana acts six frames late, so this blizzard is effectively active on frame 22. Meanwhile, Popo's grab is active on frame 7 and you don't generally need to wait very long before grabbing again, so Popo should typically be able to land the next grab right before the blizzard actually connects, leading to the same inescapable wobbling set-up as in the previous cases.

I see one potential drawback, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not an actual issue in reality. Namely, blizzard's hitboxes do take some time to travel (each one lasts 11 frames from spawning point to ending point, unless hitting a target cuts its lifetime short), so timing a blizzard that hits in that ideal ~7-8 frame window regardless of the enemy's DI could be a concern. However, I'll note that human mashing is much, much worse than TAS mashing, and the enemy also won't be at 0% thanks to the dthrow (and possibly not being at 0% beforehand to begin with), so it's quite likely that a slight delay in the blizzard hitting will cause no problems whatsoever. Also, if it's a character you can dthrow CG on reaction for even a very short while, you can safely take them to a percentage at which there is absolutely no concern.

 

[DerfMidWest]

• Every time I recover I feel like fish in a bucket, and if I get back on stage it feels like they still end up killing me or killing Nana

This part is rough. You need to be super tricky with your recoveries.
Honestly, its pretty important to avoid the situations where marth is hitting you off the stage (easier said than done).

• Whenever I roll to dodge a F-smash they usually have enough time to turn around and F-smash again. (Would spot dodging work better?)

Yeah don't roll there. It works every once in awhile, but WD OoS is a guaranteed grab. Dealing with the shield stun can be tricky to learn, but once you get it, its ezpz.

• Whenever I try to ice block camp they just jump and fair and I'm usually in the middle of the animation.

Blizzard is the way to go. I like DD->blizzard (hold shield with popo). Blizzard outranges fair, which is unsafe if not spaced on popo's shield.
I only use ice blocks to pressure marth into approaching, blizzard is the real problem for him.

Also, as I said, unspaced fair is not safe on shield (especially double fair). What I do when I know marth will sh fair is WD under him with shield and just shield grab while he's in hitlag. Free grab once you learn the timing.

• Edge guarding can be hard

Yeah ICs have a little trouble with his recovery, but when marth recovers, you have the stage, and marth is balls when cornered. I just use blizzard to trap him at the ledge, then punish whatever he does. Or even just wait outside his nair from the ledge range.

When you get marth off stage, the biggest part is taking his double jump, forcing him to recover low. Ice blocks are good for this if you time them so they hit marth when he jumps or sideBs.

Once he's low or out of dj->aerial at ledge range, I like roll to edge->nana jump onto ledge->popo marth slayer. This covers a lot of stuff and freaks marth players out, since you can react to whatever and they can't just sweetspot.

• If I don't desync Blizzard, they usually have enough time even if they get hit to punish me

If they SDI up and away they can fair you. I like shield for this. Then you just cover wherever they go.
Desynced blizzard is the ICs best tool for controlling space in the mu.

• If I get hit by anything ever I feel completely separated from Nana

This tends to happen. I just camp marth and try not to get hit.

• I try wd oos and fail

Practice. Shield stun is a ***** to learn. You'll get it.

• I mis-space some of my desyncs and get punished hard

Learning when desync setups are safe and unsafe is one of the trickiest parts of the mu. My advice is to watch a lot of ICs marth and pay attention to the positions ICs get punished for desyncing and the positions/setups they get away with.
I hate spotdodge/roll desyncs in most situations, and marth can punish those pretty hard, so I recommend just eliminating them from your play as much as possible.
Other than that its just spacing.

These are my weakest points while fighting Marth. Its so frustrating losing to basically anyone that plays Marth.

I understand, it's rough. Ive put in sooo much work into this mu over the last year. Its a hard one. But doable. It takes a lot of knowledge of micro scenarios and overall martchup familiarity.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I feel as though egg lay is very fraudulent as well. If he grabs nana, you can just wavedash forward and grab (or smash if he does dj turn around neutral b, which a lot of yoshis do, again knocking him away without a jump).

I forgot to respond this earlier, but I've had a similar idea myself and know from testing that it doesn't work. Yoshi can parry the frame immediately after egg lay, leaving no window for a grab (or anything else) to actually hit him right after the move finishes. The best you can probably do is make a good read on what he does after egg lay and punish that.

 

[IC-Rambler]

Once he's low or out of dj->aerial at ledge range, I like roll to edge->nana jump onto ledge->popo marth slayer. This covers a lot of stuff and freaks marth players out, since you can react to whatever and they can't just sweetspot.

By Popo marth slayer, do you mean just have popo shield next to the ledge, and just shield->punish the on stage up-b?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Cross-posting this from Twitter/Pastebin:

Remember the recent, extremely situational rest and tether punishes that involve starting a Nana blizzard and then grabbing right before the blizzard connects, leading to an inescapable wobble at any percentage? It turns out you can do the same basic idea in the middle of a dthrow CG. Let's say we tell Nana to blizzard extremely late into Popo's dthrow animation, but not so late that Popo would partake in a synced blizzard. Blizzard is active on frame 16, and Nana acts six frames late, so this blizzard is effectively active on frame 22. Meanwhile, Popo's grab is active on frame 7 and you don't generally need to wait very long before grabbing again, so Popo should typically be able to land the next grab right before the blizzard actually connects, leading to the same inescapable wobbling set-up as in the previous cases.

I see one potential drawback, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not an actual issue in reality. Namely, blizzard's hitboxes do take some time to travel (each one lasts 11 frames from spawning point to ending point, unless hitting a target cuts its lifetime short), so timing a blizzard that hits in that ideal ~7-8 frame window regardless of the enemy's DI could be a concern. However, I'll note that human mashing is much, much worse than TAS mashing, and the enemy also won't be at 0% thanks to the dthrow (and possibly not being at 0% beforehand to begin with), so it's quite likely that a slight delay in the blizzard hitting will cause no problems whatsoever. Also, if it's a character you can dthrow CG on reaction for even a very short while, you can safely take them to a percentage at which there is absolutely no concern.

Is it percentage dependent? It seems like there's a huge difference in the amount of time you have to wait between, say, Falcon at 15% and Sheik at 30%. It would be really useful against Falcon though, as you'd only have to get one regrab to start Wobbling from any percentage (assuming that's how it works).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't think that'll actually cause problems. Even on the floatier of the dthrow CG-able characters, you can grab fairly early and still connect, whereas on the higher gravity characters, you just /need/ to grab early. I just tested this on a Sheik at 30% DIing in and it still worked fine.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Does anyone remember this?

It looks cool but isn't very reliable. If the opponent is very light, or is at high percentage, it takes fewer frames for them to fly away, meaning the u-tilt hitbox might not capture them until they are already outside of ICs' grab range. It's also affected by the opponent's DI; depending on their trajectory out of d-throw, the u-tilt could miss their hurtbox entirely.

Fly's inescapable Blizzard trick reminded me that I've been meaning to test this "combo" as a low percentage Wobble setup. At low percentages, if you walk forward slightly with Nana, I think the u-tilt will capture most characters independent of DI. And, since their initial velocity is lower, there's low risk of them being captured in the u-tilt out of grab range. It might be especially useful against bigger characters that you can't d-throw chaingrab, like Samus and Peach.

This wouldn't work in versions 1.02+, because the weak hits of u-tilt are always SDIable. It might be unreliable even in earlier versions, because the first few hits would still do >1% damage, giving the opponent a small window to SDI (assuming the u-tilt is fresh). In version 1.0 I haven't ever seen someone DI out of a fresh, synched u-tilt, but that's probably because a synched u-tilt stales to sub-1% damage twice as fast as a solo u-tilt.