Social General Ice Climber Chat

[GhllieShdeKnife]

My personal reason for pushing for freeze glitch legality is that i can wobble in friendlies but not in a real tourney situation. I have been trying to wobble for about 3 years now(sometimes practicing hours a day for weeks) and I can wobble when i am completely relaxed but not when i am focused. I am obviously very biased in this argument because i want to win, that being said i haven't encountered a good reason not to legalize it other than general opinion of ICs which isnt great atm.

 

[FlamingForce]

Unfair is just an opinion.

So is fair.
And so is honestly your entire (very) personal reason for starting this to begin with.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

my reason is actually not an opinion at all, those are actual experiences of reality. I have the opinion that Freeze Glitch should be legal and I have given reasons why i think it should be legal. Im not going to be angry if freeze glitch is not made made legal, I just want to know why it is illegal if it doesnt make ICs the best(broken). I interpret the above post as a direct attack on me i dont get it, if you want to make a point then do so but dont attack me for being honest and direct.

 

[FlamingForce]

my reason is actually not an opinion at all, those are actual experiences of reality.

Interpreting these experiences as fair or unfair is what we call an opinion.

As for legality.

-It is a glitch.
-It takes any and all forms of control out of your opponents hands, wobbling also does this to an extent but still allows a shot to mash out at lower percentages
-The move presents a possible stalling problem, though this problem can arguably be fixed with strict ruling most people will agree that it's better to simply ban something instead of weaving a whole bunch of rules around it. (Don't forget that someone who bthrows up to 240% is also very, very obviously stalling the match)

As far as my testing goes it takes about a full minute to bthrow someone up to 250% and approx 30 seconds to wobble him there.

There's also the simple issue of TO's and a community who simply don't want to deal with it, there's really no good reason to give us another controversial infinite when we already have access to them, just because you buckle under the pressure does not mean a community at large should have to make way to make your life easier.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I actually never stated that it is unfair that I cant wobble in tourney, or gave any kind of opinion on my experience

1. ness's yoyo glitch is not banned and even encouraged
2. you cant mash out of wobbling at any % if the spacing between hits is perfect
3. the rules are a bit complicated I will give you that
4. freeze glitch is not an infinite when rules are established, just like wobbling is not a true infinite when the rules are established.
As for the community and the TO's that is a valid reason not to make freeze glitch legal, the last time we talked about freeze glitch legality was before the growth of the community and Im not sure that a majority of players would be against it when presented with a good ruleset around it's use. Local TO's should know all the good players anyways and be able to know if it's going to be a problem, as for national TO's I would consider trying out legal freeze glitch in local tourneys far before it would be implemented on a natonal level.

 

[DerfMidWest]

why is this still being discussed? It straight up does not matter.
The japanese have a system that works for them pretty well.
go learn more about it and then continue this discussion.
/topic.

 

[S2rulL]

Let's go back to talking about how hard wobbling timings are Kappa

 

[FlamingForce]

I actually never stated that it is unfair that I cant wobble in tourney, or gave any kind of opinion on my experience

1. ness's yoyo glitch is not banned and even encouraged
2. you cant mash out of wobbling at any % if the spacing between hits is perfect
3. the rules are a bit complicated I will give you that
4. freeze glitch is not an infinite when rules are established, just like wobbling is not a true infinite when the rules are established.
As for the community and the TO's that is a valid reason not to make freeze glitch legal, the last time we talked about freeze glitch legality was before the growth of the community and Im not sure that a majority of players would be against it when presented with a good ruleset around it's use. Local TO's should know all the good players anyways and be able to know if it's going to be a problem, as for national TO's I would consider trying out legal freeze glitch in local tourneys far before it would be implemented on a natonal level.

1. Granted, but nobody can pull that thing off consistently enough anyways, nor is it as impactful as the freeze glitch
2. Which is a big if and not something you're going to pull off every time, hence why I named it, it's possible to mess it up and the opponent has a degree of control.
3. Cheers.
4. How exactly are they not true infinites? You pull them off successfully and you get a guaranteed stock regardless of %, that's about as close to an infinite anything will ever have to be in Smash
If you think you can get the glitch through to the community with a proper ruleset then I suggest you start working on that instead of discussing it with what little part of the playerbase actually visits the ICs boards.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I actually started a thread on melee social on facebook and got pretty good response in general from the community(though it is melee social). I didnt post on here to have it blow up into a big discussion, I just wanted to hear what other IC mains have to say on the matter before i make a public push for legality(if all the climber mains dont want me to i wont). That being said this discussion did identify the points I need to make.
Wobbling is not a true infinite cause you have to stop at one stock, a true infinite would be an entire game. that doesnt matter at all

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Stalling is painfully obvious with the japanese ruleset cause you need to grab. If your waiting in between each grab it is painfully obvious you are stalling cause there is no other explanation.

What would be the maximum number of frames spent not grabbing after a throw such that you aren't considered stalling and how would you judge whether that's been breached, especially on a non-recorded set-up?

Any stalling clause in this fashion is inevitably going to run into some sort of effectively unenforceable boundary issue.

 

[Smasher89]

Freezeglitch allowed would make the peachmatchup much easier, and prob put ICs on the top of the tierlist(1 grab first stock=match, much stronger then anything else in the game, including using masterhand in teams as stockholder). However its patched out in pal because it wasnt intended and i wouldnt be able to use it here anyways. I would like to see the effects of it in 1 tournament but mostly for comedyfactor, and players reaction too it on stream XD

 

[DerfMidWest]

Freezeglitch allowed would make the peachmatchup much easier, and prob put ICs on the top of the tierlist(1 grab first stock=match, much stronger then anything else in the game, including using masterhand in teams as stockholder). However its patched out in pal because it wasnt intended and i wouldnt be able to use it here anyways. I would like to see the effects of it in 1 tournament but mostly for comedyfactor, and players reaction too it on stream XD

it's legal in japanese tournaments.
but yeah, that's basically the exact same argument people had for wobbling being banned.
freeze glitch being legal does not change how good the ICs are at all.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I have not been able to find the japanese ruleset so im not sure how they deal with stalling concerns, Derf said something about a 30 sec time limit after the freeze(time could be adjusted but i think that's pretty close to right). This seems like a pretty good ruling on stalling and I imagine it would be treated similarly to the 250% wobbling limit. edit: i can only see freeze glitch being used at NINJA 2 and not 3 or 4 because there is noone playing ics, maybe it was made illegal

also lol at masterhand in teams, that would be horrible. wouldnt you just get sandwiched all day

 

[DerfMidWest]

masterhand on corneria all day baby

 

[Vanitas]

I have not been able to find the japanese ruleset so im not sure how they deal with stalling concerns, Derf said something about a 30 sec time limit after the freeze(time could be adjusted but i think that's pretty close to right). This seems like a pretty good ruling on stalling and I imagine it would be treated similarly to the 250% wobbling limit. edit: i can only see freeze glitch being used at NINJA 2 and not 3 or 4 because there is noone playing ics, maybe it was made illegal

also lol at masterhand in teams, that would be horrible. wouldnt you just get sandwiched all day

Say if you were to do the freeze glitch in the middle of the stage where Nana's throwing patterns are a bit more random. After you pass the opponent to Nana and you timed the squall hammer right after Nana may have uthrowed the opponent instead...how would you bring down the opponent to end the infinite? It might take a while to bring down the opponent trying to Fair spike them all the way to the ground where you can grab them again to end it, but only God knows how long that can take.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Say if you were to do the freeze glitch in the middle of the stage where Nana's throwing patterns are a bit more random. After you pass the opponent to Nana and you timed the squall hammer right after Nana may have uthrowed the opponent instead...how would you bring down the opponent to end the infinite?

With a time limit after freeze regardless of throw you would still lose after that time period, The opponent smash DI'ing could prolong your efforts to get them towards the ground making it easier to time out(or help them for mercy). The ice climber player would have to be careful when executing the freeze glitch in order to avoid this happening. If this happens near a platform then the opponent might be close enough to a platform to save the game within the time period. As for keeping track of the time(other than ingame) I would imagine this being implemented somewhat like the wobbling %limit(if they are stuck in the air just give up).

 

[Vanitas]

With a time limit after freeze regardless of throw you would still lose after that time period, The opponent smash DI'ing could prolong your efforts to get them towards the ground making it easier to time out(or help them for mercy). The ice climber player would have to be careful when executing the freeze glitch in order to avoid this happening. If this happens near a platform then the opponent might be close enough to a platform to save the game within the time period. As for keeping track of the time(other than ingame) I would imagine this being implemented somewhat like the wobbling %limit(if they are stuck in the air just give up).

Time-based ways of countering stalling are never good since they become very difficult to enforce when the limit is approached very closely. If a player chooses to stall for 30 seconds plus or minus a few frames, it isn't feasible to tell on the spot if the 30 second rule was violated. - Fly Amanita

^I think that point was well made.

As for opponents smash DI'ing, not everyone is going to smash DI an uthrow or grabs that would send them high into the air at higher percents. Sometimes they might not DI just as a mixup.
If you can present a thread where you have all your arguments for freeze glitch, and counter arguments to some of the points presented here, maybe you could have a solid appeal...but there were a lot of very good points on this thread that validate it as banworthy.

If you're having trouble wobbling, try listening to a metronome during your tournament games. After a while, it becomes almost muscle memory for me. Also read Tomber's guide on wobbling (which is sticky worthy imo): http://smashboards.com/threads/behind-wobbling-all-the-stuff-you-dont-see.340028/

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Well, I guess I cant really make any more of an fool of myself than I have done so far. Im glad there are lots of intelligent people here to steer me in the right direction so thanks for that.
I imagine that freeze glitch was(is?) legal in japanese tournaments because of a difference in the culture of the community.
I am going to continue to try and learn to maintain a wobble in a tournament atmosphere and continue to enjoy this amazing game and character.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yeah japan just views the game totally different than normal people.

 

[S2rulL]

Japan is weird. Awesome, but weird.

 

[TheRealFluid]

Japan doesn't see it as a game. They see it as a way of life.

 

[Vanitas]

So if it's cool with everyone, I'd like to get a couple of tips and general knowledge about the IC vs Peach matchup and some of the new technologies up to date:

-Squall Hammer beats her float pretty solidly
-Full hop Nairs are good such as how Wobbles does in Infinity and Beyond 18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYjeeblPstY
-Handoffs are ridiculously easy to perform on her

Now I hear people think platform camping (with ice blocks) might be a good way of beating her too...however I haven't had much success in doing so as ICs don't have the most reliable aerials to fend her off imo. If someone could help me out on this one, it'd be much appreciated.
I believe this matchup isn't as bad as it once used to be if we can tip the punishment into our favour (wobbling, handoffs, dair chaingrabs)...However getting that grab is always difficult.
I once messaged Armada on twitter and he believes ICs need to find an answer to Peach's fair for it to become a winnable matchup...Do we have an answer to it yet?
Also, would shieldstun desynch jump blizzard work on her fairs? No computers are smart enough to do it on me so I haven't been able to test that out.

 

[kelots]

one thing i found helped me with wobbling was getting a 'bpm finder' app on my smart phone, the apps are intended that you tap on your phone to find the BPM of a song but you can use it to practice tapping at 200bpm while away from the game (i use it in meetings haha). good for practicing keeping the tempo while distracted

 

[S2rulL]

Still don't understand the need for a set BPM in order to be able to wobble. Do a lot of Icies mains have a poor sense of rhythm or something??? lol

 

[cemo]

Well, if you don't know the rhythm it doesn't matter how good your sense of rhythm is.

 

[john!]

because, limey, there's a small BPM window that we have to maintain consistently to keep up the wobble

 

[Grim Tuesday]

honestly whether it's legal or not doesn't really change much in practice

no need to rock the boat

 

[cemo]

I am getting hyped for Big House. I'm hosting a mini tournament at my place to prepare.
Originally I wanted top 32 but this tournament is looking stacked. I'll just play my game and see where it takes me.

 

[S2rulL]

because, limey, there's a small BPM window that we have to maintain consistently to keep up the wobble

Wow, never actually been called a limey before, so that's a first lol

And yeah, I get that the window is small but I've never really had a problem with it having a decent sense of rhythm, was just wondering why a lot of people struggle so much.

 

[DerfMidWest]

because sometimes you'll get a grab in a really weird position, and then you'll start a wobble and it will be slightly off beat, even though it looks on time. There are a lot of weird situations like that.

 

[cemo]

I used to get it by the audio cue of the pummel/tilt. Turns out this isn't exactly tournament viable as it can be super hard to hear at times. learn from my mistakes!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

After you've done it enough times you should never **** it up, it's not hard to master for any timing just got to practice

 

[Samwisely]

I had a problem where I could Wobble in practice and friendlies, but not in tournament. Nerves can be just as big an effect as sound. The same advice wins out though, you just have to practice more in the that type of scenario.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nerves is a generic smash problem, not wobbling-specific I reckon

but yeah there can be other factors

 

[Loket]

Ive been messing around with pivot Fsmashes.
Since nana doesnt do anything if executed properly (she does dash attack otherwise)
its possible to fsmash and grab at the same time.
Could this be useful? Does it give you frame advantage on shield?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ive been messing around with pivot Fsmashes.
Since nana doesnt do anything if executed properly (she does dash attack otherwise)
its possible to fsmash and grab at the same time.
Could this be useful? Does it give you frame advantage on shield?

you can do it.
you can also turn around nana-fsmash->popo grab.


On an unrelated note, I've been trying to improve my movement a lot lately. Especially platform mobility and waveland fade-aways to bait people in shields.
And just baiting in general. Baiting is so important.

 

[shuall]

On an unrelated note, I've been trying to improve my movement a lot lately. Especially platform mobility and waveland fade-aways to bait people in shields.
And just baiting in general. Baiting is so important.

Focusing on baiting has taught me that my spacing is atrocious. Yeah, I baited out the attack I wanted, but I look like an idiot running into it, or whiffing the punish.

 

[DerfMidWest]

yeah spacing/position is imperative.
you have to really work on being "mentally aggressive" as wobbles calls it.
it takes a lot of focus to learn though.

 

[DerfMidWest]

double post because ICs are still incredible in teams and nobody knows.

 

[Ocean]

agreed, they are very underrated in teams.

on another note, I've been having trouble with ganon a whole lot. he is a very frustrating character to play against.