Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

Synced blizzard is really easy to desynch out of since the animation ends for both ICs at the same time, so if you do an action within 6 frames of the animation ending, Popo will ignore it and Nana will act on it. In the video you posted, only Popo's dsmash is hitting, which is inducing hitlag for him and making his dsmash last a bit longer than Nana's, so if you do an input right before Popo's ends (also a 6 frame window in the video you posted since a 10% move always induces 6 frames of hitlag for the attacker), Popo won't act on it, but since Nana's dsmash is its normal length, she will.

 

[Vanitas]

When one is trying to sweetspot the edge with Ice Climber's Up-B, why is it sometimes that Nana will instantly teleport below? Also, what are ways to avoid this?
A video of an example is at 1:46 in this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J6MMHMGtBw

 

[Dunkdimmedon]

Question about tech chasing with icies. Sometimes when I tech chase and I read a getup attack and shield icies traction make it so that I can't regrab. What is the best thing to do in this instance, just dashdance regrab?

 

[standardtoaster]

i'll load up debug in melee and look into the sideb thing i mentioned @ Fly_Amanita

 

[DerfMidWest]

I got some matches recorded this wednesday, advice would be appreciated.

vs Fang (marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJiSCT9LQr0

I've been working on the marth matchup a lot recently, and I'm happy to see myself improving. Here my big thing was just missing punishes that should have been kills.
I also noticed that when I forced him on platforms, I would try to pressure with uairs, which should be a nono unless I know it won't miss, and because of that, I wasn't able to stop him from getting down sometimes.
Overall, I was better at using blizzards and Ice blocks, but there were things I picked up on that I could have abused more (i.e. when he was on a platform he'd run off with fair, and I would intercept him with wd back, nana blizzard)
I definitely just need to tighten up my punish game, and definitely my grab game on marth in particular.
I also did cute Derf things.

vs ShroudedOne (Peach)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35APrKJ5b0

Haven't had time to rewatch this one, iirc, I just dropped punishes more than I should have and approached in some dumb scenarios.
Way too much fsmash in neutral. Needed to be more conscious of my position, especially with desync setups.
Too many spotdodge desyncs, I think in situations when I can't dd desync safely, I should be roll desyncing backwards to reset position.
I need to use more dd desync->nana usmashes, it's pretty safe as an anti-air against peach.
threw way too many moves out when they weren't going to hit.

vs Ralis (Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9H-wA2FkY

This was the worst set I've ever had against ralis (my training partner).
I haven't had time to rewatch it yet, but I remember allowing him to get hits on me waaay more than he should have.
Needed to tighten my punish game and my defense for sure.
I also cp'd FD instead of stadium, which I think was a bad idea. I prefer stadium a lot more against falco's who know the matchup, because of the platforms, but w/e.

anyway, any advice would be great.

 

[Loket]

Ive been messing around with shielddrops and found a superfast desync!
shielddrop > Belay
It works just like belay OoS but its instant and doable while running (As long as youre on a platform obviously).
Its really cool!
Thoughts?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ive been messing around with shielddrops and found a superfast desync!
shielddrop > Belay
It works just like belay OoS but its instant and doable while running (As long as youre on a platform obviously).
Its really cool!
Thoughts?

Interesting, I haven't tried this.
The solo belay probably puts you back on top of the platform?

 

[Dunkdimmedon]

Ive been messing around with shielddrops and found a superfast desync!
shielddrop > Belay
It works just like belay OoS but its instant and doable while running (As long as youre on a platform obviously).
Its really cool!
Thoughts?

cool, found out that regular drop + belay also desyncs

 

[Psi Sig]

just started playing melee again, I never knew how amazingly fun the Ice Climbers were to play, they shall definitely be my main.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2xRsH1Fdi4

I said a while ago that I had video evidence of nana down throwing at the ledge instead of forward throwing

finally got around to uploading it (it was hidden in a 2 hour recording session so took me a while to decide I could be bothered finding it lol)

 

[DerfMidWest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2xRsH1Fdi4

I said a while ago that I had video evidence of nana down throwing at the ledge instead of forward throwing

finally got around to uploading it (it was hidden in a 2 hour recording session so took me a while to decide I could be bothered finding it lol)

this has happened to me before too (like two days ago), I think what is happening is that when nana gets a grab on the very edge of a platform, she gets confused.
For me it was also on bf, but on the top platform.
I know on yoshi's she can also get confused by a number of stage obstacles like the slanted ledges, shyguys, and randal, but that's a totally different scenario.
I haven't done any testing yet though, but it's safe to say it won't happen very often at all.

 

[Cervidae]

Has anyone experienced backwards sliding when you grab someone? I have a video of me messing around with chain grabs, but every time that Nana grabbed she would slide backwards after grabbing the opponent. This would also happen with Popo, but only every now and then.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Were you chain-grabbing mewtwo? Fat characters can push the climbers backwards

 

[Cervidae]

Were you chain-grabbing mewtwo? Fat characters can push the climbers backwards

Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I didn't realize that larger characters force the Ice Climbers back; that's odd. Thanks for the info.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I didn't realize that larger characters force the Ice Climbers back; that's odd. Thanks for the info.

Mewtwo is the only one that's really noticeable to me, it's because of his tail so he causes you to slide backwards a lot.

 

[Vanitas]

I got some matches recorded this wednesday, advice would be appreciated.

vs Fang (marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJiSCT9LQr0

I've been working on the marth matchup a lot recently, and I'm happy to see myself improving. Here my big thing was just missing punishes that should have been kills.
I also noticed that when I forced him on platforms, I would try to pressure with uairs, which should be a nono unless I know it won't miss, and because of that, I wasn't able to stop him from getting down sometimes.
Overall, I was better at using blizzards and Ice blocks, but there were things I picked up on that I could have abused more (i.e. when he was on a platform he'd run off with fair, and I would intercept him with wd back, nana blizzard)
I definitely just need to tighten up my punish game, and definitely my grab game on marth in particular.
I also did cute Derf things.

vs ShroudedOne (Peach)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35APrKJ5b0

Haven't had time to rewatch this one, iirc, I just dropped punishes more than I should have and approached in some dumb scenarios.
Way too much fsmash in neutral. Needed to be more conscious of my position, especially with desync setups.
Too many spotdodge desyncs, I think in situations when I can't dd desync safely, I should be roll desyncing backwards to reset position.
I need to use more dd desync->nana usmashes, it's pretty safe as an anti-air against peach.
threw way too many moves out when they weren't going to hit.

vs Ralis (Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9H-wA2FkY

This was the worst set I've ever had against ralis (my training partner).
I haven't had time to rewatch it yet, but I remember allowing him to get hits on me waaay more than he should have.
Needed to tighten my punish game and my defense for sure.
I also cp'd FD instead of stadium, which I think was a bad idea. I prefer stadium a lot more against falco's who know the matchup, because of the platforms, but w/e.

anyway, any advice would be great.

You can take my advice with a grain of salt as I am no big name, but I do have 4 years of playing Ice Climbers and rank high on my local PR.

Vs Fang
I think you covered all what you needed to improve on, though I think you could have added maybe more jab to grabs instead of some of your other options like dash attack at 9:56 when you escaped the dancing blade.

Vs Shrouded one
1:12, you were getting a bit predictable with your platform movement. It wouldn't have been long before the opponent could have picked up on this and maybe nair'd you there.
You're definitely right that there are a lot of Fsmashes being placed...
I also noticed there were less desynched blizzards (in comparison to your other matches), which I think might be one of ICs best spacing tools for this matchup and in general. I do know when I tend to get frustrated in a match, I would do less defensive options and perhaps that might have been going on with you. Another trend was that you were becoming a bit more predictable at the last couple of minutes too in comparison to the other videos I watched.

Vs Ralis:
Hmm...this is my own opinion and my own bias, but I think striking to Yoshi's story is unfavourable for ICs vs Falco because of the amount of control Falco can exhibit sometimes. He can kill you off the top pretty damn early (as evident in your set) and I've seen Nanas dying at like 40% or below there sometimes.
Also, as evident in his third stock, where you did attempt to wobble him, if wobbling is legal, by all means, you should use it for all his stocks. Think of landing a grab as winning a lottery..that chance is not going to happen often and with the metagame evolving to the point where one hit can lead to death, you better do it for all your stocks :D

at 0:26 seconds, I think it was a safe bet that you wouldn't be able to chase him down with more uairs so I think it would have been a better option to regain stage control during that time (of course uair'ing spacies is so much fun though...x_x)
at 1:00, not to nitpick or anything, but you could have jabbed a couple of more times to let Nana regain position with you. He was at 130%+ so I think it would be safe to input another headbash.
4:30, I would have applied more pressure at guarding the edge instead of resyncing with Nana. Popo has all the tools to edge guard a space animal if read correctly.

You seem to be a very solid IC player. I look forward to your growth.

 

[DerfMidWest]

You can take my advice with a grain of salt as I am no big name, but I do have 4 years of playing Ice Climbers and rank high on my local PR.

Vs Fang
I think you covered all what you needed to improve on, though I think you could have added maybe more jab to grabs instead of some of your other options like dash attack at 9:56 when you escaped the dancing blade.

Vs Shrouded one
1:12, you were getting a bit predictable with your platform movement. It wouldn't have been long before the opponent could have picked up on this and maybe nair'd you there.
You're definitely right that there are a lot of Fsmashes being placed...
I also noticed there were less desynched blizzards (in comparison to your other matches), which I think might be one of ICs best spacing tools for this matchup and in general. I do know when I tend to get frustrated in a match, I would do less defensive options and perhaps that might have been going on with you. Another trend was that you were becoming a bit more predictable at the last couple of minutes too in comparison to the other videos I watched.

Vs Ralis:
Hmm...this is my own opinion and my own bias, but I think striking to Yoshi's story is unfavourable for ICs vs Falco because of the amount of control Falco can exhibit sometimes. He can kill you off the top pretty damn early (as evident in your set) and I've seen Nanas dying at like 40% or below there sometimes.
Also, as evident in his third stock, where you did attempt to wobble him, if wobbling is legal, by all means, you should use it for all his stocks. Think of landing a grab as winning a lottery..that chance is not going to happen often and with the metagame evolving to the point where one hit can lead to death, you better do it for all your stocks :D

at 0:26 seconds, I think it was a safe bet that you wouldn't be able to chase him down with more uairs so I think it would have been a better option to regain stage control during that time (of course uair'ing spacies is so much fun though...x_x)
at 1:00, not to nitpick or anything, but you could have jabbed a couple of more times to let Nana regain position with you. He was at 130%+ so I think it would be safe to input another headbash.
4:30, I would have applied more pressure at guarding the edge instead of resyncing with Nana. Popo has all the tools to edge guard a space animal if read correctly.

You seem to be a very solid IC player. I look forward to your growth.

thank you so much for the solid feedback! I've been working on a lot since these sets were recorded, especially movement, since I noticed it's been sloppy/predictable lately.

against peach, I've been having a lot more success platform camping than straight blizzard walling (shroudedone is a training partner, so he knows the ICs defensive game very well)VaNz actually broke down the marth matchup for me recently and showed me how to pressure marth aggressively with properly timed shield approaches, so I'm hoping to implement that more often, since I'm much more comfortable being the aggressor.
But he also thinks on a level that I (or most players) am not capable of yet, so it will take a lot of work.

cool, found out that regular drop + belay also desyncs

was playing around with this, you can drop->solo squall.
I think this is a little more applicable, it's like solo squall OoS, but nana does not jump, so you can nanapult as soon as you hit the ground, or retreat with it and have nana fsmash or usmash guard.

I'll make a video soon to show what I'm talking about.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Last night I brought up freeze glitch legality on the Melee Social group on facebook. I would like to hear what the ice climber boards think about having it legal with the same restrictions on stalling and obviously no teams. There are several reasons why i think this is a good idea: could bring more interest in this awesome character in new players that only hear about wobbling when in reference to ICs, and players(like myself) who just cant hold a rhythm in a tense situation would have an alternative. The ICs player would of course lose the match if the character can get to an ungrabbable location.

 

[DerfMidWest]

you already heard my spiel lmao

 

[FlamingForce]

The same stalling rules can't exactly be applied that easily, to use wobbling as a form of stalling means that you have to keep the rhythm going till you hit 250%~300% (I'm not entirely sure as to which rule is more common)
You must wobble to do this, which means Pummel > dtilt/ftilt or whatever variation you use, this makes for a clear and easy way of ruling the damage limit, there's little room for variables, you either use some form of wobbling or don't get a stall.

With the freeze glitch you can do just about whatever the hell you want as long as you keep someone within the realm of a grab to break glitch, this allows for many many variables, many ways of building the damage, this makes the stalling rule difficult to apply, people could figure out the slowest possible way to beat a frozen player to the agreed upon percentage.
"Oh the timer is kinda running out, I guess I'll just ice block this guy to 300 instead of using a much faster way"

Not to mention people who decide to just not attack at all, how do you apply a max damage rule to these people? Even if you rule that people have to attack in a certain way, are you going to DQ them for whiffing a few of these agreed upon attacks? We all get the occasional input errors and this is honestly where the key difference lies, those errors will cost you your wobble, not your frozen target.

TLDR I am strongly against the idea of legalizing the freeze glitch, trying to create a ruleset around it is too slippery a slope and will likely lead to instances where the rules are applied very differently across different tournaments.
The technique is also hilariously broken, iirc you can actually freeze people from across the stage if they throw Nana and nobody should be getting a guaranteed stock as a punish because his opponent decided to throw Nana.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Just like any other form of stalling the TO has the final say, if your stalling with this it would be obvious. It is obvious you do not understand the glitch because if you use ice blocks you will freeze your opponent making them unable to be grabbed(thus forfeiting your match). Also apparently japan has had this legal for a while(with throws only so it resets their position) and(as far as i know) they have had no problems with stalling or even had any ICs win major tourneys. you can freeze an opponent while they are throwing your nana in specific throws with a very precise timing but doing this in a real match is very challenging.

 

[FlamingForce]

if your stalling with this it would be obvious.

You're*

This is the crux of the matter, whether or not someone is stalling can turn into a battle of opinions and views, people might intentionally try not to be too obvious about it

Also apparently japan has had this legal for a while(with throws only so it resets their position)

For the record, you suggested the technique as an alternative to wobbling yet present Japan's version of a sternly ruled freeze glitch that wouldn't help using this as an alternative at all because you'd still have to wobble.
Not a good argument.

It is obvious you do not understand the glitch because if you use ice blocks you will freeze your opponent

I understand it quite well, I was merely setting an example of a notably slow way of building damage, repeated jabs would be a good alternative.

Just like any other form of stalling the TO has the final say

Precise and applicable rules exist so that a TO doesn't have to waste time to step in and use that right.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I meant no disrespect by pointing out your ice block mistake, easy to make a small mistake like that. Let me ask you this, have you ever seen an ICs take a match to time on purpose? Also precise and applicable rules can be made for freeze glitch, a few examples include hitting your opponent with no less than 3 seconds in between damage and that the ICs player loses the game if their opponent is frozen at the end of time. Also if you try and jab them repeatedly they can just SDI up repeatedly until you cant grab them, forfeiting the match. Stalling is literally impossible not to see because you must use throws or else you forfeit.

 

[DerfMidWest]

The same stalling rules can't exactly be applied that easily, to use wobbling as a form of stalling means that you have to keep the rhythm going till you hit 250%~300% (I'm not entirely sure as to which rule is more common)
You must wobble to do this, which means Pummel > dtilt/ftilt or whatever variation you use, this makes for a clear and easy way of ruling the damage limit, there's little room for variables, you either use some form of wobbling or don't get a stall.

With the freeze glitch you can do just about whatever the hell you want as long as you keep someone within the realm of a grab to break glitch, this allows for many many variables, many ways of building the damage, this makes the stalling rule difficult to apply, people could figure out the slowest possible way to beat a frozen player to the agreed upon percentage.
"Oh the timer is kinda running out, I guess I'll just ice block this guy to 300 instead of using a much faster way"

Not to mention people who decide to just not attack at all, how do you apply a max damage rule to these people? Even if you rule that people have to attack in a certain way, are you going to DQ them for whiffing a few of these agreed upon attacks? We all get the occasional input errors and this is honestly where the key difference lies, those errors will cost you your wobble, not your frozen target.

TLDR I am strongly against the idea of legalizing the freeze glitch, trying to create a ruleset around it is too slippery a slope and will likely lead to instances where the rules are applied very differently across different tournaments.
The technique is also hilariously broken, iirc you can actually freeze people from across the stage if they throw Nana and nobody should be getting a guaranteed stock as a punish because his opponent decided to throw Nana.

30 second rule (or whatever it is japan uses) pretty much fixes the stalling problem.
I think they have other rules in place too like you can only freeze once per stock (theirs, not yours)

need to be able to be unfrozen, so they need to be regrabbed. This means you couldn't do things like spam jabs or whatever move you want, because they can SDI out of your grab range, and then you forfeit the game.
this also means you can't just freeze however you want, which is why japanese players usually do it near the ledge out of a handoff (it's basically just a handoff alternative)

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I think the biggest obstacle to legalizing freeze glitch is a lack of understanding/knowledge about the glitch. I think FlamingForce's reaction shows how confused people are about the freeze glitch and we would have to answer the question about stalling every other week until implemented in a "universal" ruleset

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Time-based ways of countering stalling are never good since they become very difficult to enforce when the limit is approached very closely. If a player chooses to stall for 30 seconds plus or minus a few frames, it isn't feasible to tell on the spot if the 30 second rule was violated.

 

[FlamingForce]

30 second rule (or whatever it is japan uses) pretty much fixes the stalling problem.
I think they have other rules in place too like you can only freeze once per stock (theirs, not yours)
need to be able to be unfrozen, so they need to be regrabbed.

That's still very very powerful, a free synced grab above 25~30% practically guarantees a wobble and a stock

I think the biggest obstacle to legalizing freeze glitch is a lack of understanding/knowledge about the glitch. I think FlamingForce's reaction shows how confused people are about the freeze glitch and we would have to answer the question about stalling every other week until implemented in a "universal" ruleset

Well then, start explaining and sharing this knowledge you hold!
You're the ones trying to change the rules so yes, I suggest you get used to the idea of answering a whole lot of stalling-related questions.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

To be clear I am the only one pushing for legalizing freeze glitch, After some testing I plan on making a video briefly explaining the freeze glitch and why i believe it should be allowed.

 

[DerfMidWest]

That's still very very powerful, a free synced grab above 25~30% practically guarantees a wobble and a stock

I don't actually see what that has to do with anything I was saying.
I was just saying what I believe the japanese rule is.
I don't care whether or not it's legal.

Time-based ways of countering stalling are never good since they become very difficult to enforce when the limit is approached very closely. If a player chooses to stall for 30 seconds plus or minus a few frames, it isn't feasible to tell on the spot if the 30 second rule was violated.

I feel like it's similar to the 250% wobble limits, tbh.
You avoid the controversy by releasing well before you reach 250%
Like I said, I could care less if it were legal, but if I were preforming the freeze glitch on someone, I would build percent as fast as possible and convert to a kill long before 30 seconds.

 

[FlamingForce]

I feel like it's similar to the 250% wobble limits, tbh.
You avoid the controversy by releasing well before you reach 250%
Like I said, I could care less if it were legal, but if I were preforming the freeze glitch on someone, I would build percent as fast as possible and convert to a kill long before 30 seconds.

You might, others might not.
If you wobble over 250% you're done, thats it, everyone can clearly see the damage counter going over 250.
The timer does not allow this if you cut it close enough, if the game isn't being recorded there's no real way to tell.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I really don't care about this argument lmao. someone else can have it.
I mean in brawl they have ****ing ledge grab limits, those are even harder to count than looking at a timer, since 30 seconds is pretty damn obvious.
but whatever japan is doing works pretty well, that's all I'm gonna say.

anyway, moving on to something that actually matters
I'm so bad at this matchup that its stupid
DerfMW vs Beegs (marth)

VaNz used ICs against him too later in the tournament and I'm trying to learn to pressure marth the way he does
VaNz (ICs+other characters) vs Beegs (marth)

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

how often could this possibly come into play though? the slowest method is just bthrowing/dthrowing over and over again which still builds up damage quickly, if your not attacking your opponent it is obviously stalling and the TO would come over and DQ you. I see it would be possible to stall a little bit but I cant see it being used to win matches even if executed perfectly, also doing this would make players in your area hate you and you could be subject to a community ban(similar to what Leffen recieved)

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

@ DerfMidWest i saw you doing a lot of sitting outside his range with sh bair, to me it seems like you are jumping too much in neutral.
It's very safe to run up and shield vs marth or run up and buffer shield roll when you know he is gonna commit. Im not amazing at this matchup myself so im not going to give you much more advice than abuse your roll and stop jumping in neutral. basically once marth commits roll into him or just run up and shield then if you dont get an opportunity to punish a dash attack or move on shield just reset back to neutral and set up a blizzard wall(the only thing that can outrange marth). I have had a ton of experience in this matchup locally for many years so that's where i am drawing this knowledge from.

 

[FlamingForce]

I really don't care about this argument lmao. someone else can have it.
I mean in brawl they have ****ing ledge grab limits, those are even harder to count than looking at a timer

Cept for the fact that your ledge grabs are counted by the game and can be checked at the victory screen.

how often could this possibly come into play though? the slowest method is just bthrowing/dthrowing over and over again which still builds up damage quickly, if your not attacking your opponent it is obviously stalling and the TO would come over and DQ you. I see it would be possible to stall a little bit but I cant see it being used to win matches even if executed perfectly, also doing this would make players in your area hate you and you could be subject to a community ban(similar to what Leffen recieved)

Hate is irrelevant, it would be a risk that (a)busers would clearly be willing to take.
It's not about exceptions, rules aren't made with the good of humanity in mind.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

i dont think it's even possible to stall enough with 4 stocks using bthrow slowly to signifigantly change the time elasped, will time vs wobbling(dtilt) to 240% or whatever number. If you could jab wobble consistantly then you could stall out the game for a lot longer than freeze glitch(with rules) and that would be considered legal in today's ruleset.

 

[FlamingForce]

If you could jab wobble consistantly then you could stall out the game for a lot longer than freeze glitch(with rules) and that would be considered legal in today's ruleset.

That's a far fetched hypothetical and I really don't see what it has to do with anything here, if jab wobbling had historically been such a problem there'd be rules in place for it as well.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Derf linked this video displaying japanese players using the freeze glitch with only throws allowed once they are frozen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAtJB9Hdy_s&feature=youtu.be&t=5m52s. Stalling is painfully obvious with the japanese ruleset cause you need to grab. If your waiting in between each grab it is painfully obvious you are stalling cause there is no other explanation. Trying to stall in between grabs is also very difficult vs many characters because of a lack of defensive options in the air and slow air movement in general.(specifically every top tier other than puff)

 

[S2rulL]

I actually dislike having the idea of the freeze glitch being legal. Of course, being in Europe and playing on a PAL copy of Melee, it doesn't affect me, but I dunno. Something just seems horrendously unfair. Like, even with wobbling and handoffs if you mash hard enough there's a chance you'll escape, but this is just dumb beyond belief.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Unfair is just an opinion, also even with freeze glitch legal I dont believe that ICs is the best character. Other than a couple high level ICs every other IC does poorly at regional tournament and even those high level players dont(usually) place consistently at national level. Freeze glitch is also very risky compared to wobbling and requires a more specific setup.

 

[S2rulL]

OK, yeah, I see what you mean, Icies aren't the best character, but they already have a lot of options that are already considered unfair (e.g. wobbling) and freeze glitching is what it says on the tin. It's a glitch, and it isn't difficult to do either. That's just my opinion though. And Icies have been proven as strong by Fly, Wobbles, Chu and Nintendude. They've been established as a scary character to play against.