Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Vanitas]

Hey Ice Climbers;
Not sure where to go for critiquing but I will post here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4HPeF0sp40
This was Winner's Semi's match 2 against Kage the Warrior at a local in Ottawa. Despite being beaten, this was my best performance against him yet (managed to take him down to one stock, but still leagues away from the W). Otherwise, I am looking for brutal critique, thanks in advance!

Keep in mind, I am not an expert yet, but for those looking for Ganon advice: What I found useful was mixing up Reverse dair and normal dair chaingrabs as they both need different DI's to escape from. By doing so I managed to rack up big percents and finish with a fully charged Fsmash. If there weren't any bans, counterpicking to FD and mixing it up further with Dthrow Dtilt chaingrabs would have helped too as my match was on FoD where platforms would have screwed it up.

 

[S2rulL]

Good ways to practice Icies desyncs on your own?

 

[Hands]

i like training mode to practice things like the pivot and dashdance desynch, but the only issue is that you can't use the c-stick.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I just go into versus mode against a level 1 CPU. If I want to practice without a CPU wandering around, I either do the name entry glitch in fixed camera mode or (more easily) freeze glitch two CPUs on opposite sides of the stage in regular versus mode.

 

[Hands]

why two cpu's fly? why not just one?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Because I don't like having the camera always shifting towards one particular place in the level. Granted, freezing a guy near the center of the stage probably yields a sufficiently normal camera, so you could do that.

 

[Hands]

i tried it and it works a lot better than training mode. thanks fly!

 

[Smasher89]

http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/534211859?t=1h17m25s
My recorded vids from my latest tournament, got a couple of matches in there.

 

[Binx]

When I saw the first game vs a sheik i was pretty excited cause I have a lot of trouble with the mu but looks like the same things happen to you as they do me. =(

 

[DerfMidWest]

sheik is hard. Needles are touch to deal with and she can kill nana super easy.
but it's important to remember you don't have to approach her, you can camp her just as hard and use your mobility to do work.

 

[Smasher89]

Yep, and as you can see i just played a bit overly patient in the wrong times. Ill just need to rewatch theses matches a number of times to find the angles i didnt use, for example when he was cornered.

Anything on the falcomatchup?, marth i noticed my reaction to grabs can be better.

 

[Binx]

Ya vs Marth you should try nairing after dthrows at lower percents, its fast enough that he cant fair out of it and you can usually follow up with another grab. Also you approach Marth way to often, make them approach you sometimes and its much easier to land grabs on them, most approaching fairs can be dash dance grabbed if they do it so deep that you cant dodge it with a dash then you can usually shield grab it.

The only other big mistake I saw in the Falco Marth set was that you kept doing the same thing after he smash DI'd the down throw and didnt adjust until he punished you with a di down away spot dodge like 4 times in a row.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I usually don't like to nair marth at low percent from dthrow. I usually prefer usmash or uair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Meh. D-throw SHFFL nair regrab is one of the sickest SoPo gimmicks against Marth though. xD

 

[DerfMidWest]

nair regrab is always sexy.

 

[conix]

Hey, sorry if this is already known, but I was just practicing and inadvertently did a desync off a SH fair, L-canceling only popo.

Doesn't seem too difficult to do, but I thought it was interesting, haha.

 

[ChivalRuse]

20XX. Intentionally missing tech skill.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yeah, L-cancel desynchs have been around a while.

 

[DerfMidWest]

yeah, it's easiest to do with fair.
I actually really like them because they are one of the weird desyncs that start with popo rather than nana.
you can also set them up really quickly, which is pretty awesome.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Or you can dash dance desync if you're cool enough.

But fair has pretty good utility I suppose if you're trying to throw out hitboxes or whatever.

 

[DerfMidWest]

dash dance desync has nana act first

 

[Binx]

If you time a dash dance desynch in a specific way you can have popo act first, its really slow though so I dont think its very practical in a real match.

I still frequently use the short hop fast fall desynch, its a good way to fake aggression if your opponent is already being defensive.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dash dance desync to Nana standing blizzard is really good.

 

[Smasher89]

Not as good as ftilt to blizzarddesynch, which is prob the lowest commitment for one of the greatest pressuretools available.
DDdesynch is impractical sometimes in the way that you are kinda stationary with it, but doing it at a safe distance is still good.
Got an oppoturnity to practice in the 20xxhack, seemed learnable do desynch nana oos on fox laser, ill try more against falco tomorrow i guess. Feels like 20xx is the time when fox laser gets less worth it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The DD -> blizzard desynchs are probably my favorite desynchs in the game because 1) they get out a Nana blizzard (overall most useful thing you can do out of a desynch in my opinion), 2) they're fast, 3) you can opt out of them at any point in the dash-dance if you decide you don't want to do it.

 

[cemo]

ftilt guard (wavedash or standing) and use a jumping blizzard with nana it's more fun.
dash dance desyncs definitely feel the most versatile. if you want to do a popo first desynch then you could pivot out of it, a button gets nana to dash attack, c stick will leave her free. you'll only be able to throw an ice block with popo after an empty pivot though. there was a desync i was looking at where your jump gets eaten if you jump on the same frame as you input a dash dance (the turn around), and you can get nana to jump and do a blizzard or something. that's uh, pretty particular though and probably impossible to get down 100% of the time.

 

[DerfMidWest]

dash dance desync is op.
ftilt is also very good.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey, what do you guys do to avoid the opponent's invincibility when he respawns from a KO?

I used to side-b around the stage if I had Nana, and had decent success with it years ago. But I'm not sure if that is good in the current meta.

I know one thing: I should avoid putting myself near the ledge at all costs. I've lost so many stocks from going to the edge and getting Nana wrecked.

 

[net1234]

it says in the mus ics has a disadvantage against ganon by like 65 35. is this true at all? reasoning behind it? like it says its worse than spamus

 

[ChivalRuse]

Not true at all. ICs are probably even with Ganon. At higher level it becomes more and more in ICs favor.

 

[john!]

i thought ganon wrecked IC's? space fairs -> kill nana in 3 hits -> win

 

[Tuesday]

He does if the ICs are unfamiliar with Ganon's options, but if both players know the MU I'm of the opinion it's even.

 

[ChivalRuse]

There's no such thing as spaced fair against ICs. They can desynch ice block or blizzard and grab Ganon which leads to destruction.

 

[cemo]

...do you just plan on Ganon jumping into your blizzards or getting hit by ice blocks? yes they are probably your best tool in the matchup, but blizzard isn't a guaranteed grab if they are good at the game. grab leads to everyone's destruction so that's not really a matchup point, and Ganon is probably second to Peach in efficient Nana destruction.

characters that wreck ganon usually wreck him in neutral, fox/falco/sheik , but ICs don't really have that luxury. fair and jab are effective at limiting your ground movement and you don't have the aerial mobility/options they do to get over them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ganon's speed is terrible on the ground. Sure, he can throw out big hitboxes, but as long as you stay somewhat near center stage, you have a huge mobility advantage over him. You can actually wavedash downsmash a whiffed fair on reaction (as long as he doesn't do a retreating fair). Blizzard and ice blocks put Ganon in a bad position (assuming you have Nana throw them out). You can waltz up to him and do whatever you want. If he shields, you can grab, if he jumps, you uair.

 

[cemo]

you can't punish a fair with a wd option if they have timed it well. d-smash is definitely too slow. an l cancelled fair is 12 frames while a wavedash is a minimum 13 frames of lag, plus move startup. what is more likely is you wavedash into his jab if you challenge a fair like that. you have a better chance of punishing the jab than the fair.

you can aim to whiff punish the jabs and tilts he throws out to stuff approaches. i like to just put a fair there if i think he'll extend a limb. you could probably also do the shield stun blizzard desync if you dash in and shield the tilt. the fastest way to get in around his fair/jab is probably a dash attack (above cc percent)

i have played with ganons that are comfortable maneuvering around ice blocks and simplifying it to shield/jump is pretty misleading.

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon's speed is terrible on the ground. Sure, he can throw out big hitboxes, but as long as you stay somewhat near center stage, you have a huge mobility advantage over him. You can actually wavedash downsmash a whiffed fair on reaction (as long as he doesn't do a retreating fair). Blizzard and ice blocks put Ganon in a bad position (assuming you have Nana throw them out). You can waltz up to him and do whatever you want. If he shields, you can grab, if he jumps, you uair.

I don't know which Ganon you are facing but there's no such thing as jump forward Fair.. it's like Ganon's worst option to approach..

 

[DerfMidWest]

ganon is very tough for the ICs until you really understand his options.
Likewise, ICs can give ganon a LOT of trouble.

in the matchup, you either need to be playing defensive, or be right up in ganons face and not letting him get any room or get a jab out.
Playing defensive is easier usually, but I like playing aggro, since that's just how I play.

I'd recommend watching Renth's videos of him vs Uberice, they really show how to play the matchup from both sides.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've watched all of Uber Ice's videos like 5 years ago.

@Kage: I didn't say as an approach. There are plenty of times when jump forward fair is good for stage control...

 

[DerfMidWest]

these are recent videos on renths twitch channel.
They were playing together like every week a few months ago before renth moved to a different part of Florida
His old videos against rock crock and linguini are also pretty good though