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Game development; why Cloud isn’t a ballot character and character DLC doesn’t “take too long”

Ingoro

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So, I’m writing this article because after the reveal of Cloud we have tons and tons of people already assuming or even making statements that according to them, Cloud is a ballot character, that “we’re going to see at least a few ballot characters in December” or “Smash update in December has to be last one” or my favorite one “Why did Sakurai chose Cloud over >insert niche FF side character here< character?” I’ve seen these quotes at media sources in our scene that have quite a large group of followers, such as Etika and Gamexplain. They often make statements about the development of characters in smash which are often untrue and misguiding even though they spew them out like their 30year old veterans of the Japanese gaming industry.

As an insider and student of the game industry and somebody who’s getting frustrated by explaining the same thing over and over this is my attempt to offer you guys some fresh perspective on how development actually goes down.

Let’s start off with Sakurai, everyone treats Sakurai as the extreme god and the reason for our existence. Well, after you’ve completed any mode in smash 4 and you’re jumping around credits, do you actually notice how many names you can hit? Have you counted how much people work and worked on this game? They have Sora ltd & Bandai Namco Games developing on this together, with the big boss Nintendo overlooking everything. And that’s just the initial development of the game, this is apart from play-testing, marketing, treehouse, the list goes on. There’s a lot of decisions to be made and with a game of this caliber, thousands of people from all around the world are involved and dependent on its sales. Smash is a top game and an insane income for the companies developing it and Nintendo themselves. They’re all dependent on its success so, let me tell you this; There is not a single thing in this game entirely made by Sakurai himself. Give those other hundreds of people some credit too, Sakurai is just one person.

Next up is character development.
I’m going to keep this part as short as possible but you could probably fill pages describing this process detailed. Keep in mind that for every single step of the process all involved parties (in this case Square Enix, Bandai Namco, Sora ltd and Nintendo’s top people just to name a few) can potentially stop the process or reset it and eventually all of them need to agree on how a character is represented in the game. I know of certain cases where creating a character(not smash) took 1 till 2 years by constantly changing opinions and perspectives and where they had to make tons of different iterations.

Creating a character is sort of like this:

> The idea for a character/game: At a meeting, potential choices are heard either by request of outer companies, polls and of course the development team. It’s going to take at least a week.

> Reaching out to the owner of said character/brand: Before they agree to even have a meeting to consider the inclusion of a character, they probably need to have a meeting internally. After both parties are interested that’s when the character creation start. Could easily take a few weeks before they reach some kind of agreement for stage/item/trophy/characters/anything.

> Start concept character, sketching, moveset ideas: Now this is where the real fun begins, as you know that Chrom from Fire Emblem was in very far development before getting cancelled and replaced by Robin, we have no clue if Robin was actually started on before or after Chrom was cancelled as playable character. Another example: Megaman has his retro iteration but we know that in his final smash has 5 fully fleshed out Megaman iterations. This process takes a few weeks.

> Start developing character visually: After sketching and concepting its moveset, the team can start its 3D model, by this point they might not have settled on which iteration to use so they’ll like make too much instead of too little (weapons, outfits, etc). This process can take up weeks but more likely months.

> Start developing moveset design wise: Implementing moves, with how much range and such, numbers can be changed easily but animations are difficult, balancing already becomes an issue at this point.

> Testing character gameplay: Apparently Sakurai mentioned that he does this all alone, makes sense but it also requires a lot of work tweaking numbers when you have 50+ different characters, stages and items.

> Finishing character visually: Effects like particles, item animations, outro clips for modes, trophy descriptions.

> More gameplay testing: After the first version of the character is done, it goes to treehouse and other testing grounds where teams test it in as much different situations as possible, to find glitches and bugs and that data needs to be communicated back to the development team. This probably goes back and forth for quite a couple of months.


TL:DR: Making a character for smash, especially a 3rd party character takes at least months if not years before the entire process is done. You can’t get just permission by a 5 minute phonecall and a simple ”yes”. Don’t expect ballot character(s) earlier than summer 2016. In case of super smash bros. A lot of different people and company have influence on a character’s process.


Extra:
You have to think in accessibility; for every single character the super smash bros team needs to satisfy the other party that owns said character. The only exception I can think of that are easily accessible for the team are Kid Icarus characters & Kirby characters. Why do you think Dark Pit made it in? The game director owns the freaking character and thus completely eliminates a secondary party he needs to satisfy.

It terms of difficulty of making a character in smash, it goes something like this:

Easy: Pit, Dark Pit.
Game Director owns these characters.

Medium: Mewtwo
Gamefreak is owned by Nintendo but apparently Gamefreak put up some objections against how Mewtwo was portrayed in the series.

Difficult: Megaman
Character isn’t owned by Nintendo or one of Nintendo’s companies. A very big gaming character and icon of a company & series. Must be honorably represented.

If you have any questions or disagree, feel free to leave a post.
 
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Vintage Creep

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Agree. Snake is perfect proof of that. You might think since he was in Brawl, it should be so easy to have him in Sm4sh too, but something must've changed (hopefully till December). Cloud isn't Smash Ballot, he can't be. I actually think he's the "winner", alongside Mega Man, of Brawl's "Ballot". Now with DLC we actually have the chance of getting the winners of this year's Ballot in Sm4sh instead than waiting for Smash 5, but it'll take time nevertheless.
I stand by my opinion: the December Direct will announce some form of season pass for Smash Bros, that will last the entirety of 2016. This will include veterans, newcomers chosen by Sakurai, veterans winners of the Ballot and newcomers winners of the Ballot. And stages, items, and trophies etc... It will be huge, I expect around 10 characters, one every month or something like that. Cloud is probably being used as incentive to get the season pass (buy it and Cloud's free).
I wonder if they're going to announce straight away characters that they didn't even started working on also to convince people to buy the season pass.
It's amazing, the game is out since last year, and it seems like it's just starting pumping out the good stuff.
 

Calibrate

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You say every party has to agree with the character decisions.

So Sakurai has to agree with adding Cloud.

Therefore, Sakurai is at fault.
 

Jenna Zant

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You say every party has to agree with the character decisions.

So Sakurai has to agree with adding Cloud.

Therefore, Sakurai is at fault.
Is it really that bad that Cloud is in the game? At least it isn't something completely ********, like Shrek or John Cena.
 

Snackss

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How is he "at fault," like this was some uncontrollable blight on the game? What a strange thing to say.

Also making video games is hard. Most people don't appreciate how difficult it is. Nothing is as simple as flipping a switch to turn it on or off or just "adding" things in.
 

Pheros

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I think it's possible we could see ballot characters being released earlier than summer. Sakurai and his team probably started working on getting the rights to ballot characters before the ballot ended, maybe as early as late August. Either way, we'll be getting more news in December. ***HYPE TRAIN AWAY!!***
 

Bladeviper

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Agree. Snake is perfect proof of that. You might think since he was in Brawl, it should be so easy to have him in Sm4sh too, but something must've changed (hopefully till December). Cloud isn't Smash Ballot, he can't be. I actually think he's the "winner", alongside Mega Man, of Brawl's "Ballot". Now with DLC we actually have the chance of getting the winners of this year's Ballot in Sm4sh instead than waiting for Smash 5, but it'll take time nevertheless.
I stand by my opinion: the December Direct will announce some form of season pass for Smash Bros, that will last the entirety of 2016. This will include veterans, newcomers chosen by Sakurai, veterans winners of the Ballot and newcomers winners of the Ballot. And stages, items, and trophies etc... It will be huge, I expect around 10 characters, one every month or something like that. Cloud is probably being used as incentive to get the season pass (buy it and Cloud's free).
I wonder if they're going to announce straight away characters that they didn't even started working on also to convince people to buy the season pass.
It's amazing, the game is out since last year, and it seems like it's just starting pumping out the good stuff.
with the way konami is going I honestly doubt snake is ever getting back in
 

Raijinken

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I'm hyped for Cloud's inclusion, I just don't get why they chose him over a Warrior of Light, Cecil, Bartz, or Terra. Then again, the "must have appeared on a Nintendo system" concept from the Brawl days may be less strong now, or they could be counting Theatrhythm and whatnot.

Either way, all good points that more people need to read.
 

Snackss

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I'm hyped for Cloud's inclusion, I just don't get why they chose him over a Warrior of Light, Cecil, Bartz, or Terra. Then again, the "must have appeared on a Nintendo system" concept from the Brawl days may be less strong now, or they could be counting Theatrhythm and whatnot.

Either way, all good points that more people need to read.
Cloud is one of the most iconic characters from the series and would simply make a more intriguing addition than adding some Final Fantasy character under the arbitrary limitation of "has to be relevant to Nintendo somehow." I doubt the decision went "let's add a Final Fantasy character," it was likely that the consideration of adding Cloud came first and that he would be the first Final Fantasy representative was secondary.
 

UberMadman

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There's one factor being overlooked here however, and that is the ballot started in mid April and ended in early October. That's nearly half a year worth of votes. Don't you think that they would have had a decent idea of what characters to implement after the first month, or even the second? Why wait a full 6 months to begin development when the majority of the votes no doubt were submitted early on? I agree that Cloud was likely not the ballot choice, but I am not convinced that they have not been developing ballot characters for a good while at this point, ESPECIALLY when there are currently placeholder slots for 3 more characters in the 3DS version, (one of which is most likely Cloud.)
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Mewtwo isn't "medium difficulty" tbh. Nintendo may own The Pokémon Company, but that somehow doesn't TPC from being super aggressive with their lawyers. There's a reason the Pokémon character amiibo for Smash aren't compatible with Yoshi's Woolly World when all the others are, and there's a reason the Pokémon character costumes in Super Mario Maker don't have Pokémon series sound effects. That reason is The Pokémon Company being as uncooperative as they possibly can.
 
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Crimson23

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I can agree. It's too early for Cloud to possibly be related to the ballot anyway.
Also, just a question-does Sakurai own Bandana Waddle Dee? Just wanna know.
 

Raijinken

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Cloud is one of the most iconic characters from the series and would simply make a more intriguing addition than adding some Final Fantasy character under the arbitrary limitation of "has to be relevant to Nintendo somehow." I doubt the decision went "let's add a Final Fantasy character," it was likely that the consideration of adding Cloud came first and that he would be the first Final Fantasy representative was secondary.
While I agree the NES characters would be less interesting, they had plenty of room for creativity with 4-6. But again, I'm quite happy to see Cloud here. Just surprised.
 

Vapo

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I can agree. It's too early for Cloud to possibly be related to the ballot anyway.
Also, just a question-does Sakurai own Bandana Waddle Dee? Just wanna know.
Yes, Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise and Bandana Dee is part of said franchise. If Bandana Dee won the ballot he would probably be pretty quick to implement in comparison, due to Sakurai owning him and him already having moveset material from Kirby's Adventure Wii/Return to Dream Land.
 

xDizxy

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Ok what about wolf? They don't need permission. His moveset is already made up. All they need to do is make his 3d model or am I missing something here?
 

Crimson23

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Ok what about wolf? They don't need permission. His moveset is already made up. All they need to do is make his 3d model or am I missing something here?
They would have to edit him so his graphical style fits SSB4, get permission to put him in SSB4 (they did for Brawl, but not SSB4) and balance his moveset so it fits the engine and metagame of SSB4.
 

TheFlyingCule

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Personally I feel like Cloud's inclusion was the Smash team looking to add another Video game icon, nothing much more than that. It may have also been a result of Nintendo and Square Enix being a bit more open to each other of recent too.

Final Fantasy, despite how little I care for the franchise, is one of the most iconic franchises in gaming and it only made sense to add someone from there over something like Dragon Quest or Chrono Trigger (Despite this I would have greatly preferred Chrono). Cloud was just picked for being the most iconic character from the franchise, regardless of what connection he may or may not have to Nintendo
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Is it really that bad that Cloud is in the game? At least it isn't something completely ********, like Shrek or John Cena.
The main problem is that we're talking about a character who never had any affiliations with Nintendo. Mega Man, PAC-MAN, and Sonic have managed to get their own games onto Nintendo consoles, but Cloud has not been so fortunate.
 

Jenna Zant

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The main problem is that we're talking about a character who never had any affiliations with Nintendo. Mega Man, PAC-MAN, and Sonic have managed to get their own games onto Nintendo consoles, but Cloud has not been so fortunate.
He's been in Kingdom Hearts, and that one Final Fantasy rhythm game.
 

Babycowland

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Yes, Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise and Bandana Dee is part of said franchise. If Bandana Dee won the ballot he would probably be pretty quick to implement in comparison, due to Sakurai owning him and him already having moveset material from Kirby's Adventure Wii/Return to Dream Land.
It's definitely true that Sakurai was responsible for creating Kirby, but if I remember right, the rights to characters in the Kirby franchise belong to HAL and Nintendo, rather than to Sora, Sakurai's company.

If I'm wrong about this, feel free to correct me. I don't think it really makes a huge difference for Bandana Dee's chances though, since HAL and Nintendo are obviously quite involved in the development of Smash Bros.

So, I’m writing this article because after the reveal of Cloud we have tons and tons of people already assuming or even making statements that according to them, Cloud is a ballot character, that “we’re going to see at least a few ballot characters in December” or “Smash update in December has to be last one” or my favorite one “Why did Sakurai chose Cloud over >insert niche FF side character here< character?” I’ve seen these quotes at media sources in our scene that have quite a large group of followers, such as Etika and Gamexplain. They often make statements about the development of characters in smash which are often untrue and misguiding even though they spew them out like their 30year old veterans of the Japanese gaming industry.
I think one of the main reasons why some media sources are concluding that the Smash update in December has to be the last one is because Nintendo UK's press release noted that "a special broadcast – the last one for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS – will be released in December." Of course, just because the December broadcast will be the last special Smash Bros. 4 one doesn't mean all of the characters will be released immediately after it. I do feel like it's pretty logical to reveal ballot choices then though, even if it's just a Mewtwo situation where you show a model without having a trailer.
 
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KokiriKory

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The ballot's length was a distraction. Leaving the vote open for half a year is ridiculous when you really think about it. Top choices had to have been easily identifiable right from the get go.

So while we're all still over here drumming up support and wondering how the voting is going, I bet they got started on their characters months ago. You think Cloud was all they've been working on since June? There's a team of developers and when they're done with their jobs, they need a new project to work on. It's all about a constant cycle of passing the torch.

The day of the Smash broadcast will be the day all fan voted fighters will be released, as well as Cloud.

And another thing, considering the special circumstances surrounding Cloud, discussions had to have been happening a long time ago. He is unique from the ballot, which is why he was unveiled as so.
 
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LunarWingCloud

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Cloud isn't the Smash ballot winner for the simple fact that the whole Smash team certainly isn't working on the DLC together, most of them had to have moved onto other projects, likely leaving a much smaller pool of people working in the DLC department. On top of that, like what was mentioned, he has to be properly represented. The ballot closed back in the early part of last month, but doesn't give enough time to have all the data they have prepared for Cloud. They have models, animations, entire movesets, almost everything absolutely completed in little over a month, which while with a full staff wouldn't have been a problem at all, we have to remember, Nintendo, Sora, and everyone who worked on Smash likely have other projects; I cannot stress this enough, I don't think the whole dev team is working on the DLC together like when they did the main game. And when the ballots closed they certainly needed time to count the votes in some form even if the counting was somehow automated. A check definitely needed to be made, so there's no way that any ballot character was started right away. My personal thoughts is that ballot winner is already being worked on, but they need enough time to have more to present and that's where the December presentation comes in; to show that off. Will it be a full trailer? Simply a render and an announcement a la Mewtwo? Who knows, but that's basically my thoughts on the subject.
 

Ingoro

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Thanks guys for being interested in the subject! Took a while to write but I'm happy with the enthusiastic replies :)

Agree. Snake is perfect proof of that. You might think since he was in Brawl, it should be so easy to have him in Sm4sh too, but something must've changed (hopefully till December). Cloud isn't Smash Ballot, he can't be. I actually think he's the "winner", alongside Mega Man, of Brawl's "Ballot". Now with DLC we actually have the chance of getting the winners of this year's Ballot in Sm4sh instead than waiting for Smash 5, but it'll take time nevertheless.
I stand by my opinion: the December Direct will announce some form of season pass for Smash Bros, that will last the entirety of 2016. This will include veterans, newcomers chosen by Sakurai, veterans winners of the Ballot and newcomers winners of the Ballot. And stages, items, and trophies etc... It will be huge, I expect around 10 characters, one every month or something like that. Cloud is probably being used as incentive to get the season pass (buy it and Cloud's free).
I wonder if they're going to announce straight away characters that they didn't even started working on also to convince people to buy the season pass.
It's amazing, the game is out since last year, and it seems like it's just starting pumping out the good stuff.
Brawl was one specific game, they didn't have a contract for brawl + any smash games that followed. There's been rumors that Kojima himself was responisble for getting Snake into brawl and as the majority of MGS fans know, Kojima is not in the picture anymore so I think that influenced the the possibility of Snake being Smash 4 a lot.
I'd love a season pass haha, would save me a lot of money probably. Sakurai mentioned in one of the directs that there won't be 'that' much more stages though.


You say every party has to agree with the character decisions.

So Sakurai has to agree with adding Cloud.

Therefore, Sakurai is at fault.
From his perspective, what if SE only allowed him to have either Cloud or no SE representative in the game? Easier decision. There's a good chance the other candidates weren't iconic enough.


I'm hyped for Cloud's inclusion, I just don't get why they chose him over a Warrior of Light, Cecil, Bartz, or Terra. Then again, the "must have appeared on a Nintendo system" concept from the Brawl days may be less strong now, or they could be counting Theatrhythm and whatnot.

Either way, all good points that more people need to read.
I think apart from Cloud and maybe Squall there's no other FF candidate popular enough and yes, I think that is the case. Sakurai showed that with smash4 he felt honored and privileged that Mario, Sonic, Pac-man and Megaman are all part of the same game. Now you can add Ryu and Cloud to that, even more super iconic characters.


There's one factor being overlooked here however, and that is the ballot started in mid April and ended in early October. That's nearly half a year worth of votes. Don't you think that they would have had a decent idea of what characters to implement after the first month, or even the second? Why wait a full 6 months to begin development when the majority of the votes no doubt were submitted early on? I agree that Cloud was likely not the ballot choice, but I am not convinced that they have not been developing ballot characters for a good while at this point, ESPECIALLY when there are currently placeholder slots for 3 more characters in the 3DS version, (one of which is most likely Cloud.)
Yes, true that could very well be the case. Placeholder slots don't mean anything, the most you could get out of it that there's "atleast" three more characters coming which is still not very realistic.


Mewtwo isn't "medium difficulty" tbh. Nintendo may own The Pokémon Company, but that somehow doesn't TPC from being super aggressive with their lawyers. There's a reason the Pokémon character amiibo for Smash aren't compatible with Yoshi's Woolly World when all the others are, and there's a reason the Pokémon character costumes in Super Mario Maker don't have Pokémon series sound effects. That reason is The Pokémon Company being as uncooperative as they possibly can.
I don't even think it's lawyer related, your example of Yoshi's Woolly World is an example of why even though it's all Nintendo developers might cause some struggles. I think Mewtwo's case is one of those examples were they didn't agree on how he was seen by the public and that TPC didn't want to admit to his popularity.


Ok what about wolf? They don't need permission. His moveset is already made up. All they need to do is make his 3d model or am I missing something here?
You're right, he hasn't been in any games since Brawl so there wouldn't be any new moves to add. I think he just wasn't popular and unique enough to be included from the start. However, the reason why he's not here now has to do with Starfox Zero I think. He might be added to be tied in with Star Fox Zero's marketing.


It's definitely true that Sakurai was responsible for creating Kirby, but if I remember right, the rights to characters in the Kirby franchise belong to HAL and Nintendo, rather than to Sora, Sakurai's company.

If I'm wrong about this, feel free to correct me. I don't think it really makes a huge difference for Bandana Dee's chances though, since HAL and Nintendo are obviously quite involved in the development of Smash Bros.


I think one of the main reasons why some media sources are concluding that the Smash update in December has to be the last one is because Nintendo UK's press release noted that "a special broadcast – the last one for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS – will be released in December." Of course, just because the December broadcast will be the last special Smash Bros. 4 one doesn't mean all of the characters will be released immediately after it. I do feel like it's pretty logical to reveal ballot choices then though, even if it's just a Mewtwo situation where you show a model without having a trailer.
Yes, that does sound familiar. Especially there's been a majority of new Kirby games over the past years without Sakurai being involved. However, I think Bandana Dee's inclusion has more to do with not being an unique enough character. Isn't Bandana Dee even developed after Sakurai stopped working on it?
If this is again, an entirely broadcast dedicated to Smash Bros I'm not suprised it's the final one. It's more than a year after the game came out. It's unlikely they'll stop developing for it though, otherwise the ballot is kind of pointless.


The ballot's length was a distraction. Leaving the vote open for half a year is ridiculous when you really think about it. Top choices had to have been easily identifiable right from the get go.

So while we're all still over here drumming up support and wondering how the voting is going, I bet they got started on their characters months ago. You think Cloud was all they've been working on since June? There's a team of developers and when they're done with their jobs, they need a new project to work on. It's all about a constant cycle of passing the torch.

The day of the Smash broadcast will be the day all fan voted fighters will be released, as well as Cloud.

And another thing, considering the special circumstances surrounding Cloud, discussions had to have been happening a long time ago. He is unique from the ballot, which is why he was unveiled as so.
Correct, I also think they've been working on a lot more than what they're currently showing.
Now, what? I highly doubt everything that they have left is going to be released next month. Why do you think that's the case? Awful decision from a marketing's perspective as well.
 

Chief Hotsuin

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TL:DR: Making a character for smash, especially a 3rd party character takes at least months if not years before the entire process is done. You can’t get just permission by a 5 minute phonecall and a simple ”yes”. Don’t expect ballot character(s) earlier than summer 2016. In case of super smash bros. A lot of different people and company have influence on a character’s process.
Assuming some of the characters we'll be seeing weren't in progress during the Smash Ballot. Remember, the ballot was only for suggestion, and l believe the developers would already have had an idea of who would be accepted even before the ballot.
 

Ingoro

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Assuming some of the characters we'll be seeing weren't in progress during the Smash Ballot. Remember, the ballot was only for suggestion, and l believe the developers would already have had an idea of who would be accepted even before the ballot.
True, I consider ballot characters, characters to be decided in the last stages of the ballot, let's say the last month. I honestly believe they opened it up for new ideas or certain characters they have in mind but are doubting their popularity.
 

Mobes

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I think that people are very blindly following the semi-rule of "Smash characters need to be close to Nintendo", when we've had a couple of clearly-not-very-Nintendo characters show up for 2 generations of games. Smash Bros is obviously linked to Nintendo, but it's a fighting game amongst gaming icons.

Especially with Ryu and Cloud, it feels like the devs are looking for exciting, surprising and inspired choices for the fighting game amongst gaming icons. Final Fantasy 7 has been contested over the years over how good it actually is (I've never played it), but you can't deny that Cloud isn't an icon. Both are hype in concept.

I hope that, along with the December direct, we get Sakurai / whoever talking specifics about the ballot result. I don't believe Cloud was a Smash 4 Ballot pick, but rather a company opportunity that presented itself while post-release content was discussed, but it's hard to know for sure.

with the way konami is going I honestly doubt snake is ever getting back in
Even though Konami is done with AAA development beyond PES, it means just that. Konami might very well go deep on mobile phone development, or other low-cost game development. I'd say it's still very possible we'd see something like a Metal Gear 1-remake for phones, which is what I'm expecting.

Can you imagine Keither Sutherlend-voiced Big Boss in Smash 4 tho? OoOOOOooooh :D
 
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Copperpot

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The main problem is that we're talking about a character who never had any affiliations with Nintendo. Mega Man, PAC-MAN, and Sonic have managed to get their own games onto Nintendo consoles, but Cloud has not been so fortunate.
It's about time the development team realized that this restriction would only stand to limit the progression of the series. Smash Bros fans, and gamers in general, should be glad that this happened. It is proof that the game has transcended Nintendo's boundaries and has become a celebration of all games.

Cloud is a gaming icon, arguably the most recognizable character in one of the most successful franchises in videogame history. He deserves to be cast alongside other greats like Mario, Sonic, Megaman, and Link.

Edit: Also, I take this as a clear nod that the Final Fantasy VII Remake is going to be released on the NX.
 
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