Friction and Omegas - It's not DACUS

[Cornstalk]

I've been playing with the Omega stages on the Wii U version mostly to see if there were any size differences and came across something unexpected.

Terrain Friction.

Omega Battlefield and Final Destination were exactly the same, taking Peach 11 Dash animations (more like 10.5) to cross the stage. Upon getting to Omega Mushroom Kingdom U, it took 16 (15.5). Yet all the KO % were identical, so Mushroom Kingdom U couldn't actually be longer than Omega Battlefield and Final Destination.

One stage over to Omega Mario Galaxy and it takes ~13 Peach dashes to travel the stage. That's when I noticed it. The little patch of yellow road made Peach slide forward slightly as her dash animation completed while the grassy areas did not.

KayJay made a video to demonstrate this (thanks!)

So terrain DOES effect your ability to slide and is likely the culprit causing the visual confusion weather DACUS* is or isn't working. The word on the DS 1.04 patch note thread is that DACUS is gone.


UPDATE:

GRASS CUTS YOUR SLIDE DISTANCE BY ABOUT 1/2.
Slides occur from:

• Releasing/reversing the stick while dashing
• Being released from a grab without going air born
• Dropping the shield right after large force applied to shield (Unconfirmed. Based on past games, characters with low friction, like Luigi ,went farther from this kind of hit. It would make sense that it is still friction based in Smash 4 too)

Rolling, walking, running, and fox trot (initial dash animation before sliding occurs) are NOT effected.

Bowser's pseudo wavedash from Over-B custom 2 and 3 -might- be affected, but I'm not able to do it reliably enough to confirm or deny it.


What does this mean?

• Follow-ups on grab releases may leave more characters in jab reach, though they may still be able to get their shield up before the hit lands
• Dash Attack Up smashing covers less distance (easy to see on Fox and Luigi)
• If you have a bad habit of stopping or reversing your dash and putting yourself in the sliding lag state, you'll get out of that animation a little sooner (and hopefully won't slide right into an attack because you don't travel as far) he says from personal experience...
• You need to be aware of the 5 Wii U and 4 3DS stages with grass on For Glory mode, as it may screw up your slide timing

Wii U stages, Standard & Omega) with Grass (if it's green, it's grass and has increased friction):

• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Mario Galaxy
• Yoshi's Island
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Windy Hill Zone
• Mario Circuit (Brawl) (standard only, omega is grass free)
• Skyloft (standard only on certain transformations)

Wooly World has normal friction despite the look and animation of the stage implying otherwise.


3DS stages with Grass:

• 3D Land (standard only)
• Golden Plains (Pipes have normal friction, even on the omega version)
• Tortimer Island (The trees in standard mode also have increased friction)
• Balloon Fight
• Green Hill Zone

Despite looking like grass, Paper Mario has normal friction on both forms.



*DACUS - Dash Attack Cancel Up Smash. Canceling your dash attack animation at the start up with a jump into an up- smash to gain momentum and slide farther across the stage during the Up-Smash animation. Snake has a very visually obvious example of this in Brawl. Click for Video Link

 

[DarkDeity15]

Nice find. People should definitely know about this.

 

[lijero13ss]

Interesting!

 

[adlp]

wow what a nerd

jk nice find bro

 

[B!squick]

So the Omega stage are just like FD except when they're not.

SAKURAIIIIII!

 

[Kofu]

Confirming this is also the case on the 3DS version. It's quite notable on Golden Plains; your speed is clearly faster on the pipes than the grass. It takes Peach 9 dashes to cross Final Destination and 11.5 on Golden Plains. For comparison, it takes Ganon 11 on FD and 13.5 on GP. For Fox, it's 4.5/just over 5. I think the slowing rate is constant for all characters so it's probably not a big deal. Was this a thing in previous Smash games? And do you think this affects the data you already collected @ KuroganeHammer ?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The only thing terrain affected in Brawl regarding traction was ice levels.

Also Ice made tripping more likely.

Terrain also affected pikmin pluck chances.

That's all I know about terrain in previous games.

I don't think this will affect things too much, but it's now more of an argument to not use omega stages.

 

[Kofu]

I have to wonder why it takes fewer Dashes to cross the 3DS's FD than the WiiU's, though. Maybe we're testing it slightly differently? I don't have a WiiU so I can't actually check. I tapped on the circle pad to initiate a dash, then reset it to neutral, them tapped again. Repeat said process until you reach the other side.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

they're different games, people need to stop comparing the two like that =P

the core mechanics will be the same, but please don't expect the wii u version to be a port of the 3DS version

 

[Kofu]

I suppose. It just seems a little confusing to me since, as far as I know, the blastzones are the same on the shared stages, and if moves and "skills" work the same on both versions, the dash distances and stage lengths should be the same.

 

[Cornstalk]

they're different games, people need to stop comparing the two like that =P

the core mechanics will be the same, but please don't expect the wii u version to be a port of the 3DS version

It took a few % more to get the same KO's with Fox vs Peach on the 3DS version doing the exact same thing I did on the Wii U version. So those are definitively wise words

Peach dashing and rolling across Final Destination did show that the surface area of FD should be exactly the same... unless Peach has different animations/distances or friction. Wouldn't even know how to check that though.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Are rolls affected by frictiom though? It seeme dto me that only the sliding is affected.

 

[Tristan_win]

The only thing terrain affected in Brawl regarding traction was ice levels.

Also Ice made tripping more likely.

Terrain also affected pikmin pluck chances.

That's all I know about terrain in previous games.

I don't think this will affect things too much, but it's now more of an argument to not use omega stages.

Interesting enough grab releases were also effected by terrain in Brawl.

When I did some testing for Sheik grab force ground break I found the lines on FD had substance and would prevent characters from sliding over at a certain distance. This allow Sheik to do things like grab force ground break into jabs when normally it would of been impossible. There were no positive results though as it didn't guarantee anything more then what she could already do from a grab break.

edit: I like to pretend my grammar is better now then it was back then. ~Sighs~

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-small-out-of-grab-release-mind-game-plus-fun-fact.210114/

 

[Cornstalk]

Interesting enough grab releases were also effected by terrain in Brawl

Thanks for pointing this out. Quick testing confirms this is true for Smash 4 as well.


Updated the original post to hopefully be more clear.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Wait so JCing a Dash Attack into a JC Upsmash works?

I can't test in-game as I don't have access to the Wii U version yet and my 3DS is currently not on me so...

Can someone else test this? I haven't heard anything on this... Also, adding a JC changes the mechanic, so it isnt a true DACUS, but eh, that doesn't really matter.

 

[Cornstalk]

Wait so JCing a Dash Attack into a JC Upsmash works?

I can't test in-game as I don't have access to the Wii U version yet and my 3DS is currently not on me so...

Can someone else test this? I haven't heard anything on this... Also, adding a JC changes the mechanic, so it isnt a true DACUS, but eh, that doesn't really matter.

[Dashing or Sliding -> Jump -> Up-Smash] seems to behave exactly the same as [Dashing or Sliding -> Up-Smash]

Even putting it on 1/4 speed and using Great Cave Offensive Omega (it's half grass, half normal) with Luigi, his distance traveled during the Up-smash saw no change except for not sliding as far on the grass.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

But those aren't DACUS'?

Those are just JC Upsmash and Hyphen Upsmash. A DACUS requires a Dash Attack to be canceled.

 

[Cornstalk]

But those aren't DACUS'?

Those are just JC Upsmash and Hyphen Upsmash. A DACUS requires a Dash Attack to be canceled.

DACUS was patched out according to our community patch notes

There as a lot of debate on weather it was still in, so I brought this up because grass friction appeared to be an unknown at the time.

So if someone was trying to DACUS on a stage with grass, like a Mario Stage (3DS or Wii U) ,then tried again on Final Destination, it would make it seem like they had done a DACUS correctly because of the increased travel distance. Really though it was an illusion caused by grass reducing slide distance one stage but not the other.


I had personally been confused by slide distance for even a simple running Up-smash before because of grass as well. I liked playing on New Super Mario 3DS Omega because it had walls and a pleasant color pallet. It wasn't until yesterday that I found out why my spacing would sometimes come up annoyingly short. My timing wasn't wrong. It was the Grass reducing my travel distance.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

DACUS was patched out according to our community patch notes

There as a lot of debate on weather it was still in, so I brought this up because grass friction appeared to be an unknown at the time.

So if someone was trying to DACUS on a stage with grass, like a Mario Stage (3DS or Wii U) ,then tried again on Final Destination, it would make it seem like they had done a DACUS correctly because of the increased travel distance. Really though it was an illusion caused by grass reducing slide distance one stage but not the other.


I had personally been confused by slide distance for even a simple running Up-smash before because of grass as well. I liked playing on New Super Mario 3DS Omega because it had walls and a pleasant color pallet. It wasn't until yesterday that I found out why my spacing would sometimes come up annoyingly short. My timing wasn't wrong. It was the Grass reducing my travel distance.

The distance has nothing to do with your ability to figure out if you DACUS'd or not.

All that matters is if you cancel a Dash Attack with an Up Smash. The same goes for JC Up Smash and cancelling a jump with an Up Smash.

 

[SonicZeroX]

The distance has nothing to do with your ability to figure out if you DACUS'd or not.

All that matters is if you cancel a Dash Attack with an Up Smash. The same goes for JC Up Smash and cancelling a jump with an Up Smash.

You're getting it confused, he's basically agreeing with you that there's no DACUS.

It's just originally people mistook DACUS being in 1.0.4 because they were still sliding, and this is why.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You're getting it confused, he's basically agreeing with you that there's no DACUS.

It's just originally people mistook DACUS being in 1.0.4 because they were still sliding, and this is why.

Ah, okay.

Sorry about that.

 

[Burnsy]

I can't believe terrain has such a profound effect over normal momentum physics, hahaha. This is pretty ridiculous. I'm really hoping this gets patched at some point. If you have a character with a long jc upsmash or perfect pivot slide you shouldn't have to worry about whether a stage has grass or some other section of terrain thats going to screw up its length and therefore your spacing. It really doesnt add anything to gameplay, it just makes things needlessly complicated.

 

[erico9001]

The great cave offensive's Omega is just weird... a little over half of it is grass on the left side and the right side is not.

 

[infomon]

Is there anything interesting about this game where people won't say "I hope this gets patched out"?

lol. Terrain physics are back and slightly different in some ways than previous games... cool! Need to explore this. Great discovery btw.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there anything interesting about this game where people won't say "I hope this gets patched out"?

Nope. Change is bad, remember?

not serious

 

[ATH_]

Is it possible that certain Omega forms would be disallowed because of this? Or that there would be a small set of definitive good Omega forms that we could choose? (ex on wii u: Palutena's Temple, Duck Hunt, and BF since they have 3 different layouts below edges)

 

[infomon]

Is it possible that certain Omega forms would be disallowed because of this?

No. This changes nothing except perhaps extremely subtle elements of some player's gamestyles.

 

[ATH_]

No. This changes nothing except perhaps extremely subtle elements of some player's gamestyles.

Alrighty. Just seems like it could be considered in the future.

 

[Cornstalk]

The two main aspects I see grass influencing:

Can certain characters get free hits from a grab release because of it?
This one is worth testing, and I'd like to do it when I have more time to sit down and try with the second player holding shield. Some of the jab combos are pretty good damage and may be a better option then a throw in certain match-ups, particularly if grass means it will help guarantee the connect.

Can it make enough difference for keep away play styles to avoid getting dash -> up-smash?
I really can't think of a good way to test this. Watching match ups specifically for dash to up-smash will likely say more about it then trying to duplicate it in the lab. If characters like Fox and Luigi are regularly seen taking advantage of their slide to close in and attack, then grass is definitely worth looking at to disrupt their approach game. Other wise it's a pretty niche factor that will probably cause as many KO's to land because they DIDN'T slide as far. Just like it will make a KO miss because they didn't slide far enough.


Though I'd probably pick a grass covered stage when playing someone like Peach or Jigglypuff against characters like fox anyway knowing it does hurt their maneuvering ever so slightly.

 

[Burnsy]

Where do we draw the line between "quirky but unique and interesting additions" to the engine and pointless bs like this that doesn't really change a whole lot overall, it just serves to annoy and disrupt consistency. My guess would be that most players would prefer not to have to worry about how a floor texture for some reason affect their slide distance when there's already dozens of other important things related to fighting the opponent on their mind.

Basically I'm trying to say that I don't mind new mechanics being added that I have to become aware of, I just don't really feel like this particular addition was anything the overall competitive community wanted for their game, and it really doesn't do much for the casual experience either. It just seems like we'd be better off without it

 

[MegaMissingno]

Wow, that is weird as hell. I'd say this is an issue that ought to be fixed because Omegas are supposed to be the same and having obscure undocumented differences like this is really confusing. It's especially unfair for For Glory where stages are picked via RNG. Then again, Sakurai didn't seem to have a problem with making the undersides different, so...

However, it's actually not too bad for a tournament setting where players choose to counterpick a specific Omega. There it just adds to the counterpicking. One more reason to say Omegas shouldn't be starters though, because that'd be a mess.

Still, it does hurt online, and it's just plain confusing, so I think it'd be better to patch it. At least the undersides are immediately obvious at a glance, whereas most people would think any inconsistency in slides, if they notice it at all, was their own execution error and never realize something as bizarre and unintuitive as this is what's causing it.

 

[AugsEU]

Well I actually came up with a ruleset a long time ago that could handle any difference in Omega stages, while still keeping the stage variety.

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-i-think-we-should-handle-all-of-these-fds.368358/

 

[ATH_]

I personally think we should restrict the Omegas list due to layout + this. It's not intrusive, but it DOES exist. It's best to keep consistency > laziness.

 

[Jehtt]

Does this only affect Omega stages?

For example, the non-omega Mushroom Kingdom U stage has grass as well. Does your friction get affected there?

 

[Cornstalk]

Does this only affect Omega stages?

For example, the non-omega Mushroom Kingdom U stage has grass as well. Does your friction get affected there?

If it looks like grass, it has grass friction in both regular and omegas. This includes grass in Stage Builder levels too.

Wooly World (Wii U) and Paper Mario (3DS) are the only exceptions. It looks like grass, but the friction is normal.

 

[The 0ne]

what about Gaur Plain? Is that not grass?

 

[Cornstalk]

what about Gaur Plain? Is that not grass?

While it has green on it, the places the characters stand is dirt so the friction is normal.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly until further research is done, all the Omega stages not tested on or have been tested on and aren't the same as Final Destination should be banned from major tournaments.

It doesn't have to be permanent, but if we find anything off on any Final Destination that isn't like the standard version we don't really need it right now, namely APEX (although we got some time on that one since it's 2 months away). Later when the stage list is more developed we can potentially add 1:1 Omega stages that are different from Final Destination (whether 1 or 2 pairs).

Having said that, right now with the meta game being in a infant fetus state, tournaments not having set structure, and all the other issues tournaments run into (customized moves, equipment, other stages on the stagelist, time amount, stock amount, running a tournament on time, 2v2's, 3v3's, 4v4's, etc)., THIS IS NOT A ISSUE WE NEED AT MAJORS!

It is too much hassle for the players, TO's, and everyone involved with all these other issues Smash WiiU is facing, especially as a player if you truly want to win your match/tournament.

Smaller tournaments and TO's though should feel free to do whatever.

Basically I'm trying to say that I don't mind new mechanics being added that I have to become aware of, I just don't really feel like this particular addition was anything the overall competitive community wanted for their game, and it really doesn't do much for the casual experience either. It just seems like we'd be better off without it

And that weird design choice explains the flaws in Sakurai and company's miscellaneous bad game designs that they refuse to learn from dating back to some extent to the original Smash Bros title; certain things that the fans want and is easy to do aren't done "because reasons".

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Nice find, I guess they didn't change those files.

Seems like another form of laziness though on their part, IMO.

 

[R!otStar]

Thats something to thing about when picking omegas......guess the "just a different skin" mentality is out the window now :3