French ruleset project : MK solution v1.0

[teluoborg]

French Ruleset Project : MK Solution v1.0
​

France has been busy those past months : the community discussed the MK ban, bannied MK for 2,5 tournaments and finally unbanned him in February.
After that a few french players have been working on a ruleset that would resolve the MK problem we were having.

Disclaimer : this ruleset will not be used for BBI or other tournaments held by Leon.
This is a first trial and has not been used yet.
The purpose of this thread is to collect feedback in order to refine it.


THE RULESET

I'll skip the "8 stock, 3 minutes" part, standard rules are applied.

There are 4 rules that aim to reduce MK's power in tournament :

• Double MK teams are banned
• Ledge Grab Limit : 40 for everyone but 30 for MK (60 for ICs)
• If a player wins a match with MK he can't ban a stage for the next match, even if he doesn't plan to play MK.
• If, after losing a match, a player decides to counterpick a stage from the "hard counterpicks" list he can't play MK during this match.
  [collapse=Stage List]Starters :
  • Destination Finale (Final Destination)
  • Champ de bataille (Battlefield)
  • Smashville (Smashville)
  • Ile de Yoshi (Brawl) (Yoshi's Island (Brawl))
  • Stade Pokémon 1 (Pokémon stadium 1)
  Soft counterpicks :
  
  • Château Assiégé (Castle Siege)
  • Vaisseau de combat Halberd (Battleship Halberd)
  • Traversée de Lylat (Lylat Cruise)
  • Stade Pokemon 2 (Pokemon Stadium 2)
  • Frégate Orphéon (Frigate Orpheon)
  Hard counterpicks :
  
  • Course Arc-en-ciel (Rainbow Cruise)
  • Place Delfino (Delfino Plaza)
  • Profondeurs de Brinstar (Brinstar)
  [/collapse]

Those rules are pretty self explanatory : if you play MK you have less stages to counterpick on and more to be counterpicked on, if you don't play MK there's nothing new (except you won't be as screwed stage-wise when playing against MK).

The main complain that has been heard so far is that when you counterpick someone with a hard counter there's a risk he'll pick MK and you won't be able to do so.
The answer is that you should choose your stages as safely as you play in game (aka don't pick that stage if you're not sure if the opponent has a decent pocket MK, or if you don't master the stage).


There, have fun a criticize constructively.

 

[Marc]

I'll respond to each individual rule, but I'll say in advance that no solution is warranted without presenting the problem first.

1. Double MK teams are banned.
MK is a very common and dominant character in teams, but I don't think double MK is necessarily that much better than MK + another good teams character (Wario/Lucario etc.). This rule would force diversity, but would only have any sort of effect if double MK teams are that common in France. Not entirely against it, but I'd have to see results that show it is warranted (how often does double MK win tournaments in France?).

2. Ledge Grab Limit : 40 for everyone but 30 for MK (60 for ICs).
No major issue with that, he's the worst offender in terms of how long he can take between regrabbing the ledge as opposed to DK, G&W, Pit etc. You would still need to be able to come up with data that show MK players time people out that often while being under 40 and over 30 ledge grabs. Otherwise it's a rather hollow rule catering to gut feelings.

3. If a player wins a match with MK he can't ban a stage for the next match, even if he doesn't plan to play MK.
Bad rule. What you're doing here is discouraging picking MK in game 1 or 2 and nerfing players for doing it. You could still go MK in the last game of the set without repercussions and I don't like having this sort of exception without justification. Why should MK not be allowed a stage ban? There are plenty of character/stage combinations not optimal for him and this will effectively prolong sets for no reason if people can only win when they lock their opponent in the hardest possible counterpick.

4. If, after losing a match, a player decides to counterpick a stage from the "hard counterpicks" list he can't play MK during this match.
Kind of silly. If a character breaks a stage, the stage has to go, you don't arbitrarily say "this and this character can't pick it". In Melee we didn't tell Peach players that they weren't allowed to pick Mute City anymore, we just banned Mute City instead. It's the same in Brawl for several stages where Dedede would be extremely good, though those stages usually had other issues too. Finally, Brinstar and RC have issues of their own. Under normal European or Japanese rules, they are not legal and you can simply use your ban on Delfino, eliminating all so-called "hard counterpicks" MK could have in a legitimate way. Also, what if the opponent counterpicks one of those three, would the MK player be forced to switch character as a result of a choice he had no control over? Instead of this sort of catch-all rule, you need to figure out when and why MK has a counterpick that is just too much.



IMO the typical European or APEX 10 stages don't allow for anything too broken provided you have your stage ban, but if it's still not okay, why not try the Japanese ruleset for a while? It removes the hard counterpicks and doesn't let any character ban a stage out of what remains.

 

[Mr-R]

May I ask why all these special metaknight rules are even being applied?

 

[xDD-Master]

After that a few french players have been working on a ruleset that would resolve the MK problem we were having.

 

[Gardex]

 

[Mr-R]

After that a few french players have been working on a ruleset that would resolve the MK problem we were having.

Seriously, what problem o_o

 

[Marcbri]

OMG Brinstar WHYYY

 

[Miguel1991]

May I ask why all these special metaknight rules are even being applied?

The French community as the French BBR were ambivalent about the MK ban. The ban was voted for last year (don't remember the exact date) but MK was made legal again a few months after that. And by talking with french players, we knew that we needed a solution between simply banning him and making him 100% legal. That's why we've tried to find a compromise.

With these rules, the main broken characteristics of MK are limited (planking and the fact that he breaks the CP system). At least, that's what we think.

@Marc: We think that RC, Brinstar and Delfino are perfectly legit stages except when one of the players uses MK. So yeah, we could have dropped these stages but it would have been a waste. The Melee players chose to ban Mute City, well, we've chosen not to allow MK on some stages. Does it mean we are the ones who are wrong ?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Delfino is perfectly legit even if one of the players uses MK in a very great number of matchups. Might wanna check your facts.

And yeah, I'd be interested in seeing recent french tournament data that elevates this above "the community was being whiny and dumb" status. ^^ It's not a terrible solution, but I really have to ask the question: what problem?

 

[Miguel1991]

The problem is that a great part of the community want him banned. You can check this to realize that a large amount of French players are pro-ban.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem is that a great part of the community want him banned. You can check this to realize that a large amount of French players are pro-ban.

Yeah, as said, "community being whiny and dumb". Just looking at some of those posts makes me cringe and think, "Would the Street Fighter community do something like this?". I don't blame you guys, you did the best you could with the situation, it's still just disappointing to see this happen. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I've been missing the results with 3-5 MKs in top 8 in France...

 

[Marc]

With these rules, the main broken characteristics of MK are limited (planking and the fact that he breaks the CP system). At least, that's what we think.

That doesn't really explain why he wouldn't have a stage ban. Is it a given that in every matchup there is only one possible counterpick against him?

@Marc: We think that RC, Brinstar and Delfino are perfectly legit stages except when one of the players uses MK. So yeah, we could have dropped these stages but it would have been a waste. The Melee players chose to ban Mute City, well, we've chosen not to allow MK on some stages. Does it mean we are the ones who are wrong ?

It's hard to talk in terms of right and wrong with a game where the community tends to shape the ruleset, but it doesn't hurt to look at the past. Up till now characters have always been favoured over stages and, while that means less stages, it also means an internally consistent ruleset without too many character-specific rules. Besides it not being practical (how many rules until it becomes too much for even regulars to remember?), it also sets you up for a slippery slope where you essentially play God with the metagame by adding rules to specific characters and matchups just because people have more fun that way. Note that I am also against banning Dedede's matchup-specific infinites and special suicide rules for some characters with suicide moves. At some point you either have to accept the game for what it is or just not play it competitively.

It's a little surprising to me that part of France would cling to more stages btw. Traditionally they were closer to the Japanese rules and even the US is gradually moving away from having RC and Brinstar legal for problems those stages have with or without MK. There's not much I can tell you if you absolutely without any doubt want those stages legal, because then you are giving MK some pretty strong counterpicks. Considering it's not really a standard choice anymore though, does the character have to suffer for that? He's also not the only one good on those stages, it's just that only a small set of characters realistically performs well on them in the first place. My suggestion is still to get rid of those two or perhaps even try the Japanese rules for a while.

The problem is that a great part of the community want him banned. You can check this to realize that a large amount of French players are pro-ban.

That's not going to mean much to anyone reading here, because it doesn't show that MK is a dominant force in France that needs to be nerfed. As far as I know Gluttony and Leon are still the best players there and an aggregate of opinions on a supposed problem doesn't necessarily mean the problem exists. It's not convincing to outsiders if you can't show that MK wins most tournaments and even if he does you have to realize that most fighting games are dominated by only a few characters.

 

[Nintenpro]

There were 5 MKs in the top8 (including 4 MK mains) in the last tournament in France :v
Anyway this is not a thread about MK, a lot of French players think there is a MK problem so deal with it.

That doesn't really explain why he wouldn't have a stage ban. Is it a given that in every matchup there is only one possible counterpick against him?

You just have more options to counterpick him.

 

[Marc]

There's like 5 million Falcos in all Melee results. I personally responded to the proposed rules under the assumption that there is a "problem", but it should be fair for people to question that. You're not going to get validation that easily.

As far as having more options to counterpick MK goes... that's where you can't really ask for criticism anymore as it gets into drawing subjective lines. You could also ask people to do 25 pushups whenever they pick MK so half the smash scene physically can't anymore, but don't expect it to be an international standard. Most people would never set a character apart to that extent and would instead look into why they're having problems. Japan doesn't have them, most of Europe doesn't have them and large parts of the US don't have them. The most obvious answer will always be in the stage list and perhaps the mentality to pick up other top tier characters. If you don't want to change the stage list at all for whatever reason, then you're already setting yourselves apart and it's all fair game, but the rest of the world won't really be able to help you if you run into problems that emerge as a result.

 

[TreK]

1-Deimos : MK
2-Leon : Marth
3-Okals : ZSS, Marth
4-LeSyd : MK
5-Anoer : MK, Wario
5-Sangoten : Pika
7-Blubo : Ike, MK
7-Myollnir : MK, ICs

9000 - me : Luigi
5/8 MK

[quote='Diamond Team Tournament, dec 3rd]1 - Leon : Peach
2 - Myollnir : PT, ICs, MK
3 - Bjay : MK, Marth
4 - Elexiao : ROB, Snake, MK
5 - Yami : Peach
5 - Dany : Marth, Falco
7 - Deimos : MK
7 - Nives : Lucario

9000 - me : Luigi
4/8[/quote]
[quote='House is in session, oct 20th]MK banned on CPs (test ruleset)

1 - Leon : Marth, Snake, Peach
2 - Myollnir : ICs, MK, PT
3 - Deimos : MK, Falco, DDK
4 - BJay : MK, Marth
5 - Killone : MK, Marth, DDK
5 - Neath : MK, DDK
7 - Nintenpro : ROB, DDK
7 - Anoer : Wario, Marth, MK

9000 - me : Luigi
6/8[/quote]
The tourney on dec 20th, MU8, had MK banned except if both players agreed on reallowing him for the set. That's why there's only 1 MK in the top 8 of that tourney. I placed 9000th at that tourney, btw :D


Just tourney data to show that we indeed had a problem with MK. It's smaller than it was in the US, but it was still enough for us to consider it a problem. Maybe because we are whiney Frenchtards. But that's not the point.

The very goal of this ruleset is to maintain MK in the game with rules nerfing him to a point where he is at the same level as any other top tiered character : stomping half of the roster, even with the other half, and with a couple counters. With such characteristics, he is way more acceptable for the majority of our community.
This is what you should insult us about if you disagree. Not us having a problem with MK.

And btw, I'm not really giving away any opinion here (read : I'm not as favorable as this post makes me sound).

 

[Marc]

The Monkey Unit results are pretty bad, but not so much the other two. Like, it's your call what constitutes "too much", but if people have him as one of three characters and he doesn't even get first, it's not a big deal. At Pound 4 Melee singles 7 out of top 8 Melee players had used Fox at some point in the tournament, but this is rapidly devalued once you realize Fox is an attractive pocket secondary and also just that good. This is not to belittle your problem, but results like that happen even in "healthy" metagames.

But yeah, just see whether your community would consider going Japanese for a while. What it does is:
-Less heavy CP stages, this mostly hurts MK in the sense that he goes from 3 amazing counterpicks to like... 1? I think Delfino would still be legal, but that's it.
-Stage list with mostly neutral layouts is very good for characters like Olimar, ICs, Diddy, Snake etc. MK doesn't suck on them, but I feel it makes other top tiers a little better if they are about as comfortable as he is on every stage.
-No one gets to ban a stage. There aren't any extreme counterpicks, but within what's left you will always get your best stage (FD...). You could opt to still have stage bans though.
-No character-specific rules for MK. You would still have the LGL and could consider doing something about teams, but you would not need the other two rules. The cost is quite a few stages, but perhaps you could try going with 10 or 11 first like the rest of Europe. The biggest thing is no more Brinstar/RC.

 

[CYVE]

Brinstar and RC suck and should not be legal o:

 

[TreK]

Well I feel that Fox example could be applied to Marth, but not to MK. Melee Fox has counters and is doomed to remain that 'attractive pocket secondary'. Almost everybody in France has a pocket Marth. Dany, Okals and Leon are the only ones that main him iirc. This is not really the case for MK (Blubo, Myollnir, Neath (and I but that doesn't matter, I suck at brawl) all switched to MK maining)
The French scene has a weird 2011 PR, which is why we don't want to publish it on SWF : it's irrelevant. Leon was, up until now, far above the 3 players that were right under him, but (and I quote him, here) he reached a skill cap he has yet to overcome in September/October. Deimos managed to catch up on him only after APEX. We'll see this weekend and next weekend if stuff turned around. Leon being so far above up until now is why I don't consider instinctively first place characters to matter much more than the rest of the top8, I apologize for that.

We can still view rulesets as a solution to a problematic MK because there's clearly a matter with that guy :
-Japan's very early response to this problem was banning every stage except for starters, which worked because on starters, MK has got several counters like DDK, most probably ICs and maybe Snake (gotta check on my info here but you get the point)
-The US' response was actively looking for a counter for 4 years, then banning him when they realized such thing didn't exist without altering their CP system and what tickled them about MK was that he was breaking the CP system's principle in the first place.
-Our response in Europe was reducing the stagelist to 10 stages with no MK mega-CP because MK wasn't problematic enough to warrant a ban or a 3 stages long stagelist considering our aggressive metagame. It worked for a while in France, but it doesn't anymore : apparently MK has grown back into a problem. And it made us sacrifice Brinstar which we all agreed was only banworthy because of MK (tbh, I don't really care about RC but that may be just me : as much as I enjoy this stage, the impossible to recover from collision bugged throws at the top are very similar in how they work to walkoff throws which makes all walkoffable stages instant bans)

Because we didn't want to ban him nor play on three stages, we had to come up with something else : first the 'MK banned on CPs' rule which didn't work and was unpopular, and then this new ruleset, which has yet to be tested (idk why the French BR decided to publish it over here without data to back it up, I'm not part of it and they do stupid stuff when I'm not around :V)

 

[Marc]

Well I feel that Fox example could be applied to Marth, but not to MK. Melee Fox has counters and is doomed to remain that 'attractive pocket secondary'. Almost everybody in France has a pocket Marth. Dany, Okals and Leon are the only ones that main him iirc. This is not really the case for MK (Blubo, Myollnir, Neath (and I but that doesn't matter, I suck at brawl) all switched to MK maining)

Melee Fox actually doesn't have counters (if so, I'd be curious to hear them). On paper he's still the best character with at worst some even matchups and I feel you underrate him as a solo main, because he gets consistent placings that way too (he placed 3rd, 4th, 2x 9th and 13th on APEX if you look at top 16, despite two of the best Fox mains not attending...). The one major issue he has is that it is hard to consistently tap into his potential and even bad characters can hurt him a lot for mistakes due to Melee's mechanics, making it often a better idea to use him for specific matchups instead of all the way through. The best Fox mains are overall consistent though and if Armada is to be dethroned, it's likely to be either by Hbox' Jiggs or Mango's Fox, though at that level it's player moreso than character (Peach is definitely not the best in the game... nor is Young Link ).

MK has no bad matchups either and is in many ways similar to Melee Fox in that everyone knows the matchup and he can be hurt badly for mistakes (chaingrabs, Snake). He's both good as a main and a secondary. If you want to bring Marth into the equation, the same more or less goes for him even if he is somewhat worse. He has quite a few matchups that aren't free, but he's not really held back by anything either and has had Europe on lock for years now. To me it makes no real difference whether 5 out of top 8 players use MK or Marth, not to mention you'd see even more Marth the further you limit MK.

It's rather interesting on this note that SSB64 Pikachu has no matchups he doesn't win outside of a few character-stage combinations that are even. In that game too though, even bad characters can get long strings. Smash has never been that balanced.

The French scene has a weird 2011 PR, which is why we don't want to publish it on SWF : it's irrelevant. Leon was, up until now, far above the 3 players that were right under him, but (and I quote him, here) he reached a skill cap he has yet to overcome in September/October. Deimos managed to catch up on him only after APEX. We'll see this weekend and next weekend if stuff turned around. Leon being so far above up until now is why I don't consider instinctively first place characters to matter much more than the rest of the top8, I apologize for that.

Eh, first place still matters even if you feel the best player is an outlier. Not to mention it's natural for people to catch up to him at some point... but it would be a problem if it's MK, who no one denies is the best character? I feel people are pretty much never satisfied anymore and are unrealistic in what is required to keep the character acceptable. It's not okay if he wins, it's not okay if he loses and he only has even matchups if they always beat him, otherwise it's just a fluke. I'm kind of exaggerating, but I feel people need to redefine what they expect out of top tier characters and see how realistic this is, also beyond the scope of Brawl.

We can still view rulesets as a solution to a problematic MK because there's clearly a matter with that guy

While your assessment of the three rulesets (Japan/Europe/US) isn't necessarily wrong, I think it's important to point out that at least Japan and most of Europe did not base their ruleset around MK. A limited stage list is what felt right from the beginning and is not a compromise if it's been that way since day 1. But yeah, MK has not been able to function well under large stage lists, which makes him once again similar to Melee Fox... most stages banned from Melee were banned because of him and he still has no bad stages.

The choice still seems to be between less stages or a ban and most of the world is going with the first. If you want to find a middle road, it'll be formed through arbitrary lines, but if it makes your region happy you can always do whatever you want.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The main question that the OP left me with was: what MK problem? Really, what MK problem are you talking about? The only results that look remotely problematic are the ones from "House is in session" and that one looked polarized in terms of character usage in general, not just in MK's case [4 Diddies, 3 Marths and MK didn't even win the tourney!]. Only one of those 3 tourneys was won by an MK and 4/8 or 5/8 [which includes pocket MKs] doesn't really look like anything to worry about.

Double MK ban in teams is something I'm not necessarily against though I don't know that much about teams. Double MK may or may not be the best team there is but the main problem in my book is that you most likely need at least an MK in your own team to get a chance to beat double MK. That's something that might fall into the realm of "over-centralizing" the [doubles-]metagame. Double MK can be beaten for sure, but I'm not sure if a team without at least one MK has a realistic shot at pulling it off. If I knew more about doubles I'd find it easier to make a decision but all in all a ban for double MK is something I wouldn't disagree with, if only for the fact that it's still possible for ever MK player to use their character [they just have to team with a non-MK partner, in which case there's still a wealth of great team partners].

 

[xDD-Master]

I can completely agree with the last two posts in this thread

 

[Lord Chair]

I honestly don't think that it's up to non-Frenchies to decide whether or not MK is a problem in France, that's not the purpose of this thread. Apparently France feels like they have an MK problem or at least that MK is worth building a ruleset around, there's nothing anyone not from France can say to refute that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Of course the decision is theirs in the end but I don't think they don't care about our opinions considering they've put the issue up for discussion here.

 

[TreK]

Basically what Chair said, except it sounds more believable when it's not a Frenchie that says it x)

Can't speak for my BR here Gheb, but I'd say the reason they wanted feedback is to see if non-Frenchies would refuse to move their ***** to France if a large scale tournament with this ruleset was organized : having 50% of the expected attendance is just as bad for our community as banning MK and letting him in.

And if you non-Frenchy players refuse that 'middle road', as Marc calls it, fine, Leon refuses this too and we still homo him. Then try to bring up another middle road idea which would fit better then, because that's definitely what France is looking for atm.

 

[Marc]

That quickly becomes a question of what the individual prefers and how it affects them as a player, as limiting a character like that is pretty much unprecedented.

There still has been no argument as to why part of France is hellbent on having Brinstar and RC legal. Only a handful of characters benefits from those stages and it gives MK very strong CP options. I could maybe agree to not allowing MK players to pick either of those, though they should be allowed to stay if the opponent counterpicks it. My hesitation to enter such a tournament would already start with the fact that they are legal though, so take that as you will. This would at least take care of the CP "problem", any other rule seems even more arbitrary, ranging from no stage bans to handicaps to having less stocks, it's all the same.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

CiB was the first - and last - international tourney that had either stage legal and that was in the summer of 2009. There was no such thing as an "MK problem" in sight. The decision to ban these stages had nothing to do with MK and there were literally no complaints about these stages not being legal [even Cadet is OK with it now]. It really confuses me why these stages are still mentioned in the context of the MK ban.

 

[Marc]

That's moot, as we're to assume every perceived problem is an actual problem.

I dunno, having more stages legal is definitely one of the things that set the US apart from the rest of the world and now another region with that configuration runs into similar issues. I agree that we didn't ban those stages because of MK, but at the same time I think one tournament in 2009 isn't enough evidence to say that he doesn't happen to benefit from them a great deal.

 

[TreK]

That's just out of personnal curiosity here, but seeing you guys take position against RC/Brinstar and not saying a thing about PS2 looks a bit unexpected to me. The stage is really unpopular worldwide mostly because it takes some time to learn, and we have yet to make Leon have it legal in the tourneys he hosts so I expected some reactions here.
How is PS2 viewed outside of France ? (positive feedback might mean Leon will consider making it legal, as appealing foreigner is the main goal of his ruleset)

Back on Brinstar/RC, Gheb please give me the reasons that were used to ban Brinstar if it's not about MK, because if it's not MK related, it means I'm simply not aware of them (and I mustn't be the only one).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PS2 is only accepted in Germany and even there people don't really mind if it's banned [then again, few people would mind banning CS either I guess].

RC / Brinstar were generally considered too disruptive stages to be allowed. Nobody objectively drew a line how much is "too much" but in case of those two stages there was literally no disagreement from anybody when the decision was made to ban it. In Brinstars case there's also permanent sharking [and let's face it, the sharking there is virtually permanent minus some couple of seconds where the acid covers everything except the top platform], which is why most people feel like Brinstar is the bigger offender here

 

[Marc]

I would not have PS2 legal, but it's kind of whatever if it is. It's rather neutral matchupwise and will not be picked often as it's in the counterpick list only, there usually are better options. The basic layout is fine, but the drastic changes in physics on transformations are the reason most people dislike it. I don't think Germany would not travel if it weren't legal, they wouldn't be able to go many places if that were the case.

RC has a very different type of gameplay as opposed to all other legal stages. While there are some slow parts, it definitely favours characters that can get around easily. I don't think MK is the only character that can excel on it, but it does limit your options and while a character like G&W is good there, he's not that great against MK in general. I believe one of the reasons that Pikachu is considered even with MK in the US is that he's actually not bothered by his counterpick stages as much on top of what he has already going for him, but if you don't play him or possibly Wario, you're pretty much left picking MK here. I don't think characters like Snake are even that bad on RC, but it's clearly not what they would prefer and in the awkward European hybrid stage list of mostly neutrals, a counterpick like this has a relatively heavy impact.

Brinstar has disruptive acid and hitbox extending bubbles, not to mention you can easily shark its neutral state. To be fair, it's more acceptable as a stage to me than RC is, but in terms of matchup neutrality it's probably worse. MK isn't the only character that would pick it as it's apparently good for characters like Ness, but the problem is that those tend to not be very relevant. When it was still legal here, people would often auto-ban it against MK.

 

[Gardex]

I find playing against MK on RC with G&W really easy compared to neutrals :$

 

[Greward]

G&W is pretty good vs MK on brinstar and RC, while he sucks in neutral stages

i would just use japanese ruleset. BF/SV/FD as starters, YI/LC/PS1 as CPs, 10 minutes. we tried it in the last tourney we held in spain and god i dont want to play again on halberd never again

 

[Marc]

My point is that while G&W does well there, it's not a character people would commonly play for entire sets anymore (in that matchup at least) and to just secondary him for RC seems like a stretch.

I was under the impression the Japanese also sometimes use Delfino and more or less rotate stages from time to time. I'm still open towards using what they use, but it would have to be fairly consistent.

 

[leffen]

Melee Fox and MK are not comparable in any way.

Melee fox is not even regarded as the best by MANY MANY players (including most top players) and he is not considered dominant or overpowered.

There are a LOT of fox players, so there are a lot of fox players in bracket because most pools have a large percent of fox players in them. He has TERRIBLE ratio of ppl maining him - results where MK has a great ratio. Fox having more players is mostly due to him being fun, not due to him being op (see: Melee Jiggs). Marth and Peach all have much better results than Fox, historically, too.

Fox has legitimate counters and his matchups with the top are HIGHLY debateable, most people consider him to have some, if not a few disadvantageous matchups (Falco, Jiggs, Marth [esp on FD which cannot be banned and can often be picked twice a set])
With metaknight all you have is "Diddy/IC/Falco might potentially be even on FD [which is always banned] not considering RC/Brinstar and Metaknight may not use anything thats broken [DownB infinite, planking]"

Furthermore, noone ever ever ever makes a case of Meta knight actually LOSING something or puts him below #1 spot in brawl, and this was has been so since 1 year after the games release while Melee is extremely subjective after 10.



I just wanted to point this out. Please leave Melee out of the discussion since the circumstances are extremely different and you guys don't seem to know all that much about it.

Myself, I think MK is CLEARLY broken enough to where he should be banned, but brawl is having a super hard time surviving as and dividing the community is not worth the risk.
I think as long as we use a japanese stagelist it'll be okayish. Using anything else is just stupid imho.

 

[Marc]

I don't know whose opinions you are considering, but Fox is first in both the NTSC and PAL tier list. If you look at the individual votes, many people who voted him that high are good players (they're in the pdf files). It's debatable whether Puff and Falco aren't better tournament performers, but the character hasn't really gotten worse recently (if anything, Mango and Javi boosted him). If you really think Fox has three bad matchups, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Either way he's obviously not at the same level of dominance as MK is, as people do question him being the best, but consensus on his status doesn't seem as negative as you make it out to be.

Melee will always be brought up in the context of this debate, for better or for worse. *shrug* But yeah, Japanese ruleset da bess.

 

[teluoborg]

Hum yes, going japanese style on the stages has been discussed during the making of this ruleset, but we eventually came to a point where we decided to keep MK legal and still have some stage diversity.
With this in mind this is the simplest and most complete ruleset we could come up with.
(and now that I'm typing it I realize this should have gone into the OP, whoops).

 

[Gardex]

What's the point of stage diversity? You guys only play on Smashville anyway.

 

[TreK]

What's the point of stage diversity? You guys only play on Smashville anyway.

Very untrue.

 

[Gardex]

Where I come from, we call that a joke.

Although, I did take the time to youtube "Leon glutonny", just out of curiosity.
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/189/leonglutonny.png

 

[Greward]

MK is clearly broken and it should obviously be banned for being overpowered. that's a fact. it doesnt mean its unbeatable, but he's way better than the other chars by a whole lot. if u want him allowed, japanese ruleset is the only way, and i would vote japanese ruleset even with MK banned. If u guys try it, i'm sure u won't miss those terrible stages u use to allow.
Melee also has like 6-7 stages allowed and i don't see them complaining about that as much as we do.
Brawl is terribly unbalanced, banning stages to a japanese ruleset would make a game much more evenish on top tier chars but worse for the high/mid, while banning MK isn't done cause we don't want to ban a char in a game as bad as this is, but clearly having stages like brinstar or RC would make ppl play more different characters.