Frame Count II: ZSS vs Shields 9/7/2015 UPDATE

[Dr. Tuen]

INTRODUCTION​

Hello all, welcome to the second edition of "Frame Count," a series that investigates our hunches and feelings regarding ZSS' capabilities and puts numbers and pretty graphics to it. In the last thread, the viability of a flip kick frame trap was confirmed [REF 1]. This time, the viability of ZSS' moves on foe's shields is investigated. Is down smash safe on shield? What about paralyzer? Back air? This thread aims to find answers to, or estimations for, those questions.

METHODS​

This involves the use of Zero Suit Samus frame data [REF 2] alongside relevant shielding duration data [REF 3] and shield stun/hitlag data [REF 4, REF 5] to assess her move-on-shield viability.

For moves which do not have official frame data on cool down (i.e. all of ZSS' special moves), estimations were made by comparing their end cooldown with another move with a known number of ending frames (normal moves for any character). This was used to achieve rough frame data (plus/minus 3 frames) for charged and uncharged paralyzer. This is a necessary estimation to further this research because the primary author does not own recording equipment and cannot conduct more in-depth trials. If anyone else can obtain that data, it would be welcomed, added, and referenced.

When the analysis is complete, colorful representations are made for easier visualization of the data and the advantage/disadvantage produced. This is meant to spark discussion on the follow ups we may have, the danger present in using various moves on shield, and to confirm or waive the validity of common assertions made with regards to her moves on shield.

Early and late shield lock hits are considered in the visual representations. More details regarding these frames are in the background section.

BACKGROUND - SHIELDS​

A short background is necessary to frame the layout of the visual representations. Shielding can be broken down into three parts, as seen in REF 3.

Shields in Smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

If someone shields an incoming hitbox on frames 1, 2, or 3, they earn a powershield. After some research, it seems like the data hasn't necessarily been mined regarding powershields... but it seems that hitlag applies normally but all shield lock and shield drop lag frames are reduced to 1, should the player choose to drop their shield immediately [REF 6]. Perfect shields are not the subject of study in this thread. It is widely known that a perfect shield nets a great advantage for your foe. If they are perfect shielding frequently, be wary.

Moving on, frames 4-11 are shield lock frames. If you shield and release, you must move through these frames before you start shield drop frames. If you are struck during the shield lock frames, they will be applied after hitlag and shield stun frames [REF 7, REF 8]. As another important note: a player may perform out of shield options during these shield lock frames. This means that a move hitting EARLY or LATE during shield lock frames makes a difference in assessing the opponent's options. This is considered in the analysis.

Finally, if a player chooses to drop their shield, this takes 7 frames.

RESULTS​

These images have been iterated upon and their colors/abbreviations do not exactly match the first Frame Count thread. As such, an updated key is detailed.

Image Key:
ST - Start Up Frames
ATK - Attack Frames (often attacks hit once, so the first attack frame is used alone)
HITLAG - As the name implies, these are hitlag frames. For moves that make direct contact, both characters experience this. For projectiles, this only applies to the shielding foe.
ENDLAG - The cool down on attacking moves
S.L. - Shield Lock
S.S. - Shield Stun
S.D. - Shield Drop
ADV - Advantage Frames
L.L. - Landing Lag

NOTE 1 - BLUE sections indicate places where the opposing player can use OUT OF SHIELD options.
NOTE 2 - EARLY HIT and LATE HIT refers to the frame ZSS hits during SHIELD LOCK frames.

PARALYZER - NO CHARGE​

Spoiler: Not Applicable, Needs Research

PARALYZER - FULL CHARGE​

Spoiler: Not Applicable, Needs Research

UP AIR

BACK AIR

• NOTE! This assumes the weak hit of back air. Hitting with the strong hit of back air yields 1 extra hitlag frame for both characters, and 1 extra shield stun frame. Overall, this yields ZSS one more advantage frame.

FORWARD AIR 1 & 2

• Forward air 2 yields hits for 2% more. Much like the difference in back air hitboxes, this yields 1 hitlag frame and 1 shield stun frame. Overall, yields ZSS one more advantage frame.

NEUTRAL AIR

NEUTRAL AIR - FRAME SYNC (Frame Cancel)

• The purpose of the frame sync analysis for neutral air is to explore the numerical advantage that's yielded to ZSS if the player manages to get this to work.
• As a reminder - "frame syncing" is the act of landing on the same frame as an aerial's hit. I believe it is currently unknown if this works on shields.
• As a naming note - I call this "frame syncing" instead of "frame canceling," since the former name more accurately describes the phenomenon.

Z AIR

• Interestingly enough, hitting the strong hit of Z air (6% instead of 3%) has the same effect that's been described a few times before: 1 extra hitlag frame, 1 extra shield stun frame which results in ZSS gaining 1 advantage frame.
• Z air landing lag correction by @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ in the comments section [REF 11]

DOWN SMASH

• Important Note! Down smash is treated as a projectile. Due to this property, ZSS does not incur attacker hitlag. Credit to @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ for bringing this information to the thread [REF 12]
• Down Smash works the same as all the others. Hit with the strong hit (8% instead of 6%), adds one frame of hitlag and one frame of shield stun. Due to the move's projectile property, ZSS gains 2 frames of advantage if she hits with the strong hit of down smash.

DISCUSSION​

Paralyzer
The frame data for the paralyzer was interpreted via the sixriver frame data. However, that interpretation may not be correct, as very little information is provided there. The data at the @KuroganeHammer site shows first actionable frames for ZSS' paralyzer special [REF 9], but does not indicate the time duration of the paralyzer bullet.

If I can find that data, or get that data from someone who measures it, I'll update this section appropriately.

Spoiler: Prior Analysis, Update Pending

BOTH paralyzer analyses were done assuming that the paralyzer hits at maximum range. If the projectile hits closer, more advantage frames are awarded to the opponent. It seems that any version of a no-charge paralyzer gives an advantage frame or more to your opponent when hit on shield. A single frame does not necessarily mean that they can punish you, but it's good to keep in mind if a no-charge paralyzer shot is made at close range.

Fully charged paralyzer, at range, regardless of where it hits during shield lock provides at least 10 frames of advantage for ZSS. When shield drop frames are accounted for, this could mean good things for us. We have a fast dash speed, and a long grab (though the grab comes out in 16 frames, so maybe not). If that opponent chooses to shield drop... the advantage we gain is anywhere from 17 to 26 frames. This makes grabs possible in the worst case scenario. Mix in some human reaction time to your actions, provided you are not predictable about this, and this could be free grab territory!

The viability of a running follow up is also dependent on how much distance ZSS can cover over those frames. I do not possess that data right now, so I cannot assess her ability to follow up on a 17 frame gap at max paralyzer distance. As an additional note: reverse B and wave bounced paralyzer change the distance ZSS is at when she gains control. This can also effect the viability of her follow ups, especially when used on tall characters (shoot for their head, keep moving forward as you are in end lag).

Up Air
For all aerials, this assumes that the hitbox strikes the opponent, and you land the frame after. Given that, it does not matter which hitbox frame (6-12) is chosen. It would seem that versus an opponent with poor out of shield options (~6 frames), ZSS should be able to get a jab in or escape.


Back Air
This allows for 7 frame out of shield options... however, a well-spaced back air may prevent these options. As a note - for characters that cannot standing shield grab ZSS at max back air spacing, they CANNOT shield drop into a dash grab. It is not possible as a follow up.


Foward Air 1 & 2
It seems unsafe on shield. It's spacing isn't as good as other aerials, and it may be prone to grabs. If you hit early in the shield lock frames and the opponent chooses not to grab out of shield, you may be OK, but that's not exactly dependable.

Neutral Air
Similar to back air, opponents CANNOT respond with shield drop into a dash grab if this move is spaced correctly. Waiting through shield lock frames and shield drop frames in order to punish will either give ZSS a few advantage frames, or give the defender too few frames to respond with a grab.

As an interesting thought experiment, the frame advantage for a frame synced neutral air was tabulated. NOTE - ITIn the most extreme circumstances, where the opponent chooses to drop their shield after waiting through shield lock, ZSS can grab in response. It should be strongly noted that this will not happen often.

ALSO! After reviewing the original thread regarding this technique [REF 10], it has come to my attention that the community still does not know if this works on shields. I will work toward answering this mystery when I have the time.


Z Air
This is not as safe as it was first imagined. With our landing lag at 8 frames, not 2 frames, frame advantage only appears when the opponent shields early in their shield lock frames AND chooses to drop their shield. Even then, ZSS will need to hit Z air uncomfortably close to a shielding opponent to make this work. Should that all occur, dash attack is guaranteed. Just note that it's not very likely, and should just be considered a read.

At best, it may be useful to observe how your foe tries to punish Z air on shield. If they do not know enough about ZSS, and you stay out of shield grab range, they may try shield drop-based options. Use this to your advantage if you see it.


Down Smash
The analysis on down smash has been adjusted to accurately reflect its properties. Down smash is considered a projectile, and does not subject ZSS to attacker hitlag when it strikes an opponent. This improves its advantage on shield to a reasonable extent.

When down smashing someone's shield, the most prominent and threatening response is a grab. Down smash is wide enough to avoid all applicable shield grabs. If your foe attempts to shield drop for a dash grab, ZSS can always escape. This likely makes ZSS' down smash one of the safest smashes in the game. (Note - mobile out of shield options may be her only weakness in this regard, since jumping cancels shield lock and/or shield drop frames. Watch for things like Mii Brawler's custom up B, anything from Jigglypuff, Wario, or anyone with good air mobility.)

HOWEVER. Do not mistake this as a free license to continue hitting their shield without reason. Shield lock frames and shield drop frames can be avoided by jumping, which provides a good avenue of escape for the opponent. Watch their tendency, and punish accordingly.


Variation in Outcomes
It should be noted that the most consistent factor here is variability. There are 14 frames (7 for shield lock, 7 for shield drop) that can move around based on hit timing or opponent choice. For many moves, this is what dictates the safety of ZSS' follow up. Since the variability on shield lock frames is pseudo-random, and on a time scale that can't be responded to via human reaction time, that's not necessarily a dependable factor. Shield dropping, however, is a tendency that can be observed in your opponent, and whenever possible accounted for in your response.


Error
As always, there is human error involved. I have only made estimations regarding the end lag frames for paralyzer, and they not be entirely accurate. I have also had to learn a lot more about shields than I have ever known before, and that new knowledge has been checked over the course of a week... but it still leaves room for errors to have been made. For this particular body of work, I encourage discussion and double-checking for anyone that feels they can.

Hopefully this shines some light on the use of shields in this game!

Onwards and upwards!

REFERENCES​

1. @ Dr. Tuen - Frame Count 1 - http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-count-flip-kick-frame-trap.403991/
2. @ Dr. Tuen et al - ZSS Frame Data - http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-frame-data-compilation-misc-page-update.401590/
3. @Shaya - Shields in Smash 4 - http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/
4. @Lavani - Mechanics and Techniques Discussion - http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-29#post-19238073
5. Sixriver - Shieldstun Calculator - http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm
6. @TheReflexWonder - Perfect Shields - http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-shielding-frame-data.381971/#post-18154480
7. @ David Viran - Shield Lock Frames (and subsequent comments) - http://smashboards.com/threads/the-zero-suit-samus-in-shorts-social.324218/page-35#post-19314295
8. @Big O - Mechanics and Techniques Discussion (and surrounding comments) - http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-30#post-19312998
9. @KuroganeHammer - ZSS Frame Data - http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zero Suit Samus
10. @Izaw - Frame Cancel - http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/
11. @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ - Z Air Landing Lag - http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-count-ii-zss-vs-shields.405176/#post-19465546
12. @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ - Down Smash as Projectile - http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-count-ii-zss-vs-shields.405176/#post-19584452

 

[Wyles]

I love you.

 

[pichuthedk]

I am going to have to reread this a couple of times to get more then just the basics but this was insightful Thanks a bunch :D.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Pls b in Dresden Tuen

 

[NickRiddle]

D-smash unsafe on shield?
Smash 4, why did you do this to my favorite move

 

[David Viran]

D-smash unsafe on shield?
Smash 4, why did you do this to my favorite move

At least there is a glimer of hope with the shield lock thing.

 

[DeLux]

Tuen, are you doing the math based off info/formulas/algorithms, and/or have you done any frame capture testing to confirm the results in realtime?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Tuen, are you doing the math based off info/formulas/algorithms, and/or have you done any frame capture testing to confirm the results in realtime?

I'm doing the math based off of the shield stun calculator provided by sixriver [REF 5], and based on our frame data [REF 2]. I have no methods for doing frame capture or accurate real time testing, since I am poor (see: I'm a graduate student). Most responses in the mechanics and techniques thread seem to validate the calculator that sixriver built.

 

[DeLux]

I'm doing the math based off of the shield stun calculator provided by sixriver [REF 5], and based on our frame data [REF 2]. I have no methods for doing frame capture or accurate real time testing, since I am poor (see: I'm a graduate student). Most responses in the mechanics and techniques thread seem to validate the calculator that sixriver built.

This is some interesting stuff assuming it matches up with how the game functions. I'm not too skeptical on it, since I'm going to just assume it's right and operate off it for the time being. Just wondering how people are confirming frame data on stuff like this

I mostly ask because people tend to be able to non-meaty shield grab Nairs before a buffered spot dodge. Frame data says it shouldn't be the case, but it happens all the time you know?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

This is some interesting stuff assuming it matches up with how the game functions. I'm not too skeptical on it, since I'm going to just assume it's right and operate off it for the time being. Just wondering how people are confirming frame data on stuff like this

I mostly ask because people tend to be able to non-meaty shield grab Nairs before a buffered spot dodge. Frame data says it shouldn't be the case, but it happens all the time you know?

You upped the jargon level a notch, heh. Am I understanding your hypothesis correctly in stating that your experiences lead to a belief in other's ability to shield grab nair?

Cause that's not entirely wrong. If you land within shield grab range of another player, it doesn't matter when the nair hits, they can shield grab you. Done deal. However, if you land outside their grab range and they still want a grab, they must wait until their shield drop frames are up. In both displayed scenarios, waiting for shield drop leaves the opponent with 5 or fewer advantage frames... and for most characters a grab takes 6 frames

This interaction, however, is frame perfect. This says that ZSS hit with a hitbox of nair, and landed the frame after. Any delay in those actions yields more advantage frames to your opponent. If we're, as a ZSS collective of players, tending to hit five frames before touching down, that's plenty of time for an opponent to dash and grab.

So the caveat is this - you cannot be shield grabbed out of a spaced nair if you are frame perfect. The more frames you yield by separating the hit of nair and your landing, the more frames you yield your opponent.

 

[DeLux]

Ahh I was misreading the data and didn't notice the S.D part.
What options are available to people during SL? If it's jump, spot dodge, roll, and grab, that has tremendous ramifications on the paralyzer frame advantage

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ahh I was misreading the data and didn't notice the S.D part.
What options are available to people during SL? If it's jump, spot dodge, roll, and grab, that has tremendous ramifications on the paralyzer frame advantage

No problem. Interpretation of the data is just as important as mining it. After a bit of searching, it seems you are right. Any regular shield command (grab, spot dodge, roll) along with jump and its associated moves (up smash, up B, any aerial), are permitted out of shield.

Yeah, the paralyzer bit is interesting. If someone just sits in their shield like "her derr, it's so obvious that you're going to use that," it actually helps us out. A late hit on shield lock frames gives us tremendous advantage, but not enough to guarantee a grab, since our grab sucks so much. Running options are hard to estimate the viability for, since I don't know how fast we move in terms of frames. So... yeah.

However! If a foe wants to let their shield drop to respond to you running at them, the grab is all but guaranteed. This brings an interesting twist: conditioning. Likely the best escape option is jumping, since rolling is really well covered by ZSS' grab. Roll forward? Pivot. Roll backwards? Run for like, a quarter second more, and grab anyways. So, one might jump. If they do that, we can go for our usual follow ups in the air... which are pretty brutal.

On that same note, I'm wondering if it'd be possible to do a string like...

[fully charged paralyzer] --> [grab threat] --> [foe jumps] --> [flip kick] --> [foe air dodges] --> [FRAME TRAP PROFIT]

Man, I wish I had an understanding of hitstun in this game. I know it's percentage based... and that's about it. If that could be appropriately calculated, I could find out so much stuff. I've even developed experiments for frame-based movement measurement, but it requires hitstun values. It is at times like this I wish I were better at coding type stuff. Oh well, I'll have fun mining data over here, heh.

 

[LordKKs]

First, great work; but you don`t have the rest of the data? Tilts, Fsmash,Upsmash, etc?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

First, great work; but you don`t have the rest of the data? Tilts, Fsmash,Upsmash, etc?

Tilts will be great, and I will get to those. Same with jab. Forward smash is definitely not safe on shield (33 frames of end lag), and isn't worth the time. Same with up smash (19 frames of end lag). If I had to make a hypothesis, I'll wager that ftilt will be the only one that's close to being safe on shield... but it's probably not.

I'm also not 100% sure if the frame data sixriver provided marks end frames by the end of the animation or by the first frame we can act. The difference between the move animation total time and the IASA (Interruptable As Soon As, I think) time could change the characteristics of ground-based moves.

So... I delay on those partially due to qualitatively obvious results (the smashes) and partially due to an incomplete understanding of end frame data (tilts/ground moves). In fact, it was iffy to complete down smash to begin with. If that end frame indicates animation time, and there's a sooner IASA frame somewhere, down smash might actually be safe on shield ... if it's struck on the early shield lock frames... and your opponent chooses to shield drop in response. ... shields are rough, man.

 

[David Viran]

Hmm you should take a look at dsmash again. In training mode after sheild lock frames are used up zss can PS a frame 5 jab after sheild drop. If that is true they should not be able to dash grab to punish it.

Also are you taking into account sheild push back when determining safety? There are no frame 7 or lower grabs that should reach a decently spaced bair.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Hmm you should take a look at dsmash again. In training mode after sheild lock frames are used up zss can PS a frame 5 jab after sheild drop. If that is true they should not be able to dash grab to punish it.

Also are you taking into account sheild push back when determining safety? There are no frame 7 or lower grabs that should reach a decently spaced bair.

Your results may indicate an IASA frame that's 6 frames earlier than the end frames posted by sixriver. If this is the truth, then if we're trying to use frame data to assess safety, we may just be missing the data we need to complete an analysis on ground moves altogether.

I'll see what I can find in the next coming week.

Oh, also! No shield push is accounted for. It's a choice regarding making this a middle-of-the-road estimate of safety. The liberal side says that we can do these actions in frame-perfect manners (gives ZSS an artificial advantage), and the conservative side says that there is no shield push (gives ZSS an artificial disadvantage). I believe these to be reasonable assumptions because of two reasons: 1. We do not possess a reasonable way to characterize shield push or dash time (in frames) and 2. we also cannot characterize the average number of frames away from perfect an individual's execution is.

 

[David Viran]

We should look more into uair. If they have to sheild drop we could get frame advantage with out the sheild lock frames.

 

[Dakpo]

So I have a question about punishing stuff out of shields. When calculating if we can punish certain options (like sheik's Fair), we have to consider a lot. Double check me to make sure im figuring this stuff out correctly

1. How much damage this move does to our shield so we can then calculate shield stun.
2. Whether or not we are in shield lock (im not sure if shield stun and shield lock over lap each other, but I assume they do)
3. how fast our out of shield option comes out
4 How much landing lag the opponent has

 

[Dr. Tuen]

So I have a question about punishing stuff out of shields. When calculating if we can punish certain options (like sheik's Fair), we have to consider a lot. Double check me to make sure im figuring this stuff out correctly

1. How much damage this move does to our shield so we can then calculate shield stun.
2. Whether or not we are in shield lock (im not sure if shield stun and shield lock over lap each other, but I assume they do)
3. how fast our out of shield option comes out
4 How much landing lag the opponent has

Right. To clarify: shield stun and shield lock do not overlap. At some point I'd like to find a way to double check all IASA frames, since there is some question as to the accuracy of dsmash, but I'd like to try and find it in the game files since I can't do 60 fps recording. If that data surfaces for double-checking, some of the safety assessments may change.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Right. To clarify: shield stun and shield lock do not overlap. At some point I'd like to find a way to double check all IASA frames, since there is some question as to the accuracy of dsmash, but I'd like to try and find it in the game files since I can't do 60 fps recording. If that data surfaces for double-checking, some of the safety assessments may change.

I have a capture card that does 60fps and checked Down Smash's FAF, it's 42

edit: PS: You listed zair as 2 frames of landing lag? Am I reading that right? zair has 8 frames of landing lag.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I have a capture card that does 60fps and checked Down Smash's FAF, it's 42

edit: PS: You listed zair as 2 frames of landing lag? Am I reading that right? zair has 8 frames of landing lag.

Did you check the landing lag of zair using a capture card? Right now, sixriver has the only game-pulled data for zair and his doesn't provide landing lag numbers for zair. To which I had assumed... zero? This would leave regular landing lag, which is 2 frames for a slow fall and 4 frames for a fast fall. Since zair cannot be fastfalled, I went with two.

If you have data that says otherwise, it'd be nice to see it... since it seems to be nowhere else.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If you have data that says otherwise, it'd be nice to see it... since it seems to be nowhere else.

What do you mean by see it exactly? I checked with a capture card. I get that all I'm giving is my word, I just don't know what kind of proof you want. (a short video on Youtube?)

 

[Dr. Tuen]

What do you mean by see it exactly? I checked with a capture card. I get that all I'm giving is my word, I just don't know what kind of proof you want. (a short video on Youtube?)

Yeah, a short video or gif would be cool. I'll change it either way, but that change will probably come about early next week

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Here's a gif

 

[Viev]

I created an account on this website to say that you are doing God's work. Thank you. @ Dr. Tuen

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

@ Dr. Tuen I tested a bit and there are some errors I wanted to share. First of all, hitlag seems to start the same frame a move connects (not the frame after). Secondly Down Smash is a projectile, ZSS doesn't suffer hitlag from it at all. It's actually -11 on shields and -4 on shield drop.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ Dr. Tuen I tested a bit and there are some errors I wanted to share. First of all, hitlag seems to start the same frame a move connects (not the frame after). Secondly Down Smash is a projectile, ZSS doesn't suffer hitlag from it at all. It's actually -11 on shields and -4 on shield drop.

Wait, does that mean Ness can absorb our dSmash?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Well ya. Haven't you seen that team in brawl?

The real question is: Can Villager pocket our Down Smash?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Well ya. Haven't you seen that team in brawl?

The real question is: Can Villager pocket our Down Smash?

Oh yeah right, now that you say it, I remember that.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

@ Dr. Tuen I tested a bit and there are some errors I wanted to share. First of all, hitlag seems to start the same frame a move connects (not the frame after). Secondly Down Smash is a projectile, ZSS doesn't suffer hitlag from it at all. It's actually -11 on shields and -4 on shield drop.

Woah, that's awesome! I didn't know that hitlag starts on the frame you hit. I'll make those boxes... purple... or something... ha ha. Thanks for the help on this! I guess this'll be the first thread of its kind that references itself! I'll get some corrected visuals up soon!

Oh, edit! I didn't mention the whole dsmash projectile... thing. That's freaking radical! That's a really big advantage for ZSS.

I also wonder about how hitstun is calculated for dsmash. The data dumps available say that it has the "stun" property, but I don't know how much that increases hitstun for a dsmash that hits. Either way, @XAV has a video that show dsmash combos into everything, heh.

 

[David Viran]

Just tested zair's landing lag. I got that it was 6-7 frames of landing lag by going into training mode with two zss's with the stop mode. Had them both jump at the same time and land at the same time with one landing normally and the other with zair. I then had the zss that landed normally use a move just as she landed and have the other try to sheild it. I was able to sheild ftilt (frame 6) but not up b (frame 4).

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Normal landing is 2 frames.

 

[David Viran]

Normal landing is 2 frames.

I know so I added 2 to either being able to sheild at frame 5 or if frame 6 is the first frame zss can sheild. Sheild takes 1 frame.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Realized my post was wrong whoops lol. Shield would come out on frame 9 and Ftilt on frame 8. I tried the same experiment you did and I didn't shield Ftilt. Are you sure you didn't do Ftilt a frame later by mistake?

 

[David Viran]

Prolly did but I can't test it right now unfortunately.

 

[pichuthedk]

@ Dr. Tuen

Yeah, the paralyzer bit is interesting. If someone just sits in their shield like "her derr, it's so obvious that you're going to use that," it actually helps us out. A late hit on shield lock frames gives us tremendous advantage, but not enough to guarantee a grab, since our grab sucks so much. Running options are hard to estimate the viability for, since I don't know how fast we move in terms of frames. So... yeah.


So regarding what you said here about the grab not being possible I know you said you don't know if how fast she moves in order to even attempt the grab, however I was curious if this might actually be possible with a roll canceled grab instead of the normal dash grab?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

So... somewhere down the road neutral air's hitstun multiplier got changed from 1.5 to 1.0. Granted, if it stayed 1.5 it would have been subject to a universal change to hitstun multipliers... but regardless, this makes her neutral air 5 frames safer on shield.

I'm writing as an update to you all and as a note to myself: I need to update this for Zair, Dsmash, and now Neutral Air.

 

[pichuthedk]

So... somewhere down the road neutral air's hitstun multiplier got changed from 1.5 to 1.0. Granted, if it stayed 1.5 it would have been subject to a universal change to hitstun multipliers... but regardless, this makes her neutral air 5 frames safer on shield.

I'm writing as an update to you all and as a note to myself: I need to update this for Zair, Dsmash, and now Neutral Air.

Now if only I can stop being a moron and believing I am going to get one of those ff nairs into flip kick.....
I'll actually start spacing it and just flip jump away upon landing.

 

[Megamang]

Does the full hitbox of nair come out on the first frame of any hitbox? It seems to me that there is a bigger hit a little later, but I'm not sure.

Im trying to utilize the maximum spacing, if anyone has a video or gif of what a "perfectly" spaced nair looks like, I would love it.


As of right now, I just assume whatever nairo does is correct =B

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Does the full hitbox of nair come out on the first frame of any hitbox? It seems to me that there is a bigger hit a little later, but I'm not sure.

Im trying to utilize the maximum spacing, if anyone has a video or gif of what a "perfectly" spaced nair looks like, I would love it.


As of right now, I just assume whatever nairo does is correct =B

If the full hitbox isn't out on the first frame (frame 10), then it's definitely out by the second frame (frame 11). If you are, for some reason, spacing the back of neutral air, you're looking at frames 15 and 16. If you want a look at how far it spaces, check out the spacing visualization thread.... which will hopefully appear in my signature, provided I've made that edit correctly. OK, maybe not. I don't know a lot about signatures right now, heh. Anyways, the link is below. There are pictures of the max spacing for moves.

ZSS Spacing Visualization