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Feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by cannedbread, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. cannedbread

    cannedbread Smash Lord

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    hi there. post feedback about project m here.

    try not to be whiny please and try to be as objective as possible. no nitpicking and other similar complaints. and whatever else you people should know how to be civil.

    no "why is x like y when it should be like z"
    no "i can't beat x x 4good please nerf"
    etc.

    please consider what the pmbr have to work with and their priorities in creating this game.

    try to explain your ideas in a polite and organized fashion

  2. Translucent

    Translucent Smash Journeyman

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    Freaking fantastic game.

    I think that the more different colors for characters come out, the better and awesome it will be. I also think that there needs to be some more publicity for project m 2.5 for the people who got 2.0 and then stopped playing for a while.

    :phone:
  3. noirscythe

    noirscythe Smash Journeyman

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    Asking to post feedback as a whole. Seems to narrow down all possible feedback to a variant of "good".
  4. Pseudomaniac

    Pseudomaniac Smash Journeyman

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    Speaking from the perspective of a "casual" player (as casual as you can be for someone who actually goes to Smashboards), it blows both Melee and Brawl out of the water. It's honestly probably the most balanced game I've ever played without being at all monotonous. The characters all feel more distinct than ever, and it's nice having all of the cast actually viable.

    The only suggestion I have is maybe making tutorials on the website for advanced techniques that aren't really explained in-game (wavedashing, jump cancelling, dash dancing, etc.) The tutorials should not only explain how to pull off the technique, but how to use it practically as well. For instance, I know how to wavedash, but I can't really apply it in battle.

    I feel that Project M could probably expand far beyond just the core competitive fanbase, as even casual gamers are becoming more aware of and more open to modding. It combines the massive amount of content contained in Brawl with the fast paced and more responsive combat in Melee with a great overall balance that's unique to Project M, which I think could be very appealing to casuals.
  5. cannedbread

    cannedbread Smash Lord

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    fair enough
  6. noirscythe

    noirscythe Smash Journeyman

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    I don't know if this is what you want in this thread, but I think training mode should be buffed.

    There should be an option for the CPU to DI / smash DI in the following directions or more: up/down/right/left/away/towards. There could also be a record feature like in SSFIVAE and a reset option if possible.

    It would help players that don't have a training buddy to play. I would be so happy.
  7. thespymachine

    thespymachine Smash Ace

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    First of all, I'm loving Project M! And it has inspired me to get more people into Smash.
    Thanks for all the efforts!

    Second, it's awesome PM has its own place on Smashboards now!

    Third, a few little ideas for consideration:

    1) Seeing what stages are the random stages when on the stage-select screen
    I think it would be great to see the whole of 'strikeable' stages while stage-striking; removing the chances of brain-farting and forgetting what stages are left - and mirroring the experience of striking in Melee, on the random stage screen, where you can see what is set to random and strike it. (I may be confusing, sorry, I can elaborate if needed)

    Edit 1: Elaborating on what I'm meaning in #1
    What I think would be very helpful to the flow of stage-selection at the beginning of a set and the tournament, would be to visually show on the stage-select screen whats stages are the 'random' stages.
    A little "R" in the corner of the stage's icon would be an example. It would show that the stage is one of the stages that was selected as a stage to be chosen from when you choose 'random' on the stage-select screen.


    2) How to Play video
    As Pseudomaniac was saying, a video or series of videos could help players learn what/how to do things. But I'd like to take it a little further: what if a "How to Play" video was made to breeze through most ATs, that gets shown in an idle menu (like the current How to Play). And there could be a set of more in depth videos (along with the new HtP) in the menu, allowing players to understand more in depth.
    As I'm saying this, though, I understand that this may be impossible, due to memory needed, so Pseudomaniac has it covered. lol

    3) Stage Suggestions
    I. Frigate Orpheon - Second Form: I'm sure this has already been talked about, or even being worked on, but I think the second form of Frigate Orpheon would be a great addition - by itself - as a competitive stage.
    II. Pictochat w/o hazards (or just a smaller version of FD): FD is great, and stages with platforms are awesome, but I think we're limiting ourselves - or should I said, limiting the expression of the characters - by having only one flat, no-platform stage. I think including another one, that is smaller in size, could help create a more dynamic competitive environment.

    4) Costume Suggestions (these are pretty nitpicky, but yeah...)
    I. ZSS: a - Her hair color stays the same with every costume, perhaps changes in shade/color (like how Jiggz' 'skin' shade changes with each costume)?; b - She has two Blue costumes, and as what was done with Marth's two bluish costumes, something else could be done; c - A costume that had the same color and/or design as Samus' Varia suit would be cool.
    II. Snake: His new blue costume, could it be changed into blue-digital?

    Sorry if I seemed nitpicky, but I wanted to get ideas thrown out there to help out.
  8. standardtoaster

    standardtoaster Sakura Bison

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    You can press Y to get rid of all stages on the first page and be left with ones only on random.
  9. LydianAlchemist

    LydianAlchemist Smash Apprentice

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    I love it.

    one thing I noticed is when you are crouching and holding a turnip as peach, when you cstick down you throw the turnip instead of dsmash while holding it. but its no big deal.

    Can't wait to get some sparring partners and really sink my teeth into 2.5. more feedback to come as i/we become better acquainted with it.
  10. Dubforce

    Dubforce Smash Sidius

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    I would really like two things on the CSS to be added.

    1: The option to cycle through names without manually going to them. Maybe holding Z and using the control-stick?

    2: Would it be possible to add a custom skin feature that stores as many custom skins as you want all in one place, rather than replacing one of the skins that is already there. For instance, if you have 2 custom skins for a character then you should be able to just choose "custom" and then pick out of your custom skins. Just an idea. I hope it possible.
  11. Comeback Kid

    Comeback Kid Smash Lord

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    I'll repost feedback when I can give more concrete examples because vague thoughts aren't very helpful.
  12. The_NZA

    The_NZA Smash Lord

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    Hey BR!

    Loving the game. I main Ness and I have found a lot of his new options to be invigorating! But, as a melee Ness, I notice one specific type of playstyle feels very hard to emulate.

    In Melee, I often felt it was a game of perfect spacing with Ness. throwing out fairs and dash attacks, catching people until you could put them in a position to grab or juggle with DJC uairs. Killing with back throws or Bairs, and edgeguarding with Nairs. But the FAIR was the focus. Observe Ness v. cfalcon and notice how fair is nearly every approach.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqze0rnfQs

    So far in Project M, I've had a real difficult time replicating that kind of delicate up close outspacing game. In fact, Ness has always been criticized for a lack of range, but in Melee I only felt that way against Marth. I could always DJC into the angles where I couldn't be hit and I could hit the opponent. In Project M, I feel like I have to struggle to get in close enough to do damage (especially against enemies like Lucario). Instead, i'm resorting to just getting close and doing DJC and short hopped dairs, more similar to 64 style of play.

    I messed around in Training mode and I am convinced fair is worse in this game. Each and every time I DJC it, no matter how much i delay the second jump I usually only get 2 hits of it off instead of the full 5 OR I get the full 5 and I'm slow. In Ness videos, i'm noticing people are barely using the fair. I think Ness has become a way better character, but promoting multiple styles of play is a very good thing and it is wonderful the number of options you've given Ness. I still wish this fair-heavy spacing style could join the others as an effective option.

    Thanks!
  13. a vehicle

    a vehicle Smash Apprentice

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    P:M is the logical step up from melee the same way melee was from SSB64
    I've play'd melee non-stop since it's release, when Brawl was announced I was very excited about it, but once i got my hands on it, wow what a disappointment it was.

    From my point of view vBrawl is nothing but a unfair random game where unbalance reigns and every aspect of tech skill is simplified or removed up to the point that competitive play is almost redundant. vBrawl is nothing but a casual "fun" game.

    P:M takes all of vBrawl's good features and merges them with melee, which turns it into what i consider to be the ideal smash bros game: melee high-tier balance is now global, keeps all of melee's techniques and adds a few to it, the game is completely fair and skill-based, new characters.

    Even though I'm still having a hard time getting used to P:M's meta and gameplay it's very unlikely that me or any of my friends go back to melee after this.

    I'm not saying that P:M is perfect, there are some aspects of it's gameplay that are forcing me to completely change the way I play:

    -Edge guarding is way harder now: seems like characters snap to ledges from farther away than they did in melee, this adds great advantage to whoever is trying to go back to the stage at any time because you get invincibility frames way sooner and hoping into the stage is easier because it's very hard to hit an opponent thats hanging from a ledge, unlike melee.

    -Chasing an enemy off-stage is way too risky: As a melee player that mains falco, falcon, peach and jiggs I would 10 out of 10 times chase you off-stage to prevent you from coming back by landing a spike, meteor or abusing "wall of pain" guaranteeing a stock if it hit. In P:M I find leaving the stage absolutely reckless: if you get hit by the enemy's recovery there's a very high chance that you will not be able to go back and on top of that it seems like every single recovery has very high priority over everything else (like melee Doc's), this forces most characters to wait for the opponent to get closer (this favours non-aggressive play-style)

    -Every special attack got way buffed: This isn't really a bad thing, but changes everything. In melee most special attacks were extremely situational, some of them were never used and some of them were only used to recover. The developer's of P:M have managed to buff special attacks enough to enable a wider range of possibilities to openings, combos and general gameplay.... did i say this wasn't bad? let me rephrase that to "this is rather good".

    -New character design: In melee there were only two characters that were harder to master than any other because of their high tech-play: the spacees. P:M developers knew that it was because of this that they were also considered top characters so they had to mod the other characters into having their unique tech-play: Ike with his side-b jump cancel, lucario's combo and chakra play and lucas's shine are a few examples of what I mean. Which makes the game more fun and skill-based. Thank you for that
    Sixth-Sense likes this.
  14. Nintendude

    Nintendude Smash Master

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    Not sure if this is the kind of feedback you're looking for, but there's something wonky with throws. In Melee if Marth grabs Peach, you can just hold down to DI both his f-throw and d-throw, but in PM this results in me getting chaingrabbed. JCaesar says it's something about what parts of a character are grabbable, but I think it might be something else since the throw trajectory actually seems different. It's minor but it'd be cool if this was fixed.
  15. hamyojo

    hamyojo Smash Journeyman

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    I feel like when enemies trip you should be able to jab reset them.
  16. sub7se7en

    sub7se7en Smash Rookie

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    This part.
  17. ELI-mination

    ELI-mination Smash Champion

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    The game should be less like melee and more like something good.
  18. Jandles

    Jandles Smash Apprentice

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    The only thing I wish for right now is that the Backroomers had more free-time to work on the wonderful mod going on here. All things in good time, though.

    There's some things that I'd suggest, but the majority of them aren't particularly feasible in the current time period, and others that might not even be possible. I'm keeping an ear out for any news on the clone-engine as well, but that's something that can wait till after the mod's in a more finished state (and even then...).
  19. Sixth-Sense

    Sixth-Sense Smash Ace

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    **** **** **** **** **** **** goddamn i made a ****ing page long post about EVERYTHING damnit **** ****
    :confused::facepalm::urg::glare::nervous::sadeyes::laugh::estatic::dazwa::hulk: :mad::mad::mad: **** ****FCUFKCFN SKNJUSKFJNKJFBSIJBHFKJBSBHFSYUCVKHBSKUAHBKLNJL

    the jist of it was i dislike all of these amazing recoveries, PM feels rough as hell compared to melee

    the good part was i love all of the good competitve worlds, i love the design choices, the new mechanics, and PM's potental which i ended by saying PM will be the God of Smash in the end, just keep on doing what you wizards are doing, and make sure to have some surprises!:smirk:
  20. Kink-Link5

    Kink-Link5 Smash Hero

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    My only complaint related to gameplay/physics is ledge occupancy artificially buffing several recoveries and making others significantly harder to edgehog.

    Otherwise It's a pry good game.
    a vehicle likes this.
  21. The_NZA

    The_NZA Smash Lord

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    I once heard of this idea to make the two pilars in Snake's stage to have the different properties for training purposes. Basically, making it so the left pillar has the same hit stun as hitting an opponent and the right one has the hit stun of hitting a shield, so that people can practice l cancelling.
    Burnsy likes this.
  22. Tero.

    Tero. Smash Champion

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    My only concerns are about the stages: there are so many usefull stage mods (like summit pm) yet you didnt change much on the seccond page

    Also why is there still wind on DL, shyguys on ys, the Earth Transformation on PS, the Fire Transformation (just move the tree to the Background like you did with the Windmill)
  23. Burnsy

    Burnsy Smash Lord

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    If this is possible, that'd be awesome. It would also be helpful for practicing multishining.
  24. SpiderMad

    SpiderMad Smash Master

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    I'm pretty sure hitting an opponent's hurtbox and hitting their shield has the same amount of hitlag.

    Best example of each to remember the difference is hitlag is CF Knee'ing someone in Brawl and the game freezes before anything happens (You SDI during hitlag), Hitstun is Falco not being able to do anything while you chain grab him/juggle him with moves.

    Anyways, the best practice for that stuff would be if they just had the damage ratio go below 0.5 or something so a Bowser set on 0.1 wouldn't move at all (I'm not sure if the damage ratio would alter the hitlag but I don't think it's said to since so many people recommend it).
  25. traffic.

    traffic. Smash Journeyman

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    I'll try and split up my feedback into two groups, one being the human side of things, and the other being the computer side of things.

    Not-game-related-stuff
    You have the wonderful benefit of having a dedicated army of nerds who want to contribute and help as much as they can. What I propose is to task someone with the job of delegating "content" that is deemed important. Things like Frame Data Threads, AT tutorial videos, or generally anything that is considered low on the PMBR priority list. These are easily accomplished by the legion, and if there was a to-do list for the community, I think everyone would jump on the opportunity to chip in. While many people might not know how to collect frame data, it only takes a few with nothing else on their plate to start dumping that information.

    Decide what you don't want to do, but still think are good ideas, and let us help :)

    As someone who idles in the IRC room, I would also recommend making your download page absolutely retard proof. Like, add pictures. Big pictures. The amount of noobins who hear about this game brings a smile to my face, but when faced with how few of them seem to be able to download and run a file, it seems like there may be an audience we need to cater to.

    Not everyone involved in the project needs to be in the operating room, having a few more people dedicated to marketing and managing could really make your lives easier and facilitate production.

    Otherwise, I think you guys do a fantastic job managing the project. I dont know how much releases are based off of separate members finishing and sending in their content, but you guys are doing a great job of completing content. Considering the amount of bugs that are usually found in the beta process, you guys are quite thorough. The aesthetic changes and functions (stagestriker, crew mode, etc) are awesome, and it's great you guys are starting to figure out the guts to be able to change these things. I would suggest polishing them up a little bit, making them a little easier to navigate, but I'm sure that is already in the works. Very awesome game and I do everything I can to endorse it to all the smashers I meet. :)

    the-technical-game-stuff

    You guys are providing us with new and exciting content for a game that was otherwise stagnant in regards to metagame. Melee had reached a point in evolution where execution outweighed new and creative play to separate players. While not inherently the worst thing, it makes the game progressively harder to approach as time continues and new players simply cannot compete by using new methods. PM fixes this by providing new playstyles and changing the game in order to shake up the sediment settled at the bottom of lake Melee. Bowser, for example, is now different, instead of worse. Creating new mechanics and changing the formality of the game is what Melee desperately needed, despite many diehards who simply fear or reject change. Don't worry about the people who have played Fox only FD only for 10 years and don't want to play PM, they probably eat the same cereal everyday. New generation of play is always the stronger choice.

    Most consistent patches: I understand why it is not practical to put out more and more updates, and that having too many versions would make it harder for the community to stay on the same page. Not an actual complaint, I agree with the reasons for it, but i just wish it was an option for you, because I know how much of a boon it is for balancing a game to be able to make constant tweaks. Sympathetic D:

    I actually have no complaints about the way the game is put together, I am quite happy to explore and play the game you have made, and have no intentions of complaining about a game that doesn't exist. I just have to put on my big boy pants when something doesn't go my way, and try something else. It's called getting better, and I love the challenge you've provided with a game that boasts a high skill ceiling, and my learning curve has been steady and rewarding. I have not plateaued, and my play noticeably suffers when I am not constantly focused. There are many dense concepts in smash that are required to play at a high level, and weaving it all together has been intense mental exercise. I am impressed by the content you have published, I can't imagine it is any short order to put this game together with the tools and time available.

    Commendations and kudos to Dantarian and the developers, and here's to all the hype we can generate!
  26. Terrato

    Terrato Smash Rookie

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    Hi there, I love what you're doing, taking all the crap out of Brawl and making it more like Melee and even better?... genius, just freakin' genius... thank you SO much, I hate Brawl and now I don't hate myself for keeping it with my other games and not selling it after years of not using it at all. Finally a reason to own a copy of Smash Bros. Brawl.

    And now a little suggestion: I'm sorry if this feature is already in the game, my head hurts a lot and I really didn't read the whole feature list so here it is: My favorite item to have fun on a match are pokéballs, just a crazy shower of pokéballs all over the place, but I've always thought it would be so much more fun to be able to select which pokémon could come out of them, much like the item selection screen, just a pokémon selection screen, to either keep them all or "just legendaries" or "no goldeen" or stuff like that. I seem to remember there was an event mach on the back of a Suicune where there would be only legendary pokémon coming out of pokéballs, that was a lot of fun. Would it be too hard to include a feature like that on the final mod?

    Also, now that I'm giving feedback, I know this may be a stretch, but since you're already adding awesome stuff like a Castlevania arena, how probable would it be for us to expect something awesomely crazy like the inclusion of Megaman as a playable character? I know you may be thinking "dude... that's insane", I know there is a lot of modeling and animating and texturing and sound designing behind that one, but I'm just asking if by any chance have you contemplated it :p, maybe just as a "palette swap" for Samus with some new animations... well, maybe just new items would be easier... like the Castlevania Holy water or the Cross boomerang, or the rosary, to make every mine and bob-omb on the screen explode when you pick it... I dunno... just saying.

    Anyways, you're doing something great, PLEASE keep it up, you guys ROCK!
  27. Sarix

    Sarix Smash Ace

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    Other than that I find the game solid all around with the majority of the cast playable I only have one complaint. Why does Link's aerial bomb pull immediately put him into fast fall? I can understand having a technical recovery but I also find it very difficult and a bit ridiculous to be expected to practice being able to on reflex lightly press down on the control stick to avoid sinking like a lead anvil to my death while being edge-guarded but then switch to a normal press for dropping though platforms on stage. Aside from that great progress so far with the game.
  28. Bui

    Bui have no friends</br>am dead inside

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    This guy know what's happening
  29. TheReflexWonder

    TheReflexWonder Non sequitur

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    It doesn't--Your pressing Down while falling makes you fastfall, just like for every other character. The fact that you're pressing B to pull a bomb is irrelevant.

    You can avoid it by pulling a bomb while moving upward (via a jump or something similar) or just lightly go to Down when you're sent away, as you have plenty of time to yourself and have no pressure to pull a bomb as quickly as possible.
  30. Sarix

    Sarix Smash Ace

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    I see, well I feel a bit dumb now.
  31. Juushichi

    Juushichi DRB | にせもの

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    Nah, it's easy to feel that way Sarix.

    For whatever reason it's easier for me to accidentally FF when I pull a bomb with Link compared to Toon Link.
  32. TheReflexWonder

    TheReflexWonder Non sequitur

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    You can also hold Down or Down-Forward before you start moving downward, then press B whenever you're ready to pull a bomb.
  33. Sarix

    Sarix Smash Ace

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    Well I'm glad I'm not the only one Juu. :)

    Thanks for the tips Reflex.
  34. a vehicle

    a vehicle Smash Apprentice

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    Pretty much this. I would like be able to hit characters that are near the edge opposite to forcing myself to wait to avoid getting punished
  35. TheReflexWonder

    TheReflexWonder Non sequitur

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    Ledge occupancy is better than it was in Melee, at least.
  36. Kink-Link5

    Kink-Link5 Smash Hero

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    I'm inclined to disagree but there we have it.
  37. TheReflexWonder

    TheReflexWonder Non sequitur

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    Unless you think that the ledge should be taken up during the entire ledge roll animation and that people should be able to easy-mode edgehog all the time, with people not being able to grab a completely-empty ledge, it's an improvement. Melee's ledge occupancy certainly reduces the depth of ledge play.
  38. Kink-Link5

    Kink-Link5 Smash Hero

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    I'm just inclined to disagree that the difficulty of it happening is worth the artificial buff to long-lasting recoveries like, DK's for example. "It's too easy in Melee" isn't a genuine point to me. The difficulty of a gameplay aspect's execution should not be the basis for whether something's effect is proportionally too good or not. Making something harder to do doesn't make it less impacting, it just sets up a barrier to an aspect that was already an established part of the Melee metagame.

    Addendum: I don't think DK's recovery is too good, at least not compared to most of the other new recoveries in the game.
  39. TheReflexWonder

    TheReflexWonder Non sequitur

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    TheReflexWonder
    It's not as much about execution as it's about being sorely lacking in depth and interaction.
  40. Kink-Link5

    Kink-Link5 Smash Hero

    Joined:
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    Of course there is interaction involved. Interaction is what caused the recovering player to be offstage in the first place, and recovery should be a naturally disadvantageous position wherein a high recovery comes at risk of edgeguarding and low recovery comes at the heavy and likely risk of an edgehog. It's a dynamic of the game that is far removed form the same situation in Melee to give the edgeguarding player a harder time edgeguarding than the recovering player has in recovering.

    Again, there we have it; preference in what should be emphasized and categorized as depth. The way I see it it doesn't add any depth to just make edgehogging harder to do, but it does give buffs to the recoveries that last long or have several hits. If Ice Climbers were in the demo I'd feel the same way with their side B even though I like the characters, so this isn't something just to single out DK/Ike/whatever.

    To me, depth in any fighting game comes in the neutral game interaction between players/characters and not from the consequences thereof. Harkening back to Fox's U-throw Uair, it really isn't much to call something like "DI back then SDI forward or get ****ed" depth, nor is any other situation of "Do x if y" depth. When a player is in a disadvantageous position, it should be on that player to make the right decisions to get out of that position, not on the other player to keep them in it.

    Metatheory and game design talk yeahhh
    CyberZixx likes this.

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