Fair grab

[Yogi Backair]

Hey so I always see people talking about how the fair has enough shieldstun on it to give you a free grab after, but I've never seen it done. Can someone explain?

 

[BiscuitTricks]

Uhhhhh, you fair someone's shield. Then you dash grab. Simple.

You can time this in 20XX by having the infinite shield and CPU always shieldgrab toggles on, then just fair grab on shield.

You can mess it up, so make sure you have the proper timing down thru that method or a training partner before using it in tournament and expecting it to work.

It doesn't really look any different. You can also nair grab if you're floating just above the ground and bair turnaround grab.

Don't learn this and spam it tho. It can be beat by buffering a roll and probably spotdodge shine from the spacies. But they have to think you're going to grab. So sometimes use variance of FC fair to: jab - wavedash back/dash away/bair, double jab - dsmash (good for shieldpokes), jab - grab (if they expect a dsmash this'll throw em off), grab, FC nair -grab (this is good option coverage if you think they'll buffer roll after FC fair as FC nair is faster than dash grab and you can see what they do and react as you nair), etc.

 

[Yogi Backair]

So I'm assuming it's a float cancel on the fair then? And what they can roll out? I thought the point of it was to hold them in shield stun long enough that you could just dash grab them

 

[BiscuitTricks]

So I'm assuming it's a float cancel on the fair then? And what they can roll out? I thought the point of it was to hold them in shield stun long enough that you could just dash grab them

There aren't many things guaranteed in Smash, friend, if you know they're coming.

Of course you have to float cancel the fair. Otherwise there's too much landing lag to get much pf a follow up. But yes, FC fair on shield.

And no, the point of it is not always to get a grab. FC fair grab is good, but they can BUFFER a roll out if they know you're gonna do it. They have to do this with the cstick upon hit of the fair, so it's reaction to the fair plus read that you'll go for grab, or just fear maybe. I'm merely telling you it's /possible/ to beat it, so don't just spam fc fair grab like it's Peach's new messiah. But yes, 90% of the time you'll probably get it. Remember your other options off FC fair on shield and keep in mind what your opponent's last option in the same situation was.

 

[Genuine]

If done frame perfect, Fair on shield puts peach at a +4 frame advantage. The hitbox on peaches grab comes out on frame 6, so the opponent has 2 actionable frames. I believe most characters are invulnerable on frame 2 of the spot dodge. So a buffered spot dodge will always beat the grab depending on the character's spot dodge.

I literally just theory crafted this from available information. So if somebody wants to confirm my claim that'd be pretty cool. However, if you want to be practical, just assume Fair grab will work if done properly because most people don't know **** about peach.

I also think it would be really good to note that fair+grab is a really good mixup with fair+jab and fair+downsmash. If you mix up these 3 options pretty well your offensive pressure will probably see improvements.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I believe Peach's grab is 7 frames so if done perfectly its actually 3 actionable frames. As mentioned by Genuine, fair grab is great mixed with fair down smash.

- Down smash is usually your litmus test. It beats grab, sidestep, jump out of shield and shield pokes pretty regularly.
- Grab beats opponents who have been conditioned to expect the dsmash and hold shield. It also beats most characters jump out of shield and grab but will lose to roll and side step. It is also especially potent near the edge where your opponents have no room to roll back and are scared to roll behind you into a dsmash. Conveniently your fthrow should do a lot of work in this position.

Jab is an interesting one that needs a bit more frame data analysis. If done too soon, you are simply attacking someone who was stuck in shield anyway, throwing away your +4 frame advantage. Timed just right though it can beat a roll but the timing is so strict that most of the time when you fair jab and it actually connects it is usually because the opponent was doing an option such as jump or grab that would've been defeated by dsmash anyway. Even if your jab does connect, follow ups like jab dsmash or jab grab aren't guaranteed and double jab is meh.

Jab however is still a great option off of FC nair/bair as it isn't as easy to follow these moves up with grab/dsmash.

If you have picked up that your opponent keeps rolling out of fair shield pressure then fair into dash (dash attack/dash grab/running dsmash) appears to be the superior option over jab.

Oh and btw, if you intend to go for a fair grab, hold the shield button as you are doing the fair and then mash A when you land, it is far easier to execute fair grab this way for two reasons: Mashing A is easier than mashing Z and secondly, if you time your Z button press wrong you get Z shield which can be infuriating.

 

[BiscuitTricks]

Oh and btw, if you intend to go for a fair grab, hold the shield button as you are doing the fair and then mash A when you land, it is far easier to execute fair grab this way for two reasons: Mashing A is easier than mashing Z and secondly, if you time your Z button press wrong you get Z shield which can be infuriating.

I thought you were supposed to do a dash grab rather than a standing grab? It's what the 2015 Peach Guide doc says. But confirmation of either way wpuld be nice.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I thought you were supposed to do a dash grab rather than a standing grab? It's what the 2015 Peach Guide doc says. But confirmation of either way wpuld be nice.

It is absolutely a standing grab.
If you have spaced a fair so that a standing grab won't reach then a dash grab would be too slow to follow up unless your opponent has a habit of holding shield for too long.
If you can't grab them, they probably can't grab you (unless its Marth) so they are unlikely to try.

I feel like we are only scratching the surface of FC aerial pressure. But a quick arm chair analysis would be:

Close range Fair grab beats: Grab, Jump OoS and Hold Shield. Loses to: Roll and Side Step
Spaced Fair dash grab beats: Hold Shield. Loses to: Grab (you will run into their grab), Jump OoS, Roll and possibly Side Step depending on the timing.

 

[Sycorax]

Oh and btw, if you intend to go for a fair grab, hold the shield button as you are doing the fair and then mash A when you land, it is far easier to execute fair grab this way for two reasons: Mashing A is easier than mashing Z and secondly, if you time your Z button press wrong you get Z shield which can be infuriating.

Pardon my vigor, but this is bull****. Mashing in this situation is bad. You can just practice and time the grab which will get you way more consistent results.

 

[BiscuitTricks]

Pardon my vigor, but this is bull****. Mashing in this situation is bad. You can just practice and time the grab which will get you way more consistent results.

Yeah, when I read that, my immediate thought was that you're wasting your positive frame advantage on shield grabbing, especially with a mash, when you can just train muscle memory for the correct timing.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

To clarify what I mean by mashing, your first button press would be an attempt at frame perfect, and then 1-2 button presses as fast as possible afterwards to cover you if you inputted too soon.

The only down side to this is potentially getting a pummel out of your grab which could be broken out of at low percents.

The down side of only doing a single input is if you do it too soon you get nothing and become vulnerable. There is no reason not to at least do a double tap.

If your timing is perfect the shield doesn't come out with L/R+A. If you aren't perfect you only lose 1 frame.

 

[Thor]

Perfectly executed FC fair on shield -> standing grab beats most (all?) buffered rolls, because rolls are invincible frame 4 [there may be some exceptions I'm missing, but I doubt it... and if some characters move far enough in the first 3 frames to get out of grab range, they avoid it, but I don't think any rolls possess that property, especially with how close to someone you can be landing that fair]. It shouldn't beat buffered spotdodge, but on slow (bad) spotdodges, FC fair -> grab -> grab is guaranteed... as an example, we'll use Captain Falcon:

- You start a grab on frame 1, will land frame 7-8, ends 30
- His spotdodge is 3(?)-20, ends 32, so he buffers spotdodge to avoid grab
- Frame 7 for you is frame 3 for him [the fair is +4], so it whiffs.
- 24 frames later, you can grab again [new frame 1], and he is only on frame 27 of spotdodge, so he is still in lag. Add 6 frames for when grab will land, and Falcon is on frame 33, or frame 1 of a new spotdodge/any other action, meaning he gets grabbed.

His only way out of this trap is if you mess up or if his roll somehow moves him far enough away to avoid the grab while still vulnerable [I believe it does not].

 

[Kidney Thief]

If you're missing it try practicing the fast fall after hitting shield and try getting the edge of the shield at the bottom