Evo 2kXV Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

Ya know, we could revert all of the nerfs that Sheik has received if we nerf only her grab's startup time. Since strike / grab / block / idle is the rock-paper-scissors-lose of fighting games, it ain't cool that even when someone guesses right vs Sheik, their startup time on their everything still loses to Sheik's anything. Slow grab is what keeps ZSS's KO power and 0-frame jab in check. Reverting Sheik to have her middling KO power and needles back, where her KO power and jab isn't quite as good as ZSS's, but giving her a bad grab that's not quite as bad as ZSS's, would give Sheik some bad MUs to go with the good ones. Sheik would have trouble with shields at close range (but not far range, because unreactable needles), therefore giving some characters at least an option in the RPS triangle that doesn't lose no matter what.

Along the same lines, her needles are a peerless zoning tool attached to what is already a shining example of "fast, close range rushdown/speedster/mixups/whatever". They fit her ninja theme perfectly but it creates the same problem of "what doesn't she do well?"

 

[Ffamran]

Along the same lines, her needles are a peerless zoning tool attached to what is already a shining example of "fast, close range rushdown/speedster/mixups/whatever". They fit her ninja theme perfectly but it creates the same problem of "what doesn't she do well?"

Heheh, Sheik's a ninja like from Naruto. What does she do well? EVERYTHING. She lost to ZSS? Time to train and master some random OP move. Oh look! She has red eyes, definitely the Sharingan, right there.

Needles doing knockback is kind of weird when you consider that well, they're needles and not, y'know, bricks. The issue with no knockback is that she'd essentially have a worse Fox Blaster that when charged would mean she has to commit to a 7% move with no knockback and a lot of end lag. It's the fact that each needle causes knockback that makes the end lag for Sheik not an issue. The idea of giving her kunai or throwing knives, but only being able to throw 3 would be great, but that would mean the developers would have to create new assets and other game development stuff. Set knockback... Well, whatever, we always complain about how to "fix" Sheik.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wait, question, did Salem and Tyrant actually get DQ'd, or did they just lose?

Neither of them showed up so they got DQ'd.

 

[Hippieslayer]

IMO, all talk of "pure talent" is pointless, talent is real, but talent is just what we call the factors we can't manage to spot and point out.

Talent in Zero's case comes down to three main things which set him apart from the other top players, lifestyle and brains and a clear goal which takes precedence over everything else, namely winning.

His life is all smash as far as I understand, not only does he make a living playing smash, he's away from his family and homeland, so distractions are lessened, allowing him to focus solely on smash. He doesn't just have time to play the game, he has time to learn and think about it a great deal.

Yeah he's wrong about stuff in his youtube videos, but it's clear when you watch them that the dude's got a much better mindset than most all other top players. He is very aware that he's just one guy despite being the best, he's quick to question his own judgements and has no problems changing his opinions to account for new information. And TBPH compared to most other top players Zero says a lot less stupid stuff, while saying a lot more smart stuff, just overall showing that this is a guy who could go toe to toe with the great theorycrafters in a debate, if he put his mind too it.

There's none of that childish entitlement and pointless bitterness which is so common. Zero wants to win and he knows what type of mindset you need to do it. He doesn't mind picking the best characters because there's never shame in doing what it takes to win in a competitive game. He doesn't waste cognitive resources on being irritated at janky stuff or lame play styles to the same degree that many others do. Meanwhile Ally's a beast, but didn't use all the tools available to him out of some combination of stubbornness and laziness or something. Had he been up to date with all the recent patch did for Marth as well as been using lay counter and crescent slash Mr R might've not stood a chance, there were plenty of other examples of top players screwing themselves over like this. Abadango could've taken Zero had he been using rose fart, no doubt for one. Not saying he would've, but it would've been much much closer, guaranteed.

Now Zero didn't need to make these adjustments cause he's smart. The mains he has chosen complement each other perfectly, are both top tiers (if you think Diddy is not top you're wrong, sorry) and can both be played in diverse ways.

Basically he rocks a hell of a lot of different play styles and covers more or less all match ups with just two characters. Now I'm not just talking about EVO, he did only use Diddy once. But that Diddy was always there had he ever been in trouble with his Shiek.As it is now, Zero has mastered playing Shiek and Diddy both offensively and defensively, to defeat him you kinda need to defeat 4 characters in effect, beat one and out comes the other.

The human mind can only handle so much and Zero capitalizes on this perfectly. He uses only two characters, allowing him to be a master of both unlike people who use more than two (Abadango's Rosa while very strong was obviously not on par with his Pac and Wario for instance), and they can both be played efficiently offensively as well as defensively. What happened when Mr R was beating a somewhat defensive Diddy? Zero went offensive, easy for him but requiring instant adaption from his opponent. What has happened whenever he's been in trouble in the past? He's switched play style or character and gone on to win anyway. His opponents simply cannot figure all of his arsenal out in the course of a single set.

As far as I'm concerned that's what the raw talent really is.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Heheh, Sheik's a ninja like from Naruto. What does she do well? EVERYTHING. She lost to ZSS? Time to train and master some random OP move. Oh look! She has red eyes, definitely the Sharingan, right there.

Needles doing knockback is kind of weird when you consider that well, they're needles and not, y'know, bricks. The issue with no knockback is that she'd essentially have a worse Fox Blaster that when charged would mean she has to commit to a 7% move with no knockback and a lot of end lag. It's the fact that each needle causes knockback that makes the end lag for Sheik not an issue. The idea of giving her kunai or throwing knives, but only being able to throw 3 would be great, but that would mean the developers would have to create new assets and other game development stuff. Set knockback... Well, whatever, we always complain about how to "fix" Sheik.

Given how amazing her close range game is, I'd be completely fine with the idea of her not having anything really spectacular at range. That said I know Sheik players like their needles > Bouncing Fish setups, so IDK.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Along the same lines, her needles are a peerless zoning tool attached to what is already a shining example of "fast, close range rushdown/speedster/mixups/whatever". They fit her ninja theme perfectly but it creates the same problem of "what doesn't she do well?"

I'm of the opinion that ninjas aren't wrestlers. The problem with nerfing frame data on a few strikes like fair is that she has a lot of other hitbubbles with speedy data, so you'd end up having to slow down her entire moveset. But all throws are gated by one move, grab, so I'd target that instead. Needles aren't a problem for a lot of characters in the roster: Link, Tink, Duck Hunt, ...basically anyone with better zoning, because needles need charging time and only do a % or two un-fully charged.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm of the opinion that ninjas aren't wrestlers. The problem with nerfing frame data on a few strikes like fair is that she has a lot of other hitbubbles with speedy data, so you'd end up having to slow down her entire moveset. But all throws are gated by one move, grab, so I'd target that instead. Needles aren't a problem for a lot of characters in the roster: Link, Tink, Duck Hunt, ...basically anyone with better zoning, because needles need charging time and only do a % or two un-fully charged.

I don't care about needle damage, it's more that she can throw out a more-or-less unreactable projectile whenever the hell she wants. The hitstun will interrupt whatever you're doing, the damage is gravy.

 

[Shaya]

Possibly time to start transitioning to the other thread.
Or at least, keep the theory to there, and evo centric stuff maintaining itself here.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Honest opinion / thought dump:

Anyone expecting the first major customs-on tourney to radically alter the metagame has been setting themselves up for disappointment.

Unless there was some earth-shattering secret weapon hidden within these custom sets or a silent warrior waiting in the shadows to show us how it's done, EVO was never going to rock the metagame to its core. Top-tier characters are still top-tier because they have the toolkit and the wherewithal to deal with whatever comes their way; we know that no amount of custom shenanigans is going to suddenly made DK a hard counter to Sheik. That's just not realistic.

We've known in theory for a long time what customs can do: EVO is just testing whether our theories hold water or if we totally dropped the ball on it. We know more about customs and how they work in a major tourney than we did before EVO, which is good. We also know that customs, in addition to not being the game-breaking jankfest that had concerned folks beforehand, are not a magical panacea to suddenly make non-viable / semi-viable characters top-tier threats.

This is good. We've educated ourselves.

Yet it's still just a stepping stone. EVO was as much a testing ground for customs as it was an international tourney. We know now that some characters, in the right hands, can get further than they could in a customs-off environment. Villager especially reaped the rewards of this brave new world, though we saw some good stuff from other rarities as Bowser Jr, Mii Brawler, Palutena and DK. That's a good thing and a positive development towards a more robust, diverse meta.

It's not going to change things overnight, though. It's going to take time and effort from top players and a hell of a lot of community exposure to go places with the customs meta. The top-tiers were always going to dominate (with a few notable exceptions, which may or may not have been due to customs) because, well, they're top-tiers. A few new moves isn't going to suddenly rock the paradigm to its core. At best it just demonstrates that, yeah, things can be a tiny bit different, and there's room to improve.

That said, I think individual skill played as much a part as customs in creating a more dynamic roster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from Wario's Fast Bike, did Abadango even use customs for any of his characters? How about Ally's Mario (I won't cite Marth as that was really an anomaly) or Dabuz's Olimar? If they did use customs, they definitely weren't the focus of their playstyle. I even would go so far as to say that individual skill made more of a difference in the highest levels of play than customs did.

Regardless, this isn't a treatise in defence of customs. Takeaway of this is that I think it's heedlessly optimistic to think this was going to be the fall of Sheik and the rise of DK (to use an arbitrary yet relevant example). What it is, is a glimpse into a potential evolution of the meta that is yet to come, though not for a very long time indeed.

That's why I think EVO is important, and why I think that, for all its success and excitement, we have a very long way to go.

Apologies if none of this made any sense, I'm just tossing out thoughts as they come to me. There's a kernel of rationality in there if you can find it, god rest your errant soul.

Well spoken, the thing is we do not really know what customs will do in the future, and we did not really see the full potential of customs either, since tons of players didn't opt to use them even when they clearly should've and/or didn't know what to do in the face of customs. IMO we learned one more thing, that even a huge tournament like EVO isn't enough to make players take customs seriously and treat them like they would regular moves in the default meta, the fact that customs are hanging loose is just too much of a risk factor for people to invest in them. Thus if and when customs die, they will do so without having been seen at their full potency unless they become the standard or close to it without the risk of them suddenly not being used in the future.Tricky situation

 

[blackghost]

not t mention needles are really hard to even see on some stages. As broen as it is i enjoyed watching confirms into HSB. rewards offensive play and makes the defensive player be in a bad spot (something this game needs a little more of). also im not sure calls for ban on hsb are fair even now. ESAM is THE pikachu there are how many players play him on tournment? and if a move gets banned i think it should be thunder wave not HSB. We saw on stream someone live at 80 percent from it at no charge it isn't a free kill unless it was at least partially charged and the only thing that comboed into it was thunder wave if it was charged. thoughts?

 

[TakeYourHeart]

How? For me, every win without ZeRo has an asterisk. As a spectator, I want to see the best player play. As a player, I want to see the best player play. I can't imagine that Nairo and Mr. R and the rest want ZeRo to leave without being beaten. I'm sorry, I can't stand the attitude of "thank God the best player is gone." I'm not usually a competitive person, but I understand that competitive people don't think this way.

I've harped on this point enough, sorry.

It's unfortunate for sure, but think of it this way: if/when he comes back there will be excitement for the old champ to see how well he takes on the throne he vacated and how far the meta has gone.

 

[lijero13ss]

So customs is over now?

 

[ARGHETH]

So customs is over now?

No they aren't. What gave you that idea?

 

[Minordeth]

A few post-EVO thoughts:

1. People need to calm down. This game hasn't even been out a year. We have a rapidly changing and developing meta. Modern fighting games are going to naturally be different than the fighters of the 90's, by virtue of patches. We may not ever have a solid tier list. Hell, modern fighters from here on may not ever have solid tier lists, and that's okay. What matters, and what has always mattered, is match-up knowledge, which usually incrementally changes with patches. That's the exciting part. People need to get away from the idea that a tier-list, by itself, is so important for fighting game validity. A tier list is a representation of MUs on a continuum across all characters. We are in a unique situation where we have a deep fighter that we are just scratching the surface of, and fluid changes across characters that continually raises the ceiling on understanding the actual nitty gritty applications.

2. Zero is probably focusing on Melee not due to lack of competition, because honestly, Nairo and a handful of others could give him a run for his money, but due to a wider money pool. Think about it, Zero is a true professional player. He lives and breathes Smash. Melee is a scene with money behind it, and given his work ethic, Zero is eyeing those pots. I doubt he will stop developing himself in Sm4sh (cause money), but he will be more selective in his tourney appearances. It's only natural, as he establishes himself as someone who can be self-sufficient with tourney winnings, that he gets more time to practice, which leads to more winnings, and so on. Melee makes sense for Zero to adopt, because the meta is "approaching infinity" on the curve. It's going to be quicker for him to analyze because there are far fewer unknowns than in Smash 4. It's like a top SF4 player adopting SF3:3S. They will know the tiers, the strats, the MUs, because it is established. All that remains is practice.

3. You want him in the Smash 4 meta. You always want your best players in the meta, because it raises the bar and advances it faster. Every player that prepares for Zero becomes a better player.

4. EVO has demonstrated the need to switch to 3 stocks. I think it's time, and given that Smash 4 finished ahead of schedule, three stocks allows a more true competition. More data points = bigger sample size = a better reflection of real skill.

5. Congrats to everyone.

 

[Snackss]

I do wish it was 3 stocks. Having an entire round decided because somebody gets a footstool or a gimp 10 seconds in is frustrating.

Not referencing the Abadango fight, I wanted him to win.

 

[Gawain]

I do wish it was 3 stocks. Having an entire round decided because somebody gets a footstool or a gimp 10 seconds in is frustrating.

Not referencing the Abadango fight, I wanted him to win.

It would have taken unmanageably long at 3 stocks. 2 stocks is just fine.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Also a Sonic actually got to Top 15. He was Top 9. So i'm happy for that.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A few post-EVO thoughts:

1. People need to calm down. This game hasn't even been out a year. We have a rapidly changing and developing meta. Modern fighting games are going to naturally be different than the fighters of the 90's, by virtue of patches. We may not ever have a solid tier list. Hell, modern fighters from here on may not ever have solid tier lists, and that's okay. What matters, and what has always mattered, is match-up knowledge, which usually incrementally changes with patches. That's the exciting part. People need to get away from the idea that a tier-list, by itself, is so important for fighting game validity. A tier list is a representation of MUs on a continuum across all characters. We are in a unique situation where we have a deep fighter that we are just scratching the surface of, and fluid changes across characters that continually raises the ceiling on understanding the actual nitty gritty applications.

2. Zero is probably focusing on Melee not due to lack of competition, because honestly, Nairo and a handful of others could give him a run for his money, but due to a wider money pool. Think about it, Zero is a true professional player. He lives and breathes Smash. Melee is a scene with money behind it, and given his work ethic, Zero is eyeing those pots. I doubt he will stop developing himself in Sm4sh (cause money), but he will be more selective in his tourney appearances. It's only natural, as he establishes himself as someone who can be self-sufficient with tourney winnings, that he gets more time to practice, which leads to more winnings, and so on. Melee makes sense for Zero to adopt, because the meta is "approaching infinity" on the curve. It's going to be quicker for him to analyze because there are far fewer unknowns than in Smash 4. It's like a top SF4 player adopting SF3:3S. They will know the tiers, the strats, the MUs, because it is established. All that remains is practice.

3. You want him in the Smash 4 meta. You always want your best players in the meta, because it raises the bar and advances it faster. Every player that prepares for Zero becomes a better player.

4. EVO has demonstrated the need to switch to 3 stocks. I think it's time, and given that Smash 4 finished ahead of schedule, three stocks allows a more true competition. More data points = bigger sample size = a better reflection of real skill.

5. Congrats to everyone.

3 stocks for sure. I don't enjoy losing entire matches because of like 2 mistakes. When there are 3 stocks I feel like I can take risks without putting my head on the line.

 

[Peahnuts]

Thats what he tried to do game one and missed, Zero popped out of the stun at a weird angle and Nairo whiffed.

He did the run back-jump-reverse flip kick, which gives you less time to aim and has a stricter timing.

 

[Minordeth]

The boards, and I think Thinkaman, looked into the time it takes for 3 vs 2 stocks, and came to the conclusion that 3 is actually the same length if not faster on average than 2. It makes intuitive sense when you realize that players have more freedom to go in and not worry about as many mistakes costing them the match. Comebacks are also a real thing with more stocks, as a result. Risk reward calculations are skewed towards overly safe play with two stocks. We can also look at high level Melee play and conclude the same thing, as for all the technical prowess the top players have, they do make quite a few errors in a given match, although they have multiple stocks to build momentum.

Think about this, Stallager is more viable in two stocks than three, due to the fact that if the Villager gains a stock lead, it reduces the margin for error for the opposing side far more than having an extra stock buffer would.

 

[Girthquake]

The boards, and I think Thinkaman, looked into the time it takes for 3 vs 2 stocks, and came to the conclusion that 3 is actually the same length if not faster on average than 2. It makes intuitive sense when you realize that players have more freedom to go in and not worry about as many mistakes costing them the match. Comebacks are also a real thing with more stocks, as a result. Risk reward calculations are skewed towards overly safe play with two stocks. We can also look at high level Melee play and conclude the same thing, as for all the technical prowess the top players have, they do make quite a few errors in a given match, although they have multiple stocks to build momentum.

Think about this, Stallager is more viable in two stocks than three, due to the fact that if the Villager gains a stock lead, it reduces the margin for error for the opposing side far more than having an extra stock buffer would.

Everyone listen to this man.

 

[Pyr]

Post a source to show that matches are faster overall with 3. I think tos would rather a set max time over a maybe less maybe more situation. And mistakes should be punished. You have your next game to make up for it. Dont use that john for stock counts.

 

[TakeYourHeart]

So customs is over now?

Nope.
More then anything, them turning out to not define EVO (in a way most players would call jank) but still have a noticeable presence?

I think the Pro-Custom side can call this a win.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Inb4 abadango places like 25th or 33rd at the next japan tournament ... really happy he made it that far though. Fun to watch as always.

I don't think it'd be a good thing for the smash 4 metagame if Zero decided to take a longer hiatus from the game. I mean, I can see where he's coming from but having somebody around who seems to be impossible to beat is important to help other people giving something to work up to. Would Nairo have been able to push ZSS as far as he did had it not been for Zero? I have my doubts about it.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I hate to say it but stock count is always going to be 2. Even if there was concrete, irrefutable evidence that 3 stock was better in every situation, TOs would still use 2 stock because it's more convenient for them.

 

[Thinkaman]

A very limited data set once suggested that 3 stock matches take an average of 70-80 seconds longer than 2 stock matches. Worst case, obviously, is 120.

 

[Gawain]

A very limited data set once suggested that 3 stock matches take an average of 70-80 seconds longer than 2 stock matches. Worst case, obviously, is 120.

Yeah, and if you average this out over hundreds upon hundreds of sets, that is a lot more time. Smash already has significantly more time allotted to it than almost any other game, even if you adjust for entrant numbers. I don't think the benefits of 3 stock are even all that great, I am still unconvinced by the argument.

 

[[Deuce]]

Originally concerned about infinites, Ally brilliantly using cape against esam. The real culprit for customs is tripping seed.. mega anti hype

also wario bike spam....

 

[Ray-Den]

as long as sonics and custom villagers are not banned, im pro 2-stock

 

[Mr. Johan]

As long as Sonic's moveset is stopped cold by simple Jab 1s and Nairs and Fairs that facilitate him to play hit and run, Sonic will not be banned, and thus 2-stock I guess.

Whole other shoe dropping sort of deal.

 

[Shaya]

And we've probably reached the end of this thread's life span.
Hope everyone is enjoying/enjoyed the evo weekend. Back to business now