Editorial: A Smashing Debate, Part 3

Should Halberd be legal? Are Delfino’s tiny blast zones a deal breaker? Are Castle Siege’s walk-offs such a bad feature? We’re here to settle this once and for all; and what other way to do it than through the Smashing Debate! As always, we’re joined by other writers or a special guest to chime in on the subject; today, we are joined by One Hit Smash. But, before we get into discussing, a friendly warning and disclaimer:

WARNING​

Salt is a scare commodity in many regions of the world, so it is a good idea not to waste it on a community centered around a game designed for entertainment, and a discussion done just for your enjoyment. You have been warned.

DISCLAIMER​

The following article does not reflect the opinion of Smashboards as a whole, nor does it reflect decisions or opinions given by the Back Room. The opinions in this article belong uniquely and only to the ones that express them.

Note: For the sake of the article, we will be using the ruleset used in Genesis 3, which consisted of the following stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Town & City, and Dreamland 64 as starters and Lylat Cruise and Duck Hunt as counterpicks.

The Issue​

Now, normally stages are defined by some characteristics and divided into “Starters”, which are available since the first match, and “Counterpicks” or just “Counters” that are available after the first match. What makes a stage legal? There is a series of guidelines that establish what makes a stage legal; and what defines them as starters or counters? Well, starters normally check all items on the list, but counters are exceptions, whether it is by having walk-offs, having tiny or huge blast zones, etc.

Many discuss some specific cases, like Halberd; which has hazards – that are predictable and can be easily avoided. Others argue about Delfino, which has acceptable layouts – but tiny blast zones, and the majority of its variations have walk-offs. And a recent topic of discussion is Umbra Clock Tower, which has a high ceiling and changing layouts, but some argue that its blast zones are too big, or that the variations are not acceptable.

A topic that is not commonly brought to the table is that whether the list should be divided into starters and counters, or if it should be a full stage list. Both sides bring different perspectives. Also, unconventional rulesets like three-versus-three and four-versus-four are currently in a sort of limbo, as there are not universal rulesets on these categories.

The Perspectives​

Since this a very open topic, with many variations, there are no defined perspectives – some think that Halberd should be legal but Umbra should not; other think that Umbra should be and Castle Siege too. So, instead, we’re presenting the case for each controversial stage.

Halberd: Low ceiling, but acceptable layout. For many months Halberd was legal, but there were so many arguments against it. “The Cannon and The Claw are hazards”, “It has walk-offs at the beginning of the match”. You could write a book on the complaints about it, but in the end, it was decided that Halberd's layout was acceptable and many think that the reason that made Halberd become legal, although by a small margin, was that its hazards were predictable.

Castle Siege: Three variations: one with two platforms and a ramp, one with four platforms and walk-offs, and one similar to Final Destination but with an inclination. What made most people hate this stage was its second variation, with incredibly small blast zones and walk-offs. It has no hazards but still, the people against it made a pretty good case against it, specially the second variation. There were also complaints about the transitional layout in between the variations, which had flat ground and walkoffs.

Umbra Clock Tower: A discussion fresh out of the oven. It has 7 different layouts, not including the standard one. One of its variation makes walk-offs, other goes under the main platform making good locations for stalling, and another gives characters with "bombing" throws (i.e. Kirby’s Up-Throw, Meta Knight’s Up-Throw, Charizard’s Up-Throw) the opportunity to get some early kills. Many use these arguments against it, making it seem like a lost cause, but pro-UCT players think that all of these characteristics mix up things, or that don’t matter at all.

Our Opinions​

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Hangman​

The idea of a stage being neutral is false in Smash, in one way or another, a stage will favor certain characters. The only game where this isn’t the case is Smash 64 because it only uses Dreamland and even then, the stage favors characters with better recoveries and aerial options. That’s part of the reason why you only see DK used in the highest skill levels in 64; the work to put in on Dreamland far exceeds that for using a better character if you were at Hyrule Castle.

I feel in Smash 4, the stages are biased towards characters with specific movement options and combos, and the counterpicks only shift the dynamics, but never equalize it. Lylat Cruise is my favorite stage for this reason. It’s an awfully-designed stage and even with the patch to assist with not getting caught in its wings, the stage’s design, low platforms, small blast zones, and occasional tilting make for a completely different mindset you need to play with. It favors punishment over the neutral far more than any other stage because it is so dynamic.

Out of all of the things that make Smash 4 quirky or otherwise unappealing like Rage Effect, comparatively fewer movement options, and (sigh) Bayonetta combos, I feel that the stage list we work with is the worst of the bunch and is something that people don’t really think about. No stage ever really impacts a MU equally, they only make things heavier in the favorable side of the MU and in the case of a ditto or a straight 50-50 it comes down to who can control the stage the best.

3v3 has a shot of picking up if its involved at a major, even if it is a side tourney. The stage list for it is simply greater than what we work with in singles and doubles. 4v4 I feel is too chaotic though. While it is fun, it doesn't have a place where glory or money is on the line.

One Hit Smash​

I agree with all of the legal stages as of now, however, there are some I’d like to add to the roster. I feel they’re being treated a little unfairly. First off, I’d like it if T&C were to be moved to a counterpick stage due to its ceiling. That’s the reason most players choose that stage anyways. If it’s neutral, a lot of characters, like Mario or Fox, have the upper hand right at the start.

I feel like Omega stages are being treated VERY unfairly. If you’re going to ban any, ban the ones that have true issues, like Pyrosphere. The Omegas with walls bring more gameplay mechanics into the game, like wall jumping. Allowing players to mix up recovery, and attack options, even teching a meteor! Allow the Omegas with walls to be a counterpick, all other aren’t REQUIRED for a competitive play. Walls just add a new aspect.

A stage I would like to see added BACK to the roster would be Halberd. The stage hazards rarely caused an issue, and it’s very easy to escape the cannonball, block the claw and SDI the laser IF you happen to be hit. The actual stage itself was a nice counterpick, with no walk-offs, hardly any issues, and a nice low ceiling.

Finally, UCT. I truly believe this stage shouldn’t be allowed into the mix. It brings walk-offs into play, encourages platform camping, and has platforms that have walls, allowing for higher damage combos to be easy if the opponent can’t tech. The stage showed promise, but it just doesn’t fit for COMPETITIVE play. However, it’s very fun on its own! Same goes for Delfino, and Castle Siege!

Diosdi
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I feel that the stage list is one of the most volatile aspects of the community; just look at the beginning of the Wii U competitive stage list. It had Skyloft and Pilotwings in some communities; now they are nowhere to be seen. I think that the current list is good, including Umbra Clock Tower; I think that it should be allowed. It has acceptable layouts that mix up the normal “three platforms” standard and changes the common uses of platforms. In UCT you never know what you are going to get; there are 7 different layouts appearing randomly before repeating, and the fact that some platforms are solid, or that a platform goes under the main stage, are no reason to ban. I mean, come on, Halberd had a laser and we still kept it for a few months – almost half of the competitive scene’s lifespan.

I think that Castle Siege could be accepted sometimes; whether it is a tournament without DLC, or just wanting to expand the current conception of a stage list, it is acceptable. I think it is, in fact, more decent than Halberd.

The cliché-ish thought of a divided stage list is acceptable, and the not-so-cliche-ish though of a unified stage list is too; but out of the both, I think that the first one is the most fitting for Smash 4. The stages are too unbalanced in the sense that there are some stages that should be by any means starters and deserve to be counters. Do you imagine starting a set in Duck Hunt? Me neither. I’m not saying that unifying the list is “unacceptable”, I think it could work, but I also think that a divided list is more fitting for such a diverse list, with stages that have some definitely-not-starter characteristics.

I think that Omegas are actually decent, from a competitive point of view. They do not change anything from FD, besides the form of the main platform, but they bring variety to the list. Wall jumping is an amazing and underused mechanic in competitive play, whether it is for recovery or offensive purposes.

3v3 and 4v4 open up a lot of stage possibilities, paradoxically, from its limitations. Pyrosphere lacks Ridley, and Norfair’s walls of lava are nowhere to be seen, making them totally viable for a competitive fight, and this is just naming a few.

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So what do you think? Should Halberd be back in the game? Unified or divided stage list? Are 3v3 and 4v4 viable? Let us know!, and be sure to follow both Hangman and One Hit Smash (and subscribe!)

 

Stuff like this makes it a challenge to play Sm4sh sometimes. We have so few stages with so little MU difference. Omegas are also a super weird problem to tackle, simply because there are so many. Maybe I should just play Melee...

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Sm4sh is a bad game, or that Melee is superior or whatever. All I'm saying is that for me, as a new player to the competitive scene and someone who is still developing their fundamentals, it may be better to focus on a game with a more developed meta first. Don't let that discourage you guys from developing Sm4sh's meta though! It's a great game, but I'm not sure it's for me right now...

 

Is it ok if I pick out every single typo in this article?
I get bothered by that kind of thing

 

My thoughts on each topic:

The distinction between starters and CPs is rather blurry, and while some stages do have more obvious advantages to them, any stage will favor a certain character to a noticeable degree (the textbook example is Mac on FD). I'm fine with either a starter-CP or single-list system, though; there are arguments for both sides.

Omegas should be allowed, no harm in 'em. Just treat them like FD for bans, DSR, etc, and allow players to pick whichever one they'd like when selecting the stage (as One Hit Smash mentioned, wall-jumps etc add some variety to the gameplay). Also, they add some visual variety and whatnot, which is always nice.

Halberd should be legal. The walk-off at the start is really reaching for a reason to ban it tbh, it's not as if anyone is going to get much out of camping it for what, ten seconds? The hazards are extremely telegraphed, and can be avoided by keeping on the move. They also test a player's ability to adapt to the situation, a key part of Smash even with no randomized elements.

Castle Siege... I dunno. The castle-top and lava transformations are fine by me, but it's that darned hallway that irks me. Walk-offs, projectile-blocking statues... bleh. I'm not a fan, but I can see it being added to the stage list since at least the hallway transformation is only there 1/3 of the time. Something I think could work, though, is having custom stages which replicate the layout of the castle-top form to a tee, and having those be on every console at a tourney. This also goes for PS2, Halberd, or even things like the Delfino layouts.

Umbra, I don't mind that much. While it is certainly possible to take advantage of the transformations – Kirby uthrowing off the high platforms, doing some short-term camping on the underside platform, etc – it's not going to stick around for very long at all, especially since each layout can only appear once per cycle. Again, it encourages adaptation, and being aware of the situation.

And as for 3v3 / 4v4... I have enough trouble keeping track of doubles, so I'm not sure that this would be for me.

 

I'd love to see Delfino among the legal stages. It's my favorite map!

 

Since we mentioned the rage effect and the relatively few movement options, lets fix those first. :3

 

I'd love to see 3v3 become a thing. It sets sm4sh apart from the other games. It'd be neat to see a stage list. What are we looking at?

 

Awesome read.

 

"That’s why you only see DK used in the highest skill levels in 64, the work to put in on Dreamland far exceeds using another better character o if you were at Hyrule Castle"
excuse me WHAT

 

• Always a fan of Omegas, for walls and musical counterpicking.
• Halberd's jank is pretty telegraphed and the only time l've seen the walk-off be a problem was in a montage supporting Evo, and the ZSS would've gotten a kill regardless.
• Castle Siege will hold a special place in my heart, but not for competitive. Don't mind seeing it go.
• UCT has a platform that disables Bayo top screen combos in a transition. HOW IS THIS A PROBLEM. But yeah, l haven't played on here enough to get an idea of how jank it is.
• Delfino is Delfino. l haven't an opinion on it.

Not much else for me to say. Except that you should proofread more.

 

Yes, of course 3v3 is viable! But yes, 4v4 istoo hectic and causes a lot of confusion.

 

I think it's pretty absurd that Halberd is banned now. I don't think there's any reason, or collections of reasons, large enough to justify banning that particular stage.

Delfino should be legal. The blast zones can be kind of jank, but it takes a lot of player skill to use the jank to your advantage while not getting Delfinoed yourself. I can see a ban maybe working, but only in really conservative rulesets. Unfortunately, TOs all seem to run more or less the same ruleset, regions don't try their own things anymore.

I can see Castle Siege being banned in Smash 4, and IMO it should have been banned in Brawl. Its not as much of a problem in Smash 4, but if you're on the wrong part of the stage at the wrong transformation you can be pulled down to the blast zone, even if you jump. Add in the campy second phase, and I think that you can justify banning it, but the topic should be open for debate.

Umbran Clock Tower is without a doubt banworthy. The ledges are crazy, with different types of crazy depending on which side of the stage you're on. The platforms too easily and too often save a player, and if you're unlucky they can even stop you from recovering.

I haven't heard any talk of banning Omegas. AFAIK they've always been treated as FD for countepicking. I have heard a few slight rumblings near Wii U launch of banning the Xenoblade Omega, but that was only because the grass affects run speed. I don't think anything ever came of that, and I haven't heard talk of it since.

 

I think it's pretty absurd that Halberd is banned now. I don't think there's any reason, or collections of reasons, large enough to justify banning that particular stage.

Delfino should be legal. The blast zones can be kind of jank, but it takes a lot of player skill to use the jank to your advantage while not getting Delfinoed yourself. I can see a ban maybe working, but only in really conservative rulesets. Unfortunately, TOs all seem to run more or less the same ruleset, regions don't try their own things anymore.

I can see Castle Siege being banned in Smash 4, and IMO it should have been banned in Brawl. Its not as much of a problem in Smash 4, but if you're on the wrong part of the stage at the wrong transformation you can be pulled down to the blast zone, even if you jump. Add in the campy second phase, and I think that you can justify banning it, but the topic should be open for debate.

Umbran Clock Tower is without a doubt banworthy. The ledges are crazy, with different types of crazy depending on which side of the stage you're on. The platforms too easily and too often save a player, and if you're unlucky they can even stop you from recovering.

I haven't heard any talk of banning Omegas. AFAIK they've always been treated as FD for countepicking. I have heard a few slight rumblings near Wii U launch of banning the Xenoblade Omega, but that was only because the grass affects run speed. I don't think anything ever came of that, and I haven't heard talk of it since.

I'm pretty sure all stages with grass affect traction, but I don't see why that'd be ban-worthy or anything

 

Allow all the ones mentioned in the article. Even Skyloft and Pilotwings. Fuggit. Tired of seeing the same ol' ****.

 

Haven't we figured out walk-offs and stage hazards for like nearly a decade now in every other smash game? Why should the solution be any different in sm4sh?

 

No stage ever really impacts an MU favorably, they only make things heavier in the favorable ond of the MU

Sooo stages do not impact MUs favorably but they impact favorable matchups ?

Halberd's hazard is not about being predictable of whatever, it's about targeting a player randomly. RNG doesn't have a place in competitive play and should be removed as much as possible.
Plus its low ceiling causes a strategical redundancy with TC.

 

I just love how people "discuss" about stages like Halberd, Delfino and CS being legal. You guys do you while I play tournament matches on PS2.

 

3v3 needs to be an actual thing please. So many more stages to use.

Doubles with a fifth player to SD their stocks to allow use for stages like Pyrosphere and Pokemon Stadium 2 would be godlike also.

 

I still don't understand why Omega's were every banned. Seriously, just let me fight on Boxing Ring and Skyflot.

Also, if Delfino is being consider, what about Skyfolt?

 

halberd's laser broke my shield amd costed me a set. hell no.

 

Halberd: I was thinking it should be legal, but the laser might screw stuff up. It should be aviodable though so keep it legal

Castle Siege: Ban, secnd transormation are so annoying.

Delfino Plazalease keep this legal. I really like this stage even if it has some walk-offs

Umbra Clock Tower:Legal I guess, I don't really play on this stage.

I've seen tournaments that ban Duck Hunt and Omegas too, which shouldn't even be a debate. Omega Stages are barely differant from final destination outside of aethistics and music, and I would never go a to a tournament that bans Duck Hunt.

 

Stuff like this makes it a challenge to play Sm4sh sometimes. We have so few stages with so little MU difference. Omegas are also a super weird problem to tackle, simply because there are so many. Maybe I should just play Melee...

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Sm4sh is a bad game, or that Melee is superior or whatever. All I'm saying is that for me, as a new player to the competitive scene and someone who is still developing their fundamentals, it may be better to focus on a game with a more developed meta first. Don't let that discourage you guys from developing Sm4sh's meta though! It's a great game, but I'm not sure it's for me right now...

Trust me on this, if you try to play smash 4 after you play Melee like your post implies, you will have a really hard time.

 

I loved the 4v4 at ktar on the wiiu's opening weekend and it even had hyrule temple legal. The reason I like quads the best is that it requires more teamwork than trips and doubs and it makes more characters viable since you have 3 partners to cover a weakness for example little Mac.

While I do like halberd, delfino, castle siege and choose them depending on the matchup. One thing I don't miss with 10 stage list, is the other player taking 5 minutes picking 2 bans or choosing a stage. (I memorized what stages to pick/ban against each character so it didn't affect me, but I just could stand that the downtime was longer than the actual match a lot of the time.)

 

The problem with Halberd is that its inclusion shifts the stage list to one that greatly favors characters who kill off the top, as opposed to only slightly favoring them. We already have T&C and Dreamland 64, and we don't need more low ceiling stages.

 

You know what? I don't care anymore. Let's bring back walkoffs. What's their main problem? They give an unfair advantage to certain characters. They were banned in Melee literally because waveshines. If anybody's seen Eddie vs a fox getting waveshined up the Yoshi's Ilsand slant...

Delfino shouldn't be banned. "Oh no! I die before 700%! I never got full rage!" Sucks. Deal with it. Strike that stage in your set if you want.

Smash 4 has too many stages to allow only 5 starters in competitive. Hell, even Melee has five starters, and Smash 4 has added about a dozen more stages. It's just ridiculous. I remember the old days when Pokefloats was still legal (right up until RoM6...). Bring them back and let's SEE the problem with them before we just ban them on theory.

 

I used to like uct until i got upthrown into a platform that unsuspectingly stage/meteorspiked me to a very confusing death.

 

I would like to see all these stages legal again. For one I LOVE Halberd, it was my go to counter pick when it wasn't banned by my opponent. Delfino Plaza also made things interesting and I like Umbra Clock Tower's bottom platforms.

I always hear from people "Well it's hard to play on the stage." Well 1. That's kind of the point of counter picking and 2. The changes the stages make are very minor compared to stages like say Pac-Land or Midgar.

As for Delfino, at least the stage drop offs aren't like Skyloft, Mario Kart, and Wuhu Island where it's possible for you to get dropped over a bottomless pit.

I feel there needs to be more stages for counter picks because at the moment there's only 2 and one of them is another batlefield but with Whispy being Whispy. Almost makes the idea of counter picks kind of pointless.

 

I'll give an honest opinion about the stage roster; it's still pretty bad due to having such a low amount of stages, some of which that are poorly designed. Often or not, you will usually see a list having at least Duck Hunt, Town and City and even Umbra Clock Tower, all on it. Those three stages favor a certain cast of characters more than any other character and have flaws that other, oft banned or counterpick stages, have.

Now Town and City isn't the worst stage, because it has redeemable factors, so I won't be talking about that as a reason to get it banned.

Spoiler: Duck Hunt

Duck Hunt, despite looking like it has a high ceiling, doesn't have a high ceiling at all; that's what the guys on the stage analysis threads want you to believe. In reality, it's got a ceiling that's the lowest in the game. Now this is a big claim, but where is the evidence itself on the stage? Well, the tree itself; the highest point of that tree, when I've tested on it, allowed my ROB to kill an opponent starting from the 10% range with D-Throw > U-Air.

Secondly, the stage is extremely large, the largest stage in any list actually, and this is another flaw in the stage if you combine its height to its length; circle camping. Any character with good aerial mobility and safety can very easily just get away from their opponent with the utmost of ease, allowing for degenerative gameplay and a boring experience overall.

Those two reasons alone would be able to get this stage banned, but I don't know why people never point it out.

Spoiler: Umbra Clock Tower

Okay, who're the people who are deciding on the stage list for the Americas, because I ought to slap them with a lot of salt. The stage should not be in competitive play...ever. If it was put into competitive play, then why not Delfino, Siege, Skyloft or even Mario Circuit 8 or Wuhu Island? No seriously, why just this stage that's probably the worst of the transformation stages?

It has walk-offs, it has caves of life and it has platforms that can kill you faster than, and I emphasize those two words, Town and City's own soft platforms. So let me give the question; why the hell are people hypocrites? They say that one stage is banned for the same reasons as UCT, but they'll certainly allow UCT to be a counterpick?

This is more of a rant than analysis, but come on, whoever makes these lists needs to get common sense drilled into their head.

Spoiler: The Stage Roster Rants

And that's another thing, why do we have a select few people make up our entire stage roster, huh? We already have stages that favor certain characters, so why can't we have stages that favor other characters and increase the roster? As of now, it's either 5 or 7, but there's no way in hell that's a good thing.

Having a low stage roster just tells me that yes, the people who are making the official American stage roster for Tournaments are catering to top tiers. Despite these stages being thought of as 'neutral', there's nothing neutral about Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt or even Umbra Clock Tower, for they pander to certain characters', often top tiers', advantages over many other different characters.

If I were to say how many stages there'd have to be, I'd say at least give everyone the option to pick up to 16. That way stages that are actually very decent and actually have some fair parts to them can be allowed.

In a tournament and some professional matches, I went against some people on 1-on-1 matches, playing on the stage Skyloft. And guess what, no one dared stay at the edges of the walk-offs, but instead, just actually fight 1-on-1. Now you might say, "Oh, Larry, then you're saying that UCT can have that same thing.", but I'll reply that it still has the rising platforms and caves of life.

In my honest and actual educated opinion of testing, I think the stage of Skyloft is definitely a counterpick stage despite its own walk-offs, only because the walk-offs aren't even that bad; no seriously, if they were that bad, I would have killed my opponent with Ganondorf's F-Air at at least 50% damage near the zone, but they didn't die; they literally died at 90%. That's pretty much like me using Ganondorf's F-Air on someone at 90% on a stage equivalent to Final Destination, on the edge.

So...what the hell, Smashboards, what have you even been doing? I mean, sure, your stage analysis can say one thing, but bloody hell, actually use those stages in at least ten tournaments before you do a bloody damn thing about it. Don't just analyze the stage and just skim it over through little play tests, actually put the stage in a tournament scene multiple times and see what people do in it. I did it with Skyloft and no one opted for the stupid walk-off edge kill or camp, and I tested it in multiple tournaments too.

So damn, just test those stages in a real competitive scene before you do anything. And no, no one even defend the "analyzers" just because they analyzed something and did some small observations on it, actually, just go do it yourself, m'mate. You can see my bloody point that the stage rules are a bunch of bull****.

 

Radical Larry

Umbra's platforms drop you off before reaching the blast zone – they become intangible, so you won't get dragged off the screen. (A rare case which happens to not follow this rule is also the platform on the underside, offering a bit of a discouragement to camping there.) They also visibly shake before they go away. And it's not as if Delfino, Castle Siege, Skyloft, Mario Circuit, and Wuhu don't have walk-offs (Skyloft and Mario Circuit also have caves of life, and then there's things like water, the kart hazards, destructible statues, etc etc).

 

I rather have Peach's castle 64 (and perhaps even Pokémon Stadium 2) legal.
I find both stages even less disruptive and more predictable than Lylat, which is sometimes considered a starter.

Though these stages are never or rarely talked about.
Really hope there will be some more discussions about these stages and stages in general.

 

Something I've really noticed when it comes to stage selection is how much misinformation there is over what makes a stage banworthy. So little of this has been discussed, and with so little transparency, that a lot of players don't understand why the decisions that are initially made are actually made. Halberd's often low ceiling, Delfino's occasionally small blast zones, and the craziness that happens sometimes with Castle Siege's transition phases are legitimate reasons to discuss their legality. But more often than not, the latter two are instantly banned for having any walkoffs at any point (even though being temporary limits how polarizing they can be), and the former just for having any stage hazards! There's this underlying idea that a competitively legal stage cannot be anything other than a stationary flat platform with (optionally) a few smaller platforms above it, and that isn't actually the case!

We have people making decisions who don't understand why previous decisions were made...and that is not a good thing.

Worse yet are the people who instantly ban something as soon as something weird happens surrounding it because they don't want to bother learning about it...but that's a different story...

 

It would be nice to see Delfino in the rotations

 

I've always been of the opinion that if FD were an available option, a player should be allowed to pick any omega stage as an alternative if both players agreed to it, and FD be the default if neither player could mutually agree on an omega stage. I really like the music in Gaur Plains, guys. Do not make this more difficult for me.

 

Radical Larry

Umbra's platforms drop you off before reaching the blast zone – they become intangible, so you won't get dragged off the screen. (A rare case which happens to not follow this rule is also the platform on the underside, offering a bit of a discouragement to camping there.) They also visibly shake before they go away. And it's not as if Delfino, Castle Siege, Skyloft, Mario Circuit, and Wuhu don't have walk-offs (Skyloft and Mario Circuit also have caves of life, and then there's things like water, the kart hazards, destructible statues, etc etc).

Spoiler: The Response and Rant

Okay, I've been constantly hearing that Skyloft has a cave of life, but the only one I actually see is that one very obscure and very easy-to-get-the-opponent-out-of cave of life; that thing is beyond easy to get the opponent out of and doesn't offer much life, does it? I mean, I haven't really seen it get abused or exploited in any way, probably because nobody really cares about it and just wants to fight on the other parts of the same part of that stage.

I mean in all seriousness, the cave of life there is negligible in usage since it's not really that much utilized within the matches. But really, we have to ban a stage with very little walk-offs, so much opportunity and for what? Because we have a cave of life that nobody really uses because they can get the kill more efficiently than that now and days?

And as for Mario Circuit, uh...you do know that the "cave of life" is...only on one portion of the stage and is extremely high up, right? In comparison to all of the other caves of life (rant of the name later), this cave of life is so enormous, it'd be impossible NOT to get a side or lower blast zone KO. You know, the type of KO that almost always happens in tournament play, and rarely does an upper blast zone KO ever happen normally?

I mean, Mario Circuit 8 has to be one of the most balanced transitional stages within the game outside of Skyloft itself. With Mario Circuit 8, we have one main platform that never changes, just a few walk-offs, two hazards that don't even do much and a hell of a lot of balanced portions of the stage that make it look like it's a good CP stage, just not a good neutral stage. And at least it would allow other characters to have a chance, unlike Duck Hunt, since it has such a relatively good-height upper blast zone.

And as for Skyloft...still, I don't see the problem with it. It's a stage that doesn't have the crappy low blast zones that almost all the current tournament legal or CP stages actually suffer from. And hey, let me just tell you something about the uh...UTC rising platform thing. Yeah, they become intangible before you reach the blast zone, but that doesn't mean you or your opponent can't grab one another and send them into the upper blast zone. That can really happen, too, it's not a myth at all.

Spoiler: Cave of Life Name Peeve

And another thing is, why is everything with a ceiling on top or a blocked side called a "cave of life"? Isn't a cave of life something that is meant to cover nearly all corners and look like what Temple has? Or what Palutena's Temple legitimately has? Or what the Great CAVE Offensive is in general?

So how is it that the term "cave of life" applies to stages like Hyrule Castle, Mario Circuit U and even Skyloft? No really, look at Hyrule Castle; that portion where you do tech isn't even a cave. If anything, that's a really bad place to actually be in since you're just leaving yourself to get hit by something outside of the area, expecting to have tech'd. As for Mario Circuit U, you know that isn't a cave at all, right? That's literally only a ceiling that's blocked; nothing else is blocked, you know, so why isn't it just called the "ceiling of life"? And what about Skyloft? The only cave there isn't even accessible in the game, and yet we still have people dub the one part of the stage as a "cave of life" when it's not even used much, if at all. It looks like more of a "ceiling" than a cave to me, because the only real hard platforms don't even go to the side of it.

Spoiler: Sometimes Ignorance Leads to Smashville

No seriously, go play Ness, fight your opponent, get them on the soft platform and use F-Throw or B-Throw. No seriously, go ahead and do it, see how low you can get your opponent to be before they get KO'd and die because they were too close. Now this, THIS actually happens within tournament matches, and it's very evident when you see it.

You have one character, say Ness, hit the opponent on the platform as it's heading to the side. Ness decides to reset neutral and now start to grab the opponent, say, Mario or Link even, and decides to use F-Throw or B-Throw on them, depending on where he's at, and the platform's near the very edge. What is the opponent going to even respond with? They're pretty much in that tight corner to where they're almost guaranteed to die.

You guys say that Walk-Offs are very bad, but this is just worse than that! I mean, at least with walk-offs, you often don't have to worry about a damn platform close to the blast zone to catch you and not allow you to tech, because they're almost never there. But with Smashville, no matter how neutral that stage may be, the platform may disrupt tech ability and allow for some characters to get KOs that are extremely early.

So say that Ness combo thing you just did worked on Smashville, and you decide that you should go to Mario Galaxy. Try it there. Yeah, impossible without the opponent actually retaliating. In fact, that Ness combo that happened on Smashville can't work because of the orientation of the walk-off stage not matching that of Smashville's, thus obviously removing that one death combo that almost always happens on Smashville itself.

So let me ask, how do we have Smashville legal while the walk-offs aren't? I mean, I've yet to see some tournament evidence that states that players abuse these, because it almost would never happen because players know that they're wanting to play more fairly than others.

Spoiler: There's No End To This

If a stage roster comprised only of walk-offs, sure, you might get that one player who could abuse the close blast zone, but here's the thing; they risk having their opponent spot-dodge or roll and actually send them to the KO, This would, in turn, dissuade players from even going near the blast zones on the side only because they can't risk it, and the reward's not worth the risk at all.

So, I think I'm done with my opinions for now. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what should be common sense, right? No offense to anybody, but the analysis to some stages are horrendously flawed in significant ways, and without some actual valid testing or testimony of people who've actually went on a semi-professional or professional run of them against opponents, the analysis of the stage is negligible in the long run.

What you guys theorize players would do is not what the players WILL do in the end. It's in fact, the opposite. You say that they'll just camp around the edges, but they'll just still fight head-on because the risk is almost detrimentally high. You say we can't have Halberd due to low blast zones, but we still have Duck Hunt. And you say that we can't have walk-offs because it's a cheap way for characters to kill, but then why do we have the stage of Smashville?

 

Trust me on this, if you try to play smash 4 after you play Melee like your post implies, you will have a really hard time.

I need to develop skills that are required in any fighting game, like making good reads, baiting attacks, stage control, etc. Who knows if I will play smash 4 after Melee; but I think the Melee scene where I live is stronger than the smash 4 scene, and I can get more support that way.

 

In my opinion, Halberd should not be legal. Or else, every stage with hazards should be if Halberd would come to be one. Because Halberd even have many hazards like the canon bullet, the big laser beam, and the metal robot grip thing.
Furthermore, when I played a few times on this stage with my friends, I noticed that the edges are weird and do not allow all the time characters to follow and trump them when they do UpB.
Anyway that's my opinion tho.

 

In my opinion, Halberd should not be legal. Or else, every stage with hazards should be if Halberd would come to be one.

I agree with the sentiment that if Halberd becomes legal, others should follow. With that said, is that really such a bad thing?

Competitive Sm4sh is really fun, but we are only playing such a tiny fraction of what the game has to offer. It will open up different tactics. Some may find the walk-off stages unfair, or ones with cannons and other projectiles getting hurled at the fighters unreasonable especially if it nets a winning KO. Still, I think using a stage with hazards to one's advantage should be a part of strategy just as much as tech skill.

 

3v3 needs to be an actual thing please. So many more stages to use.

Doubles with a fifth player to SD their stocks to allow use for stages like Pyrosphere and Pokemon Stadium 2 would be godlike also.

I completely agree with you, its much easier to follow and keep up with then 4v4 once watch a game or two. A lot of people think its just a chaotic brawl where you can just press buttons but from all the 3v3 tournaments I saw who are good at them its not the case. The stage awareness people have is nuts, as you have people covering each other, following up with combo's, etc just like doubles. Those who work well together usually beat the other who doesn't even if they're more skilled one on one provided the skill gap isn't nuts.

 

I agree with the sentiment that if Halberd becomes legal, others should follow. With that said, is that really such a bad thing?

Competitive Sm4sh is really fun, but we are only playing such a tiny fraction of what the game has to offer. It will open up different tactics. Some may find the walk-off stages unfair, or ones with cannons and other projectiles getting hurled at the fighters unreasonable especially if it nets a winning KO. Still, I think using a stage with hazards to one's advantage should be a part of strategy just as much as tech skill.

Honestly, I kind of agree with you, really, I'm that part of the fanbase that is okay to play Smash no matter what conditions (items, without items, 300% and stuff) and can still enjoy it. That would in my opinion give to Smash some sort of a second refreshing wind ^^

 

Do you imagine starting a set in Duck Hunt? Me neither.

We regularly strike to Pokémon Stadium 2 and I can't imagine life without it.