Dual Stick Mechanics and how it affects Grab Breaking, Momentum Cancelling, and SDI

[Isatis]

[yt]HKVWkbSMTvI[/yt]​

Reserved for Q&A

 

[DeLux]

Video will be coming shortly

Bionic Sonic Scuba Steve Now on Blast

 

[SFA Smiley]

Ah really interesting stuff =)

 

[Flayl]

So what part of QCSDI says you can't use the dual stick method that was already shown a long time ago by KPrime?

 

[DeLux]

I mean, if you're able to humanly input a V formation on the C-Stick at the speed necessary to QCSDI with this method than by all means have at it.

For the normal people that want to minimize the amount of human inputs per in-game output and streamline the process, you'll get equal distance via this method. However, in order to achieve equal distance, you might end up skewed in direction slightly, but that skewed angle is probably negligible when weighed against the easy of input.

Edit: In theory, it wouldn't even end up skewed in direction too largely assuming frame perfection (the difference caused by the cstick length vs the control stick length of actual SDI input against the multiplier) but what I say largely holds true since it's humanly impossible to achieve frame perfection of this nature in terms of speed necessary for either method.

 

[Flayl]

I can't find where KPrime got this quote from, anyone want to help me?

 

[Luigisama]

question for ISSDI

can it be used for Luigi?

 

[Yikarur]

of course lol

 

[Luigisama]

of course lol

ah ok then. Just wondering since I tried using it, but it doesn't seem to work since he slides so much.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

woo got it out there finally

also:

I can't find where KPrime got this quote from, anyone want to help me?

it was originally posted in the smash lab, so you cant view it

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You guys can go to hell. I was the one that first brought up the discussion of using the shield and c-stick as an option select and I don't even get any credit. I also remember Delux arguing with me that the back roll option select wouldn't work since you Di away from your opponent. I knew he was wrong

 

[DeLux]

Uhhhhhhh...

What you wrote and what I wrote are different scenarios.

You advocated using the Cstick only from shield as written in the OP of your post, which I commented would move you away from your opponent (which it does) for the back roll. If you do it using Dual sticking with analog forward plus cstick back, you also roll backwards, but the net movement of cstick against the analog stick is in the favor of the analog stick.

I also mentioned how to get more ISSDI forward in comparison the Cstick forward only roll method you advocated in your thread and why it works due to dual sticking.

And to be fair, KPrime's ISSDI > Grab video brought up the option-select well before you did Jebus, sorry. We had be doing research into this well before you brought up your thread. I was able to determine that what you listed wasn't ideal because of the research we already did.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I said to use it as you walk up to the opponent. You can't walk up to the opponent without holding the control stick forward. Also, the grab video didn't even bring up the option select. The option select doesn't even come out if you are holding the control stick in the same direction you are going to move your C-stick to (example: holding control stick forward and hitting c-stick forward which is what K prime was doing)

Edit: Your information isn't even correct. Moving the control stick forward and hitting c-stick up always causes the character to grab.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Righteous. Glad to see this up and posted!

 

[-LzR-]

Jebus ruined another fantastic thread >_>

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why? Because I'm right?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Just don't feed the troll I guess

 

[-LzR-]

But he is sooo hungry

 

[rPSIvysaur]

feed him in a bad thread then

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How am I trolling?

 

[Cassio]

Very nice.

I can't find where KPrime got this quote from, anyone want to help me?

That quote and the dual stick method youre mentioning are pretty much exactly what this thread is about. I think most of the practical information aside from the option selects could be drawn from Prime's videos, its just nice to have the theory and the generalized description in a good write up. Only thing thats odd is how long this took.

I said to use it as you walk up to the opponent. You can't walk up to the opponent without holding the control stick forward. Also, the grab video didn't even bring up the option select. The option select doesn't even come out if you are holding the control stick in the same direction you are going to move your C-stick to (example: holding control stick forward and hitting c-stick forward which is what K prime was doing)

Think he meant they started researching it soon after primes video. You just couldnt see it because you werent in the smash lab.

YMoving the control stick forward and hitting c-stick up always causes the character to grab.

This however, if true would be nice to add under the shield SDI section.

In theory, the ideal method would be to hold the analog stick 10-45 degrees angled from a cardinal direction while tapping the C-Stick in the direction that is 10-45 degrees away from the same complimentary angle in the opposite direction.

This probably needs to be reworded.

 

[Spelt]

I saw k prime talk about this awhile ago, and how it's super easy to get out of pikachu's dsmash with this, and i've been using it for general SDI ever since. Good to know I can use it for breaking grabs and momentum cancelling as well!

 

[DeLux]

I'll note certain changes shortly

As Jebus pointed out, the way I wrote the Tap forward + Cstick Up ISSDI option -select (originally written hold forward + Cstick Up) essentially repeated that two different inputs lead to the same option. I changed Hold to Tap, and that should effectively correct what I intended to say. I went ahead and credited him as such. However, he's incorrect in saying that Kprime's video only advocated Cstick Forward + analog stick forward as an option select (as 1. that doesn't work and 2. that's not what kprime put). We started research on this April 12, 2011. We then sorted through a lot of technical information (mostly from Magus) on how things worked over the next few months. The semi-final release thread had been waiting on a video for a few weeks. Last night, Directors Yikarur and myself went through and made some final edits before putting through a quick release.

I take credit for the mishap; I pushed hard for a public release without accompanying video so we could get the information out there. Just one of those scenarios where I knew what I meant, but it denoted something else.

I hope everyone can draw something useful from the rest of the information.

 

[Cassio]

Confused about the option select stuff now, but I guess a video will clear it up. Still nice to have all the info though.

 

[DeLux]

I'll give it a day and if more people are confused, I will attempt to rewrite it to be more clear

 

[Ishiey]

Very happy to see something like this out there, as well as potential applications instead of just information.

Question: I use the wiimote + nunchuck, with the d-pad set to smashes so that it functions like a c-stick. Am I still able to get diagonal c-stick inputs by pushing two directions on the d-pad at the same time (ex. up + left)? Since c-sticking only registers for one frame it'd have to be pretty precise, or at least that's my guess assuming that it's even possible. Idk, wiichuck sucks -_- but I'm used to it and never really had anyone translate how c-stick input mechanics work over to the d-pad, so any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Isatis]

wow, I specifically said not to release this because it'll be confusing to people without the video <_<

oh well

 

[Mr. Doom]

Maybe that's a sign.

 

[BSP]

Good work Smash Lab

 

[DeLux]

Very happy to see something like this out there, as well as potential applications instead of just information.

Question: I use the wiimote + nunchuck, with the d-pad set to smashes so that it functions like a c-stick. Am I still able to get diagonal c-stick inputs by pushing two directions on the d-pad at the same time (ex. up + left)? Since c-sticking only registers for one frame it'd have to be pretty precise, or at least that's my guess assuming that it's even possible. Idk, wiichuck sucks -_- but I'm used to it and never really had anyone translate how c-stick input mechanics work over to the d-pad, so any help would be much appreciated.

I have no idea what the ramifications would be of wiimote nunchuck lol. I imagine it would still have the snap back effect, but I don't know if you'd be able to do non cardinal cstick inputs, which would hamper your ability to DSDI towards cardinal directions.

Let me do some testing and I'll get back to you though. Anything now would just be speculation on my part.

 

[Roller]

hmmmm

This is interesting...

 

[teluoborg]

About grab breaking I heard that the Cstick had to be returned to neutral before recording another input.
Is it true or does rotating the Cstick work ?

Awesome job btw.

 

[DeLux]

You must reset the C-Stick to neutral before it can be used again. Rotating it does not work.

 

[-LzR-]

This thread is really awesome. Should really help everyone who wants to improve with DI mechanics.

 

[teluoborg]

So that means that the perfect grab mashing should be something like
1-hold the analog in a direction
2-tap repeatedly the C stick in another direction
3-mash other buttons while you return the C stick to neutral

Is it good or am I missing something ?

 

[B.A.M.]

Damn. It finally was unveiled loooll. Good Labs of the Smash. Hope to see some applications from peeps soon.

 

[Ripple]

wow, I specifically said not to release this because it'll be confusing to people without the video <_<

oh well

Christmas came early!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

wow, I specifically said not to release this because it'll be confusing to people without the video <_<

oh well

Maybe this is our way of saying, "get the video gone"?

I feel obligated to make my own right up of some cool mechanic now. :I

 

[Luigi player]

Nice, waiting for the vid.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Excellent work. I am really impressed that you guys/girls can find all this awesome information about the game! Keep up the awesome work!

This is way too useful and important to miss it, so I'm taking notes while I'm learning & playing. Hopefully with this, I will be able to introduce these techniques/tricks/information to my daily base-gameplay.

Thanks!