DLC Dominance: The Future of Smash 4?

Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta: the three most recent DLC characters. They join Ryu, Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo as DLC in Smash 4 and the last additions to the roster. The latest three DLC characters already have been making splashes in events, and pros and new players alike are praising their strengths. How strong are these characters really? Do they have the chance to overthrow Sheik and dominate the game? Let's take a look at the data.

Cloud​

Cloud came out of the gate running after his release. Komorikiri was able to take 3rd place at the Sumabato NicoNico Qualifiers shortly after his release. According to the Smashboards Ranking System, within one week of Cloud's release he was the number one character seen within the top 16 and the third most-seen character, taking first in only one week.

Bayonetta​

Last night, Nairo had his worst Smash 4 placement ever as well as his worst overall placement ever since Apex 2010. The harbinger of this was Salem's Bayonetta, who sent him to the loser's bracket.

Bayonetta has already begun to make a serious impact in Japan, with Komorikiri winning Sumabato 7 and Nyanko taking 5th at Umebura 21. Even on the lighter side of things, Pink Fresh has already taken a first-place finish at Xanadu using Bayonetta. The ranking system on Smashboards shows that within a week of her release, she is already the 4th most-seen character within the top 16 of tournaments.

Corrin​

Here is the number that may be more surprising. Corrin has taken more first-place finishes than Bayonetta since release according to the Smashboards rankings. These placements are tied with Cloud for first as well. While many discuss the power of Witch Time, Corrin seems to be taking more events in general. However, Bayonetta's first-place results seem to be at much more stacked tournaments, so they can't be counted out.

Other DLC​

So were the older DLC characters just as popular at release? While Ryu made many waves at the start, he never showed the levels of dominance or even popularity of the other DLC characters, though he is ranked 4th on the first Official Smash 4 Back Room Tier List. Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo also never saw similar surges. Currently, the most-seen character in the top 16 as of the latest patch is Ryu at 18th, and Lucas, Roy, and Mewtwo only have 3 first-place finishes combined.

Questions To Be Answered​

This makes for an interesting question: is the success we are seeing from Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta just a surge in popularity bringing them forward? Looking at the past data, even with many people trying out DLC characters as their new mains, none took hold quite so strongly as the newest ones. Will they lose their hold once people learn the matchups?

Could Bayonetta overtake Sheik? Possibly, but she has a long way to go. Sheik is 8 places higher than Bayonetta when it comes to first-place wins, and Sheik still outranks Bayonetta for top 16 placements. While it's not impossible that she could rise or at least become one of the largest tournament threats, trying to take Sheik's number one place on the tier list may be tough.

Will we possibly see more DLC characters in the top 8 than base characters soon? It seems unlikely, but not altogether impossible if the amount of top placements for Corrin, Cloud, and Bayonetta keeps climbing. However, do not underestimate adaptation: Marss was able to take down Salem with Zero Suit Samus in a best of five later in the same tournament Nairo fell. It could just be that people need to learn the matchup.

How do the readers feel about the newest DLC characters' splash in tournaments? Sound off in the comments below, and be sure to check out the Smashboards Rankings System: much useful data can be found there!

 

However do not underestimate adaptation: Marss was able to take down Salem with Zero Suit Samus in a best of five later in the same tournament Nairo fell. It could just be that people need to learn the matchup.

I feel like this is the most important line right now.

Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta, are only brand new. Not just new, but they actually have unique mechanics that nobody else has.

People figure them out overtime and then they won't look as good anymore. The thing about them is that while the top tiers have very little in the way of obvious weaknesses, and have easily accessible strengths, Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta have VERY obvious weaknesses, and their strengths take a bit more work to really get a use out of (especially Bayonetta).

People just need time to get used to them, then they won't be as dominant. There's also the fact at, in the initial hype of DLC, people SPECIFICALLY want to use these characters to show them off.

 

I knew for a fact that Bayonetta was gonna be top tier. She has basically everything. lol

 

 

I feel that the DLC characters will continue to conquer tournaments!

 

1) Cloud has been out for long enough that his appearances in tournament based on him just being new have died down. Him showing up in tournaments by now just mean that he's a viable character. I personally havn't seen too much of Corrin, but I think his presence in tournaments will probably end up dying down. Bayonetta may end up being used more because her cheap-ass combos can ruin the fun for everyone on the roster. At the same time, however, Bayonetta may end up seeing less usage if people adapt to her, and if stopping her combos becomes easier.

2) Personally, I don't think so, but it all really depends on how Bayonetta develops. I personally view her as #4 on the tier list. She can't compete with how fast Sheik is, may have a hard time with Luma, and lacks a lot of options that ZZS has. However, if her rediculous combos become easier to pull off, than she may raise to the #2 spot. Development vs adaptation is a strong, everlasting battle.

3) I hope not, mostly because I hate the DLC characters we got with only a few exceptions. That said, I think we can expect to see mostly Bayonetta hitting the Top 8 mark, with characters like Cloud getting in every now and then. Corrin I doubt will be getting Top 8 at large tournaments any time soon, even with that ludicrous counter.

4) I personally highly dislike seeing these characters in tournament, simply because I don't like seeing them in a Smash Brothers game. I can't speak for how common I think they'll be in tournaments later down the line, however, as people can and will always adapt.

 

That's under the assumption that this game is balanced...

 

That's under the assumption that this game is balanced...

No fighting game has ever been balanced, yet people have adapted all the same. Even if this game WAS poorly balanced, that's no reason not to adapt.

 

That's under the assumption that this game is balanced...

It's not horribly unbalanced though.

Top tiers high tiers and mid tiers are viable

 

That's under the assumption that this game is balanced...

Nice John, bro.

Ugggh, this tier list, it grinds my gears, "hey, you know that character that we never ever see in Top 8 or something? Let's make him fourth"....

 

No fighting game has ever been balanced, yet people have adapted all the same. Even if this game WAS poorly balanced, that's no reason not to adapt.

I'm not saying adaptation is impossible, my problem is that people simply throw that word around like Sm4sh has absolutely no balance problems and that's it's just related to their "lack of skill". People aren't willing to admit that Sm4sh is clearly unbalanced, so instead what they do is say "adapt", or "git gud", or "nice john" to anyone who points out the game's flaws. Adaptation can only take you so far before you realize that some characters are simply better than others.

 

It could just be that people need to learn the matchup.

NO THATS RIDICULOUS DLC PEEPLE 2 STRUNG!11!

As plenty of people here have already pointed out, adaptation will be important for the new guys, especially Bayonetta.

her cheap-*** combos

Bruh, you can DI out of almost everything she has. Even side-b>up-b>side-b>side-b, the cookie cutter Bayo combo.

 

Salem reks Nairo with Bayonetta.
Salem revealed in the most recent episode of RWBY.... That cant be a coincidence...

 

Nairo got a low placement for going mostly bayonetta.

New DLC, mostly looking at Cloud/Bayonetta ATM, does seem to be making a difference recently.

I'm more so interested in development in the future to see what happens with how players learn it better.

 

no pay to win jokes in the comments
smh

 

These 3 characters are really good, but they're not unbeatable either nor are they gonna be overly dominant in the metagame. We also have to remember that Corrin and Bayonetta have only been out for less than 2 weeks, though Cloud has already proven himself to be really solid.

As for Nairo's placement, it was because he mostly went Bayo in the tournament, and no one has fully adapted to the matchup yet.

Salem reks Nairo with Bayonetta.
Salem revealed in the most recent episode of RWBY.... That cant be a coincidence...

Here's my like for that RWBY reference.

 

If their part of the reason Sma4sh's competive scene keeps going in the future I'm all for it. Good to see them high on the list if most used characters regardless.

 

I think Nintendo didn't want to make the dlc characters bad because they want you to buy them and rep other developers games well. both parties benefit from a notable dlc character

 

To be 100% honest, I'd rather see Bayonetta at the top of the tier list than Shiek.

Ignoring her "cookie-cutter combo" as I've seen it called, which can be DI'd out of with relative ease, I see Bayonetta as Smash 4's equivalent of Melee Fox, in that she's pretty damn hard to play well at higher levels, but once you get to that point, she's deadly.

I mean, not to say Shiek's pathetically easy to play, but I don't think her skill ceiling's as high as Bayonetta's.

But hey, that's just my opinion; I could be completely wrong for all I know.

 

I'm definitely surprised with the success of Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta, and Corrin. We never seen these characters in a smash game before, so it was anybody's guess just how good they could be. Even after everybody stops whining and starts learning the matchup, I expect all four of them to be dangerous fighters in the years to come.

And it's nice to see new characters taking these top spots. Did we suddenly start enjoying the sight of sheik dittos? It's certainly a better scenario then one, two, or all of them being completely unviable. It gives me hope that future iterations of smash will have equally interesting characters that are well suited to a competitive environment. Could you imagine what a real Ganondorf would be like with his own moveset and style?

 

I really like how diverse this is making the top and high tier, and the matchups arent as bad as melee where the top 7 just destroy the rest of the cast (we got a top 25 & shiek now).
However, i dont see Corrin staying. The character has very limited potential, especially on FD. Side B tricks are good, but we're probs gonna see more cloud and less Corrin or about the same as time goes on.

Bayonetta is going to kill everything and I'm pretty sure i dont even care anymore.

 

The "she came a week ago, people don't know the MU yet" could go both ways in my opinion. While people don't know how to efficiently fight her, Bayonetta players don't know how to efficiently use her. The fact that she has placed and even won multiple tournamets with little optimization makes me worried, and what worries me the most is the fact that you have to pay 15+ dollars to learn the matchup.

 

We could believe that Bayonetta is broken. OR we could just follw Gimr's word on Bayonetta.
"Bayonetta is NOT a good character"-Gimr 2016 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

Could you imagine what a real Ganondorf would be like with his own moveset and style?

no
It's been 15 years with the same Ganondorf.
To be honest, my opinion is that he's alright how he is, I would still like to see his Sword Warlock Punch be official though. Or heck, just change his some of his moves for Sword Swings, like his F-Air or Jab.

 

I see it kind of going both ways. The Corrin and Bayonetta subforums had been labbing the characters frame data, options, and (predicted) combos before the DLC even dropped, and could be argued that they, as a result, had an early edge leading up to the players getting the characters and playing them extensively.

What is kind of frustrating, though, is seeing people undermine skill just because people play those characters and perceive them as "braindead" and some "easybake combo" characters that take no skill to play. As if Pink Fresh is some noob, amiright? Smh.

I think people need to try a little harder learning what these characters can do on a basic level. I spent the last week since the DLC dropped to learn everything I can on these characters and surface level combos and things to watch out for. I'm not afraid of some one week characters, but I do, however, need to keep an eye out for things so as not to get the mess beat out of me from a lack of knowledge.

Now on that note, I'm gonna stop blabbing and actually play the freaking game here.

 

These three specific characters are super brand new and have silly gimmicks that people aren't entirely used to, yet. I think Cloud's the only one that can power through really well (insane frame data and traps with N-Air/U-Air). Not to mention, their popularity does help the fact that everyone and their mother are using them.

 

Remember how Roy was considered top-tier for a short while after his release? I'm thinking Bayo might suffer the same fate. She's great, with good combos and easy damage racking ability, but she's also got some huge problems that are easy to exploit (framedata on her smashes is awful).

I don't see Bayo staying top-tier once people figure out her tricks. High-tier, yes, but not top-tier.

 

Could you imagine what a real Ganondorf would be like with his own moveset and style?

I've imagined that since his debut in Melee.

A shame Sakurai will forever be too lazy to make Ganondorf anything besides Captain Falcon's grandpa.

 

The Future of Smash 4
SS
S

 

Am I the only one who thinks is still the best DLC character and is sinfully underplayed only because of how hard he is to learn?

 

They say Bayonetta's combos are all DI-able and once people figure how and where to DI it would make her far less viable. Corrin already does not have any combo's off of throws and not many outside of throws. But Cloud has been out for a while now and to be honest and is really putting in work. But hey thats just an opinion. A SMASHING OPINION. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

They say Bayonetta's combos are all DI-able and once people figure how and where to DI it would make her far less viable. Corrin already does not have any combo's off of throws and not many outside of throws. But Cloud has been out for a while now and to be honest and is really putting in work. But hey thats just an opinion. A SMASHING OPINION. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

lawl, two cookies for the "Smashing" and Game Theory references :D

 

I can honestly see Bayonetta making it somewhere between upper mid-tier and upper high-tier, Cloud's already high up in the tier list, and I feel that Corrin is in the same boat as Bayonetta. Only time will tell for sure whether or not that will hold water, but I just have a good feeling about their tier placement either way.

Could you imagine what a real Ganondorf would be like with his own moveset and style?

I don't know how you figured that this was the best place to mention that (you people are everywhere aren't ya). There are threads catered to such discussion, probably spearheaded by PhantomShab or something like that.

 

I don't know how you figured that this was the best place to mention that (you people are everywhere aren't ya). There are threads catered to such discussion, probably spearheaded by PhantomShab or something like that.

Because my entire post was about how well they did crafting new characters with unique mechanics and balancing them enough that they're viable in competitve play without being overwhelming. Ganondorf was the best example I could think of for the opposite scenario. No unique mechanics, polarized design, and this is his third opportunity in Smash Bros to have fixed these things.

Sorry if I struck a nerve somehow by bringing up Ganon. Trust me, I've got no interest at all in talking about him any further than I need to for this thread's topic.

 

Well, It'll be interesting to see where the meta goes. I don't think Corrin will be a lasting threat but I don't think he'll drop too far either. I also don't see Bayonetta as an amazing character. She has such heavy weaknesses to balance out her strengths that I would put her in top 15-20 as ZeRo said.

I think cloud has the most potential of all three of them. Best combo game, most power, etc. He will probably stay pretty dominant.

I'm also interested to see how the mid-tiers end up changing and evening out over time. Currently, Smash 4 has a gigantic mid-tier. Naturally, that's a side effect of the roster being so larger. However, I think the mid-tier will spread out as time goes on.

We have been seeing a lot of mid-tier characters rise up in the list over the past few months just because they got a little rep all of a sudden. Personally, I view mid-tier as a place for putting characters that just don't have enough rep yet. Then, when they get rep and people see what they can do, they either go into the "unviable" list or the "viable" list.

Anyway, I'm excited to see where players take the DLC characters as well as the whole roster. It feels like development of the metagame has really just begun.

 

Am the only one who thinks is still the best DLC character and is sinfully underplayed only because of how hard he is to learn?

I heard Ryu also has an insane mix of attributes, like being fast, has good combos, insane kill power (backed up by actually reliable setups) all while being heavy. His recovery is also nothing to call home about.

 

seems really good because of those mad combos and... well, the most balanced move in the game of course.

 

Maybe it's just me, but i personally feel like Bayonetta is overrated. Most of her play is largely due to her popularity. This reminds of when people were saying Roy was broken because they died to his f-smash at 60, or how some thought Lucas the new Diddy. We just have to wait for the meta to develop.

 

Maybe it's just me, but i personally feel like Bayonetta is overrated. Most of her play is largely due to her popularity. This reminds of when people were saying Roy was broken because they died to his f-smash at 60, or how some thought Lucas the new Diddy. We just have to wait for the meta to develop.

The more popular a character is the more their meta develops and the better they get. That's whats happening with Bayonetta

 

For the small price of $5.99.