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Developing Clouds feat. Mew2King, Tohfoo, & Zephyr


Cloud's announcement on November 12th, 2015 sent waves throughout the Smash community. What had long seemed like a pipe dream of seeing a Final Fantasy character inducted into the Smash Bros. series finally became a reality. The floodgates seemed to have truly opened for any and all characters to enter the fray of the Smash roster, as we had reached a total of 5 third-party characters with whom to do battle. After his official release on December 15th, thousands of players flocked to For Glory to try out the new character. Local tournaments around the country were flooded with new Clouds hoping to test his competitive viability. Now, with more than a month and a half of metagame development under his belt, where does Cloud stand within the roster? Is he a top-tier character viable on the national stage? Or does he have weaknesses that prevent him from attaining that status?

To find out, we've enlisted the help of three high-level players who have found success since adding Cloud into their roster. First up is DG | Tohfoo, who is power ranked in the MD/VA region largely due to his previous success as a Sheik main, winning several Anvil Smash tournaments as well as impressive finishes at Super Smash Con (65th) and The Big House 5 (33rd). However, after making the switch to Cloud this past month, Tohfoo has continued to impress by winning Anvil Smash #36 over Puppeh (also power ranked in MD/VA) in Grand Finals.

Anvil Smash #35 Singles: DG | Tohfoo takes on his teammate DG | BrianYDG
Stream owned by Dunham Gaming

While DG | Zephyr may not be power ranked like his teammate Tohfoo, he is making a strong case for why he should be come next PR season. A former Little Mac main from northern Virginia, he made the switch to Cloud on Christmas Eve and hasn't landed outside the top 10 since. His most recent notable placing was 7th place in a stacked Virginia regional called Top Of The Food Chain this past weekend. At the most recent Xanadu, Zephyr even managed to take a game off of the visiting PG | MVD before losing a close set in game 3.

S@X 133 Singles: Submediant vs. DG | Zephyr
Stream owned by VGBootCamp

Our third Cloud player needs no introduction. MVG Cog | Mew2King is a legend amongst the Smash community for his long-time dominance in multiple Smash games. He recently added Cloud to his repertoire and is already seeing success on the national level with him. At Genesis 3, M2K played an extremely close set with Dabuz, coming within one hit of winning the set in Game 2. This past weekend at PAX Arena, he took both ZeRo and ESAM to game 5 and finished in 9th place. If Mew2King continues to use Cloud at the national level, it’s well within reason to think that he’ll become the first Cloud to win a major tournament.

The Best Cloud vs. The Best Ike - Mew2King vs. Ryo - Exhibition
Stream owned by MVG

META-GAME SURPRISES
When the trailer for Cloud’s release dropped, many people were dismayed to find out that Cloud would not be released right away. During this month of Cloud downtime, many players began speculating what Cloud’s strengths and weaknesses would be. Trailer analysis videos popped up everywhere, and some got ludicrously in-depth. The move that garnered the most attention was Finishing Touch. After Cloud was finally released, the move was discovered to be even more powerful than some had thought. Tohfoo says: “His Finishing Touch has much more knockback than what I imagined. I thought it would start KO'ing around 80%, but nope. The earliest Finishing Touch kill I've gotten has been at 31%. I'm not complaining.” Mew2King saw Cloud for what he was from the beginning, saying: “To be honest, things went very closely as I expected. I expected him to be a dominant force in teams because of Finishing Touch (a weaker but portable rest basically), which went exactly as I expected.” Zephyr also noted Cloud’s proficiency in doubles, among other things, adding: “I didn't expect him to be viable when played defensively, and I didn't expect him to be so incredible in doubles matches.”

CLOUD’S BASIC COMPETITIVE STRATEGY

A Cloud main's basic strategy will typically revolve around the charging and implementation of his Limit Break moves. Zephyr says: “Personally, I play a patience-and-punish oriented Cloud. I use the Limit Charge to force the opponent to approach, and depending on the match-up, I work to either out-prioritize their attacks or punish unsafe approaches.” The sight and sound of a charging Limit Break can be like a ticking time-bomb to an opponent, and can cause less disciplined players to make the mistake of charging at a Cloud who can easily punish by quickly canceling Limit Charge. Once an opponent is in the air, Cloud has the advantage. As Tohfoo notes: “Cloud's toolset makes him extraordinarily dangerous below you. Two moves that really shine are his up air and Finishing Touch. His up air is one of the best in the game -- the hitboxes linger for a significantly long time, has huge range, the move can combo into itself, and it can also kill… An airdodge in the middle of being juggled could mean a Finishing Touch KO.”

Mew2King has a similar idea about the power of the Limit Break, although his strategies continue to evolve rapidly: “To be honest with you, I change this idea every day as I gain new experience, get new ideas, then accidentally forget old ideas, then remember my old ideas again. The thing is that I experiment so often, that I'm always changing what I'm doing, so my style is never always the same. However, one thing that always stays the same is that charging limit is important. If I have a limit, I run faster, fall faster, do combo strings better (such as up-air strings), can KO better, and can recover easier so I don't get gimped. Many advantages. However, if I have a limit at 0%, some characters can combo Cloud very hard, so perhaps having a 0% limit is not always the best option in some matchups. Besides this, spacing the sword is the general consistent concept of Cloud, similar to Melee Marth or Brawl Meta Knight. I stream Cloud a lot on MVG League’s Twitch.”

POSITION ON THE TIER LIST

All three of our players are basically in agreement on where Cloud’s position is on the tier list. Zephyr thinks: “I would put him in a low-to-mid top tier. Not quite at the level of Sheik/ZSS, but certainly up in that range.” Meanwhile, Tohfoo says: “I think Cloud is a top 10 character, at least. Sure, his recovery is very exploitable, but it's not nearly as bad as a lot of people make it seem to be. Also, his early kill potential alone puts him in high tier. He's quick, has good aerial mobility, has kill confirms, and has great hair. Definitely high tier.” Mew2King concurs: “I think he has potential to be top 10 in the game.”

According to 4BR’s recent tier list, the general Smash community has a similar idea of where Cloud shakes out, albeit slightly lower. This list places him in the low-high tier category alongside Villager and Ness.


MATCH-UP ADVANTAGES

According to our experts, Cloud has a large advantage against characters who lack mobility options. Mew2King says that Cloud’s ideal match-up is against “Slow characters, because he can run away from them and charge limit.” Zephyr echoes a similar statement to M2K, although he expands on the thought, saying: “Many of his moves come out quickly enough to beat many of their attacks, and his attacks have so much range that he can easily maintain a safe distance while pressuring the opponent.”

Typically, heavier characters that struggle in the neutral game will also struggle in the air. Tohfoo explains why this will only compound their problems: “Cloud can keep a character in the air better than most, and if he can exploit someone's lack of landing options, they're in for a doozy.” To sum up, opponents should look for more mobile characters when it comes time to face a Cloud in bracket.

MATCH-UP DISADVANTAGES

On the other side of the coin, Cloud seems to struggle against characters who can maintain constant pressure. Zephyr says “Cloud struggles most, I believe, against fast rush-down characters, particularly Fox, and Sheik. These characters can either overwhelm Cloud with a raw barrage of safe attacks, or juggle him into higher percents relatively easily.” Mew2King agrees that faster characters with good mobility can spell trouble for Cloud: “Limit becomes very difficult to charge. I have a theory that Fox/Falcon can do well vs Cloud because of their fast running speed, their good gimps vs Cloud, and Falcon also can up-B grab Cloud if he shields on a platform which is useful in the MU. Besides that, many top tiers are good against him like Sheik and Rosalina.” Interestingly, there’s one exception in particular that M2K noted: “He can beat Zero Suit effectively because he punishes a missed grab or missed up-B well.”

Tohfoo has a different theory about Cloud’s mis-matches: “Contrary to popular opinion, I think Cloud struggles against zoning characters. Cloud can camp and charge limit, but if he still can't get in with an active Limit Break, it really doesn't do him much good.” Mew2King says that one zoning character in particular has a strong match-up with Cloud: “R.O.B. beats Cloud. If Cloud has limit, R.O.B.'s down throw up-air combos way easier/longer/better, because of Cloud's fall speed increase, which can kill Cloud quickly.” Zoning characters have another factor that gives them the advantage in this match-up: “Characters with good projectiles can pressure Cloud extremely well off stage. Burning a jump or air-dodging could cost a stock without a Limit Break Climhazzard,” explains Tohfoo. This speaks to Cloud’s glaring weakness: his poor recovery. Zephyr points out that “Sheik and Pikachu in particular have a fairly easy time edge-guarding against Cloud.”

TOP CLOUD MAIN?

Both Zephyr and Tohfoo agree that Komorikiri is currently the top Cloud main, although Tohfoo admits that Mew2King is close: “I know Mew2King has done really well recently as Cloud, but I haven't gotten a chance to see much of it yet. I'll probably be an M2K Cloud fan soon enough, haha.” If you ask the man himself, Mew2King will tell you he’s already there: “I think me/Komorikiri are the two best Clouds overall.”

Wombo Wednesday #21: Komorikiri vs. Ranai
Stream owned by Smash Scu

NATIONAL VIABILITY

Our experts all agree that it is only a matter of time before Cloud breaks through and wins a national. When asked if Cloud can win a national, Zephyr says: “Absolutely. He's only been out for a short period of time, and people will still learn more about how best to play him (disregarding any future buffs/nerfs). He has the tools he needs; it's just up to the players to use them to their best advantage.” Tohfoo was even more emphatic in his answer: “Although he hasn't won any majors or infiltrated a top 8 yet, players like Komorikiri and M2K have performed exceptionally well against other top players with Cloud. I think it's only a matter of time before we see a Cloud in a finals set of a major tournament.” Mew2King agrees, although with one caveat: “Yes, he has what it takes. I think he is significantly worse than Sheik, but he's definitely better than most characters without question.”

---

Special thanks to all three of our Cloud players for contributing their thoughts and insights to this article. You can catch Tohfoo & Zephyr almost every week at the Anvil Smash weeklies in Richmond, VA. Zephyr is also a frequent competitor at the Xanadu weeklies. They will both be attending Glitch and Pound 2016 as well.

Mew2King is looking forward to a strong performance as Cloud at Shots Fired 2 in March, where he's hoping to do well against a stacked bracket of international competitors.

To stay up to date with these players, give them a follow on their various social media sites below.

MVG Cog | Mew2King:
Personal Twitter
Cognitive's Twitter

MVG's Twitter
Personal YouTube
MVG's YouTube
Personal Twitch
MVG's Twitch
Shots Fired 2 Event Page
Personal Facebook
Public Figure Facebook Page

DG | Tohfoo:
Personal Twitter
Personal Twitch
Dunham Gaming YouTube
Dunham Gaming Website


DG | Zephyr
Personal Twitter
Dunham Gaming YouTube
Dunham Gaming Website
 

Comments

I hope Cloud will be nerfed in this upcoming patch. He is too good and has some overpowered tools in his kit. Sigh...
 
I hope Cloud will be nerfed in this upcoming patch. He is too good and has some overpowered tools in his kit. Sigh...
I hope you're joking , Cloud does have a nice spacing game, strong hits and some which can ignor lag but bruh, he is pretty fine to me.

Just because a character seems annoying on forglory that doesn't mean he should be nerf!


Btw Nice article!
 
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I hope Cloud will be nerfed in this upcoming patch. He is too good and has some overpowered tools in his kit. Sigh...
He's not too good. That would be the female blondes at top. He'll probably have a few things change, but more than likely stay the same. Maybe you need to play with characters that have better zoning or rush down because that is what giving him trouble right now.
 
Just boost the bottom tiers before making any nerfs. I'd much rather see buffs. Prays for Samus Jiggs and Zelda!
 
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Great article STOB. Lets go M2K!
Shots Fired 2 is sure to get really exciting with these players around.
 
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I'm not buying that cloud is a top tier yet. The match with Mr. R and Komorikiri showed me that Cloud's recovery can be exploited more optimally with time.

:150:
 
I'm actually writing a Cloud guide. Its taking me a long time to finish it due to life and stuff.

This is really helpful stuff.

but I fear Cloud may not be top 10 in the afternoon.
 
I disagree with Mew2king that Rosa beats Cloud. I think that MU is even or in Cloud's favor. Cloud's sword outranges everything Rosa can do, and he has no problem killing Luma. And her light weight means that Limit specials kill her extremely early.
 
The thing that will keep Cloud out in the future is being easily punished on some attacks, having some slow frame data to average out his faster frame data, bad meteors, no combo throws outside D-Throw > F-Tilt/Cross Slash and a terrible recovery.

I don't think he'll be top tier for long. Like all sword fighters, he's just going to get lower and lower on the list, and he's going to be hit with the Palutena effect. Considered good at first, but once those very hefty weaknesses start settling in, it becomes a disaster.
 
Good to see M2K has finally found a character he likes in Smash4! Hope he continues to do well. :drflip:
 
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The thing that will keep Cloud out in the future is being easily punished on some attacks, having some slow frame data to average out his faster frame data, bad meteors, no combo throws outside D-Throw > F-Tilt/Cross Slash and a terrible recovery.

I don't think he'll be top tier for long. Like all sword fighters, he's just going to get lower and lower on the list, and he's going to be hit with the Palutena effect. Considered good at first, but once those very hefty weaknesses start settling in, it becomes a disaster.
What are you talking about? Palutena without customs was never considered very good.
 
What are you talking about? Palutena without customs was never considered very good.
And Cloud will be hit with the Palutena effect.
Palutena, very early on, was considered one of the best characters. When people got to see her weaknesses and see how bad she actually was, she was considered pretty bad.

Cloud might have the same thing.
Both characters have good mobility and power, but mediocre attacks, combo ability (don't reference Cloud's Juggling U-Air) and some bad frame data or hitboxes on attacks.
 
Link has a lot of strategies (having a positive MU against Cloud) against Cloud. Just make sure to let that sword attack come out first and keep Cloud off stage, then perform an N-Air before Cloud can get Limit.

Ganondorf is just as simple as an F-Tilt at 50% damage on Cloud.
 
Link has a lot of strategies (having a positive MU against Cloud) against Cloud. Just make sure to let that sword attack come out first and keep Cloud off stage, then perform an N-Air before Cloud can get Limit.

Ganondorf is just as simple as an F-Tilt at 50% damage on Cloud.
I don't really like Link... But Ganon is alright.
 
Link has a lot of strategies (having a positive MU against Cloud) against Cloud. Just make sure to let that sword attack come out first and keep Cloud off stage, then perform an N-Air before Cloud can get Limit.

Ganondorf is just as simple as an F-Tilt at 50% damage on Cloud.
Are there any strategies for greninja, falco, meta knight, or lucina?
 
Haven't been watching a lot of M2K in Smash 4. He was my favorite Melee fighter, it would probably be fun to watch him again.

Haven't had the chance to play many good Cloud players, or even practiced against him. 1v1, I feel like I can handle Cloud A-OK but the guy is bonkers in doubles. Every time there has been a Cloud in any doubles I played, he'd be a way bigger threat than the other player. I don't think he needs a nerf, to be honest. Just gotta keep a cool head and know how to punish him.
 
The absolute worst thing I can see Nintendo doing is nerfing Clouds Uair and finding a way to nerf Finishing Touch in doubles. I can see Uair taking a huge nerf and still being great move, so it's nothing to be worried about, really. Let's hope he doesn't get touched, though.
 
Link has a lot of strategies (having a positive MU against Cloud) against Cloud. Just make sure to let that sword attack come out first and keep Cloud off stage, then perform an N-Air before Cloud can get Limit.

Ganondorf is just as simple as an F-Tilt at 50% damage on Cloud.
The Link/Cloud MU is more or less even since Link isn't that mobile and has worse frame data, but he makes up for it by being a zoner and hitting hard, as well as having a field day edge guarding Cloud.

And lol, the Cloud MU for Ganon is terrible. Cloud has amazing, massively disjointed aerials. Not only that, but he has amazing mobility. It would be almost impossible for Ganon to touch Cloud in neutral if he plays safe. It doesn't matter how powerful a character's moves are if they can't land them.
 
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I'm actually writing a Cloud guide. Its taking me a long time to finish it due to life and stuff.

This is really helpful stuff.

but I fear Cloud may not be top 10 in the afternoon.
I've looked you up and can't find much information on you. Hold off on writing a guide until you're doing well in major tournaments. Then when you have that intuition and experience going into your guide we will really get something worth reading. With m2k already covering cloud as much as he does we will have much more information from that than what your guide will cover.

To expand on this and address anyone else trying to write guides, hear me out. There is a trend on smashboards where people try to write guides before proving that they're good at the game and worth listening to. Don't be one of those people. Get good first and then make the guide.
 
The Link/Cloud MU is more or less even since Link isn't that mobile and has worse frame data, but he makes up for it by being a zoner and hitting hard, as well as having a field day edge guarding Cloud.

And lol, the Cloud MU for Ganon is terrible. Cloud has amazing, massively disjointed aerials. Not only that, but he has amazing mobility. It would be almost impossible for Ganon to touch Cloud in neutral if he plays safe. It doesn't matter how powerful a character's moves are if they can't land them.
Well, Link's aerials are about better than Cloud's in frame data and strength either by how fast they come out (F-Air goes to Link), their power (F-Air, N-Air and U-Air go to Link), or how long they're active (all of Link's aerials, in this case, beat Cloud's). On the ground, all of Link's smash attacks trump Cloud on how fast they come out, and so does Link's Spin Attack. Cloud wins the tilt battle and jab battle, as well as grab speed battle, but Link wins the throw follow-up and the edge-guarding potential, as well as recovery.

Link also beats Cloud by how fast he can hit Cloud with projectiles, as well as follow ups, and no amount of Limit is going to prepare Cloud for Link at all.

As for Ganondorf vs Cloud, no, it's not as bad as you think. Ganondorf can actually get into Cloud's defenses and actually punish him; if Cloud goes for Cross Slash or Limit CS, Ganondorf will Wizard's Foot as a punish on block. Cloud's mobility still can't help him if he ends up using Dash Attack against Ganondorf, which gives the latter a free grab or F-Tilt.

Yeah, Cloud has disjoints, but again, his Smash Attacks aren't much better than Ganondorf's, and if Cloud slides into Ganondorf on shield, Cloud may have to say goodbye to a stock. Also, Ganondorf's D-Spec can mix up with Cloud's U-Air for a potential stock at ~60% damage if Cloud goes for vertical kills, and Ganondorf just outright negates Cloud if Cloud is at 30%+ damage near an edge, which can and will happen.

Cloud and Ganondorf could be even, but Link and Cloud are 60:40 Link favor.
 
I've looked you up and can't find much information on you. Hold off on writing a guide until you're doing well in major tournaments. Then when you have that intuition and experience going into your guide we will really get something worth reading. With m2k already covering cloud as much as he does we will have much more information from that than what your guide will cover.

To expand on this and address anyone else trying to write guides, hear me out. There is a trend on smashboards where people try to write guides before proving that they're good at the game and worth listening to. Don't be one of those people. Get good first and then make the guide.
^^^

Very true. I was thinking if I had a glorious amount of free time, I would make a Melee Mewtwo guide (or at least more advice on what you should do if you're playing him in tournament), but I haven't won enough games or have done crap to do anything with Mewtwo in actual tournaments, so i'd be a bad idea to make a guide since it's not from a professional perspective.

I'm sorry, it just needs to be more announced since I see one too many guides from inexperienced players that have a rather average rating and only have a basic explanation of things.
 
The matches posted here are giant jokes. I can't believe you're using Xanadu and Anvil Smash as good examples of :4cloud: use. Pls stop.
 
Nintendo will likely not touch Cloud except for possible changing the range on Side-B. In non-competitive four-player matches that has the pottenial to be almost as bad as Goku's Kamehameha in Super Smash Flash 2 0.8B was.
 
I've looked you up and can't find much information on you. Hold off on writing a guide until you're doing well in major tournaments. Then when you have that intuition and experience going into your guide we will really get something worth reading. With m2k already covering cloud as much as he does we will have much more information from that than what your guide will cover.

To expand on this and address anyone else trying to write guides, hear me out. There is a trend on smashboards where people try to write guides before proving that they're good at the game and worth listening to. Don't be one of those people. Get good first and then make the guide.
I don't need to be a well known. This is just a intermediate players guide, by a intermediate player. I can see things from your point of view though.
 
The matches posted here are giant jokes. I can't believe you're using Xanadu and Anvil Smash as good examples of :4cloud: use. Pls stop.
It's not like there's a plethora of clouds with results thus far, he included m2k and komorikiri and they are the best (so far). Relax joe~
 
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