Desync Extender Technique (New?) aka Positional Desync

[IC-Rambler]

This is something I discovered myself while messing around with ICs. I'm almost certain it's been discovered before, since it's very simple. However, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere and I've never seen it implemented into any game. If it's been discovered, it's probably forgotten or very underutilized. After toying around with it for quite some time, I've come to believe that it has some legit applications in a tournament setting. The below is a semi-detailed breakdown of what I've discovered. I've also made a mediocre demonstration video here: https://youtu.be/O2Rym69ZL4M


Necessary Desync Principles:


To understand the desync extender and how it works, one must first understand the basic principles of IC desyncs.


Common desyncs are initiated by spot dodges, rolls, grabs, and dash-dances. These all desync Nana because Nana behaves differently then Popo in these examples. In spot dodges, rolls, and grabs, Nana has a unique, large window to buffer an attack, while Popo does not. In dash-dance desyncs, Nana does not have the ability to pivot, while Popo does. Desyncs all come from the various differences between Nana and Popo.


These desyncs provide the “initiator,” then the player can continue to stagger inputs to extend the soft desync indefinitely.


Lets say the player wants to set up a chain of ice blocks. He rolls back and buffers an ice block for Nana. This is the initiator. Then while Nana is in her ice block animation the player shoots another ice block with Popo. This continues the desync from the initiator, but it not referred to as a “desync.” A “desync” is traditionally used to describe a method of initiating these desynced chains. For my purposes, I prefer to specify these as a “desync initiator."


What is the Desync Extender?:


I explain all this to make an important distinction. A “Desync Extender” is not a “desync initiator” like the nana-buffers and dash-dance desyncs. However, the desync extender does keep the Ice Climbers desynced. It can be intiated through the desync initiators mentioned, as it can be entered into at any point when the ice climbers are in different states of activity. Instead of inputing an attack to extend a soft desync, the player simply inputs a direction to run, extending the desync indefinitely by putting the climbers into seperate neutral positions (run and walk.)


Note:

When a character is running, I refer to this as the “run state.”

When a character is walking, I refer to this as the “walk state.”

Simple? Cool, lets go on.


Let's get to the point. The desync extender is very simple to set up, and easy to temporarily maintain. Essentially, the desync extender is the state of the ICs when they are both moving together, yet only one of them is in the run state while the other is in the walk state. This means they are both mobile, but one IC has access to his/her entire grounded moveset.


How to do the Desync Extender:


Initiation is simple. First, preform a desync initiator. Preform an attack with Nana. Let's say you've preformed an fsmash with Nana while Popo remains idle. Wait a moment for Nana's fsmash animation to take place. When it's nearly over, dash forwards with Popo. Nana should follow behind. If you timed it correctly, that's it. Popo is in run-state and Nana is in walk-state and you are using a desync extender. If you dash too quickly, then you will leave Nana behind completely. If you dash too late, Nana will have synced with you, and it will not have worked. The window is decently large, however.


Another way to initiate is with the dash-dance. First, start from neutral. Then preform a long dash forwards with Popo. Dash back, the dash forwards very quickly. This one's pretty finicky, but can be done consistently with practice. They way you know you've successfully done it is you will see Nana skid backwards (occasionally forwards), until she slowly develops into a walk animation. This initiation is situational, since it has a long start-up, but probably covers the most horizontal distance.


My theory on how this works: When the player dashes with Popo while Nana is busy, the running input is not buffered/given to Nana. The strange “force” that always attracts Nana to Popo kicks in while Nana enters into a walk. This drags Nana behind Popo while he runs, while keeping Nana in the walk-state.


The Reverse Desync Extender:


YOU CAN PREFORM A REVERSE DESYNC EXTENDER! Here, Nana will be in the run-state while Popo is in the walk-state. It can be initiated just like a normal desync, except that you have Nana dash forward while Popo is using a move. This desync is slower since it can't take advantage of the “force” that keeps Nana with Popo. Instead it's only as fast as Popo's walk. You can also initiate a reverse desync extender straight from a regular desync extender. There is a tech-heavy and complicated action you must preform to enter a reverse desync extender directly from a regular one: dash forwards. Yup lol. If you're dashing right, your control stick will already be on the right side, so quickly let it go to neutral, then snap it back to the right to dash with Nana and have Popo walk. You can do this action yet again to return back to the regular desync extender. While being slower, this definitely has it's own uses.


Examples and applications are shown in the video.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, happy climbing!

 

[941]

Isn't this an extension of a dash-dance desync? I don't think this is exactly new, but I'm impressed by all the work you've done to demonstrate the applications.

 

[IC-Rambler]

Isn't this an extension of a dash-dance desync? I don't think this is exactly new, but I'm impressed by all the work you've done to demonstrate the applications.

Thanks! Yes it's basically just doing the DD desync, but keeping the run going. It can also be entered into through any other desync, but the DD desync is just the one I used most often in the video. When I say I've never seen it implemented, I'm referring to the "extended" part of it lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah good write up but this is not new. Popo dashing while nana walks is the direct consequence of dash dash desync and the entire reason why it is useful.

 

[IC-Rambler]

Yeah good write up but this is not new. Popo dashing while nana walks is the direct consequence of dash dash desync and the entire reason why it is useful.

I'm very new, so a lot of the concepts are still a little jumbled up in my head lol. I wish people would implement stuff like this into actual matches a little more often though. I've been practicing with my friend a little, and whenever I can set up the grab-fsmash, all he can usually do is retreat. I can usually fsmash him if he hits popo away, and he can't dashdance around the fsmash since I can just charge it while popo ends his grab animation, so by the time the fsmash whiffs I have popo ready. He kinda has to bait fsmash and work around my grab at the same time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

People do this, but committing to a full run severely limits your options. Generally people do a dash dance pivot then immediately ice block or blizzard with nana which protects popo as he moves forward. Since youre new this doesn't really apply to the gameplay youre experiencing with your friends, but as you get more experience and go to tournaments you will understand.

 

[IC-Rambler]

You're probably right, I'll still write this down as situational and play with it a bit more.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah good write up but this is not new. Popo dashing while nana walks is the direct consequence of dash dash desync and the entire reason why it is useful.

I think Nana walking is actually distinct from the dash dance desynch. I don't know all the technical details, but here is my understanding:

The dash dance desynch works because Nana can't pivot. If you dash back and forth quickly in succession, Nana never actually turns around, and enters her full run animation while Popo is still in his initial dash state. If you delay the second dash slightly, Nana starts to turn around, and you get the "moonwalk" type thing shown in the video (it's no different than the first variation except that Nana enters her run animation facing backwards). In either case, you can dash cancel Blizzard (or anything else) with Nana while Popo is still in his initial dash state.

What he's doing here is even more delayed, allowing Nana to skid to a halt before starting the third dash. She receives the "dash" input while she's in lag, causing her to buffer a walk. Once she starts walking, I don't think it's even possible to "dash dance desynch" in the traditional sense, because Popo will have already terminated his initial dash state.

The way @ IC-Rambler demonstrated this technique (which is new to me, by the way) in the video looks a little bit "clunky" because he often lets Popo slide to a halt. For anything other than c-stick smashes, it's difficult to input a move for only Nana; using the A button results in dash attacks, Z results in dash grabs, and B results in side-B. If you dash cancel, however, I believe Popo will ignore anything input on the same frame as the crouch, so you can still input any move for Nana without going into his laggy halting animation, it just requires very good timing.

The other problem with this idea is that it actually takes a long time to set up. Unlike the dash dance desynch which uses a very quick, compact dash-back-and-forth, this requires a slow, deliberate dash dance that creates distance between you and Nana and makes her very vulnerable. However, I do like the idea of extending movement state desynchs. I was playing around with this and found that if you perform a traditional dash dance desynch, followed by a fox trot with Popo, Nana will stay close to you, but still enter the skid-halt animation and then transition into a walk. This means you can perform a traditional dash dance desynch and delay the onset of Nana's attack by any amount of time (although it's easiest to execute immediately after the fox trot, while Popo is still in the initial dash state and can't crouch). You also have the option of resynching without commiting to a full run animation after the fox trot.

I'm imagining this could be useful in situations where your opponent expects a Blizzard to follow the dash dance. If they fall back to stay out of Blizzard range, you can extend the desynch by foxtrotting forward. If they anticipate the Blizzard and attack from above, you might be able to catch them off guard by up smashing with Nana. I'll play around with it and see if it's actually fast enough to be useful in a real match.


I've seen Wobbles use the "reverse extender" to set up quick Nanapults. Since Nana won't respond to B or c-stick inputs you can Ice Block or f-smash with Popo and then Nanapult. The way he set it up was by rolling or spotdodging to desynch, then buffering a dash for Nana (which causes Popo to walk and Nana to dash ahead), but I guess it can also be done by dashing with Nana right as Popo exits lag from another move.

 

[IC-Rambler]

Wow Kyu Puff, thanks for the legit breakdown. You've obviously got a great understanding.

To avoid Popo sliding to a halt, you can wavedash out of it while Nana is attacking, though you still get the WD lag. The dash dance startup is slow, but there are faster ways. One safe way (but probably predictable), is to roll away then buffer jab with Nana, then quickly dash forwards with Popo. This method also keeps them closer together then a dash dance. A quick way to set up a reverse extender is with the pivot desync. Like, pivot popo-fsmash, dash forwards with Nana. Not sure how practice these methods are, though.

A question, what is a dash cancel and how do I do it?

 

[Kyu Puff]

A question, what is a dash cancel and how do I do it?

By dash cancel I just mean crouching to cancel the run animation. Normally you crouch with the intention of quickly performing a grounded move (or transitioning from run state back into initial dash). If you try to crouch during the initial dash animation, nothing happens--you can only crouch out of a full run. Also, if you input a move during the first frame of a dash cancel, you'll just go into the crouch animation (the other input is ignored, which is why you could potentially use it to perform any move with Nana out of a dash/walk).

 

[Smasher89]

Having them separated like that while having control is good, making punishes on getting hit possible, in example if popo gets hit by a jump in fox nair, nana(which would make it preferable to have nana in front) prob gank grab/dashgrab as long as you press the buttons in time for that, otherwise he would have to go very deep to avoid that.

Dash forward> dash back, jump and you will notice that the climbers get desynched in position, meaning you can easily cover most of a platform semi quickly by that method.

 

[Epic!]

I think Nana walking is actually distinct from the dash dance desynch. I don't know all the technical details, but here is my understanding:

I have thought of something avout the dash dance desynch (I didnt read the entire ICs threads so I don't know if it has already been discovered or anything) :

During the dash dance desynch, as showed in the video, Nana gets in this state of "trying to stop running" while Popo is in initial dash. Now knowing that, we also know that in the "trying to stop running" state, the only 3 things you can do are crouching, jumping and turn around (and get the long a** turnaround animation that you get when you miss the dash dance). You CANNOT do any other stuff in this state. We also know that during the initial dash, you cannot crouch. So the reason why the Dash Dance Desynch Blzzard works is because you actually make Nana Crouch (cancel) her run while Popo cannot. You can actually do this with any attack as long as you input a Crouch, this includes smashes with C-Stick and Ice Blocks. Yes you can actually make Nana shoot an Ice Block first during the Dash Dance Desynch.

When you try to input an Attack with Popo after the initial Dash (and Nana trying to stop running), only Popo will do the attack because Nana is in the State mentionned above. This is why a lot of people I have seen think you cannot DD Desynch with an Ice Block (or that Popo will be the one who does it). As mentionned above, you have to make Nana Crouch for a very brief moment first. You can do this just by flicking the Control Stick Down.

Knowing and understanding all that, you can come up with the silliest and wierdest stuff immaginable! For example :

#1) You can make Popo Dash Attack while making Nana jump : Dash Dance ---> (when Popo is still Dashing and Nana gets in the stopping State), Input A + Jump ---> input any move with Nana while she is in the air (any aerial or B-move). if you do not want Popo to get too far from Center Stage, you can also cancel your Dash Attack with a grab (Z, R or L before making Nana jump). This will make Nana jump slightly in front of you. The timing of the jump input and A input does not have to be on the exact same Frame, jump should be inputed slightly after A. I like using Up to jump here because the right thumb is already pressing A and is used after for the Nana input (B or C-Stick).

#2) You can make Popo Shield while making Nana jump : Dash Dance stuff ---> input Shield ans Jump on the EXACT same Frame. Since Nana will not Shield due the Stopping State and pressing Jump and Shield simultaniously always makes you shield, only Nana will jump and Popo will be Shielding. You can use this to make Nana throw an Ice Block while in Shield and then Wavedash out of Shield to Follow it. I prefer using Bilzzard here because Nana will jump in front of you and Blizzard seems like a better option to catch some air approaches. However, there is a better way to do this to make Nana be behind you that I will discuss later. You can also use D-air But I'm not sure it is of any use (I dont think it can beat Fox's N-air for example due to its dumb a** hitbox). The timing is really strict to get this, as said earlier, you have to press Shield and Jump at the exact same Frame.
**NOTE : Using Blizzard here will make Popo Spot Dodge. I do not think there is a way to avoid this.

#3) You can make Popo Roll while making Nana jump : DD stuff ---> Input roll and Jump. Since Nana cannot Roll during the stopping State (because she cannot Shield), the timing here doesn't need to be Frame pefect. Be sure however to NOT input the Roll after the Jump because it will make both Climbers Air Dodge. This one is a lot like #1 (and pretty much #2) but this time, Popo is rolling instead of Dash attacking (I found a particular use for this that I will also discuss later).

This means... you can actually make one Climber Roll and one Climber Wavedash! (XD) : You need to use both triggers to do this. I have surprised some players doing so by making them think I did a bad roll and making Nana D-Smash after the WD as they were gonna punish me. This is not that easy to recognize for the opponent as Popo's Roll actually hides Nana's WD. This trick is pretty hard do at first because of the complicated and not intuitive inputs (requires both thumbs and both indexes) but I think of it this way : use the left hand to make Popo Roll and the right hand to make Nana WD. In your head, just think about the WD input (as the Roll input is way easier and requires less thought). The right trigger is pressed slightly after the left one and the Control Stick is angled as if you were trying to do a long WD (to get both the Roll and the WD). If you angle the Control Stick lower, you can make Popo Spot Dodge and Nana WD back.

There are many more possibilities to this desynch : Popo DA/Roll and Nana Blizzard (grounded or airborne)/Ice Block (grounded or airborne)/Smash Attack/Aerial/JC Grab. The possibilities are ridiculous! I do not have a particuliar use for any of those since I am fairly new to competitive melee and started to play ICs in November.

Now, this Desynch can also be performed by dashing once backwards and once forward (I do not know the exact Frame timing but its not that difficult to figure out). If you use this trick and perform #2, Nana will be jumping BEHIND you and will most likely not get hit while she shoots the Ice Block. Popo will probably not get hit too because he is in Shield. It is also much easier to follow the Ice Block after you WD OOS. Also if you use this trick to do #3, Nana will jump and will be pulled backwards from your Roll. You can use this to make Nanapult while she drifts backwards. I found that to be a really safe option.

This is pretty much all I had to say, thought I could share what I found out while messing around with the ICs. I didn't really know where to put this text... If people don't know about all this, please spread this message

Disclaimer : All the stuff I mentionned above is humanly possible as I can do ALL of them with a GameCube Controller on a real console at normal Speed.

 

[IC-Rambler]

[quote="Epic!, post: 18982167, member: 236994"

-- See above quote --

[/quote]

... my brain hurts after reading that lol. The roll/ WD thing sound interesting, along with everything else. I'll have to play around with this a lot later. There are some confusing inputs in there lol, Maybe my one-handed WDing skills might finally come in handy

 

[Epic!]

... my brain hurts after reading that lol. The roll/ WD thing sound interesting, along with everything else. I'll have to play around with this a lot later. There are some confusing inputs in there lol, Maybe my one-handed WDing skills might finally come in handy

I asked another ICs player about that earlier this week (Fly) and he told me that all of this was known and mostly not very good (an answer I was kind of expecting lol). He basically told me that Isolated Dash Attacks and Ice blocks out of DD were okay but most of other stuff was bad (like smashes as they have small hitboxes or are laggy). This is pretty much what I thought at first but I prefered asking an obv better player for his opinion.

I am not absolutly amazing at executing all of this, which doesnt help, but I felt like trying to do these during an actual match was quite hard because it required a lot of Setup. I did get some of them from time to time but they felt very situationnal.

I'm still practicing the harder ones (like Jump Ice block while shielding with Nana behind you) to be almost perfect with them and to try them in an actual match. Then I might be able to come up with possible uses. My previous post was mostly try explaining my understanding of the the DD desynch

 

[IC-Rambler]

Ya, now that I'm playing actually good people I've learned how annoying it is to setup desyncs, and how hard it is to have good movement during them... I'm looking for tricky ways to keep desyncs going after I've set them up. If I could somehow keep a desync with decent movement, man I'd be a happy climber

 

[Fugibean]

Not a technical comment at all this just looks awseome!

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've actually always been a fan of dd ice blocks. They aren't the greatest thing on the planet by any means, but you can set up an ice block chaser super fast.
That said, ice block chasers are usually pretty gimmicky, but there are situations where they are decent options (i.e. when an opponent has to land on top of one, or when they get caught in dash away).