Deleted

[Morrigan]

Well the Bomber might have been what was killing you at times! But also, doing an aerial after the throw will not help!! It just means you won't be able to use aerial influence, or a jump, to avoid the edge. Once you've done the throw, you're free.

Also, thanks again for discovering that throws escape hitstun, it's really useful and should be added to the OP.

Yeah, I noticed the Bomber's upward boost (hell, I even got KO'd before the "-chaa!" sound), the times I survived using the Bomber was probably because of low % damage.

Anyways, are you saying that after performing the throw one should normally have to return to the stage? Meaning...it "acts" as the aerial?

 

[Ulevo]

I have come to the conclusion that the aerial you use for vertical trajectory is irrelevant, as long as you fast fall it. That being said, it is easier to do Fair, Bair or Uair with the C Stick while holding down since Nair and Dair require a properly timed manual fast fall, but the actual aerial in question does not matter. I tested this with a few characters, and I got the same result regardless of which attack I used.

I'm still assuming the best aerial to use when sent side ways is the one that ends soonest however.

 

[PKSkyler]

so if I get hit to the side, I ussually air dodge then double jump....should I nair/fair instead?(im using Ness.)

 

[Levitas]

Do a nair.

 

[infomon]

Anyways, are you saying that after performing the throw one should normally have to return to the stage? Meaning...it "acts" as the aerial?

Yeah. The reason aerials are used is so you can a) fastfall them to avoid the ceiling, and/or b) if they end quickly then you regain your aerial influence and/or can jump to avoid the side blast-zones. Throwing generally ends faster than aerials so throwing is the better choice for this if you are able. I'm not sure if you can fastfall a throw o_O

I have come to the conclusion that the aerial you use for vertical trajectory is irrelevant, as long as you fast fall it.

Not quite; Sonic's Dair (and I'd assume other momentum-changing aerials) can't be fastfalled, so it's as bad or worse than an airdodge. Although I could be wrong, I only tried it a few times.

I'm still assuming the best aerial to use when sent side ways is the one that ends soonest however.

Yep, unless you can throw which might end even sooner!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh wow, so the secret is out. I've been doing this since about early August and my average tourney placement jumped when I started using it. It's FREAKING good.

Dekuu, wow at throwing a turnip. Great idea...but if I don't have a turnip, I want to do Peach's nuetral air or down air. I like down air better because I can keep hitting down on the c stick and it helps me fast fall as well, although neutral air comes out quicker, I should try working that in from now on.

Doesn't Peach's Uair have a shorter beginning to end time? I can't remember the frame data but I've found that I can attack a LOT sooner after Uair has finished than Nair. So if Peach is sent horizontally, it's better to use Uair because you can jump straight after it and if she is sent vertically, it's better to use Nair because it comes out faster?

...or did I get that all wrong? :x

 

[Ulevo]

so if I get hit to the side, I ussually air dodge then double jump....should I nair/fair instead?(im using Ness.)

I think Nair is his aerial that ends soonest... But yes, that is what you should be doing. Do not Air Dodge and Jump.

 

[infomon]

and if she is sent vertically, it's better to use Nair because it comes out faster?

Ulevo just answered:

I have come to the conclusion that the aerial you use for vertical trajectory is irrelevant, as long as you fast fall it. That being said, it is easier to do Fair, Bair or Uair with the C Stick while holding down since Nair and Dair require a properly timed manual fast fall, but the actual aerial in question does not matter.

lol. Aside from that you are right

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Well, time to play me vs 3 level 9 cpu's teamed against me TA off. best way to practice your DI - ever-.

 

[Morrigan]

Well, time to play me vs 3 level 9 cpu's teamed against me TA off. best way to practice your DI - ever-.

You don't even have to set up a Team battle for that. They will always be after you.

 

[Ulevo]

You don't even have to set up a Team battle for that. They will always be after you.

It's because they want his pieces.

 

[Big O]

Most faclon kick style dairs have their uber fast falling mechanics disabled after getting hit meaning they do not help at all. G&W's dair can be fast falled to help though for some reason. Sonic's, Shiek's, and Toon Link's dairs do not work. These are the only ones I have tried though so there may be some more that work like G&W's.

EDIT-

"I'm still assuming the best aerial to use when sent side ways is the one that ends soonest however."

Yeah this is true but for some reason it says start up frames on #1 and 2 in the first post. Is that a typo or do you mean something else by start up frames?

 

[Ulevo]

Most faclon kick style dairs have their uber fast falling mechanics disabled after getting hit meaning they do not help at all. G&W's dair can be fast falled to help though for some reason. Sonic's, Shiek's, and Toon Link's dairs do not work. These are the only ones I have tried though so there may be some more that work like G&W's.

EDIT-

"I'm still assuming the best aerial to use when sent side ways is the one that ends soonest however."

Yeah this is true but for some reason it says start up frames on #1 and 2 in the first post. Is that a typo or do you mean something else by start up frames?

That's me not updating the OP. I will later once I'm done work.

 

[Delvro]

To avoid horizontal KOs, does holding the stick towards the stage help DURING the aerial (like it does when fastfalling aerials to avoid vertical KOs), or does it only help after the aerial is finished?

 

[Niko_K]

Would jumping also be an option?

 

[infomon]

To avoid horizontal KOs, does holding the stick towards the stage help DURING the aerial (like it does when fastfalling aerials to avoid vertical KOs), or does it only help after the aerial is finished?

AFAICT you do not have aerial control during the aerial, you continue along your hitstun path, horizontally. I could be wrong, but if I am it's subtle indeed.

Would jumping also be an option?

You can't jump during hitstun, but it definitely helps regain your horizontal momentum back as soon as you're out of hitstun.

 

[Niko_K]

There is next to no hitstun, I always just wiggle my jotstick back and forth quickly and are back in an upright position in next to no time.

 

[Delvro]

wiggling the joystick doesn't help you when you're in hitstun, what you are doing is recovering from tumbling, which is the phase after hitstun.

 

[Guilhe]

Ike’s Bair is his aerial attack with less starting and ending lag in the air. I know this by playing experience. I will conduct an experiment very soon and edit this post in order to prove it.

EDIT: It has been confirmed that Bair activates more quickly than any other of Ike's aerials. Here is the link... Are you still working on this?

 

[Tianxiazhai]

I do this with Marth, When i get sent flying, I Side B in the opposite direction. Almost completely stops momentum.

 

[infomon]

I do this with Marth, When i get sent flying, I Side B in the opposite direction. Almost completely stops momentum.

No, I'm afraid you're quite mistaken. You can't use your side-B during hitstun, and it is ineffective against the momentum caused by knockback. Indeed, at high %'s if you use an aerial attack (no Specials!) to escape hitstun and then quickly use your side-B, it will boost you upwards while you continue your knockback away from the stage.

 

[Sparta Kick]

I have come to the conclusion that the aerial you use for vertical trajectory is irrelevant, as long as you fast fall it. That being said, it is easier to do Fair, Bair or Uair with the C Stick while holding down since Nair and Dair require a properly timed manual fast fall, but the actual aerial in question does not matter. I tested this with a few characters, and I got the same result regardless of which attack I used.

I'm still assuming the best aerial to use when sent side ways is the one that ends soonest however.

If you DI left or right when being sent vertically, how do you use a Fair Bair or Uair while holding down? Do you have to quickly hold down on the control stick and do the aerial with the c-stick as your DI finishes???

 

[infomon]

If you DI left or right when being sent vertically, how do you use a Fair Bair or Uair while holding down? Do you have to quickly hold down on the control stick and do the aerial with the c-stick as your DI finishes???

For this type of discussion we should distinguish between DI (as in smash-DI and regular DI, which you perform as you're getting hit) and aerial influence, which is the control of your character after you're out of hitstun. That is, you can't seem to control your aerial movement at all until you do your aerial attack out of hitstun, anyway. Does that make sense?

 

[Niko_K]

Hitstun in brawl is kind of hard to fathom.

 

[infomon]

Hitstun in brawl is kind of hard to fathom.

What do you mean?

It mostly makes sense, at high percents on really large stages

 

[SketchHurricane]

Why is this thread 12 pages? Do people really have that hard a time accepting video proof? And, as pointed out on the very first page, there have been videos long before this showing the same thing. I've been doing this for a long time, and so have others.

 

[infomon]

Why is this thread 12 pages? Do people really have that hard a time accepting video proof? And, as pointed out on the very first page, there have been videos long before this showing the same thing. I've been doing this for a long time, and so have others.

Why don't you read the thread and find out? The OP has been updated multiple times, as discussion in this thread has unveiled new info about how this works. At least, new to everyone in this thread. Or please link me to any other discussion about how fastfalling can happen before reaching the apex of your vertical path. Or about how momentum-changing special moves give you an extra jump/boost away from the stage if used during knockback momentum. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but it's not as if these aspects of the game are trivial, or even that widely known.

 

[Munas]

My friends Toon Link constantly lives to around 200%, sometimes more or rare occasions, due to him using proper DI in conjunction with this. And he's not even using the proper aerial. He's using the Fair out of habbit, which I believe is the slowest of the aerials.

Hey! That's me!

I've only read to page 3 or 4, so I don't know where teh consensus has gone since then, but I'll give my two cents anyway.

Before I got into the habit of using an aerial when struck I was in the habit of airdodging and jumping, I died way more. I can't provide any hard statistical proof, so take this as you will, but using the aerial saves me on a regular basis.

I'm not the best player in the world, heck I'm probably not even up to what some might consider tournament standard, but I went to a tournament in TO not long ago with Ulevo and some buddies and though I lost A LOT of my matches, I regularly survived to like 180% against tournament caliber players, including one match surviving to 233% against a tournament caliber Lucario. Keeping in mind that this is with Toon Link, who is a pretty light character, not reknowned for his difficulty to kill.

That having been said, while it seems to work with most characters certain characters don't benefit as much: for example, I find that it rarely saves me when I play Sheik.

 

[Voidious]

Just want to give a huge thanks to Ulevo and everyone else for this thread. I'm now working on breaking my 6-month habit of air dodging after being hit.

My "feel" for what hits will kill me is pretty well tuned at this point, and even in one night of practicing, I'm pretty sure I survived some attacks that would've killed me before (with air dodging). Rock!

 

[Sparta Kick]

When sent horizontally do you still need to hold down on the control stick and c-stick any dirction but down initiating the fast fall and then jump or can you just c-stick a direction without the fast fall then jump?

 

[Voidious]

When sent horizontally do you still need to hold down on the control stick and c-stick any dirction but down initiating the fast fall and then jump or can you just c-stick a direction without the fast fall then jump?

Beware, I'm no expert, but this is my understanding...

You wouldn't want to fast fall when sent horizontally. Doing the aerial gives you control back ASAP, then you can jump ASAP to start moving yourself back towards the stage. The fast fall element is in addition to this, and it will also help you survive if you are sent upwards, but it won't do anything for you in a horizontal situation (except usually kill you even faster).

That said, there could be bizarre horizontal-trajectory cases -- where you're also going slightly downward -- where fast falling would help you avoid the side blast zone. You'd have to be using Pit or MK or someone who could cover that extremely long distance, though, and even then I reckon you'd usually SD.

Hope that helps.

 

[infomon]

Voidious is absolutely right IMO.

 

[Sparta Kick]

Did someone earlier say that for snake when being sent horizontally it is better to airdodge and jump compared to snakes extremely long aerials? Or was it decided that air dodging sucks and should never be used?

 

[Ulevo]

Did someone earlier say that for snake when being sent horizontally it is better to airdodge and jump compared to snakes extremely long aerials? Or was it decided that air dodging sucks and should never be used?

It was decided that air dodging sucks and should never be used.

 

[infomon]

Ulevo: Really? If all of Snake's aerials end later than his airdodge, then Sparta Kick would be right. I don't know Snake well enough to know which aerial(s) are fastest.

 

[wangston]

I see the light now. I want to live!!!! I got it so know when I got utilted by Snake i'm going to fast fall my back air. Hahhaa now we will see who live longer.

 

[Gishnak]

Alright, so I read the first few pages, and I'm mostly convinced. Since I don't have time to read the whole post, can someone just clarify this for me?

If trying to survive, do the following:
Smash DI.
DI.
Fastest Aerial.

Right? And for the fastest aerial, are we talking about the aerial that comes out soonest, or the aerial that FINISHES soonest? Some come out slower but end sooner... So?

And some characters nairs are the fastest, but to perform a nair, you would need to release the joystick (thus reducing some DI). Is this still the best choice?

Sorry for reasking questions that I'm sure have been answered by this point. :/

Edit: Being sent up, any aerial will do? Just fast fall as soon as possible? (To do this should I spam down on joystick or c-stick? Or just learn the timing?)

 

[infomon]

If trying to survive, do the following:
Smash DI.
DI.
Fastest Aerial.

Right? And for the fastest aerial, are we talking about the aerial that comes out soonest, or the aerial that FINISHES soonest? Some come out slower but end sooner... So?

Yes. And use the aerial that finishes the soonest.

And some characters nairs are the fastest, but to perform a nair, you would need to release the joystick (thus reducing some DI). Is this still the best choice?

After the hit, when you're flying away in hitstun, you can't DI; both smash-DI and regular-DI are input during the hit. I don't think you get aerial control of your character until after your aerial finishes (except for fastfalling), so you shouldn't have a problem using Nair. People have a habit of holding their regular-DI direction after they go flying but I'm pretty sure that doesn't help any, so break the habit

Edit: Being sent up, any aerial will do? Just fast fall as soon as possible? (To do this should I spam down on joystick or c-stick? Or just learn the timing?)

Yep. Except for some momentum-changing aerials, like Sonic's Dair -- I'm pretty sure it can't be fastfalled; usually it is a fastfall, like it forces a faster-than-normal fastfall and then you proceed to fastfall.. but when you're in knockback, it doesn't let you fastfall any. I'm not sure what other characters this is true for; it might not apply to all vertical-momentum-changing aerials.

 

[z5kaento5z]

I don't know if it actually helps, but using Pikachu, when I get sent flying either vertically or horizontally, bair usually screws with my momentum and it seems like it keeps me alive.

Has anyone else tried Pika's bair?

 

[Praxis]

I can't figure out what aerial to use with Peach. Nair comes out fastest (Bair second) and Fair comes out slowest, but all of her aerial hitboxes linger except for fair so I suspect fair might end fastest. Plus, Nair would require that I drop my DI to input since I have to release the stick.

What's the best pick of Peach's aerials? I'm thinking fair since it ends soonest...or would I want nair/bair for the fast startup time?

Also, if I perform an aerial, then float, think that would affect the momentum? I'm guessing not: Air dodge to float doesn't do much. But worth asking.