D-Throw techchase on fastfallers?

[KillerGum]

I have lurked these boards for a while now and have yet to come across any discussion of this. I tried testing it out and it looks like it could be legit, but I had to use 2 controllers at once so it might not be. Anyone have any input?

 

[Mr. S]

It's doable, but fairly punishable. I prefer to follow up with projectiles and stuff like b-air.

 

[EddyBearr]

You have to get the grab in the first place.

 

[Phez_]

*if you get a grab*
i find it kinda difficult but definately doable
also gets the crowd hype if you can pull it off
and like Mr. S said, you could die for screwing it up

 

[JANKX]

I tried running some tests on this in 20XX, and it appears that the only way to techchase is to put out a safe option, or gamble with a 50/50 chance that you can get a regrab. The only way to obtain a regrab is if your opponent is caught off-guard, or catch them in a situational frametrap.

 

[ihasabuket]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPDDgkXqi_8

Not sure about falco, but definitely on falcon. laijin pulls it off in a couple of matches and to be perfectly honest i think hes bad at tech chasing (no offense laijin i have a lot of respect for you). At 0:06 he down throws him and he actually dashes the opposite way falcon tech rolls before dashing towards him and is still able to grab him. After the third throw he faces in the right direction but for some reason grabs the other way. Im sure someone who is better at tech chasing could do it consistently. Now getting the grab is the hard part. Generally you only go for the grab if their aerial hits the upper part of your shield or if theyre recovering high.

 

[JANKX]

I agree that chain-grabbing Falcon has a ton of potential using dthrow because his tech-roll is severely punishable. Just be careful not to go for a grab when he's out of range. As far as spacies go, I think the chance for regrabs are probably 50/50 because their tech-rolls are faster, plus the threat of shine.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm only willing to read tech-chase with Young Link since missing it means losing a stock.

 

[Sycorax]

I did some experimenting with a no-reads based techchase. My conclusion is that I don't think it's possible. Here's why:

Fox and Falco have three really strong options. The first is tech in place→shine. The second is tech in place→spotdodge. The third is DI away from YL and tech roll away.

Tech in place happens really fast, 26 frames. In most tech chases, e.g. Sheik's, it is advised to prime yourself for the tech in place and grab that. If the tech in place doesn't happen, react to it not happening by chasing them. Sheik's grab is 7 frames, not 11 like YL's though, which is a big problem. DruggedFox is notorious for having perfect techchases with Sheik, but has noted several times how hard it is to react to tech in place. Because of this, I'm not sure it's humanly possible with YL's grab. Let's pretend it is...

YL actually has quite a few frames to act before Fox and Falco can get a shine out after tech in place. If you know they are going to tech in place, you can easily WD back→grab or dash back→pivot grab. Both of these avoid the shine. You only need to dash back for 9 frames (that includes 1 frame of turn). If Fox/Falco want to go the safe route, tech in place→spotdodge makes the window for reacting to tech in place the smallest.

There is a problem with WD'ing/dashing backwards though. If Fox or Falco DI the throw away from YL, they can tech roll away and YL will not be able to chase them quickly enough after a dash/WD back (which would have been done to avoid a shine). They can spotdodge (and possibly even roll (I didn't test it, but if the YL isn't frame perfect, they could probably get a roll off)) after the tech roll. YL could predict this of course, wait for their reaction, and then possibly punish. Buffered jump after the tech roll may be hard for YL to punish.

So what if YL doesn't dash/WD back to avoid the shine? He can definitely react in time to whatever direction they tech roll. He may not be able to react to tech in place, however, as said before.

I think the best bet is to wait after dthrow, prime yourself to react to tech in place, and try to get that reaction. If you see them tech roll, you have time to chase them. Basically, the same as Sheik's tech chase, but you have to react faster by 4 frames. If they get get tech in place→shine happy, call them out with a WD back or pivot grab. Falcon is basically the same except he doesn't have a shine. Tech in place→spotdodge is his best option, but he can mix it up with tech rolls to keep you honest.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The problem is that you can't really react to tech in place with a grab. It's too slow.

 

[ihasabuket]

I dont have a setup right now so this is just speculation. So i looked into it and young link's dthrow has 4 or 5(not sure how im supposed to round it) more actionable frames than shieks dthrow on fox. We'll assume 4 to assume its the worst scenario. Im not sure how far fox can DI away before teching but i think you should be able to just follow the direction fox's body falls towards which will buffer a walk. I assume that the spot he lands in(before teching) should be within young links grab range. The advantage to this is that you dont have to JC and which would normally take 2 more frames(dash+jump). Anyway according to gravy Foxs tech in place is distinguishable on frame 2 and lasts 26 frames. Average reaction time is 12-15 frames but we'll assume we all have the lower end at 15 frames. So you start grabbing frame 16 and ylinks grab is 11 frames. grab comes out frame 27 which is the frame shine comes out. However, ylinks grab lasts 3 frames(27-29) at the handle in front of you and the hook travels for 4 frames(27-29) meaning that more than likely it will grab fox during his shine endlag. If fox chooses to spotdodge he will be grabbed frame 27 before becoming invincible frame 28. Now reaction time can be trained to be a bit faster than this but we'll assume that we all trained and have an average reaction time of 12 frames. Start grab on frame 13 and it will come out frame 24 with a 2 frame leniency. Really you have a 3 frame leniency because shine will get grabbed the next frame and spotdodge is invincible frame 2. Since youre grabbing out of a walk its identical to standing. The thing about JC grabbing is that if you dont do it frame perfect it ends up becoming more than 2 extra frames and its easy to mess up since its a 3 button input. This will literally just be hitting z since youd be holding the control stick in his direction before he lands. If he lands right on top of you to tech in place and you dont think youll act soon enough you could always opt for a dsmash, uptilt, or nair.

Now if he doesnt tech in place you should still start the same way. Walk towards his DI and then quickly release the control stick and smash it to dash out of your walk. Foxs tech in and away are much shorter than falcons and move horizontally on frames 9 and 6 respectively. I assume this should be the frame where it is distinguishable. Both techs are invincible 1-20 and last 40 frames. So lets say we all have a 15 frame reaction time. Young link would start his JC grab frames 21(comes out 34) and 14(comes out 37) respectively. This leaves us with a 6(in) and 3(away) frame leniency. If you train your reaction time it should be EZ mooney.

I dont think you cant dthrow techchase falco though. If anyone can test this to confirm itd be great.

 

[Sycorax]

You overestimate human reaction time. I am personal friends with DruggedFox and talking to him about reaction techchasing with Sheik makes me think that YL's grab is just too slow to do it. He says that reacting to tech in place with a 7 frame grab is EXTREMELY hard. The 4 frame difference in grab speeds is massive.

Here's a thread in the Marth R&D Facebook group where Kadano and other people talk a lot about reaction speeds.

Here's a literature review on reaction time.

 

[ihasabuket]

You overestimate human reaction time. I am personal friends with DruggedFox and talking to him about reaction techchasing with Sheik makes me think that YL's grab is just too slow to do it. He says that reacting to tech in place with a 7 frame grab is EXTREMELY hard. The 4 frame difference in grab speeds is massive.

Here's a thread in the Marth R&D Facebook group where Kadano and other people talk a lot about reaction speeds.

Here's a literature review on reaction time.

The literature review was interesting and helpful. I had a feeling that reaction time worked like that. I used to try to cover falcos recovery by reacting to which one he used but i always missed his side b(17 frame startup). Later i read that mew2king said expect the side b and react to the upb. I figure that if you expect the tech in place you can actually react to it if youre already facing in the direction. Id like to see if you can cover tech away and in the way you would react to upb using this method. I know you're skeptical but id still like to give it a shot after i get 20xxTE.

Something id like to add is that although sheik has a much faster grab she has to check their position before she can grab. She would be performing a choice reaction where she would have to measure the distance you have to move and then decide between using standing, walk grab, or JC grab. If what I was saying is correct and fox is within young links grab range regardless of DI and you expect the tech in place, itd be a simple reaction since you would have buffered the walk/turnaround before fox hit the floor and youd only be using one option.

 

[Sycorax]

Something id like to add is that although sheik has a much faster grab she has to check their position before she can grab. She would be performing a choice reaction where she would have to measure the distance you have to move and then decide between using standing, walk grab, or JC grab.

Sheik doesn't have to choose like that. She can react to the DI, get in position, and then react to tech in place with grab, techroll with boost grab, or her choice for miss tech.
DruggedFox says: "One of the things that takes attention away from purely focusing on the tech animations is their DI on the actual throw. The faster you react to the DI they did on the throw, the more time you can spend focusing on the actual tech reaction. If they DI away you should walk towards their landing, if they land in front of you directly you should do no walk, and if they are going to land behind you then you should turn around."
I'm skeptical, but if you believe, go for it. I'd love to be proved wrong

 

[derdian]

You can't really react to all options reliably, however if they tech in or away (not in place) you can react to it and should get the regrab every time, if they tech in place it is too risky to go for regrab. However, if you start a tech chase and regrab them because they rolled the first time, just hard read tech in place on the next throw since they know it is the best option vs yink. This will only work 1 or 2 times a set until they catch on but hey its something and it works prolly 99% of the time. After this for the rest of the set you can mixup reacting to roll away regrabs or hard reading tech in place with safer options such as boomerang/aerials/dsmash.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Here is my tech chase flowchart, maybe others can improve it.

dthrow
reposition to control center stage
turn to face landing

if tech in place or missed tech -> dsmash
if roll behind -> turn grab
if roll away -> ??? (positional advantage)

Heres what it looks like vs a no tech