Countering

[eep the defiler]

My friends always argue whether or not countering (down-B) with Roy (Marth too, but mostly Roy) is a good strategy or just for noobs. Can someone shed some light on the opinion of countering in the tournament world.

 

[Tundravalco]

it has its extremely rare uses which are mostly for comedic pleasure like countering somebody returning or something but my roy almost never uses counter. for tournaments though my opinion is no but lets hear what the rest of the roy players have to say.

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

counter does not come out fast enough to be used as a reactionary move, like marths can at times. the only times you will use it is when you:

1. are edgeguarding a fox/falco doing upb
2. you KNOW someone will attack you
3. you trick someone into attacking you.

basically, mindgames.

 

[Dogysamich]

Im not a roy player, but I mess around with marth a lil bit.

But from my tourney experience, I can safely say that if you use counter, you have to be 100% sure of two things.

#1 - you have to be absolutely sure that your opponent will attack you during your counter frames.
The worse thing that obviously can happen is if you're predictable, and they trick you into countering. This is just setting you up for free hits/combos/grabs, and obviously can be the worst thing ever.
The next thing that could happen is if you counter, but they dont attack; whether from fear, unsureness of what's going on, etc. This isnt so bad, but it'll probably throw away what momentum you had (if you used counter as an offensive move), or gives them more control (if you were using this as a defensive move). In a nutshell, I say missing a counter and not getting attack can hurt you psychologically. (Yeah im reading too much into this)

#2 - on top of being sure you opponent will attack, you have to be absolutely sure they will HIT you, or else you'll get punished the same.

A prime example of this is Ganondorf. A typical ganon move is the retreating f.air. Covers their ground, entirely safe as long as it's l-cancelled. Punishable if blocked, rewarding if a hit lands, etc etc etc.

So, if you can see they're going to do a retreating f.air, and you happen to run into it (for one reason or another) and counter, you're good. . . . but what happens if you thought they were going to jump towards you, so you counter? You're left wide open, and ganon is most likely in a position to get a free hit.

______________

All in all, i honestly dont think counter is bad, especially for roy. (Cause doesnt his do damage baesd on how much he would receive?)

The only thing is, counter is a "big" move, meaning you better make **** sure you're going to (get) hit, or else you better expect to get hit.
​

 

[offcell]

Like Cherokee said, break it out when you know they are going to attack you. Also, don't spam it or they'll just wait and capitalize on it.

 

[EdgeMaster025]

Im not a roy player, but I mess around with marth a lil bit.

But from my tourney experience, I can safely say that if you use counter, you have to be 100% sure of two things.

#1 - you have to be absolutely sure that your opponent will attack you during your counter frames.
The worse thing that obviously can happen is if you're predictable, and they trick you into countering. This is just setting you up for free hits/combos/grabs, and obviously can be the worst thing ever.
The next thing that could happen is if you counter, but they dont attack; whether from fear, unsureness of what's going on, etc. This isnt so bad, but it'll probably throw away what momentum you had (if you used counter as an offensive move), or gives them more control (if you were using this as a defensive move). In a nutshell, I say missing a counter and not getting attack can hurt you psychologically. (Yeah im reading too much into this)

#2 - on top of being sure you opponent will attack, you have to be absolutely sure they will HIT you, or else you'll get punished the same.

A prime example of this is Ganondorf. A typical ganon move is the retreating f.air. Covers their ground, entirely safe as long as it's l-cancelled. Punishable if blocked, rewarding if a hit lands, etc etc etc.

So, if you can see they're going to do a retreating f.air, and you happen to run into it (for one reason or another) and counter, you're good. . . . but what happens if you thought they were going to jump towards you, so you counter? You're left wide open, and ganon is most likely in a position to get a free hit.

______________

All in all, i honestly dont think counter is bad, especially for roy. (Cause doesnt his do damage baesd on how much he would receive?)

The only thing is, counter is a "big" move, meaning you better make **** sure you're going to (get) hit, or else you better expect to get hit.
​

Well said.

I myself, having no human opponents within a 5 mile radius (I'm so lonely) can effectively use it against level nine computers, but that of course doesn't translate to being effective against anyone. Human intelligence just cannot be replicated.

So I may seem a bit cocky about my Roy... -ness... but oh well. C'est la vie.

 

[Undefined]

Well said.

I myself, having no human opponents within a 5 mile radius (I'm so lonely) can effectively use it against level nine computers, but that of course doesn't translate to being effective against anyone. Human intelligence just cannot be replicated.

So I may seem a bit cocky about my Roy... -ness... but oh well. C'est la vie.

you are complaining about a 5 mile radius........ar eyou serious?????????????????????

 

[EdgeMaster025]

you are complaining about a 5 mile radius........ar eyou serious?????????????????????

One, you only need one question mark. Just FYI.

Two, yes. Why, is it like 100 miles for you?

 

[Soma]

The counter works best with someone without mind games, or a falco... sometimes you can just smell a d-air coming for a shine combo.. its really all a guessing a game. But, there has been a few times I've actually removed a stock because of a well timed counter. Its basically either a friendly only move, or something you just throw out rarely when you just have the gut feeling.. But, fair warning if you mistime the counter you are going to get punished really badly.

 

[Artistry]

You should use it sparingely in friendlies. After that, when you feel that you can do it effectively in a match, then ease it into your tournament play. Also, follow what everyone before me said.

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

One, you only need one question mark. Just FYI.

Two, yes. Why, is it like 100 miles for you?

1. ?????????????????????

2. smashers travel crazy distances to go to tournaments. your post just means you dont go to tournaments rofl.

 

[Sky2042]

It just means he's not so ******** as to drive right now...

You know what the average price of gas is in America atm? :/

 

[Corigames]

I'm going to my first one this month (first official "pay to enter" tournament).

 

[EdgeMaster025]

It just means he's not so ******** as to drive right now...

You know what the average price of gas is in America atm? :/

Freakishly high. That's why I am glad I don't drive.

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

It just means he's not so ******** as to drive right now...

You know what the average price of gas is in America atm? :/

do you know what a john is? cuz you sure make alot of them, lol but you're a roy main what else would i expect?

 

[Sky2042]

do you know what a john is? cuz you sure make alot of them, lol but you're a roy main what else would i expect?

That's nice. Oooooooooooooooooh. Wait a minute. I do know what a john is!

What else you could expect... hmm... good question. No se. Perro, no yo cuido que tu pienses. You act like you are a 5 year old on here. What else could I expect?

 

[Tera253]

My friends always argue whether or not countering (down-B) with Roy (Marth too, but mostly Roy) is a good strategy or just for noobs. Can someone shed some light on the opinion of countering in the tournament world.

countering is a decent edgeblocking technique. if your opponent has a decent amount of damage, try jumping out ther and countering them. if you're lucky, (like Tera was) you'll hit them right as they up+B and send them down. if not... well...
sure it may seem like "what kid of n00b would up+B?" well, there is an answer. every time it has been a do-or-die situation, so there.
~Tera253~

 

[Deathmonger]

I'm just a scrub, but I main roy. I find that the counter is a great way to finish players off at higher percentages, especially when they don't know it's coming. Don't overuse the counter, this way your opponent doesn't know it's coming. I usually find trouble finishing people off with roy, so if you can land the counter, it is really great for sending people off the stage. It sends them flying up first, then for some reason it shoots them downwards before they can recover. So i think the counter is a great way to finish people off, but it's uses are limited meaning that you can't use it very often, and that you gotta make sure it hits.

 

[EdgeMaster025]

I'm just a scrub, but I main roy. I find that the counter is a great way to finish players off at higher percentages, especially when they don't know it's coming. Don't overuse the counter, this way your opponent doesn't know it's coming. I usually find trouble finishing people off with roy, so if you can land the counter, it is really great for sending people off the stage. It sends them flying up first, then for some reason it shoots them downwards before they can recover. So i think the counter is a great way to finish people off, but it's uses are limited meaning that you can't use it very often, and that you gotta make sure it hits.

True. Yeah. Just get a friend, and practice with it. Practice sort of "reading" them, know when an attack is coming.

If they just stand there next to you for a few seconds, then that might be a fair indication.

But that's just me, and the only competition I can get is the CPUs.

 

[Corigames]

The only thing that computers are good for practicing with Roy is trying to get the one hit kill on jigglypuff. Aside from that, you can kill them all by charging up an sending them flying; it's like they are moths to the glowing light or something.

 

[Beeble]

Does anyone know the specifics behind the 'spike' that can occur after a successful counter (as in when, say, roy counters a marth fsmash, marth is knocked back, and then the tracjectory changes to a downward angle by about 90 degress)?

 

[Klowne]

Does anyone know the specifics behind the 'spike' that can occur after a successful counter (as in when, say, roy counters a marth fsmash, marth is knocked back, and then the tracjectory changes to a downward angle by about 90 degress)?

Roy creates invisible walls with his mind. Due to these undisclosed psionic powers i propose Roy be promoted to top tier posthaste.

Also: you can jump out of your shield into a counter, which can sometimes work on a falco doing the SHL > airial approach.

 

[Dr. Science]

I say the counter is good for throwing out if the opponent gets predictable....

The main use for the counter to me is for it's mindgame purposes. Instinctively whne someone get's hit by a counter, or if you do it frequently, your opponent will play more safe (hopefully) expecting you to counter agian... instead you can simply go on the offensive.

I call doing counters consistantly enough to throw the opponent on the defensive Mindrape.

 

[Speedsk8er]

do you know what a john is? cuz you sure make alot of them, lol but you're a roy main what else would i expect?

Dude, that is not a john. You're a *******. Gas is retardedly high. I can barely go to work, let alone go to a frigging Smashfest.

 

[Deathmonger]

Another thing with roy's counter is that it doesn't all hit, and rather the opponents attack goes through the counter and still hits roy. Unfortunately, this happens a lot against ganondorfs up air, when roy is above ganondorf. I don't know if its because roy's sword doesn't reach ganon from this angle or if ganon is just too powerful. Either way, it doesn't work

 

[Satoshi]

Another thing with roy's counter is that it doesn't all hit, and rather the opponents attack goes through the counter and still hits roy. Unfortunately, this happens a lot against ganondorfs up air, when roy is above ganondorf. I don't know if its because roy's sword doesn't reach ganon from this angle or if ganon is just too powerful. Either way, it doesn't work

Both Ganondorf's and CF's up+b break through Roy's counter, as do all "grabbing" moves. But as for Gonondorf... Since all his attacks can be easily seen before they hit, Roy's counter completely owns him.

Anyways... The counter is something to use extremely sparingly until you've made it a reflex, or until you know your opponent like the back of your hand... Unlike Marth, Roy's counter has less than a second of effect, there's maybe a quarter of a second on the opening, and another quarter afterwards in which Roy is open for any attack... That's something to keep in mind when fighting players who charge smash attacks. Even in the best situations, about a third of your counters will just be lucky timing, so don't put 100 percent of your trust into it.

 

[technomancer]

Counter is good for:
KOing heavy, slow characters, like Bowser and 'dorf on reaction
Escaping an overextended combo (watch out for mindgames)
Mindgames
Comboing into the D-air spike

It's underused in my opinion, but... don't overuse it you'll die.

 

[FrozenRoy]

FrozenRoy's Set and Comment Corner Here

That's right, it is time for my MYM14 Rankings! It's quite simple, I rank the sets I like, in the order I like them, so that you can see this list of pretty pictures and go "oh with that rating this set must be LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOATHED ENTIIIIIIIIIIIIRELY by him!". It's just my opinion, though.

As usual, my MYM14 Ratings will be able to be found by clicking the little Aradia in my signature. Say hi, flying Aradia! My rankings also tend to be more fluid than some others, with fairly frequent changes, so sometimes you might want to check back when I rank things to see if anything changed.

Sets are ranked on a 10 star scale, as explained below. It also will tell you how many sets are in each tier.

Star Rating Explanation

- 10 Stars(1 Ranked): Yes, I actually give out ten stars. 10 stars are for the elite of the elite for the contest...in my opinion, anyway. These sets have neglible negative points or easily glossed over ones, alongside things such as great gameplay, execution, concept and the like.
- 9 Stars(6 Ranked): Nine stars are sets which are personal favorites, but have some sort of flaw keeping them from the 10 stars, or just are slightly less liked: For example, maybe the set is awesome, except the set falls flat on it's face for a few moves, that sort of thing. These are still in the elite, however.
- 8 Stars(5 Ranked): Eight star sets are great sets, but something is missing, keeping them merely in the upper echelons rather than the elite. A little elbow grease and you can take these and turn their moveset philosophies into true tens.
- 7 Stars(11 Ranked): Seven star sets are good, but not great, usually having some large flaw or somesuch to keep them out of higher tiers. Maybe their concept has a critical logic error or the gameplay is particularly flawed in some area, such as an overly long recovery or a gameplay critical move with whack lag times. Movesets here, while good, tend to be ultimately forgettable.
- 6 Stars(13 Ranked): Six stars are sets I like, but which have...issues, really needing massive improvement. Maybe the concepts aren't expanded upon or the set is particularly imbalanced or underdetailed, but with enough to make up for it.
- 5 Stars(5 Ranked): At five stars, I don't like it, but I don't dislike it either...in other words, average. What else needs to be said?
- 4 Stars(11 Ranked): At 4 stars, I dislike the moveset, but I don't dislike it all that much. Maybe it has some redeeming quality that keeps it from the lower rungs or I can understand viewpoints that might lead others to like it. All the same, this is the start of bad.
- 3 Stars(7 Ranked): Three stars? Moveset is bad, with the minimal redeeming qualities, maybe just has one standout thing and then a bunch of crap. You dig me?
- 2 Stars(9 Ranked): At two stars, I hate the moveset. Maybe it's really tacky, hideously imbalanced, characterization destruction, whatever: This is one of the two worst and the moveset is ultimately awful in multiple manners.
- 1 Star(5 Ranked): At one star, the moveset is LOOOOOOOOATHED ENTIIIIIIIIIIIRELY.

---

Ranked Movesets

Number of MYM14 Sets Ranked: 73

Vyse
**********
10/10

Bubble Witch Marin
*********
9/10

Vespiquen
*********
9/10

Richter Belmont
*********
9/10

Saber Alter
*********
9/10

Whiscash
*********
9/10

Dark Falz
*********
9/10

Spider-Man
********
8/10

Mami Tomoe
********
8/10

Salvatore
********
8/10

Pinsir
********
8/10

Lobo
********
8/10

Koffing
*******
7/10

Kusumi-no-Okami
*******
7/10

Waluigi
*******
7/10

Ant Hill Mob
*******
7/10

Kudgel
*******
7/10

Gyarados
*******
7/10

Nisa
*******
7/10

Jet the Hawk
*******
7/10

Carmilla
*******
7/10

Rotom-F
*******
7/10

Nidorino
*******
7/10

Gluttony
******
6/10

Sir Daniel Fortesque
******
6/10

Ultron
******
6/10

ChuChus
******
6/10

Jigglypuff Remix
******
6/10

TAC
******
6/10

Minami
******
6/10

Ares
******
6/10

The Producer
******
6/10

Necrolyte
******
6/10

Strider Hiryu
******
6/10

Bone Golem
******
6/10

Water Dragon
******
6/10

Little Nemo
*****
5/10

Avalugg
*****
5/10

Lord Magnemite
*****
5/10

Steve?
*****
5/10

Dust Man
*****
5/10

King Boo
****
4/10

Nitros Oxide
****
4/10

Son Pikong
****
4/10

Magic Knight
****
4/10

Blood Falcon
****
4/10

Spider
****
4/10

Shadow the Hedgehog
****
4/10

Rain
****
4/10

Omega Ridley
****
4/10

Dr. Ivo Robotnik
****
4/10

Bad Girl
****
4/10

JOE-oh
***
3/10

Gruesome Twosome
***
3/10

Elec Man
***
3/10

Cody Travers
***
3/10

Jinbe
***
3/10

Scrooge McDuck
***
3/10

Koopa Troopas
***
3/10

Ring Man (ZIGMA)
***
3/10

Blizzard Man
**
2/10

King
**
2/10

Axel the Dark Hero
**
2/10

Blaziken
**
2/10

Dive Man
**
2/10

Hammer Bro
**
2/10

Gravity Man
**
2/10

Guts Man
**
2/10

Merlina
**
2/10

Volknerr
*
1/10

Nintendog
*
1/10

Starforce Megaman
*
1/10

Selene
*
1/10

Mabel and Dipper
*
1/10

 

[DelxDoom]

Does anyone know the specifics behind the 'spike' that can occur after a successful counter (as in when, say, roy counters a marth fsmash, marth is knocked back, and then the tracjectory changes to a downward angle by about 90 degress)?

if roy is on the ground when he hits with a counter it'll do the weird angle thing.

...
if he's in the air and counters, it's just a normal hit. (ie. counter out of shield)
counter Firefox/bird for fun and mindgames. that's about it I know.

 

[Satoshi]

I have a question...

Is it possible to counter(With Roy) a Fox or Falco's shine AND have the counter hit? Or will the Fox/Falco be too faster and jump out?

Yes... You can counter it, but it's not really worth it seeing as unless their at a reasonably high damage percent they won't go far enough for you to get control over Roy without being hit.

 

[Kumagari]

Another tactic that I picked up from watching Masashi play Roy (when I was in Japan playing with him ^_^) is doing a ledgehopped counter to get back on the stage. Great way to surprise people if they haven't seen it before.

 

[-F_a_T_e-]

i agree w/ warrior on his post

 

[RoK the Reaper]

Well, let me shed some light on this for you. You see, Marth's counter comes out quick and lasts fairly long. Roy's counter comes out a big laggy and lasts for a brief time. Roy counter is more powerful and also has a "invisible Wall Glitch" Which at times, forces your opponent to hook down.

Countering is not for noobs, its about timing, precision, and paying attention to attacking patterns and good prediction. Also, its about knowing which moves to counter, at which percents. Let me give you examples of good moves to counter.

Gannon's Warlock Punch (Though no one EVER uses this move unless they're Bs'ing around)
Gannon's D-Air/F-Air.

Fox's Uair,F-Smash, FireFox.

Falco's Dair, F-Smash, And FireFox.

Marth's Fair, F-Smash, F-tilt.

Peach's D-Smash, F-Air.

Mario's Fair, D-Air. (Same For Doc)

Etc. Etc.

Just use it with care, you're widely open. OH! Very important note. Counter Samus Ball, you can kill her almost at 50-60%, Counter a missle and she's dead at around 90% (Remember the counter must hit her)

Hope that helps. Remember, counter is a move to keep you going in Melee. Sometimes you'll be on a role, and that one hit can change the position of a match. Or you might do a combo and you notice its a break in there that they can get a hit. Don't risk going for another attack, counter.