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Community Reference: Dealing with 'Jank' (Current: Sheik's Needle Camping & Customs Palutena)

Jaxas

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
1,996
Location
Salem, OR, US
NNID
Jaxas7

Hello everyone, and welcome to a thread that will hopefully serve as a reference on how to deal with specific setups, situations, or moves in general.

No one likes losing to something, especially not to find out later that there was an easy way to avoid it. Players are being punished because of a lack of knowledge, but even if you put in the time to look for answers sometimes they're hard to find, or simply not written up yet. I also see a lot of talk about things such as "everyone should know how to avoid X by now, stop getting hit by it!", but I know many, many players don't know how to avoid it.

Hopefully this thread can alleviate some of that.


Read This First: Rules and Guidelines
Please read this. Inside this spoiler is information on how this thread will operate.
What this thread is for
This thread is going to be a general reference for how to deal with specific moves. This means things such as DI directions, global (or at least mostly global) ways to deal with attacks, and if possible how to avoid being put in the bad situation in the first place.

This is also a place for productive discussion about improving both the original strategies and the counterplay to said strategy.

Also, yes you can discuss custom-only situations here (for example, how to escape Palutena's Lightweight throw combos). Doubles strategies are up for discussion as well!

Lastly, please keep discussion focused on in-tournament situations only. This means that Time/Coin matches, equipment, free-for-alls, etc are not going to be discussed.
This should also include online play, to a lesser extent. Basically, online-exsclusive perspectives and fixes can be discussed, but they are going to be the absolute lowest priority.


What this thread is not
This thread is not a place to complain that certain moves/tactics/etc are broken and unbeatable.

This is also not the place to list character-specific ways to beat a strategy, unless it's a general option (such as "Fast aerial") that many characters have.


How this thread will operate
I'm planning on having people propose a list of topics, and move through them two or three at a time.
After a topic has been discussed to the point where I feel that people have an adequate idea on how to deal with the setup, we'll move on to the next topic. (Also, if you feel like a topic needs more discussion please say so.)
Alternatively, after 1 week from the date we started discussing a topic has passed, it will be added to the 'completed' list (with a note that discussion is still needed).

References
These are things that people should know to discuss counterplay to these tactics; for example, if you don't know how DI works in this game, you probably can't discuss what DI would be best!

Current Discussion Topics
Topic A: How to punish :4sheik:'s Needle Camping (both Default & Penetrating Needles)
  • Frame data for Needles (Startup & total frames)
  • Who can punish at different ranges
Topic B: Dealing with (customs) :4palutena:: Super Speed, Lightweight, and the "Hallelu-hah"
  • General Information on each customs
  • Infinite Lightweight Glitch (and counterplay: hint, she's on a platform shark her)
  • Avoiding the grab (and the Jab1->Grab)

Upcoming/Suggested Discussion Topics
  • How to DI when you're grabbed by Sheik
  • How to fight Jumbo Hoop
  • Counterplay to Jab-locks
  • Dealing with Projectile Walls (Remember, it's offline-focused!)
  • Ganondorf: Dark Fists, Wizard's Dropkick
  • Rosalina & Luma: Luma Warp
  • Fox: Jab Lock (-> Smash)
  • Mario: Dthrow Combos
  • (Doubles) "MLG Ball" (Lucario + Villager)
  • (Doubles) "Vanish Bucket" (Sheik + Mr. Game & Watch)
  • Meta Knight (And Zero Suit Samus)'s Uair-Uair-Uspecial kills
  • (Suggestions are welcome!)
 
Last edited:

Jaxas

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
1,996
Location
Salem, OR, US
NNID
Jaxas7
Completed Discussion Topics and their Results
Overview
Fighting against a Villager attempting to camp the ledge with the Explosive Balloon Trip and Counter Tree customs may be difficult, but if you abuse some of Villager's other weaknesses, or the holes in the strategy, you can come out on top.

From our discussion, the most important thing to do while fighting this setup is to get the percent lead and force him to approach. (Luckily this is the same strategy that works on normal defensive Villagers, as his approach game isn't that strong.)


Dealing with the Strategy

  • Get the Percent Lead and force Villager to approach
    • If Villager's strategy is to win by timeout, he has to be ahead in percent to do so. If you get the percent lead, he is then forced off the ledge, and you can punish his (far weaker) approach game.
    • You can gain the percent lead by using a number of strategies
      • Using a Disjointed/Invincible attack to hit Villager (without popping the balloons)
      • Using an arcing (Diddy's Peanuts, Yoshi's Eggs, Mario's Fireballs), angled (Sheik's Needles), or downwards (MegaMan's Dair, Sonic's Spring - this also pops 1 balloon, which can stop recovery!) projectile to hit Villager on the ledge
        • Watch out for Pocket, though!
      • Attack Villager from the weak spots in his camping: directly above and below him
        • the only thing that covers these spots well is his Uair and Dair turnips, but they're laggy and therefore punishable if you can bait them out
      • Ledge Trump Villager into a punish (Damage is all you really need)
  • Wait out the Trip Sapling, then punish Villager on the ledge
    • Once the trip tree is gone, Villager is either forced to come back onto the stage to re-plant the tree or leave a gaping hole in his defenses
      • If the Villager comes up to the stage, he's then vulnerable to attacks.
        • There is also a delay between the sapling being planted and the trip hitbox actually appearing, so you can punish this!
      • If the Villager doesn't come back to the stage to refresh the tree, he's then very vulnerable on the ledge.
        • For most characters, the easiest way to punish a vulnerable Villager on the ledge is Dsmash (release it as Villager grabs the ledge). The Dsmash should trade with a balloon (5%) and hit Villager (for more than 5%, hopefully), also likely stage-spiking him. While it is Villager (with Villager's recovery...), the stage-spike will kill much earlier than the balloons will.
          • Dsmash doesn't work for characters with high-hitting Dsmashes (Captain Falcon/Ganondorf, for example). Dairs generally work well as a substitute for this, however. Some character's Dtilts (like Captain Falcon) or angled-down Fsmashes (such as Wario) work for this too.
    • Ledge trumping becomes a much easier option once the sapling is gone, as well
  • Beat the strategy before it begins
    • Pick a stage where the strategy doesn't work, such as Delphino Plaza, Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, and even Halberd to a lesser extent. The idea is that if the ledges go away, he can't camp them.
  • Gimp Villager with a Windbox
    • Explosive Balloon Trip only grabs the ledge after the apex of the jump after the balloons are popped
    • This lets you take a kill incredibly easily, but only some characters have access to these types of moves.
Further Strategies
Also, there are a number of characters who can beat this strategy incredibly easily. This tactic does not require a character-switch by any means, however if you're a player of one of these characters it may be easier to deal with it with them.
Some suggested characters are :4pikachu:, :4bowserjr:, :4littlemac:,:4metaknight:,:4ness:,:4miigun:,:4zelda:,:4wiifit:,:4myfriends:,:4dk:,:4megaman:,:4samus:, :4mario:,:4drmario:, :4pit:and many more.
Oh, and apparently XXX2 :4greninja:: just stand at the ledge and mash Dspecial a lot. It's invincible and has a large explosion that also hits the ledge. See this post for more information.

Video References

Reference: Full Discussion
Starting Post -> Ending Post
Overview
Donkey Kong's 2nd custom Uspecial, "Kong Cyclone", is definitely the kind of move you don't want to fight blind. With huge hitboxes, super armor, killing potential, and a massive windbox, this move trashes most incorrect attempts at challenging it while also making DK much more difficult to edgeguard.
However once you understand how the move works, it becomes a much different beast; make no mistake, Kong Cyclone is still a good move - it's just not broken good, and there is significant counterplay to it.

From our discussion, the most important thing to do when against a DK using Kong Cylone is not challenge it directly (unless you have a command grab!), shield if you're on the ground (windboxes don't affect shielding opponents!), and time your airdodge (or aerial, if you're feeling risky) correctly if you're caught by it.

There are also a few other basics to keep in mind:
  • Don't let DK go to Battlefield (or Lylat, if you can help it), because then he can ledge-cancel the Kong Cylone to have extremely minimal end-lag. Halberd and Delphino are more stages to strike/ban if you can, as they allow him to Shark with the move
  • Watch out for the fact that this move autocancels; you have to punish before he hits the ground unless he's fairly high up!

Dealing with the Strategy

Frame Data of the move (from DK Frame Data Smash 4)
Windbox | Active Hitbox | Invincibility Frames | Super Armor Frames | Total Frames
Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Free Fall Lag | Ledge Grabs | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Kong Cyclone | 19 , 20-46? , 49 | 71 | | | 1, 1 | 20-45
Kong Cyclone (Air) | 3-6 , 15-39? , 41? | 67? | 40? | 23+? | 1, xx, xx | 3-6 ... 15-35 ... Transitions to the ground version if you land early
Note: @DKwill has claimed that there is Invincibility on the first hitbox, so watch out for that as well
  • General Information
    • DK must to either autocancel or ledge cancel the move
      • The highest I was ever able to get KC to autocancel from in my tests was slightly lower than DK's standing height (around where his mouth normally is, judging visually)
        • (You can test yourself easily; grab XX3X DK, go to Battlefield, stand under one of the low platforms, and Short Hop. From the top of the Short Hop it won't Autocancel, while from just under this height it will)
      • Kong Cyclone can ledge-cancel on any ledge
      • If DK does not successfully do one of these, he will have massive endlag
      • Kong Cyclone always rises the same distance vertically (mashing seems to have no effect)
        • As such, as long as you know the vertical distance it travels you know...
          1. If the opponent mis-used the move, and will be open for punishment or
          2. Where the opponent is forced to go to ledge/autocancel the move (Which will most often be above you, which is a bad position for them to be in)
  • Options to use while Grounded
    • Shield is your best option
      • Windboxes do not affect shielding characters, and the move deals very little shield damage.
        • Make sure you don't get read though, as DK has some good anti-shielding tools (Headbutt, Ground Pound, etc)
    • Well-timed projectiles will stuff this attack, you just have to hit while there's no SuperArmor
    • Grabs work as well
      • If you're on a platform or something, you can simply grab him out of the move between his hitboxes
      • Command grabs work just as well; see the "Further Strategies" section for more info
  • Options to use while Airborne
    • Pay attention to the move, and time your airdodge
      • Avoiding the last hit of the move isn't as difficult as it seems, but you must know the timing for it
    • Use a Multi-Hit aerial
      • If you simply throw out a Multi-Hit aerial (such as :4sheik:/:4greninja:/:4palutena:/:4pit:'s Uair, :4sonic:/:4falco:/:4pit:/:4pikachu:'s Fair, etc), you can easily catch the non-armored parts of the attack. You still have to time the move, but the window is significantly more lenient.
      • The timing to hit him is directly after the first hit, or directly before the 2nd
    • Command Grabs still beat this move, and often work incredibly well for suicide-killing. See the "Further Strategies" section for more info
Further Strategies
  • If you have an aerial command grab, using it almost auto-counters this technique
    • :4ganondorf: Flame Choke, :4wario:Bite, :4robinm::4robinf: Nosferatu (Suicide-kills offstage)
    • :4kirby: Jumping Inhale (Windbox from Kong Cylcone + jump carries them way offstage; can kill or suicide kill)
    • :4mewtwo:Confusion beats it, and leaves Mew2 at an advantage. :4yoshi:'s Egg Lay and Egg Launch do the same
    • :4diddy: Monkey Flip, :4ganondorf:/:4falcon: Uspecials, :4bowser: grab-based Sspecials, etc
  • If :4littlemac:is not hit by the first hitbox of Kong Cyclone, he can Uspecial into the windbox. This sends both him & :4dk: skyrocketing and kills at 50% (FD, no rage). Timing/positioning is very specific, however even if mis-used it kills at around 75%.
  • :rosalina:Can interrupt Kong Cyclone with her Fair, but it works... oddly. The Fair seems to win without fail, however where :4dk: goes after being hit is "incredibly odd and borderline inconsistant"
Video References
Reference: Full Discussion
Overview
Sonic's Spin Dashes are all a core part of his gameplan, and definitely see a lot of use by Sonic players at all levels. Hammer Spin Dash (Side Special #2) is considered to be almost a straight upgrade, however the default Spin Dash is nothing to scoff at either. We'll be focusing almost exclusively on the Side Special variant of Spin Dash in this, however much of it holds true for the Down Special variant as well.

The most important thing in dealing with Spin Dash is to know exactly what options are available to both you and the Sonic's in each situation, and selecting what to do from there. (Hammer) Spin Dash is a very mixup-based move, but once it hits your shield the odds are in your favor, not Sonic's.


Information and Things to Note

  • The charge of the Side Special variant only can be cancelled into shield at any time except when it's fully charged.
    • It's a very low-commitment move, and good Sonic players won't fully charge the move (as you can simply Spin Dash Charge -> Shield -> Spin Dash Charge).
  • The Side Special version has a hop at the beginning, while the Down Special version can be charged quickly by mashing the Special button
  • Sonic can jump out of the hop at the start of Spin Dash (as Hammer Spin Dash has a higher initial hop, this can be used for extra vertical recovery)
  • Sonic can jump while Spin Dashing; this puts him in a special aerial state where he has a hitbox but has full aerial control
    • He also has heavy momentum however, which due to his low aerial friction means he cannot retreat; he can of course fly way past where he started, though
  • Spin Dash actually has very low 'Priority' (disjoint/power), and many attacks when timed correctly will clank with it (or outright beat it)
  • Hammer Spin Dash is intangible during the hop until Sonic starts moving downwards, and buries grounded opponents it hits
  • Hammer Spin Dash takes a shorter amount of time to reach full charge
  • Hammer Spin Dash is silent when released aerially (one less thing to react to)
  • Hammer Spin Dash is slower (downwards hit), and as such is easier to shield on reaction
Dealing with the Move(s)
Shoutouts to @ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos for providing much of the information for this writeup! (Seriously, go read this post after you've read this; it's where I got a lot of the info from, and has some other tidbits as well.)

Anyways, this time I'm going to break things down into each portion of the mixups that this move can do, and then go over the rest at the end.


The First Mixup: Spin Dash Charge
Sonic has a few options while charging up (Hammer) Spin Dash. These are:
  • Hold the Charge: Simply keep charging the move
  • Shield: Instantly cancel the Spin Dash Charge into Shield (does not work once Spin Dash is fully charged!)
  • Jump
    • This puts Sonic in a special jump state; he can move, but cannot release the charge until grounded again.
    • There appears to be only 1 jump height, which puts Sonic airborne for quite some time
    • If Sonic for some reason jumps (or is windboxed) offstage, he will die. He must touch the ground before doing any other option.
  • Release: Simply release the charge (Leads into Mixup #2: The Hop)

The Second Mixup: The Hop
Once Sonic releases the Spin Dash, he will hop. During this hop, he has a few options
  • Jump: Sonic can jump out of any portion of the hop by using his midair jump
  • Finish the Hop: Simply follow through with the hop
    • If this portion hits the opponent, it will attack them
    • Default Spin Dash: Simply a weak attack; similar to hitting with the grounded portion of Spin Dash
    • Hammer Spin Dash: Grounds the opponent when coming down, setting them up for a followup (generally Usmash for a kill). Hits aerial opponents upwards, and the initial (upwards) hit sets up for the second (downwards) hit.

The Third Mixup: Spin Dash hitting Shield (and Followups)
Spin Dash, contrary to apparent popular belief, is indeed punishable on shield. It does require a read, however Sonic's options are limited and you are unlikely to get punished even if you select the wrong option (as long as you play smart, of course). His options at this time (and the followups from there) are:
  • Jump upon hitting Shield
    • This puts Sonic above you, and you can either use a quick aerial OoS (if you have one) or chase down his landing options and punish them. He does have a few mixup options here, which are:
      • Using Spring (Up Special) after the jump, then returning down with an autocancelled Dair - Dair only goes the direction he's facing, and should lose to most strong upwards attacks. (Beats OoS aerial)
      • Homing Attack (Neutral Special) - Beats most landing trap options, but is extremely unsafe (both on shield and especially on whiff - spotdodge it!)
  • Spin Dash through the Shield (-> Jump afterwards or simply continue spinning)
    • This puts sonic in a pretty poor position. Many characters can simply use a quick/ranged OoS option to hit him.

There are further uses to Spin Dash, and an even greater number of other applications for Hammer Spin Dash. A few of these are
  • Escaping Juggles - Hammer Spin Dash is intangible (effectively invincible) for the majority of the move's startup (Frame unknown, but can safely trigger and avoid Bomb-omb & Smart Bomb Explosions), and can be jumped out of
  • Recovery (and extending followups) - Hammer Spin Dash (and to a lesser extent Spin Dash) both jump upwards and can be jumped out of. This can be used to gain extra height on a second jump to chase aerial opponents as well. This can only be done if Sonic still has his double jump.
  • Killing - While not an amazing killing tool, if Sonic grounds you at higher percents he can get an often lightly-charged Usmash (or Fsmash) for the kill (or even just for damage at lower percents)
    • At low percents the initial hits of Usmash won't un-ground you, so you should either not mash or mash very slowly if you see the Usmash coming.
    • Alternatively, if Sonic charges his smash for too long you can escape by mashing extremely fast

Reference: Full Discussion
Starting Post -> Ending Post
Overview
Pikachu has a few customs which are considered to be extremely good; Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave. While Heavy Skull Bash is relatively straightforward (it's only strong up close!), Thunder Wave is another beast altogether. If landed (under very specific circumstances) it can even lead into an infinite combo!

Though the infinite is hardly relevant (it's extremely unsafe and situational to set up, while also requiring a massive downgrade to one of Pikachu's best tools, Quick Attack), there are a number of other things that Thunder wave can do, so it's still something to watch out for.

Information and Things to Note about Thunder Wave

  • Thunder Wave is a projectile with a similar path (though less range and damage) as the default Thunder Jolt which paralyzes on contact.
  • Thunder Wave is extremely unsafe on block when used at the spacing required for the infinite
  • The Stun Time is based on your percent, and is lessened with distance. The aerial hitbox of thunder wave does not appear to get weaker as it travels, however.
Dealing with the Move
Although the infinite isn't relevant due to Meteor Quick Attack, the initial part can still set up for kills from Heavy Skull Bash.

Luckily, the Thunder Wave chain must be set up from a very specific spacing (or off of a missed tech), which also happens to be massively unsafe on shield. Pikachu has a few setups into the technique - namely Nair & Fthrow - but if you tech you'll be safe from this followup.
Make sure your teching is on point when against a Pikachu player! (This holds true for non-customs as well)

That said, if the opposing Pikachu catches you in the Thunder Wave chain, your only real option appears to be pray they mess up.

I'm also going to throw in a little note down here: I don't have any way of testing this, but it appears that if Pikachu is way above you and uses Thunder Wave he can potentially still get the infinite setup while not putting himself at much risk. This is because the aerial version of Thunder Wave stuns at full strength, so if he chooses to commit to it Pikachu can follow right behind the projectile. In theory, Pikachu can simply Quick Attack away if a punish attempt appears to be incoming.

I'm unsure of how safe this actually is however, and it's incredibly easy to react to and simply move out of the way (or shield).

Reference: Full Discussion
Starting Post -> Ending Post
Overview
Luigi, a character who's never been considered very strong in past games, finally has his time to shine here in Smash 4. One of the biggest changes allowing him to become a high-tier contender in this game is the massive reward he gets from his Dthrow, and the ability to set up his dash grab with a well-timed Fireball certainly helps as well!
When fighting Luigi, your best option is to take advantage of his poor mobility and keep him out with projectiles/disjointed moves/etc. When he gets in, it's not just his grab to be scared of!
If you've already been caught by his grab though, you definitely need to know what your DI options are.

Once you've been grabbed by Luigi, you need to keep in mind what percent you're at and mix up your DI from there. You'll certainly be taking damage, but it's always better to take less damage!


Information and Things to Note

  • Fireball to Grab setup
    • At Max Fireball range, :4luigi: can grab you both on Block and on Hit.
    • At 3/4ths max Fireball distance, :4luigi: can only get a guaranteed grab on Block.
    • At 1/2 max Fireball range and under, :4luigi: doesn't get anything guaranteed (You leave shield/hitstun at the same time as or even before Luigi ends the Fireball throwing animation)
  • Most of :4luigi:'s Dthrow followups are guaranteed, to a point. He is essentially guaranteed something no matter the DI, however he has to react to (or anticipate) your DI correctly to get the reward. You'll have to mix things up to avoid the maximum damage!
  • :4luigi:'s main weakness as a character is that he has low mobility. If you play patiently, with strong zoning and/or Hit-and-Run tactics, :4luigi:has a hard time. This should be your main gameplan going into any match against :4luigi:!
Dealing with the Moves
First up, Fireball.

As stated earlier, Luigi can get guaranteed grabs off of a Fireball confirm at different ranges. Use this table to know how to avoid these:
Portion of Max Fireball Range | Grabbable on Shield? | Grabbable on Hit?
1/2 or less | No | No
~3/4ths | Yes | No
Max Range | Yes | Yes

The general rule is that if you're at max range, you need to run away (or jump, or otherwise avoid it). Whether you block (even if you Perfect Shield!) or get hit, you'll get grabbed and Dthrown and nobody wants that.

At half range, take the hit (if you can; at higher percents this is likely a bad idea due to increased hitstun) and punish the grab attempt.

At close range, laugh that the Luigi used Fireball point-blank and hit him for it (or retreat depending on the situation).


Next, we have the main section: Luigi's Dthrow.

At Low Percents (0% to 20%), depending on your character :4luigi:gets Fair into Nair, Fair, or Uair. Doesn't really seem DI-able, but I'd recommend Up+Away from :4luigi:because that seems to at least make it more difficult.
If you have an aerial that is frame 3-6 it will beat any re-grab attempts, however he can shield the aerial and grab you. It's a 50:50 situation, so be sure to mix it up!
:4luigi: can also get a strong (spike) Dair that sets up for a Grab (but it's not a true combo - hit them for it!). He can also go for Utilt chains or Jab/Dtilt stuff after this.


At Mid-Low Percents (21% to 48%), Fair still leads into Nair, Fair, or Uair. Only specific characters can be re-grabbed at this percent range.
During this range, you can DI up & towards :4luigi: to pop up above him. He can still hit you here, but if he misses the read then Fair will hit you behind him meaning he can only get you with a late Uair/Bair as a followup. If he does read it, :4luigi:can get a Uair chain or a strong Dair to re-grab attempt.
If :4luigi:reads your reaction after the Fair, he can Double Jump into other moves (depending on what your reaction was). Fast-falled late Nair sets up for more combos is one common one.
Also, the Tilt chains and jab setups stop working at around 30%.


At Mid Percents (49% to ~70%), re-grabs are no longer possible. DI-ing towards :4luigi:will put you above him, and doing so allows Fair to combo into itself longer than usual (but if he mis-reads it, you're only getting Fair->Bair'd).

Also... NEVER AIRDODGE. You'll hit the ground and be helpless. While this can avoid percentage, it also puts you on the ground in lag, and all :4luigi:has to do is FF into a Fire Jump Punch (sweetspot Uspecial) which kills at these percents!


At Mid-High Percents (71% to 100%), things are similar to Mid Percents however rising Nair will hit you upwards, and set up for basically anything :4luigi:wants to do (though he has to react correctly). Mix up your DI here as well, because aerial FJP does start killing at these percents however it requires a DI read (and a whiff gets you a hard punish!). Luigi Cyclone starts killing at around 90% as well if you don't know how to DI it!


At High Percents (100% and up), Luigi Cyclone starts killing.
Bair kills horizontally at around 120% (with 50% rage), but DI-ing away from :4luigi:makes this harder to land (though also puts you closer to the blast line if he does get it).
Nair kills at ~150% staled a bit (which is likely).
Fire Jump Punch (sweetspotted Uspecial) kills everyone at 107% (give or take ~10% depending on the character).
Uthrow kills at 170%, as a last resort.



Also, you will need to know how to deal with Luigi Cyclone.
If you (S)DI this move downwards, you will escape the move if they mash all the way up. You will still be caught if they lessen their mashing, however this is still preferable because it means the final, killing blow doesn't connect as high up (and therefore you have to travel further to die). If you DI the move horizontally, you can survive until around 120%-140% depending on your character!



Conclusion
Luigi is a character with ridiculously high reward from his Dthrow, and while it's all more or less guaranteed you can minimize the damage if you out-guess him in a bunch of 50:50 situations. With the knowledge of the mixups available to each of you, hopefully you'll be able to escape some damage from :4luigi:'s Dthrow combos.
And always remember: :4luigi:is only scary up close, so if you can keep him away from you you'll win!


Reference: Full Discussion

Overview
Mii Brawler is an extremely strong character with reliable, sub 80% kills against players who don't know how to fight him.
Since few people have Brawler matchup experience (not allowed on For Glory combined with the relative lack of Mii mains due to rulesets being up in the air regarding their legality), this makes the problem that much worse and the cries for him being 'broken' even louder.
While I'm no expert on the MU (I have minimal experience myself), hopefully I've found enough information to at least help people out!

Information and Things to Note about Mii Brawler

First things first: If you missed it, the One Inch Punch exploit has been patched out of the game (this happened as of the Mewtwo patch)! I've still heard a few people talk about this lately, so I figured it needed to be stated.

Anyways...
  • As with all Mii Fighters, :4miibrawl: can come with any of 9 different (not simply attribute changes, completely different) special moves.
  • Also like all other Mii Fighters, :4miibrawl: can come in one of many (2,916 to be exact!) Height and Weight combinations.
    • Luckily the differences between Height and Weight on the :4mii:s don't change them super drastically (though it still definitely affects a lot about them).
    • General categories are "Tall", "Medium", and "Short" for heights, and "Fat", "Average", and "Thin" for weights. For :4miibrawl: the preferred versions seem to be Short & Thin (0/0), Short & Fat (0/100) or Default (seemingly only when the rules don't allow anything but guest :4miif:s).
    • Mii Fighter Attributes & Changes Reference:
      • Short (Minimum Height)
        • Faster speed (much faster)
        • Higher jumps
        • Less cooldown on attacks (less end/landing lag)
        • Smaller Hurtbox (harder to hit)
        • Less knockback on attacks (Very slight; ~1% difference)
        • Less range on most (not all) attacks
        • Less distance on Rolls
      • Tall (Maximum Height)
        • More knockback on attacks (Very slight; ~1% difference)
        • More range on most (not all) attacks
        • More distance on Rolls
        • Bigger Hurtbox (easier to hit)
        • Lower jumps
        • More cooldown on attacks (more end/landing lag)
      • Thin (Minimum Weight)
        • Faster Speed (slight)
        • Higher Jumps
        • Lighter weight (dies earlier)
        • Does less damage (generally by 1%)
        • Less hitstun on attacks (very slight; due to damage reduction)
      • Fat (Maximum Weight)
        • Heavier weight (dies later)
        • Does more damage (generally by 1%)
        • More hitstun on attacks (very slight, due to damage increase)
        • Slower speed (slight)
        • Lower jumps
  • Helicopter Kick's power comes largely from it's high Base Knockback, which makes Brawler's kill power heavily dependent on stage positioning.
  • Brawler's general attributes:
    • Extremely High mobility specs, both on the ground and in the air. (I'll update this with speed rankings for the different sizes later)
    • :4miibrawl: is a Rushdown character.
    • :4miibrawl:Has great throw followup potential (including kills at extremely low percents, even around 45% depending on where you're grabbed!)
    • Predictable (but deadly if challenged wrong) recovery. Generally short range, as his 2 best Uspecials (Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch) have relatively low vertical range. Horizontal recovery is fine, though.
    • Below-average range (even shorter as Short :4miibrawl:)
    • Fast, high-damage, lingering aerials with high combo potential (Dthrow -> Falling 1st hit of Fair can 'Pillar', similar to Melee :falcomelee:)
    • Can have a projectile; his default Neutral Special is "Shot Put" is a very unique projectile with an interesting trajectory. I highly recommend trying it out to see it's path and range, as I don't have a gif to provide.
  • Common custom loadouts
    • 1122 (Shot Put, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)
    • 2122 (Ultimate Uppercut, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)
    • 1132 (Shot Put, Onslaught, Piston Punch, Feint Jump)
    • 2132 (Ultimate Uppercut, Onslaught, Piston Punch, Feint Jump)
    • 2222 aka "The Apex Ruleset Version" (Ultimate Uppercut, Burning Dropkick, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)
Dealing with the Character
Mii Brawler is a speedy powerhouse who can easily wrack damage and even kill with Dthrow -> Helicopter kick as low as 45% if you're not careful. However, if you can live past where he has easy setups into kill moves, he actually has a more difficult time killing you as he has to rely on reads with his Smash attacks.

As such, your goal should be to survive until high (~80%+) percents and play safely from there!
This is, of course, much easier said than done. What you need to pay the most attention to, however, is your stage positioning.

Also... Don't let him take you to Smashville. It's easily his best stage, and can get you killed at 0% if you're on the platform!


:4miibrawl:'s Dthrow to Helicopter Kick is an incredibly good kill option, however it only kills if you're grabbed near the edges of the stage! If you're in the middle of the stage (or facing across the stage, of course, but then watch out for pivot grabs!) you're generally fairly safe, since Helicopter Kick doesn't seem to have that high of Knockback Growth (increased distance with damage).

If you do get caught in the Helicopter Kick, you still have a few things you can do.
  1. Smash DI (or just DI if you can't SDI) inwards for the first few hits. This gives you a chance to pop out, and also pushes you further from the blast zone (which of course lets you live longer)
  2. Hold inwards (towards the stage) for the final hit as survival VI.
Also, if you get caught in a Dthrow and think you're about to be Helicopter Kicked, you should DI towards the stage. This is the DI you should be doing as the Helicopter Kick happens, and it also forces them to react to your DI or they miss! On top of this, it also moves you that little bit further from the blast zone, meaning you live longer as well!

If you get caught in :4miibrawl:'s Fair strings, you'll apparently want to VI down & towards the stage.

Also, @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster (one of the driving forces behind this character; he definitely knows his stuff) has this to say:
Sometimes when you're at that golden percentage its just better to stay in the middle of the stage even if it means to get hit. Infact you probably want to get hit on purpose so his kill potential tremendously decreases. Like if he's charging at you when you're at the ledge, roll behind him, even if he reads it there will be nothing in his arsenal that will be able to kill you at the golden percentage, and if he does damage you, you exit that golden percentage. So its a win-win situation for you. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to let yourself get hit, but it really works against this character.
Conclusion
In the end, the most important thing to do against Brawler is to stay in the middle of the stage, and even take chip damage until you're out of Dthrow->Helicopter Kick range.
As @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster stated, if you're at the ledge you'll probably want to roll through him - even if you get punished, you're closer to center stage so you're very unlikely to die and you're that much closer to the percent where :4miibrawl: requires a read to kill you.
Also, as :4miibrawl: has relatively low range, you'll want to try and space him out with quick, disjointed moves; these apparently give him a lot of trouble!

Reference: Full Discussion

Also, shoutouts to @Esquire for making his Brawler Guide - it's where I got a lot of the Mii data from.



Small Tips & Info
A section about things that don't really deserve a full week of discussion, but still are good to know.

Zero Suit Samus' Boost Kick is a very powerful attack, and an amazingly good (albeit risky) Out of Shield option.
Don't give up on your stock once you've been hit by it, though! Depending on a number of factors, you may very well be able to get out of it (or at least DI it to survive!)

First things first: the larger your character's frame is, the less likely you are to get out of this (:4bowser:, :4charizard:, :4dedede:, :4dk:, :4rob:, etc - sorry, you're probably just getting hit. Work on that survival DI!).

Anyways, the way Boost Kick actually works is as follows:
  1. On Frame 4, the initial hitbox comes out. This is supposed to set up for the rest of the attack, but it's actually one of the move's weak points! This attack can be DI'd, and depending on which way you DI the :4zss:player has to call you on which way you hit during the next portion of Boost Kick.
  2. The next part of the move involves a handful of very weak hits as :4zss:carries you up into the air. During this portion of the move, the :4zss:can hold Forwards or Backwards and angle the move (try it out, the angle change is very noticeable). This is the portion where the :4zss:player can follow your DI, guaranteeing the hit (...more or less. Boost Kick just has issues connecting on occasion, but it's not very common. Generally has to do with the spacing on the initial hit)
  3. Last is the powerful spinning kick, which is the part that kills. If you mixed up your DI correctly (or the :4zss: mis-spaced the Boost Kick), you're likely to simply fall out (or pop out above the kick) and survive; many characters can even punish :4zss: for this by fast falling into a punish! However if you're hit, the DI you need to do changes depending on your height.
    1. If you're near the top of the screen, DI down and away from :4zss:. You'll fly further horizontally, but it seems to transfer a lot of your upwards momentum into horizontal allowing you to survive better.
    2. If you aren't near the top of the screen, hold inwards. This lets you VI the horizontal knockback, and since Boost Kick hits up at an angle you're already likely to be aiming for the corner (aka Survival DI)

Also, Boost Kick has a Brawl carryover known as "RCO Lag" (Recovery CarryOver Lag) or "The Triple Jump Glitch", which is an extremely annoying bug where if you're hit out of a move and then land normally (no attack endlag) afterwards, you'll still incur all the landing lag from the move you used previously.

Basically, if you can say, jab :4zss:out of Boost Kick and she hits the ground afterwards, she isn't able to move for almost a full second (this timeframe is a total guess, by the way; just guessing by feel). This lets you get a free punish, often times with a Smash.

I highly recommend against trying to go for this (if you mess up you're eating the Boost Kick, which is... strong, to say the least) but if it ever happens, keep that in mind!

Hopefully it gets patched soon:urg:
 
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Jaxas

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(By the way, if anyone can come up with a better name for this thread please let me know; I'm bad at stuff like that.)


Anyways, lets start our first two discussions.

Topic #1: What to do after you've been grabbed by Diddy Kong
Initial questions we need to answer (basically just off the top of my head):
  • What direction should you DI (at what general percents)?
  • What should your first action be when you exit hitstun (Jump, Air Dodge, Aerial, etc)?
I still see top players not DIing or reacting to Diddys dthrow correctly, for example.

Yes, it can be done fast and sometimes you might not be able to react to it.. but most of the time -> learn to react to it faster / more consistent.
You got dthrown by Diddy Kong and he tries to follow up with an uair where it could KO you... please DI behind Diddy and remember to hold away since vectoring works even while you're experiencing the knockback-flight, and mash jump - don't airdodge. If you airdodge you give Diddy the opportunity to land an uair after the airdodge. If you try to jump away you'll almost always be able to either DI the uair if it can still connect (if you're at high % and Diddy is at low %) or you can jump away in time. There could be a window where it truly connects and you die from it, but then it's very slim and most likely won't occur. To DI the uair just keep holding away like while you're trying to DI / vector the dthrow. If he fairs, quickly put the controlstick in the other direction to vector against that.

I'm not saying Diddy is easy to deal with or that this is a foolproof thing against him, it's just something I noticed very very many players do wrong and die from, even though they could've avoided it easily.

Topic #2: Dealing with Explosive Balloon Trip + Trip Sapling Villager attempting to camp the ledge
I'm going to go through the Character Competitive Impressions thread and quote some of the things said there here, but it'll take a bit.
I'll edit this post once I get that sorted out!

EDIT:
Alright, now complete with quotes:
The solution to ADHD's villager: Delfino, Skyloft, Wuhu.
I'll be honest. It's tiring to fight a villager who ledgecamps. It's a lot of focus, and every percent counts, and the match mainly hinges on the first stock, and the absolute best way to win is to get the percent lead and never approach, ever.
I think camping Villager in general is a double-edged sword, customs or no. Yeah if Villager gets the lead then he can hold onto it probably better than anyone, but if he falls behind he has to somehow make up that deficit with his very lopsided moveset. It's been months since it happened, but there was that online invitational hosted by Clash Tournaments where a Villager fought Zero's Diddy and just wasn't able to flip things around once he lost the life lead.
He needs to have that trip sapling up near the ledge in order to keep the opponent away and capitalize on a trip if they get too impatient. Once people start learning the time it takes for the sapling to disappear they can wait it out in shield and then occupy that space preventing Villager from putting it back up.

He also relies a lot on the exploding balloons to keep people from punishing him and damaging the opponent before they can get their hitboxes out to punish his 2nd ledge grab. I could be wrong but it seems to me like the balloons fly up almost all the time to the same locations, if you learn where they go you could find a spot to stay and get that punish off without getting hit by the explosions.

Something else that seems very effective is ledge trumping and stage spiking. Villager's recovery is pretty predictable so an experienced player could very easily ledge trump villager seeing as he can't do much else but grab the ledge out of his up b. As for stage spiking, it won't kill Villager but it will tack on some damage which is really all you need, the exploding balloons might make that hard though.

All you really need to beat this strat is to get a lead on Villager and run away, forcing him to approach to revert the situation (which isn't exactly his strong suit), and by forcing him to approach you have already undone his gameplan.
Tl;dr: Anytime you have the lead you are "winning" and don't have to approach. The opponents job is to take the lead from you. If a Villager (or any character) is camping you, get the damage lead and they will be forced to approach you from whatever their effective range is. If someone is just ledge camping, they lose invincibility on the regrab so you can throw out a hitbox that hits below the stage and potentially kill them.
Balloon trip does not auto ledge snap there is clearly a frame delay before ledge grabs are enabled and its not a fast rise regardless. If you explode the thing there is basically no ledge snap at all until the descent/apex.
Your balloons only explode when someone a) hits them b) you up B again. For the balloon explosion to catch someone standing right on the ledge, you have to up special basically immediately, but you wont ledge snap immediately again so, they can shield this and aim to punish with a dtilt or possible run off B-air. If you delay it so you get the auto snap then your balloons wont hit them when it explodes.

The means of controlling them from standing on the edge is to put a timber counter sapling on the edge. If a timber counter sapling is on the edge, then you can well wait till it expires and catch him when he attempts to replant it. If he doesn't replant it you just make your way to the edge. Lloyd and slingshot can be dealt with the same as default.

Wii fit trainer probably doesn't even have to bother if she has her heavy knockback resistance Deep breathing custom. So long as the counter sapling isnt there the balloons knockback wont phase her anyways and with no ledge invincibility she'll just hit Villager.

Basically: Villager can choose early and late detonate. Early doesn't ledge snap but hits them on the edge. Late snaps but basically hits them where they would be if they get-up rolled. Rocket and Slingshot from the ledge already happen in default. Charizard can probably D-smash for instance on reaction to hit Villager regardless of his snap option. Pit would just stand on the inside given he has fast Smashes. Marth could stand on the inside for a runoff/trump B-air or would go the roll distance and possibly Fsmash if Villager goofs his ledge snap not that he'll really care regardless Marth has the speed to blow the entire thing open, and throwing away your ledge invincibility consistently would eventually end up in a Tipper Fsmash. Im almost positive Ike can hit tempest within time and if he does so Villager is basically dead since you'll get blown back. If you pop the balloons which don't ledge snap Ike gets a free...whatever the hell he wants (aka Tempest again).
Link, Toon Link, Samus can throw bombs. Jigglypuff will just weave under. Kirby will stone villager if not trump B-air. If its meteor stone this entire strategy might end up in sub 2 minute matches (for either side lol). Pikachu will already Tjolt or trump.Flipping Swordfighter will trump and sword fighter aerials are well suited for it. Given no ledge snap, Mario/Doc can gust cape or go for the B-air. Eh just a lot of characters that will B-air it. The problem with B-air is that they'll most likely trade which is dangerous since they then have to recover afterwards. Won't be a big deal to some characters.
I think several characters can deal with this if they switch to their version of up b that gains more height. Now just run off and make it a fight for the ledge vs Villager.
Use a disjointed/invincible hitbox to get villager off the ledge without touching the balloons. (ie: Fire hydrant, stone Kirby, thunder jolt, etc)
Or just gain the lead and run away to force him in the offensive.
 
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deepseadiva

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Thread title idea: "How to Deal with Jank: Diddy Dthrow and Villager @ Ledge"

Excellent thread idea! Posting to subscribe mostly.
 

Jaxas

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Thread title idea: "How to Deal with Jank: Diddy Dthrow and Villager @ Ledge"

Excellent thread idea! Posting to subscribe mostly.
I like it a lot better than my title, so I'm using this now. Thanks!

Anyways, I updated my previous post with a bunch of quotes like I said. From what I can tell from them, the recommended ways to deal with (Custom) Villager's Ledge-camping mostly involve:
  • Taking him to a stage where the strategy doesn't work in the first place (Delphino Plaza, Skyloft Wuhu)
  • Hitting him with a Windbox after he pops the balloons (kills him regardless of %)
  • Getting the percent lead and forcing him to approach (where Villager is relatively weak)
  • Wait for the Sapling to disappear and either punish Villager's attempt to plant another tree
  • Take advantage of the lack of ledge-regrab invincibility and just hit him (will probably have to wait out the trip sapling)
  • Ledge trump Villager into a punish (Damage is all you really need)
  • Attack Villager's weak spot(s): Above (and Below, if applicable)
  • Use a disjointed/invincible attack or arcing projectile to hit him without popping the balloons
Most of these seem to revolve around the idea of "get the percent lead and then forcing an approach (or win by timeout)", which seems to be the most basic and straightforward way of dealing with the strategy (if you don't have a Windbox/aren't on a transforming/travelling stage).

Does anyone else have anything to add? I may be closing this one early as there was a lot of discussion about it, even though it was in another thread.

Also, does anyone have ideas on how to counter the above answers to the original strategy?
 

deepseadiva

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No mention of Pikachu?

Suggested counter characters would be a good thing to list as well.
 

Teshie U

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Pretty universal option is to just stand at the ledge and shield. He doesn't have a command grab, and almost nothing shield pokes in this game. After he grabs the ledge and the world explodes, drop your shield and use whatever you would normally use when someone grabbed the ledge a 2nd time. Scoop him off of the ledge with your upsmashes/special out of shield or use a low hitting aerial or tilt. You don't need to counterpick him or camp him to win this. He is putting himself in very defined lag over and over and giving up grab mixups and quite a bit of recovery range (though he has plenty to spare) for his up B.

If you are using one of the many characters that outcamp villager, then you do kind of get a free pass on dealing with mixups though.
 

Plain Yogurt

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I like this idea. I see people asking DI questions in character discussion all the time.

I came in hoping to suggest something for Sheik, but thinking about it is there anything actually janky about Sheik? She's extremely good but outside of maybe needle camping you into making mistakes her strength seems to stem mostly from her awesome frame data over any stupid strategy. Maybe we could talk Penetrating Needles?
 

Strangelove13

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Great idea! About time we start tackling these divisive moves and try to build a knowledge base of how they work and ways we can counter them

Also, it would be extremely good if we could get input from the pro players who fought against this strategy at the highest of levels, whenever they have time to do it of course. (@ Jtails Jtails and @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster ). Their posts should be highlighted and given more exposure I feel.

I feel that a thread like this could really help everyone out there interested in playing smash at any level really.
 

Teshie U

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Penetrating Needles are nice, but when I play sheik, I find myself missing the range. A projectile like that would be very interesting for a character that dealt more in shield pressure than grabs and pokes, but somehow that strong feature feels so strange for her.

On the topic of Villager, I feel like camping on stage with the sapling is much more optimal as villager can remain unpredictable while having braindead ground coverage and useful kill options like bowling ball and grab.
 

Jaxas

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No mention of Pikachu?

Suggested counter characters would be a good thing to list as well.
I don't feel like this strategy requires a character switch, but I could certainly add that he has a really easy time with it. Most anyone with a (ranged) windbox also wrecks this strategy, but I'll definitely note that once I mark this discussion as closed.

I like this idea. I see people asking DI questions in character discussion all the time.

I came in hoping to suggest something for Sheik, but thinking about it is there anything actually janky about Sheik? She's extremely good but outside of maybe needle camping you into making mistakes her strength seems to stem mostly from her awesome frame data over any stupid strategy. Maybe we could talk Penetrating Needles?
I'm thinking of adding how to DI when you're grabbed by Sheik (avoid Dthrow->Uair and/or Fthrow->Bouncing Fish), and maybe looking into way to punish needle camping (standard & penetrating).


EDIT:
Great idea! About time we start tackling these divisive moves and try to build a knowledge base of how they work and ways we can counter them

Also, it would be extremely good if we could get input from the pro players who fought against this strategy at the highest of levels, whenever they have time to do it of course. (@ Jtails Jtails and @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster ). Their posts should be highlighted and given more exposure I feel.

I feel that a thread like this could really help everyone out there interested in playing smash at any level really.
That's a great idea, thanks for tagging them!
 
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DEEK4Y

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Sheik's throw follow-ups true combo on most DI options up to the 50% range with a good chunk of the cast. The follow up options vary by percentage, DI and character selection all of which can be found on the sheik boards.
 
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Jaxas

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Sheik's throw follow-ups true combo on most DI options up to the 50% range with a good chunk of the cast. The follow up options vary by percentage, DI and character selection all of which can be found on the sheik boards.
Yeah, that is correct. It's particularly important to know how to avoid being killed off of a grab at high percents, however.

Also, as far as Diddy Kong's Dthrow:

Basically, at this point it looks like at low % (around up to 30%?) it's guaranteed. Probably hold up and away (the direction you're being thrown) to increase knockback, meaning you only get 1 Uair guaranteed. Also jump, don't Air Dodge or he'll just hit you after the AD.

Can someone correct me if this is wrong, and/or expand upon this? It's how I've been DIing the throw up to now, but I'm not actually sure it's correct...
 

Jtails

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I'm interested in contributing when I have time to construct a well thought out and written reply. Thanks for the inclusion!
 

Jaxas

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Stuff about Villager ledge camping: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...-initial-release.381395/page-46#post-18786797

I'd also talk about Diddy's U-Throw, rather than his D-throw.
Awesome, thanks. And as for the Uthrow, I'm actually planning on getting how to DI Dthrow at low percents, how to DI Uthrow at higher percents, and what the Diddy can do about it (if you hold up to escape the followup and he F/Bthrows you, you die from it earlier).

Still trying to get a solid idea of exactly how to DI the Dthrow though, for now. Any knowledge would still be appreciated, though!
 

thehard

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Oh good @ Jaxas Jaxas you did this before me :') I was starting to lose the motivation anyway.
 

Jigglymaster

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Villager.... yes, ADHD was the first ever Villager that I ever played against that deployed that strategy against me. Granted, I knew of said strategy when I first saw ZeRo's video on it and then watching ADHD play in the tournament, so I was able to muster up a good idea on how to win that matchup with my own character.

First off, the timber counter, for him to set this move up he has to take the time to actually plant it. When he plants it, it takes a moment for the hitbox to appear meaning that there is time he is vulnerable doing it. Because I'm a fast character who enjoys dashing and grabbing, the moment he plants that sapling is my cue to run in and get a free grab, my character grab will slide past the sapling and I will be free to do any throw as I see fit, which in the case for Mii Brawler is a d-throw into a helicopter kick for a nice 20-22%.

Now, for his second move, the exploding balloons. First off before we even get into the match, I thought carefully about the stage striking. I wanted to have the largest stage possible with the smallest horizontal blastzones. Since I knew he only wanted to stay on the ledge, I would want as much stage for myself to run away if I got the lead or have a breathing area where none of his attacks from the ledge would hit me. Going to a stage such as BF or SV would be problematic due to their small size, there is less breathing room for me to work with. So instead I tried to go for FD, Town and City, or Lylat. I ended up getting Town and City which was probably the best choice out of them all. The ledge is insanely close to the horizontal blast zone, its big and there are platforms for me to jump safely to.

Onto the match itself, first thing was first, try to approach him before he gets to the ledge, if it doesn't work out and you take damage, losing the lead, its okay. Just go back to the other side of the stage and safely charge up the Ultimate Uppercut. Now, like others have said, shielding right next to the ledge is the perfect thing to do because Villager doesn't have much he can do to stop it. Wait for the balloons to not cover him the right way when he re-grabs the ledge, then just punish it like you normally would, in Mii Brawler's case a d-tilt will work, and due to my labbing experience, d-tilt into Helicopter Kick is a combo. Getting some damage on him was a start. I knew for a fact that it didn't matter how much damage I received this first stock, if he ever wanted to kill me, he would have to eventually play my own game where, Mii Brawler wins. I believe at one point in the match he grew the sapling into a tree and either made an input error coming up onto the stage instead of re-grabbing the ledge, or was just trying to kill me. Regardless, I threw out the Ultimate Uppercut and got the kill. At this point I had a heavy advantage. No longer having to approach him, he had to play my game now, which he was losing pretty badly, it took him about 50% before he could finish off my stock, and when he did kill me there was about 1:50 left on the clock, using up all my time I had on the re-spawn platform I went back to my side of the stage, still forcing him to approach. We fought some more, and while he was able to damage me I was able to damage him as well. Then with about a minute left I knew that Mii Brawler had the mobility on such a large stage as this that he would be unable to kill me or deal 50% in less than a minute. It ended up being true and I won by a safe 40%.
 

Strangelove13

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Villager.... yes, ADHD was the first ever Villager that I ever played against that deployed that strategy against me. Granted, I knew of said strategy when I first saw ZeRo's video on it and then watching ADHD play in the tournament, so I was able to muster up a good idea on how to win that matchup with my own character.

First off, the timber counter, for him to set this move up he has to take the time to actually plant it. When he plants it, it takes a moment for the hitbox to appear meaning that there is time he is vulnerable doing it. Because I'm a fast character who enjoys dashing and grabbing, the moment he plants that sapling is my cue to run in and get a free grab, my character grab will slide past the sapling and I will be free to do any throw as I see fit, which in the case for Mii Brawler is a d-throw into a helicopter kick for a nice 20-22%.

Now, for his second move, the exploding balloons. First off before we even get into the match, I thought carefully about the stage striking. I wanted to have the largest stage possible with the smallest horizontal blastzones. Since I knew he only wanted to stay on the ledge, I would want as much stage for myself to run away if I got the lead or have a breathing area where none of his attacks from the ledge would hit me. Going to a stage such as BF or SV would be problematic due to their small size, there is less breathing room for me to work with. So instead I tried to go for FD, Town and City, or Lylat. I ended up getting Town and City which was probably the best choice out of them all. The ledge is insanely close to the horizontal blast zone, its big and there are platforms for me to jump safely to.

Onto the match itself, first thing was first, try to approach him before he gets to the ledge, if it doesn't work out and you take damage, losing the lead, its okay. Just go back to the other side of the stage and safely charge up the Ultimate Uppercut. Now, like others have said, shielding right next to the ledge is the perfect thing to do because Villager doesn't have much he can do to stop it. Wait for the balloons to not cover him the right way when he re-grabs the ledge, then just punish it like you normally would, in Mii Brawler's case a d-tilt will work, and due to my labbing experience, d-tilt into Helicopter Kick is a combo. Getting some damage on him was a start. I knew for a fact that it didn't matter how much damage I received this first stock, if he ever wanted to kill me, he would have to eventually play my own game where, Mii Brawler wins. I believe at one point in the match he grew the sapling into a tree and either made an input error coming up onto the stage instead of re-grabbing the ledge, or was just trying to kill me. Regardless, I threw out the Ultimate Uppercut and got the kill. At this point I had a heavy advantage. No longer having to approach him, he had to play my game now, which he was losing pretty badly, it took him about 50% before he could finish off my stock, and when he did kill me there was about 1:50 left on the clock, using up all my time I had on the re-spawn platform I went back to my side of the stage, still forcing him to approach. We fought some more, and while he was able to damage me I was able to damage him as well. Then with about a minute left I knew that Mii Brawler had the mobility on such a large stage as this that he would be unable to kill me or deal 50% in less than a minute. It ended up being true and I won by a safe 40%.
WHY CAN'T I PRESS THE LIKE BUTTON MORE THAN ONCE?

Wonderful post there Dapuffster, this is exactly what we need, I feel like were finally actually trying to understand the game and its various matchups and strategies rather than just complaining about it.

Also, if I may ask, do you feel that there is anything different you could have done? Anything you could have done to perhaps finish the game before time?
 

Piford

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Now, for his second move, the exploding balloons. First off before we even get into the match, I thought carefully about the stage striking. I wanted to have the largest stage possible with the smallest horizontal blastzones. Since I knew he only wanted to stay on the ledge, I would want as much stage for myself to run away if I got the lead or have a breathing area where none of his attacks from the ledge would hit me. Going to a stage such as BF or SV would be problematic due to their small size, there is less breathing room for me to work with. So instead I tried to go for FD, Town and City, or Lylat. I ended up getting Town and City which was probably the best choice out of them all. The ledge is insanely close to the horizontal blast zone, its big and there are platforms for me to jump safely to.
Just FYI, pretty much every stage has the same distance to the blastzone as eachother besides battlefield. Town and City is a bit closer than FD and Smashville, but a bit farther than Lylat.
Also you didn't mention what stages would be best for counterpicking. I assume Delfino Plaza would be the best (tied with Skyloft and Wuhu Island if you found them legal), but it's likely that he'd strike that so what stages would you go to after it? Castle Siege is has walk-off which means he can't stall at the ledge, and Halberd does transform which can force a reset, plus its about as big as duck hunt with relatively close side blast zones in the second form. The first it's about the same size as battle field with blastzones sightly bigger than the rest of the other stages.
 

Jigglymaster

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Also, if I may ask, do you feel that there is anything different you could have done? Anything you could have done to perhaps finish the game before time?
There was one point in the match where I grabbed him, d-throw into u-air onto the platform. I went for a 2nd grab and had I gotten it, it would've been a Helicopter Kick death combo at 40%. However I miscalculated and dash grabbed past him and missed. The game would've been MUCH easier had I gotten that.

Just FYI, pretty much every stage has the same distance to the blastzone as eachother besides battlefield. Town and City is a bit closer than FD and Smashville, but a bit farther than Lylat.
Also you didn't mention what stages would be best for counterpicking. I assume Delfino Plaza would be the best (tied with Skyloft and Wuhu Island if you found them legal), but it's likely that he'd strike that so what stages would you go to after it? Castle Siege is has walk-off which means he can't stall at the ledge, and Halberd does transform which can force a reset, plus its about as big as duck hunt with relatively close side blast zones in the second form. The first it's about the same size as battle field with blastzones sightly bigger than the rest of the other stages.
Besides Delfino, the best CPs for this stage would probably be
Town and City (Big Stage)
Halberd (Probably would use Piston Punch instead of Helicopter Kick here)
Castle Siege
Lylat (Because the stage tilting hurt's villager's projectile game from the ledge)
Duck Hunt (Big stage)
FD (Big Stage)

Stages you'd want to ban are
Kongo Jungle (Large blastzones)
Smashville (Tiny Stage)
Battlefield (Tiny Stage)
 

ParanoidDrone

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There was one point in the match where I grabbed him, d-throw into u-air onto the platform. I went for a 2nd grab and had I gotten it, it would've been a Helicopter Kick death combo at 40%. However I miscalculated and dash grabbed past him and missed. The game would've been MUCH easier had I gotten that.



Besides Delfino, the best CPs for this stage would probably be
Town and City (Big Stage)
Halberd (Probably would use Piston Punch instead of Helicopter Kick here)
Castle Siege
Lylat (Because the stage tilting hurt's villager's projectile game from the ledge)
Duck Hunt (Big stage)
FD (Big Stage)

Stages you'd want to ban are
Kongo Jungle (Large blastzones)
Smashville (Tiny Stage)
Battlefield (Tiny Stage)
What about Skyloft and Wuhu Island, if they're legal? I assume they'd be on par with Delfino Plaza.
 
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Jaxas

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I'm planning on doing some testing of my own today on DI for Diddy's Uthrow and Dthrow. If anyone has done this already (And I'm sure at least someone has) please let me know so I can get it done faster, though!
 

Jigglymaster

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What about Skyloft and Wuhu Island, if they're legal? I assume they'd be on par with Delfino Plaza.
Probably, but I've never been to a tournament where either of those stages are legal so idk.


Also, further note, there are other ways to beat Villager besides using Mii Brawler.

Some notable character choices.

Pikachu: You all saw what Jtails did
Bowser Jr: Villager can't pocket Up B
Zelda: Villager can't pocket Din's Fire
Little Mac: Smash attacks have super armor, remember? D-smash on the ledge.
Metaknight: Hyper Drill Rush goes through Villager's camping game.
Diddy: He's still Diddy Kong
Ness: Use Lucas' PK thunder custom so that it goes through the balloons and villager
Mii gunner: Grenade Launcher custom should give him tons of trouble

I could go on, there are plenty of characters to counter it.
 
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MINUSTHEFIGHTER

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What about Skyloft and Wuhu Island, if they're legal? I assume they'd be on par with Delfino Plaza.
Though I'm sure this is not the right place to ask, but since you brought it up, why exactly aren't they legal?
 

deepseadiva

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Though I'm sure this is not the right place to ask, but since you brought it up, why exactly aren't they legal?
Very, very weak reasoning.
Let's not derail one of the most productive threads on this board. But @ thehard thehard is right. Wuhu in particular is just going through Smash 4's growing pains - it's pretty legit. @ MINUSTHEFIGHTER MINUSTHEFIGHTER you can find more information about your question in the stage thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-analysis-discussion-thread.367708/
 

Teshie U

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Probably, but I've never been to a tournament where either of those stages are legal so idk.


Also, further note, there are other ways to beat Villager besides using Mii Brawler.

Some notable character choices.

Pikachu: You all saw what Jtails did
Bowser Jr: Villager can't pocket Up B
Zelda: Villager can't pocket Din's Fire
Little Mac: Smash attacks have super armor, remember? D-smash on the ledge.
Metaknight: Hyper Drill Rush goes through Villager's camping game.
Diddy: He's still Diddy Kong
Ness: Use Lucas' PK thunder custom so that it goes through the balloons and villager
Mii gunner: Grenade Launcher custom should give him tons of trouble

I could go on, there are plenty of characters to counter it.
I hate to present dealing with a custom as "choose a different character", as we all saw you do it with a character that doesn't really have optimal options to deal with it.

I was surprised you didn't bring the shotput and just snipe him off of the ledge, but glad you did that without even having to spec for it.


I'm still not understanding the special counterpicks for this. Why delfino, skyloft etc.? Seems risky as anyone can clearly switch to diddy kong and probably gain a bigger advantage.
 

Jigglymaster

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I hate to present dealing with a custom as "choose a different character", as we all saw you do it with a character that doesn't really have optimal options to deal with it.

I was surprised you didn't bring the shotput and just snipe him off of the ledge, but glad you did that without even having to spec for it.


I'm still not understanding the special counterpicks for this. Why delfino, skyloft etc.? Seems risky as anyone can clearly switch to diddy kong and probably gain a bigger advantage.

Well, for Shotput I was afraid that he'd pocket it and use it to really damage me, I didn't want to give him such a good move to hit me with, and well, Ultimate Uppercut WAS the move that got me the kill in the game so, theres my reasoning for that.

As for counter characters, yes everybody should be able to do well with their own characters, but these options im presenting are like brain dead characters that can easily beat the strat, like Little Mac for example with his d-smash just flat out countering the strat.

As for counterpicks, Delfino and skyloft are moving stages that prevent Villager doing what he does best, sure, people can switch to Diddy but most probably see that in a victory of itself. In fact when I beat ADHD I purposely didn't ban Halberd to persuade him to switch off of Villager, but he didn't even end up cping the stage when he chose Diddy.
 
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Jaxas

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Alright, so I did some testing on how to DI Diddy's Dthrow and Uthrow at different percents...
And all across the board I came up with 'you get hit with 1 Uair' (unless you're at high percents and Diddy's at low).
Also, Uthrow->Uair seems to have a relatively small window where it works.

TL;DR: You get hit by 1 Uair almost all the time. Holding Behind :4diddy: seems to work, and Behind+Down at high percents means Fair only?


Diddy's Dthrow->Uair(->Uair) combo on Wii Fit Trainer (Median weight)

Testing with Rage (both characters at displayed percent)
Held Direction | 30% (each) | 60% (each) | 100% (each)
None | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Up | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Up & Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Up & Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Barely) | 0 Uairs
Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Puts you in a terrible position) | 0 Uairs
Down & Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Down & Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs
Down | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 0 Uairs

Testing without rage (Diddy at 0%, WFT at displayed percent)
Held Direction | 30% | 60% | 100%
None | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair
Up | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Kills)
Up & Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Kills)
Up & Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Kills)
Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Barely) | 0 Uairs (Really close, though)
Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Bad Position) | 1 Uair (Lightning, no Kill)
Down & Behind | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | Only Fair hits
Down & Towards | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Kills)
Down | 1 Uair | 1 Uair | 1 Uair (Kills)

When testing Diddy's Uthrow->Uair, it only worked with Diddy at 0% and WFT at 60% (of tested percents above), and it always hit no matter DI at that percent

Due to these things, I'm assuming that I was doing something wrong while testing; does this sound correct to anyone else who's tested (or plays Diddy Kong), though?

EDIT:
I hate to present dealing with a custom as "choose a different character", as we all saw you do it with a character that doesn't really have optimal options to deal with it.
As you said, this thread is indeed supposed to provide general ideas for how to deal with things, and not promote character switching.
On the other hand, though, it's perfectly okay to discuss your character's means of dealing with something as long as it's not super specific ("well I can pocket it so it doesn't matter!"), so that we can pull general ideas from it.

(Note: I'm not saying either you or @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster are in the wrong; far from it in fact. Just clarifying the rules for anyone reading)


EDIT #2:
I updated the OP with a work-in-progress writeup of the 2 current topics (...well, more Villager; there's been minimal Diddy Kong discussion so far, surprisingly).
Let me know if you guys like that kind of writeup at the end of a topic, and/or what you'd like done differently.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I'm going to try to lab with a local who likes to use this obnoxious Villager strategy in the next day or two. I'll report my findings.
 

Strangelove13

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EDIT #2:
I updated the OP with a work-in-progress writeup of the 2 current topics (...well, more Villager; there's been minimal Diddy Kong discussion so far, surprisingly).
Let me know if you guys like that kind of writeup at the end of a topic, and/or what you'd like done differently.
Awesome! A nice, concise write-up to go along with the more elaborate posts in the thread, I like it a lot!

On the topic of Villager, Clashtournaments has started putting up the videos from the last KTAR, so far we got Tweek vs ADHD, I assume the rest should be up shortly. Would be nice to link those (and perhaps some others we find about a subject) in your write-up as a sort of video evidence to what we've been discussing I think.
 
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Jaxas

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Awesome! A nice, concise write-up to go along with the more elaborate posts in the thread, I like it a lot!

On the topic of Villager, Clashtournaments has started putting up the videos from the last KTAR, so far we got Tweek vs ADHD, I assume the rest should be up shortly. Would be nice to link those (and perhaps some others we find about a subject) in your write-up as a sort of video evidence to what we've been discussing I think.
That's a great idea, I'll be sure to keep an eye on their channel. Thanks!
 

Drogmyre

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The problem in Diddy's case is a matter of A. hitstun and B. his incredibly fast aerials.

It's extremely unlikely that you're going to be able to avoid getting nailed with an aerial after diddy throws you, he's just too quick.

The question SHOULD be: You know Diddy's going to at least ATTEMPT to nail you with an aerial, usually more than one. What do you do in response?

To be completely honest, the only thing I can really say here is that it's highly dependent on your character. With my admittedly limited understanding of sm4sh mechanics, I don't think there's really an all-around way to deal with Diddy's grab combos, other than the obvious dodge-the-grab and if you do get grabbed try to DI.
 

DunnoBro

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Can someone capable of villagers explosive ledgestalling test something with me later?

Wanna test what moves in particular directly challenge him. I think it might actually a free mighty falcon punch if they try that on him lol

Also curious if bowser jr's wind cannon could've been used to gimp him (if it can hit below the ledge at all)
 
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At low %s, DI towards Diddy and up. While this won't avoid the first uair, it will make it so that the uair will send you flying off in a direction Diddy can't really follow you - the best you're gonna get in that situation, honestly. At high %s, DI down and away - this makes it possible to airdodge the uair if it comes, and turns it into a mixup situation, rather than a "whoops I died" situation. Added bonus: if he does nail you, you die a little later. Also, ban Halberd, because on Halberd, dthrow->uair starts killing before you can DI out at all.
 
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Holder of the Heel

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I'm pretty casual and I just saw this thread on the feed of new posts and recalled something I thought during the stream with ADHD playing against Tweek, so I may be incorrect here but... couldn't the custom big mechakoopas be tossed at the ledge of a camping Villager and be rather difficult to avoid due to the large explosion?
 

Jaxas

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The problem in Diddy's case is a matter of A. hitstun and B. his incredibly fast aerials.

It's extremely unlikely that you're going to be able to avoid getting nailed with an aerial after diddy throws you, he's just too quick.

The question SHOULD be: You know Diddy's going to at least ATTEMPT to nail you with an aerial, usually more than one. What do you do in response?

To be completely honest, the only thing I can really say here is that it's highly dependent on your character. With my admittedly limited understanding of sm4sh mechanics, I don't think there's really an all-around way to deal with Diddy's grab combos, other than the obvious dodge-the-grab and if you do get grabbed try to DI.
Yeah, just reread my post from before and realized I wasn't clear; I figured I was doing it wrong because I was only able to get 1 Uair in most situations, and more importantly the Uthrow-Uair combo was really percent-specific.

At low %s, DI towards Diddy and up. While this won't avoid the first uair, it will make it so that the uair will send you flying off in a direction Diddy can't really follow you - the best you're gonna get in that situation, honestly. At high %s, DI down and away - this makes it possible to airdodge the uair if it comes, and turns it into a mixup situation, rather than a "whoops I died" situation. Added bonus: if he does nail you, you die a little later. Also, ban Halberd, because on Halberd, dthrow->uair starts killing before you can DI out at all.
Yeah, that sounds about right. And is Town & City the same way in that regard? I know it has the next lowest ceiling.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Yeah, just reread my post from before and realized I wasn't clear; I figured I was doing it wrong because I was only able to get 1 Uair in most situations, and more importantly the Uthrow-Uair combo was really percent-specific.


Yeah, that sounds about right. And is Town & City the same way in that regard? I know it has the next lowest ceiling.
T&C's ceiling isn't so low as to make a difference of more than a few %. Like, single digits. The platforms are unusually high up though, especially in the Town form, so that can be its own factor entirely, similar to getting hit off of Battlefield's top platform.
 

deepseadiva

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Another important thing to look at is how Snakeee and Nairo both lost versus the ledge camp strategy. If we looks at Snakeee's match, we can see an assemblage of what he tried to do with Rosalina: absorb the Lloyds and projectiles with Gravi Pull, and then warp Luma in to hit him with smashes. The major problem with this was that Luma kept getting blown up by the balloons and getting hit off stage. With Luma out of the way, it seems Snakeee could only wait and absorb the Lloyds. Something that really gained him no advantage at all throughout the matches, and had him get peppered with projectiles the whole time.

Luma got some sweet hits in occasionally, but ended up being blown up almost all the rest of the time. I wonder if there's a smarter position to warp him to get that strategy to work.


The match versus Nairo was really sad because he gets a relatively large advantage in the last stock of the first game, but he decides to charge in against Villager anyway and ends up losing the whole thing. Dsmash so such a great tool versus this with ZSS since it nets her SEXY kills though.


Tweek seems to have had the winning formula against the ledge stalling though. A combination of Bowser Jr's unique tools and Tweek's behavior made both games close. Abandon Ships lets Jr place a huge and powerful hitbox near the ledge while still being able to avoid Balloons+Sapling+LLoyds+Slingshots. His extra jump with Clow Car let's him bounce around and give him the mobility to avoid Villager's spam in the first place. A long-lasting dair covers lots of ledge drop options. And mechakoopa gives him a pressure option to throw back at him. ADHD learned to Pocket that **** quick though. And while that's not ideal, since it does give Villager yet another ****ing projectile it does complicate the ledge plan just a little more, since taking it out takes time and leaves him vulnerable for just a moment.

Excited to see a Pikachu vs the camping, and @ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster Brawler in action versus it.

Really sad to this being so effective though. Probably the dumbest thing I've seen in this game so far. :/
 
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