Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Y2Kay]

Does anybody know where thinkaman is? haven't seen him in a while. I know he's not dead or anything, just don't see him here at all. Come back boss! ;-;

 

[ARGHETH]

Does anybody know where thinkaman is? haven't seen him in a while. I know he's not dead or anything, just don't see him here at all. Come back boss! ;-;

Probably just has stuff to do. Genesis is coming up, for one, and he might have work or something.

And to keep this post on topic:

Any moves that on paper look broken but barely ever serve a purpose?

Not exactly broken, but Marth's tipper Fsmash might count. It's a quick move that kills really early, but doesn't really get used as often with Marth (I think).

 

[Baskerville]

And I just remembered NAKAT plays Lucas as well some times, so it goes either way.....


You know what? Why not go all the way and fix EVERY damn hitbox-in relation to animation so the stupid phantom hits don't happen? Seriously, this is a gigantic problem in Smash 4. Almost every character has that one attack that constantly misses because the animation sucks. The biggest offenders are Marth and Samus, but almost every characters has this. Cloud's Nair has a horrid animation that doesn't match the hitbox at all, many of Lucas' attacks have horrid range and don't hit like the animation shows, etc.

And since you mentioned in your GnW post, another issue to adress are the ******** sourspots that do jack. Those that make you think why they even exist. Ness' D-Smash has a stupid sourpot that gets him punished for attempting to use it, GnW's smashes are all janky with their sourpots, Zelda is a broken mess of ******** sourspots, and DDD has a non-sensical sourspot in his USmash that makes his killing inconsistency bigger, not to mention it also has a broken hitbox-animation relation as well....

I know it's hard to fix EVERY hitbox problem, and one can get used to space with janky hitboxes but it is obnoxious.

That U-Air of his still triggers me. You have to hit with his arm to hit with the back of the move even though the sword is right on them.

 

[TriTails]

Well, there should be outliers, but for most recovery moves, they shouldn't be 30. Luigi (68 frames) and Lucario (60 frames) have the highest landing lag for their Up Specials, but in Lucario's case, he can "change" it, except I don't know how. If there are outliers, then maybe Luigi's should be 48? It's not like he can recover from the depths of hell like Lucario. Even then, figure that Luigi's Super Jump Punch rarely is used on-stage or to recover on-stage since Luigi's air speed just dies when he uses it. Combined with it's situational use, yes it is a powerful and risky move, but 68 frames might be excessive.

Spoiler: Landing lag stuffs

Where did you get those data from? I've always thought Luigi's SJP landing lag is 120+ frames lol.

I agree on reducing SJP's landing lag though. It doesn't fly high, nor has a big*** sweetspot like Doc's. Sourspot is a pathetic 1%. Yes, it does 25%. But it has the same sweetspot hitbox size as D-air spike (Which is... I don't know. It's got to be one of the smallest spike hitbox in history. If it isn't then my mouth would be agape). Also, say, if they're in a middle of a move's end lag, you go try to FJP and miss, hit the sourspot instead. They will instantly recover and is absolutely free to Ike/Bowser maybe even D3's F-smash. I've always thought its landing lag is quite undertuned in this game, but I can live with it if it was to recieve no changes.

Which made me wonder. I've seen SJP in Brawl. Thing is stronger than Smash 4's, goes way higher (Reaches the top platform of Battlefireld), has noticeably more horizontal distance, and has less ending lag. SJP is generally straight up nerfed in this game, which I don't know why because having the stall and height from Brawl would improve his recovery significantly without being too good, but ah well.

Lucario's tho. 60 frames of landing lag is extremely high. Yes, you can recover to the heaven from the nucleus of Earth, but steering it has always been a bothersome because misangling = stage spiking yourself. People can go shoot above the ledge, but then he will suffer from 60 frames of landing lag. Unless you can land onstage before the helpless state kicks in, you either go to the ledge or suffer death. Fairly intimidating when you are forced to recover somewhere below the stage.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4n7p

ESAM'S follow up video was good too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuPJ_ApYooQ

and his follow up to that video: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4pk2

hate to be the harbinger of bad news. Genesis will be his last tournament.........

Well, s***. I wasn't aware of Vinnie's problems. Guy gets ****ed on too much.

Like ESAM, I never had been scarred like this. If I was to relate, in my early school days, I was made fun of due to my height and me being weak. I'm also very much a crybaby. I was in 4th grade of elementary school. A basketball fell on my head and tears started to paint my face right after. I was still being made fun of in my JHS, but at least nobody REALLY did something bad to me, like, actively trying to hunt me down. But I do know they think lowly of me, and it still hurts.

Thank goodness he seem to have recovered tho. My respect to him and especially ESAM had gone up. Good stuffs from ESAM. He has a point. I mean, even For ****ing Glory has people who one-match someone and then leaves. [Edited out]

Oh, and also. There's people who clearly has that 'OK!' below their names. I select my character and press start. They immediately leave when I was in the loading screen. The ****ing s***!?

Glad to see there's still some nice people like ESAM. I really am. The Smash community is getting toxic and I'm bothered by its growth. Looks like some people forgot the point of Smash being made is to have fun. But no, people shoot you down with their hate and prevents you from having fun and constantly have to remind you 'BRUH. I STILL EXIST AND U SUK'.

But ah well. Haters are everywhere, and one can only not mind them so much. All I can do is to reduce the possibility of another one being yet another ******** hater, and that 'one' is-a-me!

 

[Ffamran]

So, I did a sloppy test; no images, no written down notes, etc. This test was peaked from what LightLV said about ZSS's Uair hitbox and me noticing how large the hitbox seems... Note: I still don't own Mewtwo and Roy, so I can't test them. Oh, and Lucina was not tested because... Methodology was: Omega Mushroomy Kingdom, Marth as the dummy, but I realized after testing Wii Fit Trainer's Uair out of curiosity that she would have been a better dummy since her posture is godplayer. Marth and the test character would, with the lead foot at the line, stand a block, 3 "units", away, the test character would perform their Uair trying to hit with the initial hit, and if they fail to hit, the test character would move up one third of a block, 1 "unit". For the back hits, it would be the opposite where they step back, but still close the gap like a front hit... I hope that made sense. The test confirmed these things:

1. Pikachu is also another front flip user like Bayonetta and Falco.

2. The trails on moves are annoying and misleading as hell.

3. Wii Fit Trainer's front hit has the same range as Falco's back hit. Short range my ***.

4. Luigi's Uair is unique in that it starts above 0 degrees - imagine a circle on the characters. Other characters start at 0 or even below like Robin. This obviously hurts his range, but not by much.

5. Kirby, (Dr.) Mario, Marth, Pac-Man, and Pikachu need to move forward one third of a block, 1 unit, to get their initial Uair hitbox to hit. Luigi needs to move up 1.5 units to get his to hit. I say initial as some characters do front flips while other do back flips. The notable characters who don't are Captain Falcon, Diddy, Falco, Ganondorf, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS. Robin also doesn't need to move, but uniquely, Robin gains 1 unit of range with her Levin Sword. For last active hits which were back hits for many, Captain Falcon, (Dr.) Mario, Ganondorf, Luigi, and Pac-Man, did not have to move; they kept the same range. Kirby and Pikachu gain range, 1 unit, with their last active hit; they don't need to move from the starting point to hit with their last active hit. Diddy, Falco, Marth, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS lose range; Diddy, Falco, and Robin (Levin) need to move up 1, Robin (Bronze) and ZSS need to move 3 units up, Marth and Wii Fit Trainer's does not hit, and Marth and Robin's animation outright lies to us.

Conclusion from this? The flip Uair users don't really deviate from their ranges much. Nobody really beats a character in range, except for Robin, but even that's not by much. What should also be taken from this is that attack trails and body builds are misleading such as ZSS being thin making her Uair look like it has more range when it doesn't while Marth's Uair despite looking like it's hitting behind, is not actually true, and almost all attack trails are off which is much worse than disjoints not shown by trails like Captain Falcon's Up Smash and Side Smash, Falco's Dtilt, or Mario's Super Jump Punch since there's no hitbox. Both are misleading, but I'd rather have disjoints than no hitboxes. At the same time, because of how this was tested, last active hits might not be tested "correctly" and this test also does not account for vertical range. Also, without Mewtwo and Roy, this conclusion isn't entirely valid; Mewtwo's Uair range is probably greater than the tested and Roy's definitely got a back hit while Marth doesn't.

Also, a mini-test: Falco and Fox have the same range with their Bairs at, from where their lead foot is on, 1 block or 3 units between their opponent, Captain Falcon, (Dr.) Mario, Ganondorf, and Luigi have 4 units, and Samus and ZSS? 5 units. Yeah.

 

[Vipermoon]

So, I did a sloppy test; no images, no written down notes, etc. This test was peaked from what LightLV said about ZSS's Uair hitbox and me noticing how large the hitbox seems... Note: I still don't own Mewtwo and Roy, so I can't test them. Oh, and Lucina was not tested because... Methodology was: Omega Mushroomy Kingdom, Marth as the dummy, but I realized after testing Wii Fit Trainer's Uair out of curiosity that she would have been a better dummy since her posture is godplayer. Marth and the test character would, with the lead foot at the line, stand a block, 3 "units", away, the test character would perform their Uair trying to hit with the initial hit, and if they fail to hit, the test character would move up one third of a block, 1 "unit". For the back hits, it would be the opposite where they step back, but still close the gap like a front hit... I hope that made sense. The test confirmed these things:

1. Pikachu is also another front flip user like Bayonetta and Falco.

2. The trails on moves are annoying and misleading as hell.

3. Wii Fit Trainer's front hit has the same range as Falco's back hit. Short range my ***.

4. Luigi's Uair is unique in that it starts above 0 degrees - imagine a circle on the characters. Other characters start at 0 or even below like Robin. This obviously hurts his range, but not by much.

5. Kirby, (Dr.) Mario, Marth, Pac-Man, and Pikachu need to move forward one third of a block, 1 unit, to get their initial Uair hitbox to hit. Luigi needs to move up 1.5 units to get his to hit. I say initial as some characters do front flips while other do back flips. The notable characters who don't are Captain Falcon, Diddy, Falco, Ganondorf, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS. Robin also doesn't need to move, but uniquely, Robin gains 1 unit of range with her Levin Sword. For last active hits which were back hits for many, Captain Falcon, (Dr.) Mario, Ganondorf, Luigi, and Pac-Man, did not have to move; they kept the same range. Kirby and Pikachu gain range, 1 unit, with their last active hit; they don't need to move from the starting point to hit with their last active hit. Diddy, Falco, Marth, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS lose range; Diddy, Falco, and Robin (Levin) need to move up 1, Robin (Bronze) and ZSS need to move 3 units up, Marth and Wii Fit Trainer's does not hit, and Marth and Robin's animation outright lies to us.

Conclusion from this? The flip Uair users don't really deviate from their ranges much. Nobody really beats a character in range, except for Robin, but even that's not by much. What should also be take from this is thay attack trails and body builds are misleading such as ZSS being thin making her Uair look like it has more range when it doesn't while Marth's Uair despite looking like it's hitting behind, is not actually true, and almost all attack trails are off which is much worse than disjoints not shown by trails like Captain Falcon's Up Smash and Side Smash, Falco's Dtilt, or Mario's Super Jump Punch since there's no hitbox. Both are misleading, but I'd rather have disjoints than no hitboxes. At the same time, because of how this was tested, last active hits might not be tested "correctly" and this test also does not account for vertical range. Also, without Mewtwo and Roy, this conclusion isn't entirely valid; Mewtwo's Uair range is probably greater than the tested and Roy's definitely got a back hit while Marth doesn't.

Also, a mini-test: Falco and Fox have the same range with their Bairs at, from where their lead foot is on, 1 block or 3 units between their opponent, Captain Falcon, (Dr.) Mario, Ganondorf, and Luigi have 4 units, and Samus and ZSS? 5 units. Yeah.

Of course Roy's Uair has a larger back hit. It hits from 5-12 vs Marth's 5-9. But this specific deadzone has been around for ages.

In Melee Marth is at 5-8 and Roy is 5-10.

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
http://smashboards.com/threads/roy-hitboxes-and-frame-data.286427/

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Are we using the same definition, here?

"Turtling" in gaming terms usually refers to a player or team remaining within some kind of fortified or highly defensible structure and waiting for the enemy to attack.

Rosaluma, DH, and PacMan would be the best examples of "turtling" characters in this game. Ironically, the only ACTUAL turtle, Bowser, can't play with that playstyle because he cannot force approaches and actually needs to get in on opponents to win.



I think there's SOME meta development that can and will happen with other characters in time, but I think that it won't change the way the tier list has fallen very much: some lower tiers may rise to mid and some mid will fall to low, but I don't expect high tier to change very much if at all.

We're just FAR too good at figuring out character potential very early on. Some characters will simply never do any better than they currently do without being changed via patches because their frame data is just generally crap and no amount of meta development is going to fix that.

Again, some characters ARE going to change places on the tier list, but I highly doubt there's another "melee Marth" hiding in the SSB4 roster (ie a character people slept on for years until one day Ken showed everyone just how much potential the character has).

If you're not pressing the attack, you're relying on the opponent's mistakes to do damage. Which is literally bait and punish.

 

[Mili]

So it is to my understanding that people want and nerfed because they 'invalidate portions of the cast', right? So why in the world are we calling for nerfs to (I will admit I have bias)?! More specifically, I think it is silly to ask nerfs of and whoever else there may be. I won't lie that Ryu is an incredibly strong character and True Shoryuken is an absolute amazing kill move and same goes for Meta Knight with his Shuttle Loop Ladder. Just because a character has some overwhelming strengths, it doesn't always mean they need to be toned down.

It does seem a little random but people are even calling for to be nerfed, which frankly, is ridiculous to say. I don't think any character that doesn't decimate portions of the cast should be nerfed. Furthermore, it is probably just a case of the crappy characters needing a boost. How can we complain about our meta when Melee has (and and AND )?!

 

[Y2Kay]

I think about 7-10 Japanese people had ran into me one day, and then leave immediately. That's racist!

Naw Fam, they leave you cuz they think the lag will be terrible.

There is a whole ocean in between us, after all

Common misconception, but no, they don't do that cause they hate us.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zelda's Dtilt (and Zelda herself) on paper is nothing to write home about, but in a game where Dtilts are generally ****, hers is good when she can always spike with a clean one or a late one.

I can hardly think of a "bad" dtilt in this game, they're almost always a character's best ground poke (, // etc.) or combo starter outside of grabs ( and again, , (okay so it's probably actually utilt that's his best but dtilt is easier to land), , ), and when it's not either it usually is the "power" option complimenting a faster ftilt ().


The only characters that really don't have much use for their dtilts are Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sheik and Sonic, and that's mainly because their gameplan rarely involves careful ground spacing (or in Sheik's case, it's usefulness overlaps with other easier to use tilts).

 

[Y2Kay]

I haven't seen mario bros use their down tilt at all either. Or any tilts besides up tilt

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I haven't seen mario bros use their down tilt at all either. Or any tilts besides up tilt

Dtilt is combo starter. DFtilt is an amazing space tool.

 

[Y2Kay]

So it is to my understanding that people want and nerfed because they 'invalidate portions of the cast', right? So why in the world are we calling for nerfs to (I will admit I have bias)?! More specifically, I think it is silly to ask nerfs of and whoever else there may be. I won't lie that Ryu is an incredibly strong character and True Shoryuken is an absolute amazing kill move and same goes for Meta Knight with his Shuttle Loop Ladder. Just because a character has some overwhelming strengths, it doesn't always mean they need to be toned down.

It does seem a little random but people are even calling for to be nerfed, which frankly, is ridiculous to say. I don't think any character that doesn't decimate portions of the cast should be nerfed. Furthermore, it is probably just a case of the crappy characters needing a boost. How can we complain about our meta when Melee has (and and AND )?!

TRSK Kills Mewtwo at 70%, I think that's a little too much for move with f1 invincibilty, easy to input, AND has setups into it.

I think the move should kill the cast ten percent later, but even five will do

 

[Routa]

Isn't D-tilt into F-smash a thing on Doc or is my memory playing with me again?

Also the lack of Swordfighter's D-tilt makes me cry. Why no one remembers that he/she/it... Oh yeah... Dem rules...

 

[Browny]

Thank goodness he seem to have recovered tho. My respect to him and especially ESAM had gone up. Good stuffs from ESAM. He has a point. I mean, even For ****ing Glory has people who one-match someone and then leaves. And the worst part is, that's not all. I think about 7-10 Japanese people had ran into me one day, and then leave immediately. That's racist!

Oh, and also. There's people who clearly has that 'OK!' below their names. I select my character and press start. They immediately leave when I was in the loading screen. The ****ing s***!?

What?

Are you actually serious right now. I'm not gonna say any more for now because I need to know if this is a serious post or not.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Isn't D-tilt into F-smash a thing on Doc or is my memory playing with me again?

Also the lack of Swordfighter's D-tilt makes me cry. Why no one remembers that he/she/it... Oh yeah... Dem rules...

With the kit featuring more fast & powerful hits, Doc most likely has the best of the 3 dtilts of the plumbers.
Noteworthy setups include Dtilt into Bair & UpB at high % on fastfallers.

 

[Wintropy]

So it is to my understanding that people want and nerfed because they 'invalidate portions of the cast', right? So why in the world are we calling for nerfs to (I will admit I have bias)?! More specifically, I think it is silly to ask nerfs of and whoever else there may be. I won't lie that Ryu is an incredibly strong character and True Shoryuken is an absolute amazing kill move and same goes for Meta Knight with his Shuttle Loop Ladder. Just because a character has some overwhelming strengths, it doesn't always mean they need to be toned down.

Agreed. It's easy to focus on the positive attributes of a character, especially when those attributes are the things that stand out most, and ignore the weaknesses that keep these characters in check.

It's been said before, but I think what makes Sheik and ZSS so much better than the vast majority of the roster is their abundance of safe options and their ability to quickly reset to neutral from most situations. You can make the case that they have that one overtuned option that can be addressed to tone down their overall viability (be it needles or Bouncing Fish for Sheik, or paralyzer or Boost Kick for ZSS), but they still have enough options and enough safety on those options to keep them at the top of the viability food chain. There isn't one big thing that can be nerfed to bring these two down to the level of other characters, you'd have to tweak them a few smaller things to keep them in check without gutting them entirely. It's a bit of a delicate situation: if they're nerfed too little, it won't have a noticeable effect, and if they're nerfed too much, it may dismantle the very things that make them so effective.

This applies more to Sheik than to ZSS, of course, but I think Zammy is guilty of this too. The most meaningful nerf would probably be to reduce their ability to reset to neutral with BF / FJ, but that wouldn't do much to tone down everything else they can do. The fact is that they invalidate big chunks of the roster because big chunks of the roster just don't have the tools to deal with what these two can throw at them. Sheik doesn't even need to find an opening, she can just keep pressuring you in neutral until you're at her mercy, and ZSS just needs one good confirm to put most characters into a very compromising position that may or may not end with Boost-Kick-to-death at 70%. Sheik's neutral is dominant due to her raw safety and great fundamentals, ZSS's advantage can end your stock very quickly if she gets the chance, and both can deny the opponent's advantage in a way that few others can. For most characters that can't deal with these tools, winning neutral is as much about staying even as it is about gaining an advantage. That's the real crux of what we're dealing with here, and it goes way beyond just toning down one (possibly overtuned) kill confirm.

ANYWAY~

I've said this before, so I'll keep it brief: Ryu and MK are good characters. Very good characters. That's in no small part due to That One Option they both have (TSRK confirm in Ryu's case, Shuttle Loop combo in MK's). They're otherwise fundamentally sound characters, but these are what's mentioned whenever the nerf hammer is demanded. Great, an overtuned kill confirm that invalidates weaker characters! Let's just get rid of the damn things and be done with it, right?

Well, dear strawman, whence do we go hither? You can tone down these moves and it'd probably make for a healthier metagame to an extent, but then what? Yeah, these kill confirms might be a wee bit too powerful for most characters to deal with, but it's not like the wielder of these moves is infallible: while they're still good characters even without TSRK and Shuttle Loop, Ryu and MK still suffer the same fundamental issues as everybody else. They still have to win neutral to use these moves effectively, they still have to suffer disadvantage and try to reset to neutral (to varying degrees, depending on the context of the game and the opponent they're versing), they still have pronounced weaknesses to keep them from being totally overbearing. They're not invalidating everybody because they're overburdened as characters, they're invalidating certain characters because That One Option is just that good at beating certain characters. That's really it.

Gonna build a few more strawmen here, but it seems to me that a number of people (not all, but a sizable coterie) who request nerfs for these characters don't really want to nerf the character, they want to nerf That One Option. The character is, in this case, a vessel for a kill confirm that nobody really wants to have to deal with. And that's okay, I don't like getting Shuttle Looped and killed for dropping neutral once either. But I think it's important to consider the holistic view, and think about the rest of the character it's attached to: will they still be viable if these options are nerfed or removed altogether? Probably. At the same time, is it going to invalidate them to have these options nerfed to a reasonable degree? Probably not. But it's worth considering: why do you want these nerfs, and is there an alternative way to deal with them (i.e. studying the matchup in greater detail and requesting feedback from those who play these characters)?

Ryu isn't just a good character because of TSRK: he's a good character because he's got a solid neutral game, great frame data that confirms from and into other strong moves, a versatile kit that ensures he can play both keepaway and close-range combat effectively and, yes, a kill confirm in neutral that can kill most characters at ~60%. MK, even without Shuttle Loop, is still a speedy fencer with great frame data, good edgeguarding abilities, a solid recovery and exceptional frame data. But their weaknesses aren't insignificant either: Ryu can struggle in neutral if his opponent can outrange him and space him effectively and his recovery options are easy to trace, while MK struggles to kill outside of Shuttle Loop confirms and his weight means he can't afford to drop neutral more than a couple of times without getting killed. Even if they're still fundamentally decent characters without their kill confirms, they still have non-trivial weaknesses to keep them in check. I don't think it's wise to blanket nerf a character's best options because you don't want to have to deal with it. Maybe the move exists for a reason, and maybe it's best to take advantage of these weaknesses instead of obsessing over how it puts your character into disadvantage.

But, yeah, I dunno, I guess it seems to me that people are very quick to cal for nefs rather than putting time into figuring out the matchup for themselves. There's both good and evil in regular balance patches, and while I think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, it does have an ugly side that's quickly manifest as an alternative to, y'know, putting time into the matchup the way it's always been done.

It's interesting that you bring up Melee's meta, Mili , because it ties neatly into what I'm saying: Melee veterans didn't have balance patches to fall back on, so they had to just buck up and bear it. Necessity breeds innovation, and if people didn't like Fox or Sheik in that game, they just had to figure out ways to beat them. That or pick another character. Not romanticising the struggle or saying it's a good thing to have dominant top-tiers and invalid bottom-tiers in any game, just that people got on fine for over a decade in Melee because they had to. They still get on with it to this day, either because it's become the norm or because they're confident that innovation and experimentation can yield results. I think the meta we have right now would be a lot healthier and more efficient if people were more willing to work with the hand they've been dealt and try to optimise the options they have. Even if Ryu and MK are nerfed into oblivion, there will still be other characters to take their place and beat out the weaker tiers - best thing to do in that case is to work on what you've got as though there aren't balance patches yet to come, and if balance patches help you out, then so be it. Take balance patches as a privilege, not a remedy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got bits of smoking straw and wood to pick up...

 

[C0rvus]

On the topic of ZSS you should check out ESAM's new deal with it on her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MO9a9auqk
Taught me a lot. People in the comments going "see, she has weaknesses! only ******* think she's the second best character in the game!" then say Rosalina is better. Why.

It's a good video and he links to Trifroze's great Boost Kick DI guide. Now I'm less terrified of ZSS~!

 

[TTTTTsd]

On the topic of ZSS you should check out ESAM's new deal with it on her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MO9a9auqk
Taught me a lot. People in the comments going "see, she has weaknesses! only ******* think she's the second best character in the game!" then say Rosalina is better. Why.

It's a good video and he links to Trifroze's great Boost Kick DI guide. Now I'm less terrified of ZSS~!

Knowing proper Boost Kick DI REALLY, REALLY goes a long way in making the matchup a lot easier to play.

 

[Mili]

Agreed. It's easy to focus on the positive attributes of a character, especially when those attributes are the things that stand out most, and ignore the weaknesses that keep these characters in check.

It's been said before, but I think what makes Sheik and ZSS so much better than the vast majority of the roster is their abundance of safe options and their ability to quickly reset to neutral from most situations. You can make the case that they have that one overtuned option that can be addressed to tone down their overall viability (be it needles or Bouncing Fish for Sheik, or paralyzer or Boost Kick for ZSS), but they still have enough options and enough safety on those options to keep them at the top of the viability food chain. There isn't one big thing that can be nerfed to bring these two down to the level of other characters, you'd have to tweak them a few smaller things to keep them in check without gutting them entirely. It's a bit of a delicate situation: if they're nerfed too little, it won't have a noticeable effect, and if they're nerfed too much, it may dismantle the very things that make them so effective.

This applies more to Sheik than to ZSS, of course, but I think Zammy is guilty of this too. The most meaningful nerf would probably be to reduce their ability to reset to neutral with BF / FJ, but that wouldn't do much to tone down everything else they can do. The fact is that they invalidate big chunks of the roster because big chunks of the roster just don't have the tools to deal with what these two can throw at them. Sheik doesn't even need to find an opening, she can just keep pressuring you in neutral until you're at her mercy, and ZSS just needs one good confirm to put most characters into a very compromising position that may or may not end with Boost-Kick-to-death at 70%. Sheik's neutral is dominant due to her raw safety and great fundamentals, ZSS's advantage can end your stock very quickly if she gets the chance, and both can deny the opponent's advantage in a way that few others can. For most characters that can't deal with these tools, winning neutral is as much about staying even as it is about gaining an advantage. That's the real crux of what we're dealing with here, and it goes way beyond just toning down one (possibly overtuned) kill confirm.

ANYWAY~

I've said this before, so I'll keep it brief: Ryu and MK are good characters. Very good characters. That's in no small part due to That One Option they both have (TSRK confirm in Ryu's case, Shuttle Loop combo in MK's). They're otherwise fundamentally sound characters, but these are what's mentioned whenever the nerf hammer is demanded. Great, an overtuned kill confirm that invalidates weaker characters! Let's just get rid of the damn things and be done with it, right?

Well, dear strawman, whence do we go hither? You can tone down these moves and it'd probably make for a healthier metagame to an extent, but then what? Yeah, these kill confirms might be a wee bit too powerful for most characters to deal with, but it's not like the wielder of these moves is infallible: while they're still good characters even without TSRK and Shuttle Loop, Ryu and MK still suffer the same fundamental issues as everybody else. They still have to win neutral to use these moves effectively, they still have to suffer disadvantage and try to reset to neutral (to varying degrees, depending on the context of the game and the opponent they're versing), they still have pronounced weaknesses to keep them from being totally overbearing. They're not invalidating everybody because they're overburdened as characters, they're invalidating certain characters because That One Option is just that good at beating certain characters. That's really it.

Gonna build a few more strawmen here, but it seems to me that a number of people (not all, but a sizable coterie) who request nerfs for these characters don't really want to nerf the character, they want to nerf That One Option. The character is, in this case, a vessel for a kill confirm that nobody really wants to have to deal with. And that's okay, I don't like getting Shuttle Looped and killed for dropping neutral once either. But I think it's important to consider the holistic view, and think about the rest of the character it's attached to: will they still be viable if these options are nerfed or removed altogether? Probably. At the same time, is it going to invalidate them to have these options nerfed to a reasonable degree? Probably not. But it's worth considering: why do you want these nerfs, and is there an alternative way to deal with them (i.e. studying the matchup in greater detail and requesting feedback from those who play these characters)?

Ryu isn't just a good character because of TSRK: he's a good character because he's got a solid neutral game, great frame data that confirms from and into other strong moves, a versatile kit that ensures he can play both keepaway and close-range combat effectively and, yes, a kill confirm in neutral that can kill most characters at ~60%. MK, even without Shuttle Loop, is still a speedy fencer with great frame data, good edgeguarding abilities, a solid recovery and exceptional frame data. But their weaknesses aren't insignificant either: Ryu can struggle in neutral if his opponent can outrange him and space him effectively and his recovery options are easy to trace, while MK struggles to kill outside of Shuttle Loop confirms and his weight means he can't afford to drop neutral more than a couple of times without getting killed. Even if they're still fundamentally decent characters without their kill confirms, they still have non-trivial weaknesses to keep them in check. I don't think it's wise to blanket nerf a character's best options because you don't want to have to deal with it. Maybe the move exists for a reason, and maybe it's best to take advantage of these weaknesses instead of obsessing over how it puts your character into disadvantage.

But, yeah, I dunno, I guess it seems to me that people are very quick to cal for nefs rather than putting time into figuring out the matchup for themselves. There's both good and evil in regular balance patches, and while I think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, it does have an ugly side that's quickly manifest as an alternative to, y'know, putting time into the matchup the way it's always been done.

It's interesting that you bring up Melee's meta, Mili , because it ties neatly into what I'm saying: Melee veterans didn't have balance patches to fall back on, so they had to just buck up and bear it. Necessity breeds innovation, and if people didn't like Fox or Sheik in that game, they just had to figure out ways to beat them. That or pick another character. Not romanticising the struggle or saying it's a good thing to have dominant top-tiers and invalid bottom-tiers in any game, just that people got on fine for over a decade in Melee because they had to. They still get on with it to this day, either because it's become the norm or because they're confident that innovation and experimentation can yield results. I think the meta we have right now would be a lot healthier and more efficient if people were more willing to work with the hand they've been dealt and try to optimise the options they have. Even if Ryu and MK are nerfed into oblivion, there will still be other characters to take their place and beat out the weaker tiers - best thing to do in that case is to work on what you've got as though there aren't balance patches yet to come, and if balance patches help you out, then so be it. Take balance patches as a privilege, not a remedy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got bits of smoking straw and wood to pick up...

Can you marry me?

 

[bc1910]

Frankly, people would probably be calling for Ryu nerfs if he were easier to use. It's the Melee Fox effect.

He's perceived as requiring skill, so people are happy for him to dump on half the cast because only those who put the time into maining Ryu can do it to an "unhealthy" level.

This isn't to say Ryu is especially hard or technical - I still don't believe that. But I do think he requires more dedication than your average Sm4sh character and people are more tolerant of his strength as a result.

Incidentally, there's no point bringing up Melee top tiers in buff/nerf arguments. Melee is nearly 15 years old and has a long-standing competitive scene. Everyone knows which characters you need to use if you want to be competitive. Complaining about them won't change anything and hasn't changed anything for, yeah, 15 years.

Complaining about top tiers in Sm4sh, whilst still dipping into "stop whining and play the game" territory, is at least slightly more productive because serious balance issues are being discussed in a game that is still receiving balance patches. There is at least SOME point to buff/nerf debates, even if they do probably take too much of the limelight.

 

[Wintropy]

Can you marry me?

I'm already taken, but your interest is duly noted~ ;3

On the topic of ZSS you should check out ESAM's new deal with it on her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MO9a9auqk
Taught me a lot. People in the comments going "see, she has weaknesses! only ******* think she's the second best character in the game!" then say Rosalina is better. Why.

It's a good video and he links to Trifroze's great Boost Kick DI guide. Now I'm less terrified of ZSS~!

Exactly what I mean by "grin and bear it". So much more effective to adapt as though balance patches aren't a thing, and then rejoice if the patches do end up working in your favour.

Out of interest, are there any videos of this ilk for Sheik? Very good learning resource, may help a few people.

 

[san.]

Can't I call for nerfs and put in time on matchups? That's what I've been doing so far anyways. I would hate it if my utilt randomly killed at 40% or something.

Thanks to @LordWilliam1234 and co., there are at least some easy references for safety on shield at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?pref=2&pli=1&sle=true#

You can already formulate strategies just from that data alone.

 

[Das Koopa]

Well....... That's just flat out terrible, after reading/watching both Vinnie's and Esam's parts. I thought the smash community was great. But wow. ZeRo was wrong. The smash community sounds terrible. And, the sad thing is, Esam is right about the Nakat - Ness thing. People on twitch would probably do that.* I bet most people don't ever look at the twitch chat. I rarely do. But sometimes I do, and I hear a lot of bad things. People constantly hate on people. Dabuz and other Rosalina mains for playing this character. Same with Shiek mains (And if Void is as nice as Esam said he was, that makes it even worse). ZeRo and MVD get hate for being fat (Which Esam never even mentioned, which makes stuff worse.), Nakat and others get hate for doing bad at some tournaments, and there's of course the Vinnie thing. The only people that appear to not get SOME hate is like, Nairo, Esam, and Abadango, maybe Ally. And, it's rediculous. You're really hurting them, it upsets them, this is the kind of thing that made bullying a criminal offense. And the fact that it needs to be that is rediculus. Why would you even bully them in the first place????? Think of how YOU would feel. I feel this kind of thing when I'm in class and somebody says something like "Oh, this is easy" or "You're stupid if you don't know" and I DON'T KNOW IT!!!!! It's upsetting! think about the people who don't know. Think about the people who suicide. Those aren't accidents. They did it because they were upset. Why would you even get someone TO that point? Even if I tried to do that, I coudn't do that anyway. Because I'm not heartless or anything. But there is one thing that is worse.

The cancer memes and jokes. HOW does no one seem to think about this. I have seen this word used as a meme thousands of times. No one responds saying they shoudn't say that. But it's a terrible thing to say. i know NO ONE who has cancer. Never met anyone with cancer. Nobody in my family has had cancer. And I still know how terrible it is. And it's not a joke. There's a good chance Nakat's mom has this. If he doesn't go on smashboards much, I woudn't blame him one bit. Nor do I blame Vinnie for quitting one bit. If I was in his shoes, I'd do the same exact thing. Upsetting him to the point if therapy???? why????????? In WHAT way does that help you!!!????

Esam was already one of my favoite players. He's definitely my favorite now, for this video. He knows. He's one of the few people that knows.



*For people who didn't watch the video, Esam said that Nakat's mom is having tons of health issues, and that people would probably make fun of it if she dies because he mains Ness, whos' mom also dies.

I like ESAM's video and feel for Nakat and MVD, but Vinnie used his problem as an excuse to continue/perpetuate drama. I can't feel especially sorry for the guy when he acts unsportsmanlike at Dismantle 2 towards Ally. While I'm sure he's nice IRL, he's not the most mature person (...He put off school for a video game...) and it shows in that Twitlonger post :/

 

[Wintropy]

Can't I call for nerfs and put in time on matchups? That's what I've been doing so far anyways. I would hate it if my utilt randomly killed at 40% or something.

Absolutely, and maybe I should be more clear with what I say. I'm specifically referring to the strawmen esteemed individuals who call for nerfs without dedicating themselves to learning the matchup. Just blanket-stating that the move is unbeatable and refusing to do anything about it 'til it's fixed.

There are legitimate complaints that do need to be addressed (pre-patch Hoo-Hah was honestly nonsense and needed to go), and there are characters that could do with a quick tap of the nerf bat (I doubt very many people would weep if Sheik and ZSS were toned down just a wee bit), but I think priority should be given to playing the game we have rather than expecting Sakurai's magic wand to fix everything. There's no guarantee that nonsense will be patched out, and until it does happen, it's best to focus productivity on figuring out how to beat it or optimising your character's strengths.

I think I've pulped this moribund horse enough by now, though, so I'mma shift tracks to something else.

Who does MK lose to, except for the obvious super-relevant characters? I've been thinking about it recently, and I don't really know his matchup spread that well. Does he get beaten by any non-top-tiers, or is he even at worst with most of the high and lower tiers?

 

[C0rvus]

Well MK's biggest flaw seems to be his neutral, so characters that can consistently outdo him in neutral and/or have good enough reward likely give him the most trouble. I won't pretend I know his MUs because my MK is super bad haha. I will say that him losing to super relevant characters is not very severe. Hell, I still think he at least goes even with Rosalina. And I can't see ZSS being bad for him; between her mediocre neutral for a top tier and his reward being on par with hers if not better, I wouldn't be shocked if MK beat her cleanly. The Meta Knight experts here can fill in the blanks/tell me why I'm wrong though. Don't let me spread lies!

 

[Nobie]

If I made any changes to Shoryuken, it would be to balance it such that it emphasized the anti-air qualities of the move more. I only rarely see anyone use it for that purpose. Like, I don't know, make wake up SRK an actual thing.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I would give no changes. Ryu is a pretty fair character in terms of design and balance imo. Proper reward for the effort.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If I made any changes to Shoryuken, it would be to balance it such that it emphasized the anti-air qualities of the move more. I only rarely see anyone use it for that purpose. Like, I don't know, make wake up SRK an actual thing.

This is hard in a game where people dont have to commit AT ALL when they jump. They can double jump away, do an attack to stall their speed, teleport away, jump on a bike, DI back, do a random counter, etc.

In Street Fighter jumping at someone is a 35 frame commitment.

In Smash...not so much. A Short hop is less then that especially when you consider fast falling.

 

[Antonykun]

Isn't D-tilt into F-smash a thing on Doc or is my memory playing with me again?

Also the lack of Swordfighter's D-tilt makes me cry. Why no one remembers that he/she/it... Oh yeah... Dem rules...

Swordfighter's d-tilt is not that useful of keep away chars or pchars who approach by the air which is a lot

 

[Smooth Criminal]

not to mention, if people guess wrong at the ledge, TSRK actually is a semi-legit "wakeup" option in that sense. I've tagged people with TSRK out of shield by guessing right about them throwing out meaty attacks to catch the two-frame instead of grabbing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[L9999]

I like ESAM's video and feel for Nakat and MVD, but Vinnie used his problem as an excuse to continue/perpetuate drama. I can't feel especially sorry for the guy when he acts unsportsmanlike at Dismantle 2 towards Ally. While I'm sure he's nice IRL, he's not the most mature person (...He put off school for a video game...) and it shows in that Twitlonger post :/

Mostly a sensitive person thing. They don't take sad news or obstacles very well and even the smallest of tease makes them mad. And if they have an ill-feeling towards someone or something, it lasts a long time. And yes, his decision was not the best, but whatever, it happened and damage is already done.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Who does MK lose to, except for the obvious super-relevant characters? I've been thinking about it recently, and I don't really know his matchup spread that well. Does he get beaten by any non-top-tiers, or is he even at worst with most of the high and lower tiers?

Greninja is a notable one who bests him in neutral and also doesn't really care for Shuttle Loop.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mostly a sensitive person thing. They don't take sad news or obstacles very well and even the smallest of tease makes them mad. And if they have an ill-feeling towards someone or something, it lasts a long time. And yes, his decision was not the best, but whatever, it happened and damage is already done.

Sounds like the Ally and Vinnie thing tbh. Didn't Ally say something about his face, and Vinnie now hates him, or something?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can't I call for nerfs and put in time on matchups? That's what I've been doing so far anyways. I would hate it if my utilt randomly killed at 40% or something.

Thanks to @LordWilliam1234 and co., there are at least some easy references for safety on shield at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?pref=2&pli=1&sle=true#

You can already formulate strategies just from that data alone.

Complaining is is whining about something, but not wanting to do anything about it. Hence, don't complain.

You can be as annoyed as you want with a character, but try to learn everything you can before giving up and complaining. That's what I try to stick to.

 

[Nu~]

Sounds like the Ally and Vinnie thing tbh. Didn't Ally say something about his face, and Vinnie now hates him, or something?

Ally said nothing about his face.

 

[Ffamran]

I can hardly think of a "bad" dtilt in this game, they're almost always a character's best ground poke (, // etc.) or combo starter outside of grabs ( and again, , (okay so it's probably actually utilt that's his best but dtilt is easier to land), , ), and when it's not either it usually is the "power" option complimenting a faster ftilt ().


The only characters that really don't have much use for their dtilts are Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sheik and Sonic, and that's mainly because their gameplan rarely involves careful ground spacing (or in Sheik's case, it's usefulness overlaps with other easier to use tilts).

Goddammit... I meant Dair instead of Dtilt.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sounds like the Ally and Vinnie thing tbh. Didn't Ally say something about his face, and Vinnie now hates him, or something?

Some people were making fun of him for the Mexico fiasco. It went on for quite a while.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Steer away from needless Vinnie drama, let's stay on topic people ~

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is a notable one who bests him in neutral and also doesn't really care for Shuttle Loop.

That said once the hitstun cancel is patched out (it's going to happen at some point. I think) the MU would probably become even since MK's advantaged and disadvantaged states are both better than Greninja's and neither of them can edgeguard the other very well due to how they can mix-up their recoveries.

Greninja's stronger neutral does mean that he'll be winning neutral more often than MK though which is pretty important. Greninja also has higher damage output if I remember correctly.