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Challenger Approaching!!! ROY!! .PAC UP!!!! 12/7/09 at 3:36 AM EST

MK26

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No-growth tips sound broken, especially no-growth tips that can combo into super-powered blade hits at high percentages.

Also, is it in any way possible to create a version of B+ that is the same in every way to vB except with the addition of Roy? And make it so Roy sucks, except that he's an MK counter?
 

goodoldganon

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Roy can Ken Combo...oh the humanity of it all. And the sweet sweet irony.

I'll address the U-tilt speed later, I'm going out soon. I'm also considering removing the N-air tip, it seems to get more in the way of it is supposed to do which is an approach move to start combos. Guess it's up to you guys.

If I just transfered Roy over to vBrawl (lower his grav though) he'd probably suck cause of the no hitstun thing. He'd have range and priority unlike Falcon, but I'm sure he would still be very poor.
 

TLMSheikant

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No growth tips would be ideal and the best that can be done. Its kinda ridiculous landing them and the opponent goes very far to the other direction. Fsmash needs to lag less and have the fire effect...UpB is fine as it is imo. Utilt needs to be faster. Im loving the pummels XD. :toonlink:
 

RyuReiatsu

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MookieRah said:
He's way, way, way more fun than Marth. **** that dude.
I dislike Marth in Brawl+, but haven't tried Roy yet.
I can't for now, since the 2 TVs have been used since this very morning.

Anyways, from what I see.. He's about as quick as Marth, but looks pretty much more of a combo beast. Do you know what this means?

CHANGE MARTH!
:laugh:

I just wish they'd change him a bit, I want his combo potential back. :urg:

In all seriousness, I'll have to try him. He does seem much more fun than the blue tiara gangster prince.
 

MookieRah

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No-growth tips sound broken, especially no-growth tips that can combo into super-powered blade hits at high percentages.
Well ya know, Fox can drill to upsmash and that combos regardless of percent and that's way easier to land than a tip to smash with Roy.
I'm also considering removing the N-air tip, it seems to get more in the way of it is supposed to do which is an approach move to start combos.
I disagree. It only gets in the way cause we aren't good with Roy yet. Also, it will be easier to land the tip on purpose once the hitbox changes come around. I would say it's way too early to toss it out just yet, as it is amazing when done purposefully.
 

matt4300

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Ok, newest update did alot of good. love the flame bair spike so cool.

One thing that is just dumb is the tipped uair... how many spikes does he need. Not only that but of all the matches I have been playing I have gotten like 3 untiped uair... so its hardley a combo move now at all with the spikeing. Wich sucks because this what roys combo move man.
 

VietGeek

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MookieRah

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One thing that is just dumb is the tipped uair... how many spikes does he need.
Yeah, the way we wanted it to function was simply to pull people down into a smash or an utilt. As it functions now it is too strong and has way too much growth so it ends up spiking people to the ground. I'm thinking that the tip effects should have no growth that this point, and find a good base where it's nice and yummy and leave it as that. People might think a move with set knockback that sets Roy up is too good, but it will such a weak hit that I'm thinking that the opponent will be able to dodge and avoid obvious setups. Also, it's fairly easy not to tip with it, the only problem is that it's hard not to tip from the ground.
 

matt4300

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I would rather his uair be a pillar combo move like it should be because it almost always tips and I dont always want to pull the char down.
 

VietGeek

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I know right? But he looks so cumbersome.

However, that's not the point because I'm minutes away from playing Rarth.

However...I might as well post my concern before people get to comfortable with Rarth here.

I'm hearing a lot about Rarth being focused on juggling and ****. Plus with these apprently 1000 different spikes...I'm concerned on individuality.

As I said before, Roy wasn't amazing in Melee and thus if he's going to be in Brawl+ at all, he will need to be 'different' to be viable. This happened, the changelog proves it, Rarth is good.

But...again...individuality. Currently, the current Roy and Marth+ share the same appeal...quick moves, powerful attacks if sweetspotted...and one of the nastiest juggle games in the entirety of Brawl+. Hell, Marth's juggle game was nasty in Melee too, but horizontal combos were better since they set-up for easier kills and the lovely edgeguard.

Marth+'s game will be in his juggling. His fair is already nerfed and I'm not happy with the fact that staple combos at lower percents won't even work now because fair doesn't send people into tumble now. In fact, Marth+'s horizontal game is weak in comparison to everyone else. In fact, I would say Dancing Blade makes up MOST of his 'horizontal combo ability.'

Now Roy is back, and he boasts juggling, more damage than Marth basically (DB isn't nerfed yet, but we'll see) and the ability for early spikes and...more juggling.

This is a problem in my opinion. You have two characters trying to occupy the same niche in the potential metagame. I never thought I'd be afraid of change since I've been an advocate of this project since Phantom Wings released Melee Airdodge 1.0...but at this rate I feel like there would be no reason to use one over the other aside from preference...and what seems to be Roy being superior atm (FE cast having fail recoveries is tradition so I won't take that into account).

I think if Roy would boast a superior horizontal game, and Marth retains his juggling, there would be reason to use one over the other. This leaves the problem of Ike who does boast good horizontal comboing and gets the job (kills) done quick...

I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid. I think I found the Roy texture I like and I'll give him a try. Maybe my opinions will change when I experience him myself.
 

MookieRah

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I would rather his uair be a pillar combo move like it should be because it almost always tips and I dont always want to pull the char down.
Learn to space and you don't have that problem. Honestly, out of all the moves it's the easiest (at least for me) to use uair to it's fullest. It's easy to space for a tip, and to not tip all you have to do is not go for max range. The only problem with the tip is that it's hard not to tip with it when the person is on the ground, and I really don't think that is what you are talking about.

When the uair tip is working appropriately it will pull characters in to finish with a ground attack. Then you can juggle to your hearts content and pull them in for the kill.
But...again...individuality.
Roy is so very, very different. Also, talking of tips and stuff, the tip won't be the same by the time it's over. Roy's tip will be much more broad and easier to land when we get everything up and running. As far as juggling goes, Roy does it very different than Marth. Roy had a great juggle game with his uairs in melee, he has a good juggle with his uair in B+. His utilt is not a juggle move, it's more of a KO move. The only other thing that juggles is dtilt, which is working very well and VERY differently than Marth.

This is a problem in my opinion. You have two characters trying to occupy the same niche in the potential metagame.
I'd say no to that. Roy is more like Marth on crack and all his attacks have different mechanics. They have similar roles, but Roy trades defense in favor of offense. He has ridiculous combos, lots of gimp and early KO potential, but he gets combo ***** and gimped a lot too. You also have to keep in mind that he is based off his Melee counterpart, which ALSO served the same niche as Marth, except he was different but worse. So yeah, they are very similar in that regard, but they play VERY differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.
 

GirugaMarc

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I hope a code that will replace a Marth costume with Roy will be released soon.

I'd like to see how Roy compares to Marth in an actual match between the two
 

5ive

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I've played around with this for about 10 minutes already, and something I've noticed is that it's incredibly creepy hearing Marth's moans while playing as Roy.

I know, we may not be able to get Roy's voice back, but could Marth's voice at least be silent in the future? And by this, I don't want comebacks saying "lower your volume," or "mute your TV". I want serious responses.
 

VietGeek

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Alright. Well, I played him...

he was interesting.

But everytime fsmash tipped and and it sucked them in:

"kk going the wrong way please change directions"

Otherwise it seems the basework is there and the potential is good. There has been talk about changing hitbox sizes and stuff so it's all good, because right now I'm sending people the opposite way of where I want them to go half of the time, the other half is them dying from the fsmash that is so manageable to land right now it's lol.

EDIT: Also...yeah at the moment DED is whackass lol. I mean LOL wow. I suggest you give the ridiculous properties to his 4th hitboxes instead of his third ones. Why? Because DED is spammable and with all the DI and SDI in the world, you hope you can get out of the 4th one's way.

Marth's Brawl DB 4th hit up is a vertical kill move that rarely ever hits. With Roy, I suggest you make Roy's DED U4 spike instead of the third one (you could then allow the spike to be a little stronger),

and allow DED N4 to take the role of the current third one. I think the third guaranteed hit is stronger than the 4th hit "that you might get if for some weird reason you wanna edgeguard with DED."

That's just my .02 cents atm.
 

leafgreen386

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MookieRah said:
The change to the bair spike was make it have more base but less growth, so it could be a good early gimp move, and at high percents bair would probably kill better due to it's massive power. I think it should stay meteor, cause I fear for Bowser and DK players.
The problem is a weak spike that is meteor cancelable is essentially... worthless as a spike at all. I'd much rather see it as something that won't outright kill them but WILL have consistent KB and stun, helping you gimp them but not outright killing until very high percents due to a low growth.

For fsmash, are you asking for 4-5 less winddown? I think that's what you are asking for. I don't think you would want to tip with it, ever, although it might be to bad of a mistake with how it currently is set. I would assume that your opponent would be able to hit you before Roy recovered from it from a tipped fsmash. I like how it has a built in weakness to be honest though, it helps balance it.
Yes, I'm asking for 4-5 frames less winddown. Right now, the trajectory that the tipped fsmash sends you is hot, and could set up for brilliant techchases, but it's just a little bit too laggy to pull it off. Dropping 4-5 frames of lag off of it would still leave it very punishable on whiff, but open up the avenue of techchasing for him.

Good to see that you like the new fair tip, but if you're saying it has too much growth I'll need to look into dropping it. Gonna play for a bit with it first, though, to get a feel for how much it needs to be dropped.

If uair is still acting up, I'll try working on that some, too. I'll have to see how the current one plays out, though.

Also, for anyone who wants to try to play around with marth's voice pitch (and also his sword sound pitch, since it will affect everything, so we get to kill two birds with one stone on this one, differentiating both his voice and sword slash sounds), try and find that old voice pitch mod that was going to be used to counteract the effects of the size mod. It's currently a universal mod, but it should be able to be made to be character specific, meaning it could only apply to roy if it works out.
 

5ive

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Also, for anyone who wants to try to play around with marth's voice pitch (and also his sword sound pitch, since it will affect everything, so we get to kill two birds with one stone on this one, differentiating both his voice and sword slash sounds), try and find that old voice pitch mod that was going to be used to counteract the effects of the size mod. It's currently a universal mod, but it should be able to be made to be character specific, meaning it could only apply to roy if it works out.
I'm on it :D

Edit: Alright, I've recorded Marth from Brawl onto my capture card along with Roy clips in Melee. The thing is, Roy's voice isn't deep at all.
I'm doing the pitching on Sony Vegas, so it isn't very precise. When I press the "minus" key once, to go deeper, the voice is already too deep.

Looks like someone with audacity has to do this.
 

bajisci

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If you are going to slow down his utilt taht drastically i think it should have more KBG.

edit: right now utilt kills roy at 140 ish with di on FD, it should kille at like 120 if it sgoing to be that mindnumbingly slow=/
 

MookieRah

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OK, I just got through playing for a solid hour against my boy Clink (a Socal smasher dude that moved out here) and I have to say that Roy is definitely not broken, and is actually *seemingly* pretty balanced. He gets gimped like crazy, but gimps like crazy back. It's a lot of fun, and Clink says it's already his favorite character to play against because of how intense the matches are. I plan on getting matches recorded tomorrow.

Some feedback on the moveset:

I actually really like the uair tip, even though it isn't functioning as I planned it too. Roy's uair juggle is quite impeded by the brawl airdodge so it's not nearly as good as it was. Having a tip that brings them down disorients my opponent and I can capitalize on it. It's a lot of fun. It still has too much growth though, cause it shouldn't be something that could actually kill someone.

I will reiterate that Fair is OMFG delicious now. Is really usable, but it doesn't eclipse the nair, leaving nair still the overall aerial of choice.

All tips need less growth, another reiteration there.

Gog, my friend, the tip of nair is delicious. It doesn't need to be dropped as it helps out tremendously. Even when I accidently tipped it still helped out.

Ftilt will be so ****ed amazing when we make the tip larger, cause when I tip it good things happen.

Fsmash having 4-5 less frames on wind down is a good idea, cause it's really slow. Seeing how slow the actual attack part is, having less windd own wouldn't hurt. I think the slowness during the attack helps balance it, cause it gives my opponent a chance to DI it. I also like the slowness, cause as I've said before it stays out longer and is easier to punish techs.

Dash attack needs way less base KB and a more vertical trajectory. Right now, even at low percents, they are flung way behind me. If it could set up into something it'd be a great move, as I've been able to land it fairly often. I love the tip on this badboy too, it's like a weakened Marth tip.

If you are going to slow down his utilt taht drastically i think it should have more KBG.
Utilt needs to be faster, I already mentioned that before. That's my fault :-P. It will be sped up and probably kept the same it is now in every other regard.

EDIT: Also...yeah at the moment DED is whackass lol.
The third hit isn't that strong really, and the only way to really hit with the 4th hits is to do 3rd hit up then whatever. I honestly don't think it's broken in any way, it's just really good for punishing spot dodges and what not. It functioned more or less just like that in Melee and it wasn't a problem :-P. Speaking of 3rd hit up, the spike effect on it is trash, so in other words it feels just like Melee XD. I was trying for it during my matches, landed it 3 times, and not a single time did the spike kill anyone. It needs more power, cause it is so hard to land and it should at least have a good chance of a KO.

I think Roy is very close to where he should be right now.
 

VietGeek

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The third hit isn't that strong really, and the only way to really hit with the 4th hits is to do 3rd hit up then whatever. I honestly don't think it's broken in any way, it's just really good for punishing spot dodges and what not. It functioned more or less just like that in Melee and it wasn't a problem :-P. Speaking of 3rd hit up, the spike effect on it is trash, so in other words it feels just like Melee XD. I was trying for it during my matches, landed it 3 times, and not a single time did the spike kill anyone. It needs more power, cause it is so hard to land and it should at least have a good chance of a KO.
My mistake Mookie, I meant whackass in a bad way. =P It kinda feels weird especially since unlike Melee, there's no 'umph' to the hit until the finale hits (save for DED/DB D3 but those don't look to be too useful aside from shieldstabbing atm). I'm just thinking my suggestion might make the DED...fit more into the game.

Also have you thought of making the jabs having the ftilt pull in and making ftilt a good kill move instead? Just throwing this out there since you said jab needs a use a while back. I'm sure you could do this and would have to speed up jab VERY little.

But atm, I'm liking him. He still doesn't quite 'feel' right, but I'll grow to like him I'm sure.

Finally, how exactly is shieldstun calculated in this game? Because while Roy apparently sports a "bad" tip, it probably has the shieldstun of Marth, no?

...Why isnt Sethlon or NEO posting in this thread. once again. Someone show this to them. LOL.
NEO loves Marth more in Brawl. lol
 

Dark Sonic

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@VietGeek, the third hit spiking on DED is to keep it more true to it's melee counterpart. The third hit (neutral) being strong is also another trait of the melee counterpart. As a whole DED was supposed to be slowed down and it wasn't, which is what's causing it to feel so ackward. The melee DED was actually a decent move (too much growth on the second hit, but hey it wasn't perfect), and it'd be cool if we could replicate it (and yes, the spike should indeed be made stronger).

What I think will make DED function more like it's melee counterpart:

Add a little more base knockback to the first and second hits (make the first fixed knockback) to allow it to still combo even after we slow them down. Second hit have enough base to cause tumble.

Add a little bit of growth to the second hit so that it doesn't auto combo into the third at high percentages (and by high I mean like 100%+ kinda high)

Add a little more base and a substantial amount of growth to the third hit (neutral), so that at very low percentages it can combo into the fourth, but at high percentages (where the second hit doesn't link directly to it all the time) it can kill an average weight opponent assuming no DI.

Add more base and more growth to the third hit (up) to make the spike more powerful if you happen to get it near the edge, and to also make it better at poping opponents off the ground.

Add a lot more base and growth to the fourth hit (up and neutral versions), to make them better at killing (neutral should be as strong as an uncharged f-smash. Up should be kill 30-40% later. Don't forget that we're slowing this **** down)

Things to make small improvements on the melee DED

Third hit (up) should have a little less lag (when you don't plan on doing the next hit) so that you can follow up better (possibly tech chase?)

Thoughts?

edit: Actually, after just playing the most recent one, the base for the third hit of DB is too high. At very low percents (0-20ish) it should combo into the fourth hit. The growth is also much, much too low. Even at 100% it's sending people pretty much nowhere. For now it's okay I guess, but it'd be very simple to differentiate this move from Marth just by following melee Roy's example.
 

TLMSheikant

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I like his ftilt dont change it :(. Give his jab a use and keep the current ftilt. Its too awesome to go...:(. Thats why ur gonna be in my ignore list viet for suggesting the change to ftilt.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Did you change his counter to do 1.5 times the damage of the attack it counters? That's how Roy's couner worked in Melee, and that was his best move to punish predictability.
 

VietGeek

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Did you change his counter to do 1.5 times the damage of the attack it counters? That's how Roy's couner worked in Melee, and that was his best move to punish predictability.
...1.5 was also BROKEN. The multiplier was just whack. The only thing that offset that was the fact that the frame window for a counterattack was extremely little. We shouldn't bring everything from Melee back, we should bring the ideas back, not the execution, if you know what I mean.

I would suggest 1.15 so Roy could also symbolically bridge the FE trio and to keep the ratios possibly somewhat consistent.

Or something like 1.3 at most imo. Especially if there's no way to change the which frames are counter frames and which are cooldowns.

roys recovery sux too hard
Wrong sir. Roy's recovery can NEVER suck TOO HARD. o_O

I like his ftilt dont change it :(. Give his jab a use and keep the current ftilt. Its too awesome to go...:(. Thats why ur gonna be in my ignore list viet for suggesting the change to ftilt.
No u. You're gonna be on MY ignore list first.
 

MookieRah

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@Dark Sonic
I think replicating Roy's DED is a good idea, although I disagree with the second hit preventing the third hit from working at high percents. Everything else you said I agree with though.
Roy apparently sports a "bad" tip, it probably has the shieldstun of Marth, no?
His tip isn't bad, actually his tip is weaker than Marth's non tips. Granted, right now I think they are too strong and need fine-tuning. There is no way it has the shieldstun of a Marth tip though, as Marth tips have significantly more knockback and damage than Roy's tips. More than likely when you get a lot of shield stun, Roy is landing a blade hit that just looks like a tip. This will be more easily distinguished when we change up the hitboxes.
roys recovery sux too hard
DI up and be careful of gimps and you can survive pretty well. DI is SOOOO important for characters with ****ty recoveries. stay alive for much longer than I should have against Clink, that is if he didn't gimp me, due to DI'ing well. It does kinda suck that one of Roy's best moves, dtilt, often lends itself to ****ty *** DI.
 

Dark Sonic

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...1.5 was also BROKEN. The multiplier was just whack. The only thing that offset that was the fact that the frame window for a counterattack was extremely little. We shouldn't bring everything from Melee back, we should bring the ideas back, not the execution, if you know what I mean.

I would suggest 1.15 so Roy could also symbolically bridge the FE trio and to keep the ratios possibly somewhat consistent.

Or something like 1.3 at most imo. Especially if there's no way to change the which frames are counter frames and which are cooldowns.
Umm....that's what we were gonna do. Roy's counter was hot in melee as it is the very imbodiment of "high risk, high reward." Even with that multiplier, Marth's counter was still considered the better one because of the longer counter frames, and it will be the same case in brawl+.

If we can lower the counter frames then I'm all for a 1.4 multiplier (and a slightly faster activation time than melee, but same overall window). Roy isn't the bridge between Marth and Ike, he's a unique character that is all about putting everything into his offense (falco style). A drastic counter like this would fit perfectly for him imo.

@Mookie, well that's mostly to keep the third hit from being broken. If the second combo'd into it at all percents (with the third hit now being a decent kill move at such percentages), then we'd have the same issue that we had with Marth's DB.
 

goodoldganon

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I was thinking of interesting things to do to Roy that would truly separate him from everyone else, and what about a get up attack that sent the opponent down? Like a table turner almost?
 

MdrnDayMercutio

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I haven't played it yet cause my Wii hates me but don't change Dair just yet. Maybe make it harder to spike/meteor with it like it was in Melee(if you can do that, hilt spike thing).

And make the kb on the Uair lower. It seems like the original idea was if you spaced perfect you were rewarded by being able to fastfall into an Utilt. So maybe you just need to drop the knockback a ton on it. It shouldn't be able to "spike" for the kill but to set up Utilt, Nair, Fair and such. It sounds like an amazing idea.

I'm DYING to try this stuff out.
 

MookieRah

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Wha, no dair spike? It's yummy and I can attest to it not being broke. I can see why people aren't into uair (it's also really good as is though).

Besides, getup attacks are very situational, and due to the lag it has on the attack the only way that it would work as a table turner is if the knockback was insane. I don't think that is a good idea.

Maybe make it harder to spike/meteor with it like it was in Melee(if you can do that, hilt spike thing).
The hilt spike was useless in melee, and it would be not so great in B+. The dair currently works fine, as the spike is only moderately strong and I'm pretty sure it's a meteor, so you can meteor cancel it. It also functions like it did in melee on the tips, which there are two tip hitboxes for this attack, so it often knocks the opponent upwards instead. I really don't see why it needs to be changed, or how it's un-Roy like.
And make the kb on the Uair lower. It seems like the original idea was if you spaced perfect you were rewarded by being able to fastfall into an Utilt. So maybe you just need to drop the knockback a ton on it. It shouldn't be able to "spike" for the kill but to set up Utilt, Nair, Fair and such. It sounds like an amazing idea.
That was the original plan, but it has yet to be implmented that way yet. I'd like for it to have a chance at what it was originally designed to do (which would also include a larger tip hitbox) before we scrap it. The only reason why people dislike it is cause Roy has a ton of spikes and so far it has acted more like a spike than a simple "pull down to smash or tilt" move. Either that or they think it's un-Roy like, even though it's consistent with the mechanic we gave him.
 

cman

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Why is having so many spikes a bad thing? It would certainly make him unique from marth. I'm just wondering, since i haven't actually tried out roy yet
 

ConnorTheKid

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sooooo I downloaded the GCT and everything else provided in the first post...but I still don't have Roy! =/ can anyone help me out?
 

MdrnDayMercutio

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I wasn't actually complaining just making a joke. :(

The Tip pulling in is brilliant though. It makes for a really interesting twist on Roy. Gog, that really was a great idea.

Mookie or someone needs to throw up some vids not that things are getting close to how they're supposed to be. I really wanna see this since I can't play it. Someone should pull NinjaLink in here.

(hopes he does a name search)
 
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