Chain throwing the spacies

[Littlebear]

I know there's probably tons of guides out there on this, but I haven't found one that works. I tried searching the boards but couldn't find anything. Does anybody have a definitive guide on chain throwing Fox and Falco? It seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to find since it seems so important. I can delete this post if it's already been explained on another, I just can't find it.

Also, do they get chain grabbed in the same way? Like the same percentages for each?

 

[Thejurok]

I've been using this:

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper

Like you, I was looking for a decision tree like this. I don't know if it's 100% accurate but it seems pretty good. The only thing that seems kind of hard is the shffl'd up airs to regrabs.

 

[Littlebear]

I have been using this a bit, although I have trouble getting that 35~ uair. Does this work for Falco as well?

edit: Noticed you said you also have trouble with those uairs. I'm glad I'm not alone haha.

 

[Beat!]

The shffl uair -> regrab can be tricky to land at lower percents (~35-40-ish). If you're having issues with it then you can do uptilt -> regrab up to 40-ish % instead. It'll do the trick like 99% of the time, but it's a little more susceptible to DI shenanigans and you have to make sure you don't get that weird hitbox that sends 'em to the side.

The chaingrab on Falco is the same step-by-step process but with slightly different (read: higher) number cut-offs. Add around 5 percents to the lower and upper boundaries of each step and you should be fine. The only real difference between the two is that you can't regrab Falco after an upthrow at 0% if he DIs behind you.

Regarding the accuracy of this guide, it's not AR/TAS-tested, but it's been developed over the course of several years by Armada, followed by leffen, followed by me, so the numbers are pretty well-determined (and I use the "~" sign to denote approximations). Kadano mentioned at one point that he was going to test the entire CG but I don't think he ever got around to it.

The only potential countermeasure by Fox that I can think of is to SDI the uair upwards in order to avoid the regrab, but I've yet to see it work against a properly executed uair->regrab. It definitely makes the timing a lot stricter, though.

 

[Littlebear]

Thanks a bunch! Also I was a little confused on the hitboxes for the uptilt. I don't understand the mechanics on why it sends them up sometimes and why it takes them to the side other times. For example, in M2K's famous game 4 at ROM against Shiz, he takes Shiz's 3rd stock with a chain throw and then an uptilt to get him off of the stage for the Ken Combo. So it seems like he knew the tilt was going to do that. How can you determine where your uptilt will hit them? I'm not super familiar with hitboxes.

 

[$alsa]

a good thing to do would be to chain grab till they're around %50 ish and either uair or nair them, if your nair hits as a tipper you most likely hit them off stage a bit, this point you just need to push them to the point of no return. either crouch poke them till they can't make it back or hit sweet spot, or dair them.

 

[doublefelix921]

I'm having trouble at 17% doing the turnaround uptilt + regrab mentioned in that guide. I'm playing against a cpu fox who does no DI and usually techs. With no tech it's easy, but when he techs I can't get it. Is that section possible even with techs? Or should I pivot grab instead? (I didn't see that mentioned but I know it is useful here).

Also, this is very late, but there is a great image explaining the different types of uptilt on ssbwiki. It was very useful for me.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Up_tilt

Edit: Derp. I had fox at the wrong percent. I was supposed to be pivot-regrabbing at that point, not turnaround uptilting. 4am melee sessions FTL.

 

[FE_Hector]

He's never supposed to land, so you're messing up the regrab. Just grind it out. Also, Fox has this ridiculous thing where around 10% he can actually shine out of chaingrab with perfect timing. Leffen did this against M2K during the 6-0 at Pax, I'm fairly sure. It's possible to still manage a regrab, as M2K showed us, but you've gotta be careful.

 

[tauKhan]

If fox shines you out of cg it means you messed up, you can grab fox during his hitstun until the cg stops working. m2k doesn't execute everything perfectly, in fact he has struggled with his cgs lately.

 

[Bmacster]

Quick question guys, is it harder to back dash out of the u throw. Like they full away di behind you and you have to backdash is that a stricter input because i have trouble getting that dash for some reason?

 

[tauKhan]

Yes it is harder input than dashing forward. I suggest you read the guide by kadano at meleeitonme.com if you want to know the reasons in detail.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

TheJurok's chart is pretty solid, there's a couple things I'd change but they're very minor so I'll leave them alone. But for both fox/falco at around 55% if they DI away in either direction you get a free tipper Fmash that will most likely kill them unless they are godly and DI it right. if they use no DI then you have to take a step forward then Fmash to get the tipper. It's a great tool for getting the early kills.

 

[Hunybear]

The up-throw animation on fox ends on frame 33.
The up-throw animation on falco ends on frame 35
Up-tilt comes out frame 6 ( might be wrong) and is Interruptible on frame 32

 

[SSB Pride]

I've been using this:

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper

Like you, I was looking for a decision tree like this. I don't know if it's 100% accurate but it seems pretty good. The only thing that seems kind of hard is the shffl'd up airs to regrabs.

This is actually really useful, thank you

 

[Perfect_Deity]

I've been using this:

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper

Like you, I was looking for a decision tree like this. I don't know if it's 100% accurate but it seems pretty good. The only thing that seems kind of hard is the shffl'd up airs to regrabs.

can i please be email'd, dm'd, tagged in, literally anthing for a flaco version. need by the 12th tourney coming up